Transcript

Justin McMillen (00:00:00):

I am the experiment. You can write your own story, not stop trying and don't give into the fear. Alright, welcome. Thank you.

(00:00:15):

It's so good to have you here, Matt. We've been talking about this for a while.

Matt Williams (00:00:19):

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm humbled to be here and excited to get into it with you.

Justin McMillen (00:00:24):

Yeah, I got pretty inspired by you through, we're both fathers. Watching you become a father was in the moments before that and some of the conversations just, it struck a chord with me and I was like, I really want to capture this and what this guy's going through and how he's seeing things. Because I think if we consider that millions of people are going to be listening to this, no stress that there's a lot of fathers out there and I think you have insight through being a student, like you said around that. That could be really, really amazing to capture and really insightful. So that was the motivation to get you on here. We've never done anything like this before, but before we begin, I'm going to give a quick little read of your bio here. This is always something we do. So

Matt Williams (00:01:22):

Yeah, sorry to interrupt. I will say appreciate you having me on. Thank you and truly humbled to be here. And when you asked me originally, I was quite hesitant because of what I shared earlier, not active online, don't have any presence and consider myself the eternal student like I mentioned. And so when you asked me, Hey, would you consider coming on? I thought, well, who am I to share any of this stuff, right? But again, to your point, if it's helpful for any of the men or women out there that are on the journey, then I'm humble messenger, so to speak at best. So yeah, I appreciate you having me and looking forward to getting into it.

Justin McMillen (00:02:10):

I think probably a big part of what it drew me to you or attracted me to having you on here is the very things that you just mentioned. There's a saying that one of my teachers told me a long time ago, they said, if you see a Buddha by the road, kill it because a Buddha would be by the river. And I think there's a lot of false people out there that are proclaiming spirituality or awareness, and these are the folks that are pointing at themselves saying, look at me, and in all reality, the Buddha would be by the river or in your case, by the beach. Alright, so I'll respect that as we go through this. No thank you. In the space that you're coming from. So bio here real quick. Today's guest is Matt Williams, a former Wall Street Pro, turns solar entrepreneur and holistic dad. He spent years exploring meditation, embodied masculinity and what it means to fully show up for life. Recently, he and his wife welcomed a baby at home above the beach sparking reflections on how to fully support and show up for the sacred experience of those around him. In this episode, we will explore his journey from high finance to holistic living and what it really means for men to engage deeply in life's most meaningful moments.

Matt Williams (00:03:38):

That's pretty good. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:03:39):

Yeah. Okay. Is there anything you want me to change?

Matt Williams (00:03:41):

No, no, that's good. It's good. I like it.

Justin McMillen (00:03:45):

Former Wall Street Pro. What does it mean to be a Wall Street guy? What is it? Where can you

Matt Williams (00:03:53):

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean that in and of itself gives me a little bit of, makes me feel a little bit uneasy, but that term, just whatever, people in empty suits doing weird things on Wall Street. But for me, I spent almost 20 years in a seat that I loved. I was super passionate about it, loved the game. Not in this grandiose sort of self aggrandizing way, but I was like, I'm going to be a pro athlete. I'm going to be the best at this game. And I loved it. I breathed it all day every day. And I specifically was on the hedge fund side, so I worked at a commodities hedge fund and a long short equity fund. Was fortunate to have a couple amazing mentors. And so for me that was a big part of the journey, which was had this passion, this love for, again, I'll call it a game because it is I guess everything that we're doing here. But I loved it and wanted to hone my craft. So I was fortunate to work with some really super talented people that I learned from for years. So I never thought I was going to do anything different. I'm like, this is it. I worked an insane amount. It never felt like work. And so yeah, did that in two different seats over about a decade each. And so yeah, what does that mean? It's a lot of things. For me, it just meant kind of being in that ecosystem, which is massive. It's global. I mean, there's so many millions and millions of different permutations of what it means to be interfacing with global Wall Street, so to speak. But for me, it was investing, trading, looking at the world to a global macro lens, which that was the discipline that I came from. And trying to anticipate seeing what's going on in the world, politically, geopolitically, economically across different countries. And it was fun. It was a blast. I never thought I would do anything different.

Justin McMillen (00:06:08):

Yeah, it sounds incredible, honestly, the way you describe it. I mean, you can still feel the passion.

Matt Williams (00:06:12):

Yeah. It's there.

Justin McMillen (00:06:15):

Did you know, wanted to do that from a young age. When did you decide?

Matt Williams (00:06:18):

No, no, I had no idea. Honestly. I grew up what was then a small town, Lancaster, California. So LA County, high desert, small town. I mean less than a hundred thousand people now. It's a big commuter suburban town in la. But when I grew up, it was just small desert town, so most people never leave everybody jokes. It's kind of like, oh, it's like breaking bad. I'm like, yeah, kind of like that. It's not incorrect. But yeah, I was fortunate to have good people around me growing up, whereas a lot of people that I grew up with ended up in jail or dead or through, it's an interesting part of the state, feels like it's not part of Urban coastal California at all. So had good people around me that gave me some good guidance. I went to UCLA, studied engineering, and I'll never forget this. I met with a counselor and I told her, I don't know what I want to do with my life long term. And she's like, well, either and people do that, or you're on this path, so you just roll with it.

Justin McMillen (00:07:31):

YouJust try things.

Matt Williams (00:07:31):

Which to me sounded insane. I'm like, are you kidding me? I don't want to have an empty life experience. So fortunately when I look back, and we can talk more about this later, I don't want to go too deep down the rabbit hole, but when I look back, I've always had some guardian angels, people that I met that were really critical to my path. And so I'm always thinking about that now, how do I pay it forward to help other people? Because I've had so many people come in and I literally, I went to UCLA and I was working at a bar to pay my way through school, and a guy came in and he is like, Hey, you should look at this. He saw me reading a book about China. He's like, you should look at the London School of Economics. I went there, it's a great curriculum. One thing leads to another. And that's where I ended up for a summer program. Wow. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:08:18):

Wow. How does that, that's crazy. Yeah. Had that guy not come in that day.

Matt Williams (00:08:23):

Exactly. Was I not reading that book at that moment? And honestly, that's the through line for me across all of this is for a long time that was part of my life experience, but I didn't surrender to it. It's like I knew it was there, but it didn't lead me. Whereas now that's totally what leads me.

Justin McMillen (00:08:43):

When you say that was part of your life experience, are you talking about these synchronicities?

Matt Williams (00:08:47):

Exactly, yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:08:48):

And how would you describe that? What do you mean? What do I mean by synchronicity? How would you...

Matt Williams (00:08:58):

For me, it's a deeply spiritual question or conversation, and it's forced greater than my own humanity, my own intellectual plans or ideas or desires, and you can call it God source, whatever. For me, it's easier to refer to that energy as God. I'm always expressing gratitude for God's hand in my life. And that's what I see in moments like that. I'm just some random I college kid studying engineering from some, can I use colorful language, by the way, from some shit town in California, which I'm grateful for that experience, but I was at a bar and some guy comes in and I'm reading a book about the Chinese economy and what are the odds of that happening? Even me being at that restaurant was almost impossible. So that really blows me away. I stand in awe of that kind of thing. So yeah, it was part of my experience, but I didn't really honor it or look at it with reverence. I was like, oh, that's kind of a trip. But it wasn't like Now today I see, oh, that's exactly what, that's it. That's the path. So yeah, met him, went to the London school, and then while I was there, I was fortunate to meet a guy who was starting a firm in la coincidentally, and came back and helped him build the business. And it was off to the races for me. It was awesome. I had an incredible experience, loved every minute of it.

Justin McMillen (00:10:32):

Where were you based out of?

Matt Williams (00:10:34):

Los Angeles. Just LA proper

Justin McMillen (00:10:36):

La. Okay. And then for people who don't know, because a lot of people that are listening to this, there's different sections of Wall Street and you said you did commodities or?

Matt Williams (00:10:45):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:10:46):

Can you explain that really basically for people that are listening so they understand what that means?

Matt Williams (00:10:51):

Yeah, and back to your question, a minute ago I had this experience with the counselor, didn't know what I was supposed to do with my life, and then I felt this, there was a poll. I ended up reading, started reading the paper, and I would find myself in engineering classes, reading the Financial Times or the Wall Street Journal was like, Ooh, there's energy here for me. And so that one thing led to another, met this guy, I'm shortening the story quite a bit, but one thing led to another. So I was like, okay, there's something here for me. And when I came back to LA and started working with a guy who was a phenomenal friend, brother, and mentor of mine, it was like, oh my God, this is exactly what I'm supposed to do. I loved it because it's a constantly evolving puzzle, incredibly complex. You can never figure it out perfectly.

(00:11:43):

And I love to learn. I love learning about new things, new countries, new industries, new companies. Even seeing what you guys are doing here is amazing. Hats off to you, by the way. You and I have talked about it loosely being in the neighborhood together, but it's really awesome to see what you're doing. Thanks. To physically see it and shake hands with some of these people is awesome. So yeah, I loved it and knew this is it for me. This is what I'm going to do. But that experience for me was we traded commodities, so we really managed money for people, large institutions. We ended up starting a fund, a hedge fund effectively, and we would make bets on prices of everything from crude oil, natural gas, agricultural, commodities, base metals, precious metals, currencies, all the things. And informed not always perfectly, we made mistakes all the time. And that the market experience is what professionally and personally has given me a lot of humility, always like, we're going to be wrong. Often

(00:12:48):

I'm going to miss something all the time. So where am I wrong? What am I missing? That served me really well on my spiritual path as well. So yeah, we invested in these various markets, and that was early two thousands through the Chinese economic boom and in a big global boom and global growth across the world. And so it was a really fascinating time. I mean, even the financial crisis of oh eight, not that we were geniuses, but we felt a lot of that coming. So we were in a lot of these trades that were high profile, you would read about the news movies were made about them. And so for me, as a guy in his twenties, and I had a lot of responsibility that I probably shouldn't have just because I was hungry and willing to do whatever, and my mentor partner saw that and very grateful for him for rewarding that kind of grit and perseverance. But it was an amazing time for me.

Justin McMillen (00:13:44):

That's so cool. I'm fascinated by people that work in any kind of money, the industries of money, right? And I wonder how people get good at it. I think the common person thinks that it's about a hunger for money,

Matt Williams (00:14:02):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (00:14:02):

The way you're describing it is it's like a game with a scoreboard.

Matt Williams (00:14:05):

Exactly.

Justin McMillen (00:14:06):

Right? And so then I love how you said it's like something you could never solve. It's an enigma, which is, I feel similar to that because the space that I found myself in is human beings are the most complicated things ever to understand. And so one of the most complicated problems of human beings is something I'm interested in. And how do you solve it? Is it possible to solve it? It's so seductive to try to think about what am I missing and what could be done different? So I understand, I understand it, how much you mentioned, I wouldn't say intuition, although I think it evolves to intuition, but you mentioned these people in your life that show up and they're sort of watershed moments, so you don't even realize at the time, and then later you start to ride that you start to learn to read the omens and consider, did you find yourself, because my perception of you is that you're a pretty intuitive guy.

Matt Williams (00:15:07):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (00:15:08):

You were working in commodities where you, was intuition a part of? How much of it was your gut? Did you give store to that or was it all data all the time?

Matt Williams (00:15:16):

It was, I think for lack of experience early on, it was the latter. It was all data all the time. How can I read more? I mean, my relationships, romantic relationships at the time were terrible. I was like, I'm not hanging out with you on a school night. I got to read. I got to get smarter. That was all I did all day long later, having lived through, because I eventually moved over to a long short equity fund and again, had an incredible mentor. So post-crisis economy sort of ripping back, everything's rebuilding, recovering, and then we basically started investing in companies. So that was a big change for me, learning how to invest in public companies around the world, and also amazing experience. We crossed geographies, different industries, and then my prior experience informed a lot of that, looking at these big global trends ends.

(00:16:07):

But as I matured, I think I realized that I lived in the space of just idolizing the great investors of our era. They were all my heroes. When I left my first seat in 2010, 11, all I wanted to do was go to New York and work with the best. That was my mantra. I'm like, if I'm not doing this with this guy that I respect, which felt like it was sort of my own thing, I can control my own destiny. If I wasn't doing that, I'm going to go work for the best of the best. I want to sit next to the fucking all stars every day, and I don't care. And I sort of created this in my life. I was like, I don't give a shit how much I get paid. I'll fetch coffee for these guys every day so I can learn. And funny enough, I ended up doing that. A guy hired me. It wasn't his fault, but it was a small fund, and he didn't have a lot of money to pay me, and I was making coffee every morning. I was like, this is hilarious. I should have never spoken that.

Justin McMillen (00:17:03):

You made it happen.

Matt Williams (00:17:06):

But yeah, it was later I realized, wow, I think there's an experience that informs the intuition eventually. And then I just continue to hone that. Again, I'm not an expert in any of this. You'll probably hear me say that way too many times today. It's like, I'm just a student. I'm not the expert. I'm not pretending to be. I'm just learning. But I try to listen to that. I do now believe that that intuition is way more powerful than the intellectual understanding.

Justin McMillen (00:17:34):

Yea.

Matt Williams (00:17:34):

I lean on that, especially when things, these synchronicities happen in life. I mean, even where I ended up, I'll never forget this. I was in New York hustling, trying to get a seat at a couple of these big funds, and I had to go to the airport, this guy that I had known loosely 10 years prior. I said, Hey, are you around? I have a few minutes. It was pouring rain. We happened to meet on the street for 10 minutes on my way to the airport. And then he called me a couple months later and was like, Hey, I'm starting this new firm and I need somebody like you who's got entrepreneurial grit, who's been doing something a little bit outside the box. That was my thing. I was always in this world, but a little bit out of the mainstream

Justin McMillen (00:18:15):

Mhm

Matt Williams (00:18:16):

It was very gritty, entrepreneurial, starting something with a small group and how do we punch through and scale and create something awesome. And so fortunately he recognized that that's different. There's a lot of people that have gone through these very, you graduated from here and you went through this analyst program and you did these things. He recognized that and called me, and I was like, of course, this is exactly where I'm supposed to be. Then I spent about eight years with him.

Justin McMillen (00:18:45):

Was that New York?

Matt Williams (00:18:46):

No, that was back in la. Back in la. Yeah, he was in New York and came back to LA to start something. So it just brought me back home, which was really funny.

Justin McMillen (00:18:55):

Wow. And was that also public companies or was it commodity?

