Transcript

Justin McMillen (00:00:00):

So Brian MacKenzie, for people that don’t know who you are, you’ve got a pretty amazing history in working in health and human performance. Is that a safe way to put it?

Yeah. You’ve gone from being an athlete yourself and having some success there to learning how to communicate that with the world, which is what I’m most interested in.

(00:00:23):

Your ability to speak about what you do and communicate your ideas is incredible. I think that’s why you’re a voice in this space. And then to writing books and authoring books and then working with everybody from Special Forces to celebrities to high-performance athletes, top in the world across all disciplines. Right? That’s a lot.

Brian MacKenzie (00:00:46):

Yeah, a lot. And it’s a journey here.

Justin McMillen (00:00:49):

So we’ll go into the journey because I think it’s interesting how, somebody I think in my world, right, you have the healed who becomes the healer kind of a thing. And I think in your world, maybe, I don’t want to pin something on you that’s not, but it’s like the athlete who’s done self-study who then becomes the real game changer in that space.

(00:01:10):

And I think that that’s part of who you are.

Brian MacKenzie (00:01:14):

Yeah. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:01:15):

It seems like you experiment yourself.

Brian MacKenzie (00:01:17):

I am the experiment.

Justin McMillen (00:01:18):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brian MacKenzie (00:01:19):

I said I am the experiment. That is for sure. Whether I get in the way of that sometimes or whether I don’t.

Justin McMillen (00:01:24):

Yeah. So what I want to do, because I don’t know that anyone’s really captured this, I think for me I’m so fascinated about what drives people, makes them work. So how did you — the big question I have is — how did you get to where you are now, and how have you evolved as a human across your professional world?

(00:01:49):

And I want to be clear, we’re going to have an hour and a half today, and then I think we’ll probably do this in a couple pieces, so you don’t have to get everything all at once.

Brian MacKenzie (00:02:00):

I’m not worried about it.

Justin McMillen (00:02:01):

Yeah. And we’ll talk through it and we’ll kind of see. So, born and raised in?

Brian MacKenzie (00:02:08):

Well, sorry, I was born in San Diego, but raised in Orange County. I moved up to Orange County around four. At that exact same time, basically, my parents did not know what to do with me.

Justin McMillen (00:02:21):

Why?

Brian MacKenzie (00:02:22):

I was just chaotic energy. Like, ADD, but not — yeah, pretty much.

(00:02:31):

And so my mom put me in this swimming program, and I just took to the water like a fish. And that became one of the things I was doing, amongst other things like soccer, a very little baseball. Baseball bored the shit out of me, so I evacuated that pretty quick.

Justin McMillen (00:02:54):

How old were you when you started swimming?

Brian MacKenzie (00:02:56):

Four.

Justin McMillen (00:02:57):

Oh wow.

Brian MacKenzie (00:02:58):

Yeah, four and a half. I was in a competitive swim team by five. I swam in my first competitive race then.

Justin McMillen (00:03:06):

Okay. But not national level for sure.

Brian MacKenzie (00:03:09):

Yeah. So I remember the first event I had to swim, or one of them, was the IM. And I started by swimming it backwards.

Justin McMillen (00:03:17):

Backwards meaning you started with freestyle, correct?

Brian MacKenzie (00:03:20):

Yeah. I dove in. So you know, it’s butterfly, backstroke, breast, free. And I went free and realized coming off the free that I had done it wrong. And I swam back and got out of the pool. I was just crying as a five-year-old or so. I was crushed or super uncomfortable and insecure about that whole situation.

(00:03:43):

However, I kept swimming. But I grew up at the ocean too. My grandparents lived in Laguna Beach. I was down there every weekend.

Justin McMillen (00:03:51):

Okay.

Brian MacKenzie (00:03:53):

I was down at the beach every weekend. During the summer we were there most of the week. And then San Clemente. I was down there.

Justin McMillen (00:04:00):

South?

Brian MacKenzie (00:04:01):

South. Look — North Laguna.

Justin McMillen (00:04:03):

North Laguna. Okay.

Brian MacKenzie (00:04:04):

Yeah. Northern Laguna, like Main Beach or Cove and Main Beach area. And then Thalia, I’d go and I’d surf. So I had that, and I grew up around all that.

(00:04:20):

Then we moved to North Orange County, Tustin I think, when I was around 12. That was where I went through high school as well. And then as soon as high school ended, I jumped down to Costa Mesa, Newport Beach area.