Matt Williams (00:18:58):

No, that was, yeah, so I transitioned from trading in these different markets and looking at the world to this kind of broad, global macro lens to zooming in and looking at specific companies.

Justin McMillen (00:19:09):

Lemme turn my phone off here. I'm breaking my own rules.

Matt Williams (00:19:18):

But yeah, it was a very much more narrow focus. Industries that were cyclical, old economy, manufacturing, everything, building materials, construction machinery across us, Western Europe, developed Asia. So it was fun. A lot of it was a decade of very intense learning for me, and I loved it.

Justin McMillen (00:19:44):

What do you think, and we'll get onto, there's so much stuff I want to talk to you about, but I'm curious because it seems like there's a recipe to being able to be good at all of that. And like you say, you're not the expert, and I totally honor that, but certainly working around mentors and people who are brilliant, you probably started to see what the ingredients or elements are that make up somebody who's really capable.

Matt Williams (00:20:12):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (00:20:13):

What would you say they are?

Matt Williams (00:20:17):

It's a good question. I mean, it's funny you brought this up a minute ago about sort of mainstream perception of people who are in this global Wall Street, if you will, around money. And I came to have a somewhat skeptical, maybe borderline jaded, although I promised myself I wanted to retain a zen beginner's mind, but I came to believe that it's really, really hard. That space to be really good at investing and being a shepherd of people's capital over long periods of time is really difficult. Even the guys that I admired and idolized, they would admit, like George Soros, I think he's one of the best money managers in modern human history. The guy would talk about in his early books, he was wrong more than 50% of the time. It's like, how do you make money if you're wrong? More than half the time, he was really good at managing risk, and when he was right, he made a lot, and when he was wrong, he lost little, right? And it's really tough. It's like that industry has accumulated every astrophysicist, people with incredibly smart, and there's so many different pieces along the spectrum. It's way too much to talk about today, but it's really difficult to see who's really good, who got lucky. You can be lucky for a decade if you just write a theme.

(00:21:40):

And again, I'm saying this with humility. I'm not a multi-billionaire today that made tons of money as a hedge fund manager. I was passionate. I loved the game and I was in it. So I say that with humility, but it's really tough. And to answer your question, I would always marvel at, we would raise capital from institutions and endowments, and these guys never asked the right questions. To me, the right question to ask somebody to figure out, is this guy good? It would be like, why are you doing this? Are you passionate about this? Or do you want to be rich and famous? And so that's what I think it is, at least for me, is there's, there's just a love for that thing. And I think that at least for me personally, maybe I have a little bit more of a romantic vision of life, and I want to be in that space. I want to be passionate and love what I'm doing for my life's work, if you will. But I think in my humble opinion, that's the foundation

Justin McMillen (00:22:37):

Passion.

Matt Williams (00:22:39):

And then it's like, yeah, the mentors are awesome. Maybe it's a direct mentor. Maybe it's a guy who wrote a bunch of books that you never meet truly. Maybe you just read. Maybe he's dead now. Who knows? Right? But there's a lot to learn, obviously from those who came before us.

Justin McMillen (00:22:52):

So based on what you're saying, I mean, I think I couldn't agree more around. I think that if you find that thing that, I was just talking to somebody else about this the other day, but if you find that thing that keeps you up late at night, that's stealing your sleep because you just can't stop and then wakes you up in the morning maybe before your alarm clock because you're just totally into it, even when your body's wearing down. But it's like there's something a force inside you when you find that thing that's like locking in the first major piece, right?

Matt Williams (00:23:23):

For sure.

Justin McMillen (00:23:24):

Then you bring your natural talents to the table. Typically those things go hand in hand because if something's inspiring you, it's part of that. And then what else you said earlier that I think is a huge part of it, and also part of how you're built is remaining being a student. So it's finding that passion, the thing that's driving you, maintaining, being open to learning, and then putting yourself in a good position with people that you can learn from. And yeah, it's amazing. I wouldn't think when you said that asking the wrong questions, I didn't think that that would be the questions.

Matt Williams (00:24:00):

Yeah, I just would marvel at it because I sat in so many of these meetings in huge pools of capital, many, many billions of dollars. And to be fair, the people who are putting out those dollars are not always incentivized by the performance of the money managers that they're giving money to, which they should be. They should be getting paid more if their managers are doing well. So sometimes there's a little bit of a misalignment of incentives, but it was always like, I saw so many people who maybe they did great and they accumulated a ton of wealth, but they didn't love it. And so the writing's sort of on the wall. Eventually there's going to be a blowup. There's going to be melt down, the ego's going to take over. Whereas in my experience, the folks who were humble and just loved it, this infinitely evolving complex puzzle, they would win long term. So...

Justin McMillen (00:24:52):

That's so good. I've never heard anyone talk about money. I mean, people think Wolf of Wall Street and they think of hustle and just this kind of grimy, psychopathic, you break the mold in terms of what I think most people think of. So I love it. I think hopefully that somebody who's looking or thinking about getting in that game can hear what you're saying and take something from that.

Matt Williams (00:25:16):

Yeah, yeah. No, I always tell people, for me it was way more boring than what you would imagine. You walk into the office, it's just a bunch of people that are quiet looking, reading and studying. That's basically it.

(00:25:28):

And yeah, crazy stuff happens, but it's not, at least where I sat, it wasn't anything. People weren't doing lines of cocaine on the desk in the morning. It was just like a bunch of really smart, usually good people just trying to figure things out. So of course there's outliers, but it was quiet, it was cerebral, it was, you're again, just learning all the time, how do I ramp up and become a master, so to speak, or get my arms around this industry in a very short period of time so that we can understand it from the perspective of we might want to invest in this company for the next 10 years. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:26:08):

And so you've been a crazy student to global economics and markets, so how do you stop thinking about that? Do you still think about it?

Matt Williams (00:26:19):

I do. Yeah, definitely. And it's woven into what I'm doing now, which to your point earlier, I think that's what has been part of the magic for me is the passion is there, but then I've learned to surrender to some of these things that you mentioned a minute ago. It's just, it'll share more about what I'm working on now, but it's completely different for me now. Now it's sort sort of like I show up, okay, just tell me what to do, surrender to God, tell me what to do today.

(00:26:51):

And that's for me totally supercharged my professional life experience because it's no longer about my own is how much money am I going to make? How do I get this over here? It's like, okay, how can I use my skills in a way for the greater good and also hopefully enriches my own life and my family and legacy and all that? And I think really the further I've gone in my career, I try to surrender to that on a deep level, especially now it's like, okay, I have a sense for this new thing I want to do, but you got to tell me what to do. You got to tell me how to bring this to fruition. And so that's been incredibly powerful for me.

Justin McMillen (00:27:34):

That's the best place to work from. I tell people all the time, it's like, what are you doing? It's like I'm pondering right now. I'm thinking I'll find myself driving around or walking around, and I try to create as much space in my head as possible to find or feel or see the answer.

(00:27:51):

And sometimes it's not even that I ask a question. It's not even that. It's like, I need to know the answer to this. Is this a yes or no? It's like I can feel that there's something more for me to understand or no. So then it's be quiet and listen. And most often I call it the tea leaves. It's like you sort of throw all the things down on the table in front of you, all the life circumstance, the people, the little things you heard from this random person that's stuck in your head. You throw it on the table and you look at it and go, how does all this fit together to produce whatever I'm supposed to make

Matt Williams (00:28:24):

Yea, Totally.

Justin McMillen (00:28:25):

And that's the space I've been working from a while. I'm not always there, Matt, I pull out. But the best things happen in that space. Totally. It's like trying to find that common when you should be analytical and really frontal frontal cortex and executive functioning kind of mode versus intuitive. I heard this, and I'll let you, I want to hear more about what you have to say, but there's this really cool Ted talk from a woman named Amaryllis Fox about intuition.

(00:28:58):

So Amaryllis Fox married a Kennedy, and she wrote a book called Young and Undercover. She was the youngest ever non-official cover CIA operative super interesting. She went over to Burma when she was 18 and snuck information over the Burmese border into Thailand when on song Suki was being arrested. And she did this whole thing she shouldn't have done. And then because she pulled that off, it gave her this position at this CIA. So she had this crazy career at a young age, and she talks about intuition and the power of intuition in her life, and she is very analytical. So it was the first time I'd ever heard this explanation of it, and I loved it. And I still play with it all the time, especially I'm working with very analytical people and I'm trying to explain the necessity for me to find my intuition.

Matt Williams (00:29:49):

Sure.

Justin McMillen (00:29:49):

And so she says that we all have a super computer that is far more capable of finding the answers to things and anything mathematically our frontal cortex can do in this time constructed sort of deal. And so she said there's calculations going on behind the scenes and that it's so primal, it's so early. It's like stuff that goes back since the dawn of man and that it's so complex that it can't speak to us in language. It speaks to us in feeling. And so it gives you a pull. It says this way or that it predates language. And so if you think of it like you're super computer, so how do you allow all the information that your brain has been processing behind the scenes to pull together into a place to give you direction?

Matt Williams (00:30:44):

Yeah, there's a Taoist angle for me. The Do Ching is one of my, I read it like the Bible, and I grew up in a strong Christian Church, and I think there's so much wisdom in Christ's teachings, but the Dao De Jing is like, I have a therapist who I've been speaking to for six years every week. He's brilliant. And I've literally spent those six years studying the Dao with him. And I've run my current business based on those principles. I just read it, study it. I'm not the expert. La Lasu is, its supposed author, ancient Chinese philosophical text. Some people say it's thousands of years old prior to, I don't know, 1000, 2000 VCs, something like that. I'm probably getting a lot of this wrong, but it's a really beautiful philosophical framework for the world. That's how I look at it. It's not a religion.

(00:31:38):

Maybe again, some people would disagree with that. Taoism could be considered a religion, but the Dao De Jing is just an incredible, super simple text. Steven Mitchell, who's like this phenomenal poet, writer, translator, he's done a transliteration of the doda ching that's very poetic. It reads beautiful. I have it in my bag over there. I carry it with me everywhere I go. And the whole concept is basically not forcing anything. Some of my favorite passages are like men who wise men don't need to prove their point. Men who prove their point, who need to prove their point are not wise. So I also love David Hawkins. You probably hear me mention him a lot. He wrote Power versus Force and a bunch of other books. And it's all about this concept of inspired action. That's where the power is, the forcing based on our own intellectual understanding and logical interpretation. That's forceful. That's not where I want to be personally. You want to be in the power. And so the doubt, Ching speaks to this a lot. It's a surrendered way of living, but to your point, I look at it, you're sort of riding the waves. You're not forcing anything. You're waiting for some signs, some direction from, I'll say it's divinely inspired action. And then you go in and you utilize all of your intellectual firepower and all these things

(00:33:04):

Instead of leading from that place.

Justin McMillen (00:33:06):

Mhm

Matt Williams (00:33:06):

Again, I'm not a genius, but I'll say with a ton of humility, I've run a business built on that. Those principles, not perfectly, I've screwed up all the time, but it can work. And instead of trying to fight and convince people, shareholders, investors or anyone, it's like, Hey, I don't need to force anything here. Just stay focused on what our mission is, what our vision is. And often these problems that a lot of us spend a lot of energy getting spooled up around, they sort of take care of themselves. That's what I found.

Justin McMillen (00:33:41):

I want to hear more about... when did the Dao De Jing first appear to you? When was that?

Matt Williams (00:33:48):

It was about six

Justin McMillen (00:33:49):

Years ago. Six years ago, okay. Think you said that.

Matt Williams (00:33:51):

Yeah. It coincided with a massive life transformation for me.

Justin McMillen (00:33:56):

Yeah. So how about that? So you were doing the Wall Street thing. What was the catalyst for you to make that shift?

Matt Williams (00:34:03):

Yeah, so I was there again, thought that was it. It's all I'm going to do. I love it. I'm going to die doing this when I'm 90 or whatever. And then the fund that I was involved in, my mentor, he wasn't sure if he wanted to continue. So there was a discussion of winding this thing down and I was just like, okay, it's sort of phased out. And I was on basically sabbatical for about a year, just listening. I had just met my now wife, mother, my son, incredible woman. You know her well.

(00:34:37):

COVID, the whole craziness of the world started happening late 2019, 2020. So there was a lot of chaos in the world. And so we retreated to Venice Beach and just got into this little bungalow and we're sort of in a bubble. And through a series of coincidences, I met my now business partner who we co-own the company in Texas. And again, it was same thing was I visited this landfill site that they potentially wanted to turn into a solar project. Some guy got on the phone and said, Hey, you need to talk to this dude in Texas. I picked up the phone and we just hit it off, and I knew immediately there was something there. And so six months later, we moved to Texas. Him and I got in a room, we set up the business. We didn't know anything that was, it was just like I knew there was something there.

Justin McMillen (00:35:32):

We got to go back a little bit here though. That's crazy. So you meet April, did you sort of know that it was love, right away? I mean, it was pretty obvious?

Matt Williams (00:35:42):

A hundred percent love at first sight.

Justin McMillen (00:35:44):

And then you hunkered down like everyone, right, exactly. Were isolating, but just...

Matt Williams (00:35:48):

Yeah, we were in love. I felt guilty. People were like, oh God, this is shit show. I'm like, dude, I'm in love. The best time of my life. Seriously.

Justin McMillen (00:35:55):

Yeah,

Matt Williams (00:35:56):

I'm hanging out with my girl, and we're just having a blast every day.

Justin McMillen (00:35:59):

Probably helped too, not to feel, we went from to sabbatical, so I could imagine you'd be stir crazy. What am I going to do? But it's like we kind of have an excuse to just chill right now and figure out what's going to happen.

Matt Williams (00:36:08):

Yeah, exactly. So

Justin McMillen (00:36:09):

During that time where you even thinking start a business possibly, were you planning on going back into

Matt Williams (00:36:16):

Yeah, I thought for sure it was just going to, as it had always been the case for me, it would just meander back to this path that I was on.

(00:36:23):

And so when that transition came, I mean, it came fast and furious and I met this guy. We did a bunch of work. I was helping him remotely, and he was working on this big utility scale solar project in Texas. And I eventually got to the point where I was like, look, man, I don't know your business. I've been around these markets a lot and trading energy and power, but I can raise capital. I've done that. I've been in entrepreneurial seats my whole career. I know how to build stuff, and that gets me fired up. And so him and I connected, and it was a true cook it up in the basement and grind it out. And it was tough. So slow down a little bit, this whole thing came together. And again, it was almost like this was massively transformative for me, but there was a death of the old self because I was like this hedge fund guy, that's all I wanted to do is be one of the best hedge fund managers in the world. That was my mantra every day. And to me, going away from that was giving up. And that's really hard for me. I don't like to give up. I'm not always going to win, but I'm not going to fucking quit. And it felt like quitting, but I had to go through this whole process of that guy's dead.

(00:37:40):

He's dead, and you should just honor him and be grateful and move on. And that's what I tried to do. And so just stepped into this new seat where I was uncomfortable. I wasn't used to not knowing more than most people in the room when it came to my subject matter. And so I went into it and just, yeah, we started a business and that's a whole story, which been a lot of fun.

Justin McMillen (00:38:07):

So you're with April, I didn't understand. I think I just missed it,

Matt Williams (00:38:11):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (00:38:11):

You go from hunkered down with her, and then how does this phone call, were you being asked to get involved in something to help raise money? Or?

Matt Williams (00:38:20):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:38:21):

Okay.

Matt Williams (00:38:21):

I was asked to help with this project, and we went to visit the site and it was a landfill, and they wanted to turn it into a big solar project. And one of the guys, I'll remember vividly, I remember these moments, he picked up the phone and he was sort of standing in the dirt, and he called this guy and was like, Hey, I'm going to call this dude in Texas. And then he put me on the phone with him. And then that started this whole series of events.

Justin McMillen (00:38:50):

Solar power in Texas.

Matt Williams (00:38:53):

I mean, believe it or not, I mean, Texas is a massive market for renewable energy, wind and solar just because the geography, topography, a lot of sun resource, a lot of wind resource kind of controversial now. I mean, the way I look at energy is it shouldn't be a political hot button, but it is certain, and I try to look at these things very pragmatically. I don't get hyper political about any of this. I always feel like you can make an argument, a political argument for any of these things on either side. But energy has become highly politicized in my opinion, but it doesn't have to be solar makes great sense in some areas, in other areas, it doesn't make sense at all.

(00:39:32):

And so markets like Texas, there's a lot of land that's relatively cheap. There's great solar resource. Same thing with wind. There's an intermittency issue that you got to fix that hopefully now is being mitigated by battery energy storage. So yeah, it's a huge market, huge market. And we started the business around one big project there, and then it's expanded from there. We have a small team, multiple projects across the US and US territories, and it's been a humbling journey. And again, it was just a leveling up for me of this idea of surrender the way of the dao. It's like I just need to let go, and when I know I'm supposed to act, I'm going to serve this thing with tremendous passion, but I'm not going to intellectually drive where it's going.

Justin McMillen (00:40:21):

It sounds like you've found, it's another way to put it, and it's not as romantic, but it is almost like hyper efficiency. You've eliminated all the unnecessary bullshit that we all stress ourselves out over, and you're just focusing on what matters. That's incredibly powerful idea. So I think people are like, oh, but I should be stressing. I should be thinking about, I need to push. I got to get this done. This has to happen. Right? That's a hard thing.

Matt Williams (00:40:53):

Yeah. I mean, thank you for saying that. Guess. Yeah, that's probably true. Although I still make mistakes there every day this morning I did. But yeah, that idea of doing and non-doing, which the Dow ditching references a lot, which I believe is non-doing, is not sitting around doing it. Nothing doing is the forcing. Doing is the intellectual mind, this is what I should do. It's based on fear or lack or whatever pride ego that's doing, which I think is usually pretty counterproductive. The non-doing is like you're surrendering to a force. It's greater than your own humanity, and it's divinely inspired action, and we all know it, right? When we feel it, it's like you're fucking fired up. It doesn't feel like you're doing anything. You're just moving. Like you said, you wake up in the middle of the night and you're not tired. You're just in the flow.

Justin McMillen (00:41:47):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (00:41:47):

Like a flow state. And so I try to be in that non-doing space, but again, I fall short all the time.

Justin McMillen (00:41:57):

I hope that people listening to this could think about taking something like the do itching and applying it to business. I mean, I had no idea what we were going to talk about that today, but I think that's a powerful idea, and it resonates with me so much. I mean, I was just having a conversation earlier about ideas that are so powerful that they burn

Matt Williams (00:42:21):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (00:42:21):

You have to get them out.

New Speaker (00:42:23):

For sure. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:42:24):

One recently it was, it just stealing my sleep. It was like I didn't have a choice. I literally couldn't stop thinking about it until I got it all out of my head. And then now if I do think about it or I get involved in it, it fires me up and I can't sit still.

Matt Williams (00:42:41):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (00:42:42):

It's like those kinds of things are that's special. That's important. And maybe divine.

Matt Williams (00:42:49):

I certainly believe so. That's my view, for sure.

Justin McMillen (00:42:51):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (00:42:52):

It's going to come through and if we don't do anything, it'll come through somebody else.

Justin McMillen (00:42:55):

Yeah,

Matt Williams (00:42:55):

Right.

Justin McMillen (00:42:56):

It's also interesting to me to think about the non-doing. I mean, I know I don't know much about, I know a little bit about Taoism, but nothing like what, I haven't studied it. I think what's interesting also is human beings we're built for this. Our whole dopaminergic system is about drive, so we have the flesh that's sort of pushing us forward. That's how we got here. And then culturally, the idea of not doing anything and just letting things happen, you could sort of appear to be like, woo.

Matt Williams (00:43:26):

Yeah, exactly. Oh, totally.

Justin McMillen (00:43:28):

I'm just going to let the universe take. Exactly. Yeah, totally. And you mentioned surfing, and I think I've said this on one of the other episodes, so forgive me if it's, I'm repeating myself, but I think you and I both love the water. We have this common thing. No question, but I'm not a surfer. You're a surfer.

Matt Williams (00:43:51):

No, no, not really. No, not even pretend.

Justin McMillen (00:43:54):

You tried to be a surfer.

Matt Williams (00:43:54):

Yeah, I've tried.

Justin McMillen (00:43:55):

I watched you

Matt Williams (00:43:56):

Failed miserably.

Justin McMillen (00:43:57):

I think one day I said to April, like, oh, she's like, did Matt catch away? I was like, yeah. And she was like, really?

Matt Williams (00:44:01):

Exactly. There you go.

Justin McMillen (00:44:03):

I think he was there waiting to see if you were going to jump

Matt Williams (00:44:06):

In. The wife, he knows the truth for sure.

Justin McMillen (00:44:08):

They always do. But I think that, I was talking, I interview a lot of surfers. I work with a lot of surfers, and I think that surfing is actually a good way to look at this, and maybe you could relate it to the Dao. So it's like you have the energy, which is what's driving the surf to rise. You have your awareness, which is paying attention to what's happening out there. You have to be very tuned in to feel where to be and how to be there. And you certainly can't be like, I'm going to fucking do this how I want to do it. That's not

Matt Williams (00:44:44):

Totally

Justin McMillen (00:44:44):

To happen. Then you have the different waves, which are opportunities, and they're coming your way. And then you could choose or not choose to try to ride one. And then if you do, you need to be fit enough to ride it. So you have to have some skills. This is like you're saying, when you're ready to show up, you got to be ready. And then you eat shit all the time too. And then hopefully you're good enough to turn and manipulate your direction in life. So still the cosmic energy's there, but you're like, maybe you're beautiful when you do it, which is also another piece. It's actually, and maybe lastly, you're smiling and all these things coming together that you're experiencing joy while connected to the universe, but not every time you didn't get to choose. You're somewhat direction, but it's mostly pushing you. And I think that's how I've come to understand for myself the difference between, you can't just go out and sit in the waves and be like, whatever happens, and there is a surfing piece.

Matt Williams (00:45:52):

Yeah, definitely. No, I think it's a beautiful and totally appropriate metaphor. I totally agree. It's like you're, you're not sitting there cranking away all the time, going, going, going, going, going. You're waiting, and then the opportunity comes, and then you're relying on all of those things that you've accumulated through your life experience. So I totally believe that.

Justin McMillen (00:46:18):

That's amazing.

Matt Williams (00:46:19):

Yeah, I would highly recommend, again, humble observer, but for anyone listening, the Steven Mitchell translation of the Dao De Jing is unbelievable.

Justin McMillen (00:46:27):

Steven Mitchell.

Matt Williams (00:46:28):

Steven Mitchell. Yeah. It's like 70 chapters. Each chapter is literally a one page poem. It's super short. I mean, I carry it. I open it up, read one 10 line passage chapter, and absolutely life-changing, in my opinion.

Justin McMillen (00:46:46):

Do you talk to April about this stuff? All the time. Does she know how You

Matt Williams (00:46:51):

Knows where I sit? Yeah,

Justin McMillen (00:46:52):

Yeah,

Matt Williams (00:46:52):

Yeah. She knows where I sit.

Justin McMillen (00:46:55):

She's something else. She's got a lot of energy. Powerful woman. She's a powerhouse, for sure.

Matt Williams (00:47:00):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:47:01):

Yeah. Tell me about how you met her.

Matt Williams (00:47:04):

We met at a party that a mutual friend was having, and she walked in the door, and I immediately knew, I mean, literally when she walked in the door, I was like, this is it.

Justin McMillen (00:47:14):

Wow.

Matt Williams (00:47:17):

Yeah. I didn't take my, I was like, either she's going to get really annoyed and I'm going down in flames, or I'm locking this in today. That's so good. Yeah, it was awesome. I feel very lucky to have met somebody that way in an organic way that I've had. I feel like so many incredible teachers, spiritual teachers that have transformed my life experience and the way I look at the world. She's one of them. My business is one of them. So I feel very fortunate to have met her the way that I did.

Justin McMillen (00:47:57):

What was your impression of her when you first met her?

Matt Williams (00:48:01):

I mean, she was beautiful, of course, physically, but there was an essence. There was a knowing, not that it was about me, it was just there was a knowing. I never understood. I always wanted to believe that that was true. That could happen, that there's this love that's so profound that you can just know, but I didn't, was like, maybe not, I don't know. Maybe people are just crazy. And then when it happened to me, I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it now.

Justin McMillen (00:48:32):

Especially looking back. So you're carrying your baby and you have this life, and it's like, well, of course.

Matt Williams (00:48:38):

Exactly.

Justin McMillen (00:48:39):

This is the person that when I first met her, I was destined to do all of this stuff.

Matt Williams (00:48:43):

Totally.

Justin McMillen (00:48:44):

So you feel a weight of that in that moment.

Matt Williams (00:48:45):

Exactly. Yeah. And it's like, again, it wasn't us. It was a force greater than us for us to be there at that moment. It was almost an impossibility. I was supposed to be somewhere, I was supposed to go home. There was a snowstorm. This is a high desert, snowstorms. Every decade she was supposed to be somewhere else, totally out of the realm of possibility for us to be at this place at that moment. And so going back to the Dao, that's why I joke to myself, and sometimes in conversations with buddies, it's like all of the amazing things that have happened for me in my life have happened despite me trying to force things. Not because of it, not because of all the efforting. It's like all the great stuff has happened despite all that, my own planning and preparing, because even with all this, I'm still constantly thinking about stuff and trying to figure out what to do next. And all the great things happened despite all that.

Justin McMillen (00:49:43):

I love doing this. I love doing this show because I learn so much. And I know you said you're here as a student earlier.

Matt Williams (00:49:50):

I am, yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:49:50):

But oh my God, if you knew how important what you were saying is to my life right now, my brother and I, yeah. I can't wait until he listens to this. And when he listens to it, he'll hear me say that, then he'll know. Yeah, we give you an idea. So we made a strategic plan a couple years ago. We aimed for all these things. We wrote a detailed plan about how to get there. None of the way that we got there was how we planned. In fact, if you measured the plan based on our ability to execute around the tactics that we set failure, like big old F, however, we surpassed and beyond our dreams, even some of the priorities that we were focused on,

Matt Williams (00:50:41):

Okay.

Justin McMillen (00:50:42):

They happened in completely different ways. We were working really hard, forcing things to happen over here. And then they just appeared over here. Like we said, this is our target for this. And then randomly, this thing happens. A person shows up and the target gets resolved in a very short few moments when we spent hundreds of hours pushing on what we thought was the right way.

Matt Williams (00:51:03):

Right

Justin McMillen (00:51:04):

This is such a challenging thing as a business to try to think about how do you not, I think, is it control you think?

Matt Williams (00:51:14):

IMhm.

Justin McMillen (00:51:14):

That what it is you think we all want? You think that's what, not you, because you're not living in this way, but what do you think? It's control that most people...

Matt Williams (00:51:22):

For me, and again, I do this still every day, despite my commitment to live over here, I still fall short every day. And for me, a perception, it's a false perception of control. It's like I think that I'm in control, but I think you're right. It's this like, oh, even for me, it's like I'll surrender. I go through that process. Awesome. Things start happening. I love what you just shared, by the way. That's amazing. Congrats. That's the coolest shit to me. That's what happens over and over again in life. It's different from what our own planning self had in mind, but for me, it's a perceived control that isn't even real to begin with, you know?

Justin McMillen (00:52:06):

Yeah. I think I've been obsessed with this idea for a long time, but not in the same place as you in terms of how you're relating to it. I would like to be more in that place, but I think about control and I think about fear because I think it starts with fear. So being afraid, then it's like, okay, I need to control my environment. And then you start digging in further, and then it becomes force, and then that's the antithesis of what you're talking about, which is flow. And the last thing you want to do when things are unknown is let go.

Matt Williams (00:52:42):

Totally. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:52:44):

Oh yeah, I'm going to not give a shit right now. I'm just going to ambrace the call of the universe.

Matt Williams (00:52:51):

Or conversely, when things are really good, I mean, that's, I've been on both sides where, oh my God, I don't know if I'm going to survive. I mean, this business, we had a period where we put everything online, literally everything. I was like, I had to borrow money. I was at the low of the low. And I mean, it's all relative. I'm very conscious the fact that we've had an incredible life despite challenges on a relative basis to the rest of the world. But it was tough. And then when things get really good, it's like, oh, cool. I got this now. Which is really funny. I laugh at myself. I'm like, dude, you didn't create any of this, and now you're saying that you've got the ball you're going to take over from this universal power, which is just ridiculous, right? Yeah. And I find that almost as hard when things are really good, when things are really good to not hold on tightly.