But all through high school I had sports. Even though I had all these things, I was partying every weekend, hard, with my friends. And I was pretty popular, so I had that going. I had these things going for me. However, the partying really took hold of me.

(00:04:48):

But if it wasn’t for the sports and the competitive side of that and me enjoying that process — and also I grew up skateboarding as well, when it was a crime and when it was this thing you weren’t supposed to do, but the cool kids were doing. I was the first kid in my school, and then you were an outcast if you were like, “Yeah, I got some bad guy.”

Justin McMillen (00:05:23):

He’s a bad kid. Why are you with that?

Brian MacKenzie (00:05:26):

And it wasn’t that I was some great skateboarder, because I wasn’t, but I skateboarded and I loved it. I grew up around punk rock. I grew up in Orange County when skinheads were a big thing. So I was around a lot of that real agnostic, big energy.

As I started with the swimming and got uncomfortable and insecure, I had these little social insecurities but felt at home in this kind of Agnostic Front-type world, even though that’s a band. It’s like this whole thing that was going on at the time.

(00:05:57):

I felt this pull toward that other side of things, but that quickly came to an end when I was young enough, around 23, where I really got introduced to, “Hey, you need to get away from drugs and alcohol. You’re not going to make it.”

(00:06:16):

And I felt at that time, after multiple times of attempting — yeah, we’re getting close to that age — so I jumped into recovery, sobered up, got clean, did a lot of time around the Orange County shuffle, which is like the epicenter of recovery if people don’t know. I mean, there’s more meetings in Orange County than anywhere else in the world. I don’t know if that still holds true, but it probably does.

(00:06:49):

At any rate, I’ve had a very intimate relationship with that. But the moment that began, I was on like the nine-year program in community college and couldn’t grab on to anything that I cared about. I had no real direction to go into a real college to do anything.

(00:07:17):

And then I took an exercise science class, and I got in there and I was like, oh.

Justin McMillen (00:07:24):

You’re a super curious guy though. I mean, that’s why.

Brian MacKenzie (00:07:27):

Yeah. And even that didn’t last long in that structured environment because the questions I was asking weren’t being answered well, and I don’t know that they could have been answered at that point. But I learned enough, and I was able to study, and the internet started becoming a thing where I was learning enough.

But I ended up getting mentored by a guy.

Justin McMillen (00:07:50):

Where are you going with that? I’m curious about your — so you painted this picture of your youth, and I got a sense of the guy you were. If you were talking about, is it like you’re aggressive, or is it just balls to the walls on everything? Are you scary? Are you socializing with people?

Brian MacKenzie (00:08:09):

I had a high social drive, but there’s definitely a bit of a social insecurity toward things. That said, if I’m comfortable with you or comfortable with what I’m doing, I’m all in. There’s this kind of aggressive drive toward, “Let’s push the limits of this.”

Justin McMillen (00:08:25):

Got it.

Brian MacKenzie (00:08:26):

Whatever. So anything you’re doing, like downhill skateboarding, things like that, ruining your knees, it’s all about how hard can you go and where’s the edge.

Justin McMillen (00:08:40):

Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie (00:08:41):

Yes, yes. Where is that edge? And that’s maybe why drugs and alcohol were probably a little dangerous. That sensitivity toward things really was like, oh, that filled that discomfort real quick.

Justin McMillen (00:08:57):

Do you think that you were born with that desire to chase the edge, or do you think it’s learned?

Brian MacKenzie (00:09:10):

I don’t know there’s an answer to this question, but I definitely think there’s a sensitivity side to me that is inherent. There are a lot of learned behaviors along the way that reinforce or help that process. And it doesn’t just need to be drugs and alcohol. In fact, I’ve found out that it’s many more things than drugs and alcohol.

(00:09:36):

That’s really been my journey with trying to understand the side of human performance, per se. When I figured out this is what I wanted to do professionally, it was not easy, as it never really is at first. I had like one client, and I wasn’t making anything. Like, $400 a month.

Justin McMillen (00:10:07):

Right. Being supported, being helped by others. And who is the guy? You said you met a guy.

Brian MacKenzie (00:10:14):

Oh yeah. I was mentored by a guy who was pretty foundational to change. He helped me evolve my thinking in a way that I could not — had I not met him, I’d be potentially thinking the way everybody else thinks, and that becomes a bit dogmatic. His name is Nicholas Romanov.