Justin McMillen (00:53:43):

Wow. And that's amazing. I totally get it. Yeah. I'm curious just a little bit about, and also not now, but I want to circle back about global markets

Matt Williams (00:54:00):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (00:54:02):

You have an insight and we have a lot of crazy stuff going on in the world right now.

Matt Williams (00:54:06):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (00:54:07):

Not now, but I want to circle back to the tariffs and some of that stuff and get your thoughts on.

Matt Williams (00:54:12):

Okay.

Justin McMillen (00:54:13):

But around the solar stuff. So one of the things I'd love to talk about is starting businesses and what that takes and what you think the keys. But I think you're answering a lot of these questions already because you're shaping a philosophy to run a business. But when you say solar power plant, what the hell is that for people who don't know? What is a solar? Is it just a bunch of solar panels?

Matt Williams (00:54:37):

Yeah, exactly. A thousand acre, 2000 acre plots of land, solar panels as far as the eye can see. That was sort of 1.0, if you will, of the industry that started, I don't know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago. And then now technology's gotten a lot of better. They're a lot more efficient. And all of these projects, at least the stuff that we're working on, they're paired with battery energy storage, so that way you're mitigating the intermittency because obviously the sun goes down, then you don't have power. And so sort of moving, the industry is moving to a place where energy storage probably will be able to keep the power flowing 24 7. I mean, it's not going to happen tomorrow, but that's sort of the common goal. But yeah, just big massive solar fields and energy storage.

Justin McMillen (00:55:23):

Have you seen they shine a light on a tower and

Matt Williams (00:55:28):

Yeah, there's one outside of Vegas. I think it was a big DOE funded project, I think had some mixed outcomes. I don't know that much about it, but I think I forget the name of it. But yeah, it's interesting. It's sort of like the wild west. And again, not an expert. I've been building a business around it just more as an operator shaper of the business. But there are guys on our team that know a lot more about the nuances than I do engineering, the technicalities and what have you. But yeah, it's very new. It's in its infancy still.

(00:56:05):

There's so many aspects, federal, there's controversial stuff, very recent current administration, and I get it. People don't like the fact that the industry is subsidized by federal tax credits, so they want to phase those out. But fortunately, that will mean power prices have to go up to compensate, to incentivize new power generation facilities to be built. And honestly, that's sort of the story of my career is just remaining humble to the complexity. It's like nothing is, I'm looking at the photo behind you with RFK, and it's like there's just really complex, and I feel for people in political seats, they have to condense it into soundbites, but it's like, this shit is really, it's really complicated and you can't just get on TV and talk about it in five minutes. And that's the whole story. So

Justin McMillen (00:56:57):

That you correlated that to him because I think that's a perfect example. You have to really commit to listening to him talk long form to understand what the hell he is saying and If you do, it's like Oh my gosh, this is a great thing for the country, but if you don't and you just capture soundbites, you're like, for sure. And then it's so easy. In fact, I just read a thing in the Washington Post yesterday where the surgeon generals were basically, we have a duty to warn the world about RFK, and I'm friends with this political guy. And he was like, I responded to it and he was like, you should write. I can get it published for you. What the point was though, it was exactly what you're saying, which is these guys really all I could land on was that the surgeon generals, I think they mean well and actually believe, I believe that they believe what they're saying is true, but the reality is that it's more nuanced. And if they spent the time learning, they would understand and then they would go, why in the hell would we not back this person when he is clearly motivated to do something good, and if he is off on anything, let's just support him so he wins, because if he wins, everybody wins. So...

Matt Williams (00:58:14):

I totally agree. Totally agree.

Justin McMillen (00:58:15):

Yeah. It's interesting the complexity of all this stuff. What about Elon's made some pretty crazy claims around solar and what could happen. He's like, if we covered this much land, we could power the whole country. Is that true?

Matt Williams (00:58:29):

I mean, yeah. Again, I'm not going to profess to be industry expert, number one, not even close. It's like I understand the business around it now I understand how to raise capital around these projects, and I focus on the practicality of like, is there a business here? How long will it last? What does this look like five years, 10 years out? I do think that a lot of those things that he has talked about are true, but I also, I sort of look at it as, I mean, I spent my early career trading oil and gas, so I don't, I mean, I love planet Earth. I grew up swimming in lakes and rivers and oceans, and I have a sensitivity there. But again, there's just so much complexity. I don't think there's a perfect mouse trap for any of these things. And there's a transition happening, and one of the things that I'm working on now is sort of a business of fund type structure that would invest in businesses that are regenerative agriculture, things like that, that I think there's a real need. There's people doing this already, but I think there's great need for capital and good stewards of capital for investing in some of these businesses that are charting a different course in a new kind of economic paradigm.

(00:59:44):

But I just look at it from the perspective of we're in a transition period and it probably will outlast our lifetimes and technologies will change. And I try to not be dogmatic about any of it because I don't think anything that we're doing today, we could go deep down the rabbit hole. And I have these existential questions myself. Okay, we're building power generation. Cool. It's more renewable, it's more green. Awesome. What are people using it for? And we see it on the beach every day. There's trash, whatever. It's like if we don't change our consumption habits and the way that we produce things and consume things, that's a problem. So it's a super complex issue that is about a lot more than the specific silos in the global economy. That's kind of how I think about it. But yeah, I think there's a lot of promise there. I think it makes great sense in some places, other places, it doesn't make any sense at all. I think the federal tax credit support that's scheduled to go away, I get it. I grew up in a very free market kind of mentality professionally, so I understand that perspective, but there's a lot of support behind various industries that post us industrial revolution that created the paradigm that we now live in. Right? That's true. So anyway,

Justin McMillen (01:01:08):

That's true. What do you think of the nuclear, the mini

Matt Williams (01:01:11):

Small modular nuclear reactors? Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, it's super interesting and it can take some time. That's why even just nuclear as it existed 20, 30 years ago, I mean, there's all this renewed interest now, which is awesome, but it could take a decade to bring those online. So I think personally, that's my view is that the politicalization, a lot of this stuff unfortunately, has created an environment where we're not looking at it similar to healthcare. We're not looking at it from a holistic view. Where are the problems and how do we practically move forward in an efficient way? It's like, oh, this idea belongs to those guys, so that's shit. Get it out of here. You know what I mean? And so my view is that there will be a significant power problem in the US in the next few years because of what this recent bill implemented, because we have a path to incremental power generation that's quick around renewables. It makes a lot of sense in some places, doesn't in others. Gas, nuclear, these other power generation facilities, it takes a long time. And data center and ai, there's a huge hype, a lot of hype, a lot of promise, a lot of hype. And unless there's a massive change in the technology, there's going to be a tremendous power demand. And so if new power generation isn't being built, it's going to be online in a few years, but there's a lot of new demand, there's probably an issue there temporarily. Sure. So anyway, long...

Justin McMillen (01:02:53):

Do you spend time thinking about how to use that or how to position yourself based on that?

Matt Williams (01:02:59):

Yeah, I mean, I think about in the context of our current business that we just got to stay the course, do really well around what we have in front of us today, bring these world-class projects to fruition, and then there will probably be a lot of opportunity to do more of this in three, four years.

Justin McMillen (01:03:18):

Okay.

(01:03:20):

That's so interesting. I feel like solar should just be an obvious thing to make money off of. I mean, we have this giant nuclear reactor in the sky, and it's giving us all this energy. It's not just, I mean, the fact that it gives plants and it feeds the whole world is amazing. And then the fact that humans figured out a way through portable takes to harness that, I mean, wow. It's pretty mind blowing. And it's such a, I mean, I think it did get thrown in the bucket of all renewable, or not renewables, but just green is bad politicized. It's weird. I think obviously I remember when we were trying to make Al Gore in the early days of all this, and it was like, how do we bring the world towards this? And it was like, well, we got to make it valuable.

Matt Williams (01:04:08):

Mhm.

Justin McMillen (01:04:09):

Got to attract business people to it. That happened and then did its thing. And then now it got all its spokespeople screaming. Totally. We got to global warming all this. And then those happened to be on one side of an aisle or the other side wanted to kill it, and they're forgetting that there was all this substance there. I do. I think some of it is bs. I do. I think there's certain things that don't have the ROI at all. It doesn't make any sense totally being done, but solar just has always seemed like a good idea to me. Yeah. Okay. So you started the company, he got some contracts. He had no idea what the hell you were doing which I love because coming from data-driven, the smartest guy in the room, not that you'd ever call yourself that, but to go from that space to sitting there going, man, do I have to put on game face right now and pretend like I'm not freaking out? Totally.

Matt Williams (01:05:05):

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Justin McMillen (01:05:07):

So I love that. And then good partner, you worked

Matt Williams (01:05:12):

Absolutely phenomenal human being. Feels like family.

Justin McMillen (01:05:15):

Nice.

Matt Williams (01:05:16):

Which, yeah, I feel very lucky there.

Justin McMillen (01:05:19):

And you're out in Texas?

Matt Williams (01:05:21):

Yep. Mainly Texas, Puerto Rico. We have a big effort there. And yeah, central West, Texas.

Justin McMillen (01:05:29):

You were living in Texas though?

Matt Williams (01:05:30):

I was, yeah, I was living there. So April and I moved there. Was great to us. And that was a plan to stay there, build the business, and then for many reasons that I'm sure you understand coming back, I grew up in southern California, much different from coastal Orange County. But yeah, we visited Laguna Beach North, Laguna, fell in love with the community, fell in love with the people, and now it's home forever for sure. Full stop. Yeah, that's the succinct story for something that is really nuanced and interesting, different about where we live.

Justin McMillen (01:06:14):

Yeah. Did you and April know family was part of the equation pretty early on?

Matt Williams (01:06:23):

Yeah, I think, yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:06:24):

Did you tell her you wanted kids?

Matt Williams (01:06:25):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were both clear with the right timing. It was absolutely...

Justin McMillen (01:06:32):

She doesn't seem to be, you're not a hippie, Matt, but you're walking around barefoot with your beard and a big smile. You two seem like you come from different places. I don't put her in that sort of wild hair. So how does that balance work? Although with your background, I mean, you also don't really fit the stereotype for a Wall Street guy either. So how does this relationship...

Matt Williams (01:07:01):

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny. It's funny. I'm sure a lot of this leads into one thing that we sort of endeavored to talk about today, just the balance of the masculine, the feminine relationship, child rearing, childbirth, all those things. But I mean, she'll tell you, she has literally created a meme of me, like former life in a suit, clean shaven, short hair versus today. So it's like I always tell people I didn't always look like this. I've rebelled a little bit because I spent a lot of time in high rise office buildings and fluorescent lighting. It's like if I can be barefoot walking around in the sun on a call, still working, I'm happy. So being by the beach in North Laguna has been massively transformative for me in many ways. But that is an important one because I love being outside and still love building businesses and doing all the things. So it affords a really amazing quality of life, as you know.

Justin McMillen (01:08:10):

How'd you get yourself comfortable with the idea of not being where your business is located?

Matt Williams (01:08:16):

It's an interesting question because I've always been old school. I want to look people in the eyes. I want to be with them. I want it to be tangible. Of course, it's easy for me. I can travel there three less than four hours door to door. But yeah, I don't know. It's something that I'm still exploring because this new paradigm, I mean, as we started building out our team, everybody was distributed anyway as we built out our executive team. Nobody was really, I knew I wasn't going to ask folks to relocate, talented people, great backgrounds. They could probably work anywhere. And so as this sort of post pandemic remote work world has evolved, I think we're all rolling with it, and I still don't know how I feel about it. I don't love it. I like being around people into the same roof, I think. So I try to get in front of people and shake hands and do those things as much as I can. I think it's really important.

Justin McMillen (01:09:16):

Did you go out there quite a bit?

Matt Williams (01:09:17):

Not as much as I would've expected. We've been able to actually do it very well and very efficiently.

(01:09:23):

But again, I different topic for another day, but I think one of my favorite books professionally is this book called Deep Work. And it's just all about, we're all massively distracted. A lot of these tools that allow us to do these things in terms of connectivity are great, but they're also some of our worst enemies. So we don't often sit here and look each other in the eye for two, three hours and have a conversation. And so I'm pretty fanatical about that, and I think it's hard to do that when you're at home. I'm extremely disciplined, not to toot my own horn, but I am, and it's hard for me. So it's like, I know it's hard for a lot of people. You got a baby crying, you got whatever happening in the background. So we're still figuring it out. But I think we've been able to do a good job. And again, I can't complain. I have an amazing quality of life right on the beach, and I can jump off a call and swim in the ocean, which is an incredible blessing. I mean, I walk on the beach with my four month old son every morning, and I used to have a gratitude practice writing it down, but now I just speak it out loud so he can hear it.

(01:10:28):

These are the 10 things I'm grateful for. I'm doing this while I'm walking on the beach at sunrise. It's like, how amazing is this? So I feel very blessed to be able to live that way.

Justin McMillen (01:10:39):

You said you're a very disciplined guy. What does that look like?

Matt Williams (01:10:46):

Just in general?

Justin McMillen (01:10:46):

Where does it come from in you? Yeah. Tell me about how you run your day, what time do you wake up and what are the non-negotiables? And also where do you get it from? I think mean people understanding the value, again, the people listening to this, they're listening to you. How can I do that or how can I, so what have you learned about the value discipline? Where does it come from in you and what are your practices look like?

Matt Williams (01:11:12):

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I laugh because I'm sure Jocko Jocko's work and discipline equals freedom. And I used to always listen to his, the exactly Aki, the Dawn, the remixes of him talking and stuff like that, which it's awesome. I totally believe there's magic there. I've tried to let go of some of that rigidity myself because I've learned that. I think to answer your question, where does it come from? It did come from a place of fear for me. I was like, I'm going to fucking work harder than everybody. That's how I'm going to win, and I'm not going to be stuck where I grew up. And God bless that place. I'm so grateful that I was born there and still have family there, and the sunsets over the desert are beautiful. But there was this really powerful desire to elevate above this place to chart a different course, hero's journey kind of thing.

(01:12:19):

Not that, again, not, but that resonates with me, that story. So that was what drove me, was changing the circumstances of my life. I grew up super humble beginnings, my parents, amazing people, so grateful for them, but grew up, we survived. We weren't, it wasn't an extremely, an extreme version of poverty or anything like that, but it was dicey. We lived in really bad neighborhoods. There was a lot of bad shit that happened around us. And so I would always listen to guys Will Smith, he was talking about, I'm going to, I'm on the treadmill and I'll keep going until I'm going to die, or the guy next to me is going to stop. That's the kind of stuff that used to inspire me. So yeah, that kind of discipline is what I lived with for a long time. And then that translated into all the routines.