Justin McMillen (00:10:36):

Before you go into Nick, I’m realizing that people watching this, if they are not familiar with you — I know you have a big presence on the internet and most people know who you are — but for people who don’t, we should start with: what are you kind of known for?

Brian MacKenzie (00:10:52):

Originally, I created a pivot for endurance training by taking in what people were traditionally doing as long, slow distance and turning it into more of a skill-based, intensity or strength-and-conditioning support direction for endurance training that complemented endurance training. And I used a lot more intensity with the endurance versus the long, slow distance.

(00:11:18):

In the endurance world, it created quite a separation of people in what they thought of things. It was very polarizing per se. One group loved it. The other group despised it and said it wouldn’t work.

(00:11:44):

That said, I used it for myself before it was actually something that came out. My first book was done in 2010. I started that journey in 2004, 2005.

Justin McMillen (00:11:58):

Okay, so five years in, you meet Nick. He sort of — and he wants you to not give a shit.

Brian MacKenzie (00:12:05):

I met Nicholas in probably 2001 or 2002. I was running, I was doing stuff, and I asked him for more. Well, I went to one of his clinics, and in one weekend I had had shin splints, and they were gone. Because he’s like, “You move like shit. You need to change this. You’re not working with gravity, you’re working against it.”

(00:12:30):

You’re trying to push. You’re trying to do things that are creating leverage in ways that the tissue, the tendons, all of that, is now going to have to work harder.

Justin McMillen (00:12:41):

And teach you kind of like a cheap running thing?

Brian MacKenzie (00:12:44):

Yeah, yeah. Well, Chi Running was actually created off the idea of what Romanov created, which was Pose Method of running. So I got a Russian introduction to movement and standards that he had created, and worked for him and it ended up working for me.

I used that as kind of a catalyst for understanding a lot of the things that I got into from a performance standpoint, not just endurance training.

(00:13:13):

And now, at this point, I’m mostly known for the stuff I’ve done around what I understand with breathing. Although I don’t really believe it’s about breathing. I think it’s more about the mind than anything. And then the vehicle is this body in which I can work with things or work against them.

(00:13:40):

I’ve worked with a lot of surfers, especially big-wave surfers, and you see how these guys turn on in big waves once they’re on a wave and what happens — and it’s not a freakout. Yet out in the real world, many of us put ourselves in these life-threatening situations that don’t exist. And yet you put somebody in a life-threatening situation and they turn on and come on. It’s crazy.

Justin McMillen (00:14:03):

Billy Kemper, you know him?

Brian MacKenzie (00:14:05):

Yeah, I know Billy.

Justin McMillen (00:14:07):

He was talking about this when he surfs Jaws. He said as soon as he paddles out, every time, he just relaxes. He’s like, “I know it’s crazy, but as soon as I get past the break, everything changes. My whole world slows down. My heart, my everything.” And he says he feels the presence of his mother out there. It’s literally echoing what you’re saying. It’s a special thing.

But if you want to destroy that for a big-wave surfer, it’s just the lead-up to that. That’s the destruction.

Brian MacKenzie (00:14:56):

What do you mean?

Justin McMillen (00:14:57):

The swell, the timing, the thinking. “Am I going to go? Is this going to be the swell?” And then the anxiousness starts to ride up and all of the behavior around it.

Brian MacKenzie (00:15:08):

It’s like putting themselves into this fight or flight, high-level state just to get to this place where they’re willing to fly for more than 24 hours straight and get there. And then they decompress and get in the zone.

Justin McMillen (00:15:21):

Tons of surfers listen to this show. What should surfers be thinking about? How would a big-wave surfer even approach stepping into a situation like that?

Brian MacKenzie (00:15:42):

If I’m a big-wave surfer right now and I’m about ready to surf this wave I’ve never surfed, I think this applies to anybody and anything they’re doing. But in big-wave surfing in particular, it’s like: do I want to be here or not?

You’re putting yourself in a situation that is definitely life-threatening, but you essentially want to be there for that reason, so that you can feel what occurs. But what is it you’re chasing with a feeling? You have to actually be thinking.

(00:16:11):

Thinking precedes feeling, right? All of us have this context, this dialogue that’s going on inside of us all the time that nobody else is privy to. However, some of us can see what’s going on as certain people are showing that magic or calmness about them, where they’ve learned to flow with it.

(00:16:42):

And I think the real question is: do you want to be there? And if you want to be there, then be there. If you’re trying to predict outside of that, that’s where things start to get a little bit crazy.

Justin McMillen (00:17:04):

Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie (00:17:05):

When these guys are in their flow, it’s like there’s nothing that can break them. And most all of them go through this.

Justin McMillen (00:17:13):

Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie (00:17:14):

Flow is the most overused word. It’s really like, stop thinking about flow. Don’t think about flow.

(00:17:26):

I work with a lot of different surfers. I work with a kid now who is a pro surfer. He’s on the CT right now. The big thing with contests is: look, you made the decision to be in something that people who are sitting on the beach are judging you for doing. You don’t have control over that, but you had enough talent and work ethic and drive to get yourself into a position to be out there and surf the way you do, based on a love and a joy that you felt with surfing.

(00:18:08):

So if you just do the thing that you love and not worry about what’s on the beach, no matter what the outcome is — no amount of anxiety has ever changed the future for anybody. Zero. So the ability to let go of that allows somebody to actually get more into that playful mode of allowing themselves to surf.

(00:18:34):

It’s funny because I watched this kid at a contest down in Tahiti, and all we could see were scores. They didn’t have a live feed, so I could watch the scores, and I could literally tell he was going to win each heat he was in, because he wasn’t scrambling around trying to get every single wave that he could like an anxious little —

(00:18:58):

He literally had three scores because he was being very choosy about what he was going to surf and what he wasn’t. He didn’t put himself into that state, and he was making high-scoring waves as a result of that.

Justin McMillen (00:19:16):

That makes sense.

Brian MacKenzie (00:19:17):

That’s the type of surfer he is. That’s the type of person he is. He’s so cool.

Justin McMillen (00:19:22):

I love how you’re starting with, “Do you want to be here?” That’s everything in life.

Brian MacKenzie (00:19:29):

I’m paraphrasing, pulling this from a quote, but I do believe freedom is the act of not doing what you don’t want to do.

Justin McMillen (00:19:44):

Freedom is the act of not doing what you don’t want to do.

Brian MacKenzie (00:19:47):

Correct.

Justin McMillen (00:19:48):

Gotcha.

Brian MacKenzie (00:19:49):

Many of us, you and I included, will make decisions — business, life — that will literally put us into a place where a decision that we were a little reluctant to make, but we made and got into this thing, we end up realizing, “You know what? I don’t want to be here, so I’m going to get out.”

That doesn’t mean I’m making all the right decisions right now. It just means can I learn from these things?

(00:20:20):

One of the questions I’ve asked myself more recently in the last few years is, do I like patient Brian or impatient Brian? Do I like working with people who are patient or impatient? And I don’t like working with impatient people, and I don’t like myself when I’m impatient because I don’t like feeling anxious. I don’t like feeling like I know what it looks like when the wheels come off.

(00:20:46):

For myself, I attempt to multitask. That’s a human behavior. So when I see other people multitasking, I know what’s going on. They’ve taken on too much. This is what compensation is. And that’s what breathing is. Breathing is nothing more than an indicator of what’s going on with somebody deeper inside.

(00:21:12):

Breathing is a compensation toward energy, toward how we’re using energy, toward how we’re managing stress as a whole. So it becomes very easy, if you spend enough time with something like breathing, to see that it’s telling me a story of exactly what’s going on with the human being because I know how they’re regulating right now, and biochemically we can see on a basic level what’s going on.

Justin McMillen (00:21:40):

That’s so cool, Brian. I love everything that you’re getting into, because I’m really interested in the idea that breathing happens — and this is obvious stuff, but it’s fascinating. Breathing happens without thinking about it, almost like 20,000 times a day on cruise control, right?

But then there’s also this ability to consciously grab the wheel and start controlling. And then that seems to be the keys or the control over all sorts of other physiological things that are going on, and ultimately even the way that you think, right?

Brian MacKenzie (00:22:24):

Yes. You could produce a feedback loop really quickly. Like, I’m going to consciously breathe this way, it’s going to affect me this way, which then is going to help me feel this way, which will help me breathe this way.

The tricky part, especially with the world you work in, is that a lot of these guys are coming from a standpoint of, “I don’t want to feel like shit anymore.” That’s a slippery slope, because feeling is always preceded by context. There has to be dialogue inside that’s going on. And that’s usually part of some self-abandoning process that we all live in.