(01:13:19):

My wife always jokes with me, what's the new protocol I always have? It's like, I'm doing this. I'm doing breath work for 30 minutes. I'm meditating for 20 minutes. I'm going cold exposure, all the things. And so that has served me really well. So yeah, I think that's what, to answer your question before I keep going on that is what it has looked like for me is just like, okay, there's a personal spiritual practice that enriches my entire life personally and professionally, do that consistently on a regular basis, which I do think is really important. And then in my life's work or profession or vocation, writing those waves of divine really inspired action like we talked about earlier, and really honing the craft and getting better at it. And that has served me well, but also I've taken myself, I think way too seriously at times and missed out on some joy and the ability to, I've probably wasted a lot of time and effort just trying to do things because my ego wanted to feel like I was doing shit.

Justin McMillen (01:14:28):

Yeah, I do know.

Matt Williams (01:14:30):

So...

Justin McMillen (01:14:31):

Like you got your four hour morning.

Matt Williams (01:14:33):

Exactly. You see those meeting, that's what it is. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Justin McMillen (01:14:37):

Yeah. It's like I wake up at three o'clock in the morning and I do this, and it's making fun of David Goggins or all these people. Yeah, I do love that you mentioned Jocko though, because, and hopefully I'll have 'em on here. That's a goal. But I like that you mentioned him because the idea of discipline equals freedom

(01:14:56):

Is really interesting because it's like the goal is to have this space, the pondering space, the ability to surf, but you really do have to have the right discipline your life to create it. And if you don't, then you're sort of just living this entire life reactively, right? Reactively, where everything's just happening to you. You're sort of bouncing around. But even people who practice the shall and kung fu guys, it's like extreme discipline. Almost all spiritual paths have discipline as a component to it, so it makes sense. I mean, you could even have extreme discipline around the rules that you have with following the Dao De Jing.

Matt Williams (01:15:38):

Yeah, totally.

Justin McMillen (01:15:40):

Be disciplined about not holding onto things.

Matt Williams (01:15:43):

Exactly.

Justin McMillen (01:15:44):

Yeah, letting go and

Matt Williams (01:15:45):

Totally,

Justin McMillen (01:15:46):

Yeah. So you say protocols. What are your current protocols?

Matt Williams (01:15:52):

Honestly, I never thought I would say this, but after my first child was born four months ago, I was quite humbled. I used to think that people with kids were always making excuses, and I quickly learned that it's real.

(01:16:09):

And so prior to it was I would wake up, I've spent 15, 20 years waking up at 4:30 AM at the desk by 5, 5 30, which was, I think eventually took a physical toll on me. And so now I embrace the luxury of waking up with the sunrise. So I would get up with the sunrise, usually go down to the beach and do some variation, form of breath, work, breathing practices, meditation, and to this point, what we were just talking about, that discipline, I think of two things. One, David Hawkins, his work, he really simplifies it. He's like, at the end of the day, the spiritual path, the most profound thing you can do, and I think this is a discipline, is deep humility and surrender to God or to this universal force. That's it. If you do that consistently,

(01:17:06):

That's in his view, sort of the path to enlightenment. But also, there's a guy, Lauren Roche, who wrote this book called The Radiance Sutras. I've been fortunate to work with him directly as a meditation teacher, and he helped me a lot by saying, he's like, Matt, that's really cool. You, for 20 years, you sat down for 20 minutes, twice a day, you meditated. You were very disciplined about it. You did your thing because that was my mentality. I'm doing this. I'm going to fucking do this meditation thing. I'm going to do it right. And he would tell me, that's awesome. You can give that guy a beer now and tell him you can chill out a little bit now, and you can sit there for 20 minutes and you can open your eyes and you can feel the wind on your face, and you can listen to the ocean.

(01:17:55):

Maybe you can look into the eyes of your newborn sun, and that can be your meditation. And that I think you can get into this can go off the rails with that where you lose some of that discipline. But it to me, has helped bring me back to, I think a more balanced position where it's not like I'm going to master all these things and do it through brute force. It's like there's an awe and wonder and delight that can come with infusing your life with some of these practices, which I really needed. But yeah, breath work meditation for sure is a go-to for me. And it's kind of cliche now. Everybody's doing it, but I think it's powerful. It's a powerful practice in any form. I've been doing it for, been practicing meditation for probably 20 years now, and if I had one thing, that would be it. There's only one thing I can do every day. It would be some form of meditation.

Justin McMillen (01:18:49):

What time of day?

Matt Williams (01:18:51):

I like mornings before the hustle and bustle of the morning starts. That's why I kind of joke that with the arrival of the baby, our routine has been, I grab him in the morning so mom can get some extra sleep, and then I walk on the beach with him. So I try to turn that into a walking meditation, and I always joke that I spent 20 years trying to be more present, and then the guru showed up, which is my child, and now I'm really present with him and looking at the world differently.

Justin McMillen (01:19:21):

It's crazy, right? The hypervigilance is just...

Matt Williams (01:19:24):

Yeah,

Justin McMillen (01:19:24):

And what you said, it is so important to not fight the natural instincts that are being called upon when a child's born because there's so much energy spent, people going, oh, I need to make it this certain way. And it's like all the answers, they're going to tell you what you need to do next. And yeah, I love seeing you with him in the morning. It's been really cool for everyone in the neighborhood to see kind of your relationship and Rachel's relationship the way you care for her. It's pretty awe inspiring.

Matt Williams (01:20:01):

Yeah. Thank you.

Justin McMillen (01:20:01):

I love that you call him the guru. Yeah,

Matt Williams (01:20:03):

He's the teacher.

(01:20:05):

Oh, for sure.

Justin McMillen (01:20:06):

He's now teaching you more than you've ever learned.

Matt Williams (01:20:10):

So true. It's so true.

Justin McMillen (01:20:12):

Yeah. Balthazar .

Matt Williams (01:20:16):

Yeah, balthazar .

Justin McMillen (01:20:17):

Yeah. Which is, what's the significance of that name?

Matt Williams (01:20:22):

To be honest, we both just saw the name a few years ago and we loved it. And then you research things more as you always do. And he supposedly is one of the names of the three wise men. And so one of our good friends in the neighborhood who, well, they brought us a gift of Mer because Bal Baltazar brought the Frankincense Mer to baby Jesus. He brought the Merh, so they gave us a really cool sort of ritual alter piece that had merh in it for him after he was born, which is really neat. But yeah, one of the three wise men, I think if you go deep on it and you read kind of the history, the language, what I think is cool is it is said to mean God protects the king, and I'm sure we'll talk about it here, but there's a journey of exploring masculinity and the polarities of the masculine and feminine I'm extremely passionate about, and I realized after he was born that that's what his name meant in some ways, as God protects the king, which I see that as the sacred masculinity in all of us meant that I believe should be celebrated and cultivated and honored.

(01:21:47):

So it's kind of like I accidentally, if you will, named my son, gave him this name that will remind me of this path, that this path of embodied masculine presence that I'm really passionate about.

Justin McMillen (01:22:04):

Where does that come from? I mean, obviously you're a man, but has this always been something you're interested in, and is it new? Is it based on the attack on masculinity that's happened? Where is it your April's relationship? Was it there before?

Matt Williams (01:22:23):

Yeah, no, I would say, yeah. I mean, this is going to be fun, I think, and I feel like I should throw a disclaimer out there that I'll probably say things that might rub some people the wrong way. This is what resonates with me. I'm not the expert I'm learning. I'll probably realize things that I was wrong about five years from now, things I'm saying today, and I'm very aware of that. But it resonates deeply with me today, and I think it resonates with a lot of other great men and women that I interact with now. And so definitely was not always there for me. I'll try to weave this in a little bit, and if I get to, if this is, yeah, just cut me off if we need to. Okay.

Justin McMillen (01:23:17):

I'm so into this. I'm learning so much from you, and this is one of the funner ones that I've done, so

Matt Williams (01:23:21):

Thank you.

Justin McMillen (01:23:22):

Yeah, I'm loving it.

Matt Williams (01:23:23):

Okay. Well, yeah, I would say, I'll bounce around a little bit, but there's a book called Iron John, and it's written by Robert Bly, who was an award-winning American poet, beautifully written in the eighties. The whole book reads poetry, and he incorporates a lot of poetry, but it's really based around this mythological story of Iron John and the young boy who's born into the king and queen, and he loses his golden ball, and then the wild man in the forest initiates him, basically, it's a story of initiation. And so a

Justin McMillen (01:23:57):

Writeup passage.

Matt Williams (01:23:58):

Exactly. Yeah. And it's beautifully written. I mean, I read this, I'm just like, oh my God, why is nobody talking about this anymore? This was written almost 40 years ago, maybe more, I don't know. I read it probably five, six years ago. And it made me realize, to answer your question, no, this was definitely not a part of me. I craved this initiation as a boy and as a young man and a man, an adult man, but never had it. And his whole thing is basically post-industrial revolution. The fathers are away from the home. We're in these nuclear families. We're not a tribe. I know you speak to this. I mean, you turned me on to the book Tribe by Sebastian Younger, which is amazing, I think touches on some of this. But post-industrial revolution, the fathers are out, and the sons are raised by the mothers, which is amazing. Let it be clear. Women are total bad asses moms. They do things that us men can never do and vice versa. And I think that should be spoken and recognized and praised, right?

Justin McMillen (01:25:05):

They make life

Matt Williams (01:25:06):

Exactly, Exactly.

(01:25:08):

Same thing. I'm just like, after seeing what I saw my wife do, I'm like, all moms are bad asses. That's just the bottom line. And I have tremendous respect. But yeah, so we lost this culture of initiation and across modernity, civilized society, industrialized world consequences to that. So when I read that book, I realized, oh my God, this was my life. Again, so grateful for my parents, but they were divorced when I was pretty young. Spent some time with my dad, but not a ton. And the moms, they ended up raising the kids, which is amazing. We're great. We're here because of them, but there's an initiation that even the father sometimes can't do. It's the uncles, the grandfathers, the other men of the tribe, the village community. So I read that book in my thirties and then realized, whoa, there's something really deep and profound here, and it's cool now because there's a lot of other men talking about it, thinking about it. But I sort of just went on my own personal journey with this. And so yeah, it was new. And then I reflected on a relationship that I was in for a long time, romantic relationship that was not balanced in the polarities of masculine and feminine. I was constantly in a feminine energy talking about everything, talking about work, talking about problems. Instead, I should have just been outside being quiet or meditating or chopping some wood or

(01:26:43):

Killing some deer.

(01:26:44):

Exactly. Walking in nature with my buddies or something. Right. So it's a new newish.

Justin McMillen (01:26:51):

Just going back, because you said something, the industrial revolution chain men went to work. What was going on before then? You didn't mention that. How was it done?

Matt Williams (01:27:03):

I mean, what he speaks to, and I think a lot of the other work around this, I mean, again, I'm very grateful to these teachers. I've never met them in person, but David Data, who wrote the way this appeared, man, John Weyland, who wrote From the Core, it's all sort of along this through line, and I love all of their work. There's a lot of reference prior to that from arguably thousands, millions of years of human history. We lived in tribes and within the tribe there were a lot of things that were different. Birth was a lot different, which I know we're going to talk about, and I'm very cautious of. I'll say the bro science of everything was better when we were hunter gatherers. It was also fucking really hard, and you maybe died when you were two or 10 or 20. And so I try to not subscribe to that with this religious fervor.

(01:28:04):

It's like, yeah, there were some things that were cool about the pre industrialized world and the things we ate and all that. And I tried to eat, I know you do too, in a way that's consistent with the way humans have for millennia. But people were also just trying to survive. And I'm not an anthropologist, I'm not an expert in any of this, but what these guys all speak to is just tribal cultures. There was an initiation sort of, the boys were brought up through the community to a certain age, old enough to understand what was going on, four or five, six years old, and then they were taken away by the men of the tribe, often the father, but more the uncles and the grandfathers, the non father, male figures. And they would go through process of initiation and sort of introducing them to, to their responsibilities, to the tribe, how to be a man. I know that sounds really vague and weird, but no, it doesn't. How to live properly in a community and contribute to this community and utilize your masculine gifts. So that's the way that I look at it. There was this paradigm that existed for many, many, many years that we've gotten away from for a very short period of time. This is all new,

(01:29:25):

And that's why arguably I think you've got gangs, you have drugs, you have different things. We're initiating ourselves. We're trying to find that initiation in whatever way we can.

Justin McMillen (01:29:35):

It's true a lot of times when we, you know what I do. And so we get younger guys that come in. I think a lot of them are going out to find their own war

Matt Williams (01:29:48):

Mhm, Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:29:48):

Test their metal. I think that's a huge piece of it, especially if you look at the most prevalent drug use. It's like 18 to 23. It's this window of time where people are looking for something, and we live in such a comfortable society with so much abundance that I think people want so badly to have a visceral and real experience. Totally. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. So these books, the Iron, iron, iron John, iron John and

Matt Williams (01:30:16):

Way of The Superior Man, incredible, phenomenal book

Justin McMillen (01:30:21):

Was the catalyst because of the relationship.

Matt Williams (01:30:23):

Oh, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I forgot about that. But it all kind of coincided for me. It was like there was this realization of, wow, this really resonates looking, and I was probably early thirties, 44 today. I was early thirties when I started to explore some of this, and it really resonated with me, okay, there was something missing for me that I really craved but didn't really know what it was.

Justin McMillen (01:30:49):

Mhm

Matt Williams (01:30:49):

When I met my now wife, because of the depth of the love that was there, and I could cry thinking about it right now, which again, I would not have thought was a masculine thing to do prior to going on this journey, which I do, we can feel deeply as well. There's no shame in that. There's power in that. When I met her, the depth of the love inspired this. It brought forth this energy of, oh my God, what's my role in this dynamic? And we're not equals, and I don't want us to be equals. And again, it sounds like a disclaimer, but I want her to be thriving in her feminine essence, and how can I hold that space for her to do that? Right?

(01:31:44):

And it was just, it was a perfect timing for me to really, I been noodling on these things intellectually, reading these books, wine. Then I did some of those courses, but it was like cool. The universe was like, dude, awesome. Whatcha going to do now? You've got love at first sight. How are you going to show up for her?

Justin McMillen (01:32:04):

Mhm

Matt Williams (01:32:05):

So I had an awesome opportunity to really do that in the relationship. And yeah, it was, and still is a very powerful and enriching on a soul level journey and process. To me, that's it. I think there's a lot to unpack there, but I think you can also distill it down very simply, which is in my view, and again, this is what resonates for me, and I think a lot of other men is, and women, I'll go on an aside for a moment, but it's like to me, this masculine, this divine masculine, the power, the essence, the energy of that is, it's like a grounded presence.

(01:32:54):

It's a solid, you're connected to the earth. You're here, you're present. And for me, it was like, oh, nothing gets meditation. I do it every day, but you're not floating off into some other realm. It's like you're connected. Sit down on the earth and connect to the moment. Be here right now. To me, that's like a deeply masculine space to be, right. You're grounded. And anyway, what I was going to say is I think it's really fascinating because all, I believe a lot of us when we're around that energy, women for sure, it's very nourishing for them. I think when they're around a grounded, solid man that they feel safe to just be all of the, and I say this with tremendous love and respect, crazy feminine energy like the ocean. One minute they could cry, one minute they could laugh, which is awesome.

Justin McMillen (01:33:49):

They're the creators.

Matt Williams (01:33:50):

Exactly. And it's really nourishing for women to be exposed to that. And other men too, it's like if a dude, uncle, friend, whoever walks in, it's like that guy, Saul, you're attracted to it.

Justin McMillen (01:34:03):

Mhm

Matt Williams (01:34:04):

Want to sit down next to that guy. And so that's why I think it's, again, there's a lot to unpack, but I find it really fascinating. It actually is quite simple. It's like there's a grounded embodied presence that certainly that I aspire to that is there are a lot of forces in our modern world working against that. We're distracted. We've got our phones, we're looking at everything twenty four seven. It's taking us out of that, but our true power is just like you're here holding space.

Justin McMillen (01:34:39):

I had no idea how much you and I see the world similar, but it makes sense too. What's great about it is that the forces of nature are also at play, and they're so powerful that no matter what we do, we're not going to get away from them. Natural selection built things in such a way where just from purely a physiological standpoint, that stuff's there. There's layers to male and female energy, but there's things that we just can't get away from. I mean, there's statistics right now around men and how many of them kill themselves and how because they're lacking basic purpose, they're lacking alignment with these things. Yeah. I'm obsessed with this subject. I feel like I wrote a thing a while back that I never did anything with. It was the baby with the bath water, and it was about how men were originally kind of the creators of these machines. It's always this bigger, better, more kind of thing that we bring to the table. And then we jumped into the system we created around it, and then we got all excited about it. And then women were like, we want to be part of that too. And it was like everybody was stoked. It was like, this makes sense. Well, war two did a lot of this, but then women jumped on board in the name of good things like equality. But what was left behind, I think women got completely screwed is the fact that children like babies, we threw the baby out with the bathwater. Nobody thought that we should probably stop and go, wait a minute. We stopped honoring. I think men fucked up because we stopped really honoring the power and what was happening with the children. I think that's a huge layer of it. I think another layer too is that you got to go back kind of far not in the scope of all of human existence, but you got to go back a little bit to get to the tribal side of things where we had communities of people raising children. Because

Matt Williams (01:36:45):

Sure

Justin McMillen (01:36:45):

Think the stay-at-home mom ideas also weird. I've watched this with my wife. It took multiple children for her to have enough substance and different things to where there wasn't, she was getting depressed. It was like, there's got to be more meaning to this. And I think looking at it, it's like, well, if we were living in teepees and there was a different world here, there'd be lots of women. There'd be lots of children, there would be a community. Right?

Matt Williams (01:37:14):

Totally.

Justin McMillen (01:37:15):

Yeah. I think the true, you mentioned, what's all this for? Going back to what back when we're talking about power generation and you have shit in the ocean and people and behavior. It's like if we really want to try to make things better, we have to restore these basic fundamental things so that the humans that are being born and raised are good people and that they feel loved and safe. And I'm obsessed with this, and with more children being born and my family getting bigger, it's the most important thing. By such a long shot, we're going to die. Baltazar is going to live on, and your other children you have, and they're going to have children. And that's really where all the substances, our big ideas,

Matt Williams (01:38:06):

Mhm, Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:38:06):

Okay, but it's like they'll come and go, these humans, this is the possibility for everything.

Matt Williams (01:38:15):

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Justin McMillen (01:38:17):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (01:38:19):

I totally agree. You touched on something I think is really fascinating. I've ruminated upon this a lot the last few months. We live in this really beautiful community that feels like a village.

(01:38:30):

We see people every day walking around, you're not trying to connect. We're all connecting all the time, which I'm like, oh my God, I didn't even know you could live that way just in general, let alone in the density of Southern California. So I feel very blessed, but as I've seen the child come into the world, it's like that's the one, there's so much support. We all support each other. The families get together, which is amazing. So you get some of that village kind of tribal dynamic, but then we're all still doing different things and the mothers have babies and they're raising the children, and you see it. It's a lot, right? And God bless 'em doing an amazing job. Nothing to be critical about, but you see how powerful it would be for them to have the aunties and the grandmothers around them and collectively raising the children, which is really, it's hard.

(01:39:27):

I don't know. I don't know if we can get there unless we all go to a commune or something. But the other thing that really got me going, you mentioned in the beginning about men and suicide and all these things. One of the practical books that I love is John Gray has a bunch of work around this, but his book Beyond Mars and Venus, which is more just relationship dynamic, but it's specifically about just kind of the science of hormones. And this is what happens if you're unpopular opinion, but if you're a hard charging boss, babe, woman in the workforce, here's what happens to your hormones.

Justin McMillen (01:40:04):

Mhm.

Matt Williams (01:40:04):

It may not be optimal, and you may not be in the childbearing state, hormonally. And conversely, for men, here's what happens. If you talk about your feelings all day and your testosterone plummets, and he has really cool practical things that suggestions cave time. Like men, when you come home from work, take an hour of cave time, like swim in the ocean, chop some wood, meditate, drive a car, fix something, use your hands. Don't talk to your wife about your workplace problems for an hour, which is, by the way, what I used to do for years and years and years. And it makes you realize, this is why I think there's a lot of men struggling. Nobody's really informing us of these practices that we can do to replenish ourselves, restore kind of balance, hormonally, there's some science there, and then show up for our families.

Justin McMillen (01:41:01):

What you're saying, I mean, the cave time, the boss babe thing, well, first of all, make it clear this world, this world that men built that early on, men built these machines and things, it's not that great.

New Speaker (01:41:20):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (01:41:21):

Doing a lot of good stuff. But trust me, when I say coming to join this world and becoming that boss, babe, think about what you're doing because we may have seduced you over here. It may have looked really good, but look at the product of that for what's actually happening. Yeah, I think women have gotten tricked. And then of course, it's hurt our physiology, and then we're not even supposed to talk about this shit.

Matt Williams (01:41:50):

Right? Exactly. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:41:51):

You're even being like, well, I should. It's like

Matt Williams (01:41:54):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:41:55):

We're white American males, and this is all just bad stuff for people to talk about because we're privileged and we just have no Right. Meanwhile, highest suicide rate, men are killing each other. All men or prisons are filled with men. It's a big problem. I think now it's becoming more of a mainstream conversation. I think we saw the pendulum at Spark at this 0.4 or five years ago, and I think it's finally pretty rapidly coming back the other way.

Matt Williams (01:42:25):

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. And that's why, yeah, I always think it's just, there's a polarity. There's biology at play, right?

(01:42:36):

I mean, that's just the way that it is. There's biology at play as it relates to reproducing and carrying on, building family legacy. There's true biology at play, and there's a really powerful polarity between the masculine and feminine that I think it should be celebrated. It shouldn't be controversial for men to be really thinking about how to be more embodied and present and not, I don't even using these words, toxic masculinity, it's like, what does that even mean? It's just a reaction to a problem that probably isn't the right solution, but, but there's something really powerful there about the embodied presence, the strong masculine energy. Just like there's something amazing about the deeply feminine, the deep feminine, the mother, the nurturing, the intuition. We talk about intuition. It's like, fuck, what's more powerful than a woman's intuition. And it's like, why are we not celebrating those polarities instead of, I don't know, we're caught in this...

Justin McMillen (01:43:55):

Trying to be each other.

Matt Williams (01:43:56):

Yeah, exactly.

Justin McMillen (01:44:00):

When you were talking about men and women coming together and honoring each other's polarities, so if you just run this out a little thought experiment, if that actually happens in the raw way possible, it creates humans.

Matt Williams (01:44:11):

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:44:12):

It's like clearly male and female energy coming together does magical shit. The most miraculous thing we do is make humans, you don't even have to. It's life. It's creation of life. So clearly these energies coming together as good. So if we start there and say, yeah, when they come together, life is created. Well, what is all of the stuff around that

(01:44:33):

We should be looking at? And we really all have to get past this idea of vilifying wanting to get back to roles. Totally. It doesn't make somebody a misogynist. It doesn't make someone privileged and unaware. It doesn't make a woman weak. I mean, holy shit, man. My wife, it's like she loves to raise our children. There's evolution to a woman over time. The kids are getting older. She wants to, she's looking at what else is there and all of this. But there's this period that's really important where there's nothing more valuable than that, taking the time to do that. My children are the greatest joy in my life,

Matt Williams (01:45:15):

Mhm

Justin McMillen (01:45:15):

They spend most of their time with her. It's kind of obvious. Yeah. So you're a new father. What do you think so far?

Matt Williams (01:45:30):

It's the best. It's everything that people told me when they said, oh, you can't describe it. It's the most profound experience of your entire life. All those things I'd like. Yeah, it's true.

Justin McMillen (01:45:41):

Yeah, it's weird. There's two sides. You have the no child side.

Matt Williams (01:45:46):

Mhm.

Justin McMillen (01:45:46):

There's a whole way of interacting with the world. And then once you step over that line, one, there's no stepping back. And two, it's like, and I hate to alienate people who don't have children, but it's a totally different reality.

Matt Williams (01:46:00):

For sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:46:01):

So you're talking to people and it's like they just don't get it, even the problem, everything. I mean, I can be kind of a dick sometimes because I'm just like, you don't even know what, you know what I mean? For sure. All the things our parents said or like...

Matt Williams (01:46:12):

Yeah, exactly. No, I agree. And I didn't know mean, again, I'm 44 now, so starting maybe a little bit later, but I didn't know partially because I wasn't in the right circumstance and it wasn't there. The energy wasn't there. I was like, maybe I won't have kids. I don't know. I had those thoughts through my thirties, and then of course when I met her, everything changed. I'm like, of course. This is what we're doing. And yeah, it's incredible. I mean, it's truly the most humbling, profound experience of my life by far. And yeah, again, he's the guru. He's the guru right now. Bringing the presence into my life, for sure.

Justin McMillen (01:46:59):

I love that you say that because I've always thought of it as, I always tell people when you have your first kid, you're just going to be hyper vigilance.

Matt Williams (01:47:06):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:47:06):

Like you can't understand this idea that the brain never shuts off when you're asleep. It's like you still have to be aware. Its like it's so exhausting when you're not used to that. A time where you can, in fact, you guys will notice this the first time you spend away from him, or you're like, it's you're supposed to do something. Oh, yeah, totally. Cause there's a switch that flips where it's like, you got to be constantly there. But I like referring to it as being present, teaching you presence.

Matt Williams (01:47:34):

For sure. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:47:35):

So you guys, when I met you, well, I think, yeah, April was pregnant, going up and down, walking up and down in the neighborhood and all of that, and it's like, baby's coming. And then you told me you were going to do the home birth thing. Why not hospital?

Matt Williams (01:47:54):

Mhm.

Justin McMillen (01:47:55):

Where's all that come from? Was that her? Was that you?

Matt Williams (01:47:56):

It was all her, yeah. Yeah. Basically Medicare. Again, I stand in awe of the feminine of mothers of all of it. And it's like, this is your journey. I mean, I felt that from the very beginning. And she was very clear. She wanted to do a home birth. She wanted have the baby at home, not by herself, but with a midwife and a doula help around her. But she was very clear, and I knew nothing. I mean, I have an older brother who's five years older. He started having kids when he was 20. So you can imagine his kids are adults now. And I was too young at the time to really engage with them. We had a pretty small nuclear family, not a lot of tribal dynamic going on, so I wasn't around babies. And so I'm like, okay, this is going to be crazy. It's going to be pretty wild. I had no idea what to expect. I mean, even the most basic things about childbirth, I had no idea what to expect. But she was very clear even years prior, a couple of years prior to, I think she had made the decision. And so we sort of went into, let's get ready for this. And it was really cool. I mean, if you don't mind, I'll just go down that track.

Justin McMillen (01:49:13):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (01:49:15):

I mean, so here I was sort of on this journey of exploring and getting more and more clear and working on it. And I still am of really, again, just harnessing my own masculine gifts. And again, I think ultimately that's just grounded presence and being present in the world, being present for her despite whatever. I love the way David Data talks about it. It's like, your job isn't to fix, stop hoping. One of the chapters in his book is Stop hoping for your woman to get easier. It's like, that's not your job. Just hold. Just be present for her to do whatever the fuck she wants to do. She's pissed off or angry or it's okay. It doesn't need to make sense.

Justin McMillen (01:50:02):

Right.

Matt Williams (01:50:03):

I spent 20 years trying to convince every woman I was with that they weren't making sense.

Justin McMillen (01:50:07):

What's wrong with you?

(01:50:08):

Exactly.

Matt Williams (01:50:10):

So anyway, you tie all that in to, okay, she's pregnant. There's a lot of emotion flowing. So it was an amazing opportunity to really deepen this practice for me,

Justin McMillen (01:50:20):

Mhm

Matt Williams (01:50:20):

How can I just be present for her and all the emotion and everything that's coming up through this. And again, this isn't me. This is her journey. She's the powerhouse. She's the badass. Nothing I say should distract from that. This is something that she did. It's amazing. I was just trying to show up in the most loving, supportive way. So as we started going down this path, you have these meetings. The midwife comes. We had a great, great crew. Her and her husband, she works with her husband, the midwife, and then we had a doula as well. So as the three of them, we would meet on a regular basis, getting closer to the birth. And we started exploring. For me, and I'm not saying I was the architect of it, but I'll never forget this conversation I had with a good friend of mine, phenomenal human being. But I was talking to him and he had just recently had a kid, and he's like, you're going to be during the birth. You're going to be everything. You're going to be her support.