(00:23:10):

But it’s really interesting because I can take breathing and slow things down to the point where I can really ask myself the question: am I safe?

Justin McMillen (00:23:23):

Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie (00:23:24):

Ultimately I know that because I’ve done enough work to be able to take a single breath and be like, “Am I safe right now?” If I’m not safe, I’m going to be clicking on other modes. It’s like when the big-wave surfer jumps on the big wave, you click into that mode of, I do the things that I’ve trained for.

That’s why I go into a gym. That’s why I’ve worked in the firearms community. That’s why I’ve been in self-defense. You go into these things so that you can click into these worlds if you ever are in a situation like that.

Justin McMillen (00:24:00):

Oh, that’s interesting.

Brian MacKenzie (00:24:02):

So really it’s like, how can I use the breathing to help me get to reality and understand how I’m more or less probably torturing myself than anything?

And although I might feel like crap with something, the breathing, when it’s there just to change how I feel — I’ve seen the same things in the breathing world that I’ve seen in addiction. Quite literally, people who are hyperventilating their way through life to try and change how they feel in the morning because they don’t like how they feel. That road doesn’t end well.

Justin McMillen (00:24:49):

Do you, when you’re in line in a coffee shop or something like that and you see people, do you ever just obsessively watch how people are breathing? Like, that guy’s got his mouth open?

Brian MacKenzie (00:25:01):

Yeah. I’m so weird. I just see it. I don’t see it in a judgmental way anymore. I see it in a way where I pick up on it automatically and I’m like, that’s interesting. I wonder what they’re stressed about.

Justin McMillen (00:25:16):

Like, you just know what stress breathing looks like and what it doesn’t.

Brian MacKenzie (00:25:20):

Yeah. And it’s a very subtle thing. But it’s also a postural thing. My background and the reason I got into breathing was because of my background in understanding human movement.

I put on a resistance breathing device and when I drew a breath in, I organized and sat up as I drew that breath in, because you have to, right? Fill your lungs. The diaphragm circumnavigates the rib cage and it also attaches, in part because of that, to the spine.

(00:25:54):

So if I’m to get access to that diaphragm and use my intercostals in a more effective or efficient manner, I would be sitting up. I would organize much differently.

This is why we train. I’m trying to train for a better, stronger position. It just so happens that if I applied resistance to somebody breathing — as I did with myself — my head exploded because I’m like, oh my gosh, I have something to give to athletes who I’m working with all over the world right now.

(00:26:30):

Something to organize and teach core principles without having to say, “Hey, we’re going to move in this particular way to do this thing.” No, you’re just going to breathe through this thing and you’re going to automatically organize a little bit differently and get stronger in this position so that ultimately, when you’re paddling out, you’re breathing far more optimally.

(00:27:05):

Or whatever your sport is. MMA, for example. It’s wild. We were talking on the beach this morning, like the transition I’ve seen with MMA and how guys and gals, literally, when they’re walking back to their team, most of them are regulating their breathing at this point. Because it’s been introduced to that community at a high level, and then it’s transcended down through that.

(00:27:34):

People pick up on it because it works. It makes sense. And what more of a sport where life is basically on the line? You’re fighting. That’s a very heightened situation. That’s a great experiment to do because you’re dealing with somebody who’s truly in fight or flight.

(00:27:56):

And then cardiovascular fitness and dancing within all of those realms. That’s why I love watching the fight world and being involved to the degree that I am. Because that is a situation where it’s real, and yet the best in the world are doing exactly what the big-wave surfers are doing.

Justin McMillen (00:28:20):

You wouldn’t know. You wouldn’t know that they’re so calm.

Brian MacKenzie (00:28:24):

Yeah. Because this is their home. They’ve trained this. They’ve played with this. Versus you take them out of that, then you start to get them bored. And that’s where they start to get destructive and be an addict or not. We all have these tendencies toward things.

So what tools do we have at our disposal to bring us back to: what’s the context of the container right now? Am I actually in danger or am I actually here? Why am I breathing? I can control my breathing enough to regulate my biochemistry, and then I start changing how I feel. Then I can actually be like, oh, I’m safe.

(00:28:59):

Even though my finances are shit right now, I do have a roof over my head. And I’ve always been a killer, meaning I’ve always been somebody who can build things and create and do something and get myself out of trouble.

Justin McMillen (00:29:14):

Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie (00:29:15):

There’s that situation. Or maybe you are in prison.