(01:51:22):

I was like, okay, maybe. But I didn't say anything out loud, but I just remember thinking, I'm not sure. Am I equipped to do that? Is there any amount of studying or learning or self-actualization that I can do to hold that space for her?

Justin McMillen (01:51:38):

Wow.

Matt Williams (01:51:39):

Maybe not. Right? And so her and I started talking about it. Fortunately, we have a relationship where it's like nothing's off limits. And we both were kind of like, yeah, this is interesting. What does this look like when the baby actually comes? Where am I as the man, the husband, where, what is the practical manifestation of this? Right? And again, going back to, I'll talk about it passionately. I went down the rabbit hole. I'm like, somebody has to be talking about this. And basically, almost nobody is. There's a French guy, I think he passed away recently. His name's Michael Odin, kind of controversial dude. He's got some books, but he wrote about this a lot. He spoke to it a lot. I started doing research on what were tribal cultures doing when babies came into the world. And again, not that that's the end all be all. They did a lot of dumb things. We do a lot of dumb things, like whatever. But I came to believe that, and sorry, I'm bouncing around a little bit, but there's an article by a midwife that she showed me and I read, and it made me realize this is probably by far the most profound spiritual experience a woman will have. And having the masculine energy sort of intertwined with that might not be a good idea. So I started coming from that place.

(01:53:10):

Is going to be a transformative, deeply spiritual experience for her. And she doesn't need me standing in front of her, like counting breaths or something. That's why I think the moms end up getting pissed off sometimes and get the hell out of here. What are you doing? So there's so many layers to it. Intimacy, I think about the work of Esther Perel. She talks a lot about mating and captivity and all this stuff. It's like we already have an uphill battle of lifelong monogamy and maintaining the spark. And maybe it's not the best thing for the husband to just be right there and witness the birth. And so the more we explored that concept, what resonated deeply for us, and again, this guy, Odin, Michael Odin, what he talks a lot about is things like lighting, blue light exposure. I think this comes from him. Maybe it's another source. I dunno, I'm going to butcher some of it. But everything affects the labor process.

(01:54:15):

She feels like she's being observed, what he saw anecdotally was if the woman felt like she was being observed, that would slow things down. So there's this crazy complex

Justin McMillen (01:54:25):

That makes sense.

Matt Williams (01:54:25):

Yeah. There's this crazy complex spiritual, chemical, hormonal thing happening. And we're, in my opinion, at least for us, we're screwing it up. And so ultimately what I came to is like, okay, my role is just to protect the perimeter and make sure that she can go down. I mean, if you read some of the stuff, it's almost like a psychedelic experience. It's like just everything changes in those few hours for the woman. She's gone. She's somewhere else. I mean, you could go deep, deep down that on a spiritual level, but for me, it was like, okay, I'm here to protect the perimeter. And she's there with the aunties, the grandmothers, the midwife, the doula. That's what we had.

(01:55:11):

Friends, whatever. But other strong, powerful women who can relate to this experience, and it's beautiful for them. They're on cloud nine because they've been through it. And whereas me, I mean, again, this is just me. I don't care if I did a decade's worth of studying. I'm not equipped for that. Even hormonally, I'm not equipped for that. So that's kind of where we ended up.

Justin McMillen (01:55:39):

What's crazy, I just have to say this, but you wouldn't even have been able to get close to that. And all my children were born in the hospital. Heather wanted to have the last one at home, but the baby was breached, and it just wasn't going to happen. But you wouldn't even have been able to get close to that had you not opted to try to do it at home.

Matt Williams (01:56:01):

For sure. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:56:04):

Because the whole system around it is exactly the opposite to everything you're describing.

Matt Williams (01:56:09):

Yeah, yeah, totally.

Justin McMillen (01:56:10):

People being observed, right? Like drugs and bright lights and yeah.

Matt Williams (01:56:15):

Totally. Yeah. I mean, that was one of the most eyeopening things for me is it's not like I was a hundred feet away. I mean, I was just on the outside of the room doing my own thing, sort of just praying, meditating, kind, focusing on holding the space, whatever. And we had an agreement. It's like, if you need me to be there, I'll be there. This is all you say my name, I'll be right next to you. That was our agreement. But it was really cool and eyeopening because I realized, oh my God, this could never happen in a hospital. She's there. It was quiet. It was dark. There were some candles, soft lighting, strong women around her. And I was very happy for her that she was able to have that experience and things happen. And I'm not a physician. I'm not trying to, whatever. There's plenty of disclaimers to throw out there and things can happen. Everything has its risks. But it was an incredible experience for her.

Justin McMillen (01:57:12):

Did you spend time worrying about the risks?

Matt Williams (01:57:17):

Not as much as I thought I would have. Only because the care that we had that she had, they were really good. And I think they made us, they helped me realize that it's actually very safe. And again, maybe unpopular opinions, whatever, but there's a lot that you can do if you have to do something.

(01:57:36):

So they helped me get acquainted with the idea of this can be very, very safe. And so I was able to let go of that. But it was interesting, even the day of it was phenomenal team. And again, I can't say anything. I'm so grateful for the support that she received from the group that we had. But there was also resistance. It was like, well, wait a minute. Matt's not in the room. We talked to them months before, this is what we want do. We're great. There's nothing wrong. There's nothing wrong. We're solid. There's love flowing out the wazoo between us. We're solid. We feel really good. And that's not a surface level thing. It's a really deep, authentic.

Justin McMillen (01:58:20):

It's not some hang up or like a weird thing. These are things we're clear about.

Matt Williams (01:58:24):

Yeah, we're not acting out some past trauma like this we feel so strong about and we're excited about it, and they were supportive. But the day of interesting enough, and this doesn't highlight any inadequacy with them, they were incredible. I just think it speaks to the cultural inertia and energy around this. It was like, wait a minute, you got to come in the room. I'm like, no, we talked about this. I'm good. We're good. If she asks for me, I'll be there. And so there was a little bit of tension there, which was just really fascinating because there's so much around this and it's like all men need to step up and they're weak. It's like, no, that's not what this is about.

Justin McMillen (01:59:01):

It's not about us at all.

Matt Williams (01:59:02):

Yeah. It's like I could get stronger and do a bunch of breath work and maybe not pass out, but that, so what I believe that, again, there's multiple kind of, I think really cool blessings, positive things that can come out of it, but most importantly, she can be free to have this incredible experience and not be worried about, even for a second, thinking about, is my man here? Is he seeing this? Is this happen? Weird things can happen. Right?

Justin McMillen (01:59:37):

Sure.

Matt Williams (01:59:38):

So that really, and we will do it no differently every single other the time.

Justin McMillen (01:59:46):

Take me back to the day. Were there moments where she was screaming and...

Matt Williams (01:59:51):

Oh yeah. Super primal. Yeah, it was really primal, loud. Yeah. I mean, it was...

Justin McMillen (02:00:01):

How did you feel? Were you emotional? Were you...

Matt Williams (02:00:03):

Oh, yeah, I was emotional. I cried probably the whole time. And just again, I was so happy for her that she was able to have that experience. And I know it was intense for her. She were here. She would say, yeah, it was a lot. It was painful. It was intense.

Justin McMillen (02:00:19):

Did you ever feel a pull to go in there to see if she was okay?

Matt Williams (02:00:23):

No. I mean, I knew that she was surrounded by, even if I wanted to do something, it's like, what am I going to do? She was surrounded by the people that she should have been surrounded by, in my opinion that historically, for millions of years, this is probably what humans were doing. The mother was surrounded by other mothers and grandmothers who knew exactly what was going on and how to support her. And again, not to go too deep into the esoteric and spiritual side of it, but it's a profoundly spiritual experience and one that I think we just don't have a place there. That's my view.

Justin McMillen (02:01:00):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (02:01:00):

In fact, it can dilute the profundity of the experience. And that's why I didn't want to happen because if we're in the room, it's like we can't help it. And he talks about this in one of the books. I think it's like adrenaline transfer or something. It's like you're so connected to your wife. If you watch a movie, she cries. You cry, right? It's like, why am I crying? She's crying. So if I'm in the room and I told my buddy, I'm like, dude, there's no amount of breath work I could do that would help me to not get keyed up during this experience no matter what. And she's going to feel that she's going to sense that, and that can affect her ability to really go into this experience.

Justin McMillen (02:01:44):

I love that you have figured out what so many men need to figure out, which is that it is not about you. That's where even men trying really hard to honor things can still make it all about them. I have to do this because, but there are moments on both sides of the equation where it needs to be about the other person for sure. And it's like you're just here to be here in whatever way that is best for this person that yeah, it's super important. I remember during that time, you guys, we wouldn't see you for a couple of days and I had this weird feeling inside that what was going to happen was you were going to have the baby, you weren't going to tell anyone, and you were just going to hide. It felt so much this, the whole thing was being set up or that you guys were positioning everything in terms of your relationship to go full caveman style. We wouldn't even know. Is there a new baby in the neighborhood now? Yeah, he's been here for three days. This was all done. So you two felt like you were in your own universe? It really did. I mean, I remember George saying the girls had a conspiracy that the baby was born before Al Baby's here. And I was like, George, you would be the only one who would know. I was like, you with your background, maybe Matt wants you to know. Doesn't want anyone else to know. He doesn't want anyone popping over there. It was a lot of this around how you were guarding. Seriously.

Matt Williams (02:03:20):

That's what it felt like.

Justin McMillen (02:03:24):

And it was that way. I was like, yeah. It was funny. When we were talking out in the driveway, I was like, I should get him a sword or an ax or something to hang out.

Matt Williams (02:03:33):

Just like a torch, you know? Just to sit there. That's what it felt like.

Justin McMillen (02:03:38):

Yeah. I mean, you've already said a lot around that, but what sort of advice, let's go back to the pregnancy. What sort of advice would you give to somebody whose significant other is pregnant and baby's on the way? What did you learn? Not just what you read in books, but the things that surprised you. And I mean, there's guys that are.. You know what it's like. Like what the fuck am I supposed to do? So when that guy is telling you, what the fuck am I supposed to do based on you just coming out of this...

(02:04:15):

What do you got?

Matt Williams (02:04:16):

Yeah. I mean, honestly, when I reflect back on my experience, all the things I just said, and I've thought about this a lot, what would I do differently next time?

(02:04:30):

And not to overly simplify it, but I've felt very strongly what I would probably do differently is just lean into that even more. Exactly what you just said. It felt like there was a sort of cave, this sacred space that's like, I would protect that even more. And again, I believe that's part of our masculine gift. That's what we can do, right? It's like I would just be present to hold this space for her to be whatever, all the way up until and through, as crazy as things might seem or wild or irrational or whatever, maybe not, maybe she's super chill. Who cares? Just let her be in this space. Kind of a portal. People refer to it as a portal. They enter this other, everything changes her energy mindset. I mean, everything starts changing. There's science behind it that I can't articulate properly. But for me, I think the most powerful takeaway is that's what we as men can do really, really well and is part of our masculine gift, is just being super grounded and super present so that the feminine energy can express itself in whatever way it's meant to express itself.

(02:06:02):

And so I would have spent a lot less time trying to figure things out, and I would've spent more time just being there, listening, whatever, sitting next to her, maybe touching her, whatever I could to just hold that space. And particularly the day of, even though it went really well, I think I would have liked to even more powerfully protected the space all the way down to the little things. I mean, you've been through it more than I have, so I should be asking you these questions. But it's like there's so much beauty and so much, there's really sacred experience happening and all the way down to who's around you are people wanting to touch her belly? It's like maybe we should create a container here where she's just like, and if she wants to come out of you cave, but if she doesn't, she's good. So anyway, I feel like long-winded way of saying that's probably when I ruminated, and maybe she would say something differently if she were here. I don't think so, but I would lean into that even more. How do I protect this space so that she can have the most credible depth, most profound experience available to her? Right.

Justin McMillen (02:07:37):

That's so good.

Matt Williams (02:07:40):

Not much we can do, right? No, I mean not. And I think it's really interesting. There's another angle there of women who give birth at home without anyone, and then the husband is supposed to step in and learn all these things. And it's like, again, there's no amount of training that would prepare us for that. In my view.

Justin McMillen (02:08:01):

We're built for certain things. Matt, I'm so clear on this. We were naturally selected for certain things. So for example, when Heather was pregnant with Finn, I had this, it went on for a long time, but it was definitely one week where I was obsessed with the neighbors. The front door, whether it was locked, it was hyper, hyper, hyper vigilance. And I grew up in a house where we never locked the doors. There was no fear of anyone. And I turned into this and it was not logical. I mean, it was logical, makes sense. But it was coming from someplace really deep. I felt all of these very natural tendencies come online and I didn't have, with Heather and Finn, it was not an easy period. I was being tested to the highest level. And I think there was lessons there for me that had to happen. And for example, I think a lot of guys take it really personally when women do get upset, but I came to believe because Heather went, especially with Finn. So our story was one day I realized how old I would be if we had a child At that point. I was down in the garage, went upstairs. I was like, let's have a baby. She's like, are you serious? I was like, yeah, three months later she's pregnant. Then it's like, oh my gosh. Now she's looking at me and I can see it in her eyes, and I was in a different place in my life than you, but it was like this, I don't know if I can trust this person. So if I had to say what more the universal things that were, or sorry, the more spiritual things that were going on, it was like, now it's time for me to find out what you're made of.

Matt Williams (02:09:49):

Yes, exactly. Totally.

Justin McMillen (02:09:50):

And so then it was like, I'm going to do everything in my power to break you. And we joke about it now, but I mean, I was sleeping in the garage all the time. She threw a hammer at me. She ripped the cabinet door off the bathroom. We lived in a $900 a month apartment. Dude, it was not fancy, nothing didn't. Although I had some base stuff set up, I wasn't very secure financially, so I hadn't done all the stuff I needed to do. But what I did do is I survived her smashing against me. And I learned to become a rock sucked at it for a long time, even after. But it was really clear, and I remember myself making the decision downstairs in the garage thinking I'm stuck with this person, and she's nothing like what I thought she was. I love her so much. I could say all this, but that it was not an option for me to leave. I made my own commitment to that child. In spite of what? In spite. Yeah. No matter how I felt about her at that moment, there was no way I was leaving.

Matt Williams (02:10:58):

Sure.

Justin McMillen (02:10:58):

So I went through my own transformational thing around caring for and protecting, but I was also being challenged. And it felt very, in hindsight, it was almost like there was this spiritual thing going on where the two of us were demonstrating to each other this weird dance of like... That it somehow was going to be okay. And it was man. And it is.