Justin McMillen (00:29:18):

Yeah. No, this makes so much sense to me. And I love how you say that. There’s like modes. I’m going to oversimplify what you said here, and that’s all right, but it’s like you’re in a mode, you’re in a headspace, you check in on your breathing, “Am I safe?” Yes, I’m safe. And then if you’re not, then it’s like you flip that switch and now there’s this performance mode.

Brian MacKenzie (00:29:42):

Yeah. That you trained for. Right. So I’m ready for this. I just flip over into this place now.

Justin McMillen (00:29:50):

Yeah. And it’s go time.

Brian MacKenzie (00:29:52):

Yes. The interesting thing is, you put an athlete into a situation that they really want to be in, you don’t ever have to ask yourself that question once you’ve dropped into a wave. Once you go to stand up and drop in, there is no — you’re there. It doesn’t matter.

(00:30:08):

Once it’s go, once you’re in it, there is no questioning it. It’s the thinking that’s happening prior to that. You’re overthinking it. The moment we begin to overthink, it’s like: do I want to be here? Then just do it. Just be here. All I have to do is pay attention. All I have to do is observe.

(00:30:25):

Oh, I see that peak coming in. I need to change my position. I’m going to get over here, or I’m going to have my tow partner set me up this way. Don’t overthink. Go toward that wave. Do the thing you’re here to do. You’ll know to go or not. And even if you make a mistake, you’re there with all the training that you’ve been there with anyway.

Justin McMillen (00:30:40):

Sure. I wonder if when people get injured — ACL tear or anything — then suddenly the head starts to go, right? Psychology is a massive part of what you do.

Brian MacKenzie (00:30:58):

Yes.

Justin McMillen (00:30:59):

Do you also work with people on that? I think about Billy. Injured or not, there’s this “I’ve got to get back to a state where I’m not thinking,” so when I drop into the wave that I’m able to do it, or to be simple again. Like a shoulder tear and I’m starting to deadlift again. How can somebody that’s had an injury use the things that you know to prepare themselves to get back in the game, even if they’re not a professional athlete?

Brian MacKenzie (00:31:38):

Yeah. Maybe, you know, moving is medicine. There should be foundational things — well, should is the wrong term — having foundational things for moving. Meaning I’ve got something. Walking for me is foundational, right?

Walking will tell me exactly where I’m at. Even though I may wake up feeling like crap, if I go walk, I can feel completely different after that walk. Or I could still feel pretty run down and I’ll know what I’m going to do that day for training.

(00:32:18):

Having a mindset that I have to do something a specific way is a foolproof way for failure or getting in your own way. Acceptance of where you are at and being able to set and get to those foundational things so that you can — and I’m not saying somebody who is an MMA athlete or surfer needs to go walk. What are some things? Maybe it’s mobility in the morning.

(00:32:47):

Are you able to do these things? Can this be a way of getting you to understand your body and where you are at? And so when I do these things, the irony is that I’ve integrated breathwork into these things. What is my breathing doing? Can I maintain a full breath as I’m in this position? Yoga has been doing this for 5,000 years. Get into a position, asana, and be able to breathe in that position.

(00:33:27):

If I can’t breathe, if I’m in that position gasping, you don’t own that position.

Justin McMillen (00:33:36):

It’s more like —

Brian MacKenzie (00:33:39):

Right. That’s very different than huffing and puffing my way through that. And when we start huffing and puffing or we don’t have control of our breathing, trust me, you don’t have control of much that you just don’t know.

I’ve had too many tests under metabolic carts to know, oh, this guy’s respiration rate is through the roof and we’re at like 50%, and his CO2 levels are on the floor already, so I already know he’s using up all his energy. He’s no longer oxidative. He’s in a fight-or-flight situation.

Justin McMillen (00:34:17):

Dude, you’re tripping me out because I’m thinking about how we all want ways to measure or self-diagnose, or for other people to be able to measure our health. But what your talent — what I’m hearing from you — and I think it’s so incredible, is this idea that if you’re talking about respiration and all these things as a way to check in with self in a morning walk or in a yoga pose, these are the kinds of things people talk about, but they’re not organized into an idea.

(00:34:49):

And I would not at all be surprised if you don’t pioneer an entire field of how to use breath and that sort of thing as a diagnosis or a tool for self-diagnosis. I mean, you already are.

Brian MacKenzie (00:35:11):

Well, I was —

Justin McMillen (00:35:13):

Your next book, I want to be in the acknowledgment.

Brian MacKenzie (00:35:16):

No, it’s a diagnostic in anything you do. If I go on a — there’s a medical device to do that.

(00:35:30):

I work with a lot of executives, CEOs, and the amount of these guys that do some form of walking — “I have a walking desk” — however, they’re all talking when they’re doing it. Talking and walking, or breathing out of one’s mouth and walking, versus breathing out of one’s nose and walking, are two very different things.

(00:35:55):

The body is under much more physiological stress when I’m walking and talking than it is when I’m not, or when my mouth’s open versus my nose is doing the work. If I’m walking and I can’t get multiple full breaths through my nose, you can bet your nervous system is pretty locked down at that point.

Justin McMillen (00:36:28):

So when you’re saying that, can’t get a full breath — I notice sometimes if I’m trying to take a full breath, or I’m getting ready to have a meeting with somebody that I’m feeling — which by the way, I’m going to use “Do I want to be here?” as a new mantra for me, so thank you — but I’ll notice I’ll try to take what I think is going to be a deep breath, and it won’t. It’s so tight. It just wants to stop right here. What’s that? And how do you change that?

Brian MacKenzie (00:36:56):

Your nervous system. You probably don’t realize, because of patterns that you’ve set up and how you function, how we function. The only reason I’ve gotten to where I’ve gotten with what I’m about to understand is because I’ve walked through this myself.

I know what it’s like to function where it’s like I’m trying to do everything at once and saying yes to all these great, shiny, beautiful, sexy things that are coming at me. And that pattern comes with consequence.

(00:37:27):

Nature isn’t comforting and nature isn’t destructive. Nature’s consequential. That’s the first law of nature. The preeminent law of nature. Consequence. That’s it.

(00:37:49):

If I come into doing a lot of things and saying yes, even though they’re positive, that still comes with consequence. You’ve got an MMA guy who trains five times a day one day, and then the next day he’s cooked and none of his physiological responses are responding in the way that we want them to for an elite athlete who’s training at that point. So he’s got to take a day off.

(00:38:22):

Coming back to this: I’ve got these patterns, you’ve got these patterns, that hey, there’s a bit more restriction. And that’s where breathing doesn’t lie. If I can’t get a full breath, my nervous system is more than likely more sympathetically charged. So my HRV’s down, my muscle tone — or there’s more tension — which means I’m more locked down, which means I’m stiffer. So I’m not going to be able to fulfill this in a way that would be optimal.

(00:38:59):

And that’s the part about being an elite athlete. Being an elite athlete is making those steps toward being able to recover to make that bigger, bigger, bigger window of tolerance, versus I’m living on the edge right here.

Justin McMillen (00:39:17):

So and I need — I really need —

Brian MacKenzie (00:39:21):

You don’t need. You want. Want is the thing. How much do you want it? And where’s your check-in? Where’s your thing that’s going to guide you in that way?

For me, what I learned was something like walking and that check-in. I’ve done plenty of meditation. I’ve done breathwork for over an hour straight. None of it even comes close to walking without my phone on and no goal. Just wander. Go wander for an hour, hour and a half. That’s it.

(00:39:58):

Around your hood, you’re like the odd guy. But humans stick to similar patterns. We stick to the thing. And then I catch myself doing it, so then I go another way and you see something new. And I’m filtering all the stuff that’s in my brain.

We’ve looked at a study done that showed 20 minutes of sitting calmly, basically meditative, with the brain, and 20 minutes of walking and the brain. The 20 minutes of sitting is great, but the 20 minutes of walking is what you want.

Justin McMillen (00:40:31):

It makes sense. You’re moving blood.

Brian MacKenzie (00:40:35):

First off, we’re moving things through in a way we wouldn’t normally move them. So we’ve got that blood flow. But you’re doing it in a way that’s still parasympathetic dominant, if your mouth is shut. The moment that mouth opens, you move into a more sympathetic tone.

So if I’m talking, as we’re talking, I’m in a heightened arousal state. You’re in a heightened arousal state. That’s what happens. I can literally look at the data throughout a day when I don’t move as much and I talk more. It literally says my physiological stress was really high that day versus the day I move more and don’t talk as much. Super low.

Justin McMillen (00:41:16):

Yeah. Well, you have a contagious sort of enthusiasm too. When you get going, I can feel it. It’s palpable.