Matt Williams (02:11:22):

So interesting.

Justin McMillen (02:11:23):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (02:11:24):

I mean, it totally makes sense. I mean, I didn't live through an experience like that, but I understand the feeling that you're talking about and totally makes sense. They're like, okay, you got me or not. It's kind of like that's the energy, right? Yeah.

Justin McMillen (02:11:41):

I think women are so amazing. They're like, someone said to me one time, it's like they're the most predictable creatures. It's like they're cycles. It's like they're actually so predictable that biologically everything happens almost the same way. Yet we are in this straight line in their circle

Matt Williams (02:12:00):

Exactly. Oh, Totally. That's why I love John Gray's book Beyond Mars and Venus. He literally has a chart. He's like, okay, this is what happens. Hormonal levels throughout the month. Here's what you should do. This is when you should have a date. This is when you should let her hang with her friends. And I'm like, dude, why didn't somebody show me this 25 years ago?

Justin McMillen (02:12:19):

I love that you bring that up. I was actually talking at your house the other day to some of the guys about making an app around this, and I feel like we should have an app for guys where you put in dates and then it auto reminds you. Totally. This is a time where you should shut your fucking mouth and just be about action. Exactly

Matt Williams (02:12:38):

Right.

Justin McMillen (02:12:39):

This is a time where tenderness means more than anything, and this is who you should be. We could learn so much and be so much happier. Also reminding ourselves also these amazing periods that are followed by some storms. And so if we knew that we were coming up on an amazing period and that it was going to have an expiration, but it was coming back, it's like that alone. Because typically what happens is a guy ends up in a storm and he is like, this is terrible. I didn't sign up for this. Whatever bullshit guys say, they forget the amazing period, or they think the amazing period is going to somehow stick around not thinking that this is like this circle. And we all could

Matt Williams (02:13:25):

Totally.

Justin McMillen (02:13:26):

I've tried to build spreadsheets around this because I'm nerdy.

Matt Williams (02:13:29):

No. I've used the apps for a while. I used the cycle tracking apps, so I had her account on my, and I would try to follow it that way.

Justin McMillen (02:13:39):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (02:13:39):

But yeah, there's something really brilliant there, and I love his book for this. Again, it's deeply practical. It's like, Hey, this is, and he goes into the detail. If you the expectation, I mean, I'm going to butcher it, but he calls it we time, the time of the month, of course it's around ovulation or whatever, but the expectation of spending time together. So you want to plan the date before, and that will elevate her oxytocin levels and then all these kind of really interesting parts of that, that sort of elevate her hormones in a way that's very positive. Right.

Justin McMillen (02:14:15):

And ours too.

Matt Williams (02:14:16):

Yeah, exactly.

Justin McMillen (02:14:17):

So that's the thing is if we do that right thing there, then we're going to feel better and stronger and...

Matt Williams (02:14:22):

Totally, yeah.

Justin McMillen (02:14:24):

There's so much there, man. And the other side too is if a woman understands a man and understands masculinity and nurtures it, it's sort of like a scary thing, I think for women to do because they feel like it could be giving up their power. But men are so damn loyal, and I am lucky is how, dude, I have this woman who literally, I come home, she could read my mind, she could see my face, she knows, and she doesn't want to pick it apart. She's like, what are you thinking about? She's none of that. She knows where I'm at. And then if there's ever doubt ever, she's like, she looks at me with completely clear and she just tells me that I've got it and it's good. And it's like I instantly am recharged and I just want to do everything in the world to take care of her and the children and make sure that she has to not worry about anything.

(02:15:21):

It's this circle.

Matt Williams (02:15:22):

Totally.

Justin McMillen (02:15:22):

And she's just trying to care for me. And then I'm like, watch this. I'm going to give it back to you about a thousand times over. And it's just this crazy circle. And the dangerous thing is thinking that she's doing something for you, so you could just be you. But that's because people don't consider both sides. So it's like, I'm going to do this for you so you can do this for me so I can be me. And then the whole thing just becomes this flourishing situation.

Matt Williams (02:15:49):

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, I could see that for sure. She's an amazing human being from what I've witnessed. I totally see that.

Justin McMillen (02:15:56):

Yeah, she's great. She's crazy and beautiful, and we both go through our stuff. We're both trying to figure things out, have moments of ebb and flow and what's life about and what are we trying to do, and I don't know what the meaning of all this is. I think the meaning is to have meaning. That's all I got so far. What do you think based on everything, you've been on a journal?

Matt Williams (02:16:23):

Yeah, I don't know. I think of it from the perspective of we're here, right? It's in some ways it's like we won the lottery. We're here in the physical world you know against all odds. We exist on this planet, 93 million miles from the sun. You kidding me? And so we're here to live, and that's why, again, not to try to tie it back too, but this idea of, for me, it resonates. I can get lost in all the things, the meditation, all that stuff. It's like we're here on this physical world to experience this life, physically experience it, the visceral, all the good, the bad, all the things, and go through a journey of self-actualization and evolution. I mean, I don't know. That's what makes sense to me. We're here, don't shut out. Don't sit around for hours a day and close your eyes to the physical reality that's happening around you. Live it. Be in it. Try to be in awe and wonder if you can, but if it's terrible, do that too and cry and grieve or whatever you got to do, and allow that to sort of move you along the path of evolution and self-actualization being a better person.

Justin McMillen (02:17:52):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (02:17:53):

That's kind of how I think about it, but I don't know. It's a tough question.

Justin McMillen (02:17:57):

Yeah, I mean, it's a big one. It's like what is the purpose of, I mean, you're certainly a searcher. You've spent your whole life looking for the next thing. You're highly driven, you're incredibly curious, you're thoughtful, you're humble, and it appears like you just evolving through life, and you somehow realize that this is all just evolution, one step to the next. So...

Matt Williams (02:18:23):

Thank you, man. I appreciate that.

Justin McMillen (02:18:24):

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad to. I wish more people would sit down and have longer conversations.

Matt Williams (02:18:30):

Yeah, I agree.

Justin McMillen (02:18:30):

I've lived by you for a long time and I don't know, I don't know how much I'm sure people get. You always get an essence of what somebody's about, for sure. Yeah. Unless you take the time to really listen to 'em. I mean, I had no idea that I didn't know if you liked or hated your old life. I didn't know if you have a giant ego. I don't know. You don't feel that way. Now you make more sense. So yeah...

Matt Williams (02:18:55):

That's good.

Justin McMillen (02:18:57):

Yeah. Well, I think we'll close this up. I have a couple of questions for you though. Sure. Yeah. So you're an avid reader, so I'm going to put you on the spot. Yeah. I top four books that you'd recommend to somebody within the context of this podcast. So the things that we just talked about, top four books, they don't have to be in order. Just the four that come out of your mind.

Matt Williams (02:19:28):

I would say for sure, without a doubt. Steven Mitchell, translation of the Dao De Jing. Again, I carry that with me everywhere I go for men and women, which I think there's some really insightful stuff in there, but Iron John, to me, is a really powerful foundation for a lot of this stuff that we're talking about. David Hawkins work for sure, for me is there's a simplicity. It helps strip away a lot of the, I could certainly get lost in searching and looking for the answers, and I want to read every sacred text out there and all the things, but his work is just, in my opinion, cuts through. So I would say probably, I mean, it's hard to jump in. He has like 12, 13 books that are all amazing.

Justin McMillen (02:20:27):

He's power versus force.

Matt Williams (02:20:28):

Yeah, I would say Power versus Force. That's his first book. It's probably a good place to start.

Justin McMillen (02:20:33):

Okay. All right. You got one more?

Matt Williams (02:20:36):

Yeah, and then I guess just because it's, it's so near and dear to my heart and this idea of thriving in, I don't know. I can't speak to it enough. I think it's so powerful. To your point just now about the way you feel when your wife builds you up. I mean, it's just like this dynamic of the masculine feminist so powerful. I feel like it just enriches our life in so many ways. If we get it right, we're never going to get it perfectly right. We're always make mistakes. But I would say for sure the way of the Superior Man by David data for the men out there is just, it's incredible.

Justin McMillen (02:21:21):

I have another question for you too, but these are great, and I'm certain people watching this are going to pick some of these up. I'm certainly going to read the data, itching, the translation specifically that you're talking about. As we evolve and we move away from the evolutionary plane of everything, we're just societies taking over and there's all these cultural things that have happened. We're in this period as a species where we're going back now and we're looking at what worked before and we're bringing it back and so it's our time to figure that stuff out as we kind of figure out how to reimplement these old ancestral knowledge into modern day life. That's the key. It will never look like it used to. Look again.

Matt Williams (02:22:09):

Right.

Justin McMillen (02:22:09):

We're not going to wipe the slate clean. It'll always be a new version. But I think integrating, how do we integrate these truths about being a human being, about being a man into the modern world in a way that best feeds our genetics and our souls? And I think I love that. That's a subject that you're interested in, in your way, talking about that. So this is so good. Okay. What about, here's another one for you. So dos.

Matt Williams (02:22:39):

Dos

Justin McMillen (02:22:40):

And don'ts.

Matt Williams (02:22:41):

Oh, Man.

Justin McMillen (02:22:42):

All right. Do's and don'ts of being with a woman while she's pregnant. What are things that you, the top three things that you want to tell men that they should do and the top three things that they should not do?

Matt Williams (02:22:58):

Wow. Okay.

Justin McMillen (02:23:00):

You don't need to be perfect. You don't be perfect. Yeah.

Matt Williams (02:23:03):

I would say, I mean, again, I've made many mistakes.

Justin McMillen (02:23:11):

Can I give you a disclaimer?

Matt Williams (02:23:13):

Yeah, yeah. Please do.

Justin McMillen (02:23:14):

I'm not asking you this because I think you are the expert pro of all things related to this. I'm asking you this because you're fresh. You're very freshly in this, and you ponder, you think a lot. And so I know that you spent time thinking about what worked and what didn't work. So I'm asking you because it's new in your mind. That's it.

Matt Williams (02:23:39):

Yeah. Okay.

Justin McMillen (02:23:40):

So you don't have to apologize or say, I don't know for sure. You can. Yeah. What should a man do?

Matt Williams (02:23:49):

I would say just number one is, yeah, it's funny. April will bust my balls about this later because we literally had conversations. She's like, I don't feel like you're here. And I think that sense becomes even more heightened during this time for a woman. So it's be fully present, be fully present. I think protecting, there's a protection. There's a protection of her experience. I don't know how to articulate that succinctly, but it's like being not the guardian, but as much as you can with the masculine gifts that you have, create a container for her to thrive. Right.

Justin McMillen (02:24:43):

I love that.

Matt Williams (02:24:44):

And there's a lot to that.

Justin McMillen (02:24:45):

I think that's really awesome. That's a perk because Keep going. Sorry, I keep cutting you off. Get me excited.

(02:24:50):

That's Alright.

(02:24:50):

Create a container. That could be a psychological container, could be a physical container, and it speaks of guardian. So be present, create a container. What else would you tell yourself, Hey, that's stuff you should do, or that stuff you did. Well,

Matt Williams (02:25:08):

I think, I dunno what the third one would be. Okay. Maybe let's go to the don'ts and we'll come back to the what should we not do? I think don't try to fix anything within her or her experience. Don't try to fix or convince or anything. It's holding the space.

Justin McMillen (02:25:34):

Don't force.

Matt Williams (02:25:34):

Exactly.

Justin McMillen (02:25:35):

Yeah.

Matt Williams (02:25:36):

I think it doesn't have to be one sided. I think that relationship can still be thriving and quite balanced, but I think there's not having any expectations. It's sort of like this is a season release. All your, don't have expectations, release expectations of what you were talking about. You're not doing it. You want her to do something for you. You're just there because this is a profound experience that she may only have once or four, maybe five times, whatever. And I think all of this is kind of saying the same thing is you're just creating the space for her to thrive without any attachment to some sort of reciprocation or it'll be there. It'll probably be there in a really beautiful way, but you just got to let go of all that. Right.

Justin McMillen (02:26:38):

I love it, Matt. I'll, you want me to tell you what I learned based on what you've said?

Matt Williams (02:26:42):

Yeah, yeah. Sure. Please.

Justin McMillen (02:26:43):

Do. Be a man. Don't try to be a woman. Exactly. Can we make those the three? Exactly. If I was to do this again, that would be the number one thing that you've been saying. It's like, dude, it's okay to just be you. It's okay to not be like, well, man, is he being insensitive? He's not in the room. It's okay. Be a man. Do what feels right and support her and create space and let her be a woman and be her most beautiful self and have these miracles.

Matt Williams (02:27:10):

Totally. Yeah. No, it's so funny you say that because I forgot to speak to that. But that's one thing that's always there for me in this discussion is there's all kinds of weird stuff that happens. Depression, and it's like, well, maybe guys shouldn't be trying to be a mom. Don't try to be a mom. Let her support her to thrive in that space. The only one that can do it. And then you come in and do the things that only you can do. Right. So yeah, it's good. That's awesome. I love it.

Justin McMillen (02:27:41):

It's your stuff. I was like, he's going to put this. He's got it. And it was such a theme, so we had to put it in there. That's good. So we got some great books. We got some great do's and don'ts for supporting a woman or being the counterpart to a woman when they're pregnant. And yeah, this has been a really cool talk. The time flew.

Matt Williams (02:28:04):

It's fun. Yeah, I'm shocked. We just went right through it.

Justin McMillen (02:28:08):

Yeah and it wasn't crazy.

Matt Williams (02:28:10):

No, it was fine.

(02:28:10):

Yeah. I appreciate you very much.

(02:28:12):

Likewise.

Justin McMillen (02:28:13):

I love living by you, and I'm excited for the future of our friendship and getting to know each other.

Matt Williams (02:28:18):

Same. No, I'm extremely grateful, honored to be here, humbled by the conversation. And you've heard me say before, I stand in awe of you and your tribe and your family, and your wife is a powerhouse. Your kids are amazing. And it speaks to what you guys are both doing. It's incredible to see. That's one thing that I think we need more of too, is men more praise to each other.

Justin McMillen (02:28:46):

I appreciate that.

Matt Williams (02:28:47):

And you guys are crushing it from what I see. You're an inspiration to many of us.

Justin McMillen (02:28:52):

So far so good. It could still go south.

Matt Williams (02:28:55):

Not going to happen.

Justin McMillen (02:28:57):

That's always the thing.