So a lot of the work we do is based on evolutionary theory, the idea that genes are pretty much the same for thousands of years now, modern society changed. It makes sense that walking would do some positive things for us, since for all of human history we’ve been walking for quite a while. It’s just not sexy.

Brian MacKenzie (00:41:50):

Right.

Justin McMillen (00:41:51):

Nobody wants to. I think it’s something like eight miles a day for men and something like five and a half or six for women.

Do you do it in the morning, you said?

Brian MacKenzie (00:42:06):

Yeah, typically in the morning.

Justin McMillen (00:42:08):

That’s like first thing you do? Anything else before that?

Brian MacKenzie (00:42:11):

I move all my joints around in the morning. I go through this whole Shaolin thing I learned a year ago. Moving the joints, getting the head clear. I’ll have my coffee before I head out. I just have a shot of espresso, and then I head out on a walk with the dog, and I’m just gone for an hour, hour and a half.

(00:42:41):

Then I come back and I’m ready to get after the day. And I know exactly, based on how I feel and then looking at my schedule, where my openings are. Since my office is my gym, it’s like —

Justin McMillen (00:42:54):

Your lab.

Brian MacKenzie (00:42:55):

Yeah, my lab. So then I go at it.

Justin McMillen (00:43:01):

This is good. I mean, people are obsessed with all the nose breathing stuff, which we have to talk about. I want to get your take on what is the truth about this, because now everyone’s got the things on their nose and it’s a whole thing.

But before we go into that, the morning routine — I think we could all benefit from hearing what you have to say around how to prep yourself for having a good day. There’s a lot of theories. Some people are jumping in ice first. Other people are doing breathwork. You’re talking about going for walks. Do you have thoughts on an ideal morning protocol?

Brian MacKenzie (00:43:42):

It varies for everybody. We could break it down into strata of types of people. This really covers thousands of different people who could hear this and be like, “I am this type, and so I’ll do this.”

I like to look at the facts of things. What’s happening when we wake up? What’s going on physiologically? Cortisol is really what rises in the morning to wake us up.

Justin McMillen (00:44:17):

In general?

Brian MacKenzie (00:44:18):

In general. If I’m getting some sort of decent sleep, cortisol is what’s rising in the morning. If I’m getting pretty shitty sleep, that’s going to be much higher, and in fact it may not have lowered much. So what am I doing to kind of lower that at first so that I’m not in this overly stressed state right now?

(00:44:47):

Some people wake up and it can be super low pretty quick. You take an elite endurance athlete like a triathlete and you’re probably going to see incredibly low cortisol levels. And because you will see, coincidentally, very low lactate levels.

Justin McMillen (00:45:00):

That’s interesting because people say that endurance athletes are chronically stressed and would wake up feeling —

Brian MacKenzie (00:45:06):

Not if they’re elite. They’re not if they’re recovering pretty damn well, because the volume and the amount of training they’re doing, they’ve worked over time to get to that level. So that means the aerobic foundation is massive, which means if that aerobic foundation is well built, the mitochondria are functioning well, you’re working oxidatively well, you’re metabolically flexible.

(00:45:39):

These are giants. These are people who can burn fat upwards of ten calories a minute. Most people working out are probably around three to four calories a minute, fat max, before it crosses over into carb burning. Carbs aren’t a bad thing. We want to be metabolically flexible.

(00:46:01):

Think of it from a work standpoint. Four hundred watts on a bike. You take a Tour de France rider — Tadej Pogačar, who’s the guy in cycling right now — that dude can hold four to six hundred watts for like 20, 30 minutes, probably 400 watts for maybe an hour. I bet most human beings wouldn’t put out 400 watts for a minute. That means for him to get stressed and cross over from that aerobic side requires a whole lot of specific load.

(00:46:42):

But because he’s so aerobically efficient, his lactate levels are low, so the cortisol levels, also the stress levels, are fairly low when he’s not in these intense situations.

You go look at freedivers. They’re some of the calmest people in the world. They’ve been doing a lot of breath-hold work. They work on bringing the stress levels down.

Justin McMillen (00:47:17):

That would be interesting to look at.

Brian MacKenzie (00:47:20):

Yeah. Their morning cortisol readings more than likely aren’t as high as somebody who’s running hot in the morning.

Justin McMillen (00:47:38):

What you’re saying makes total sense. Somebody who has a high level of fitness is going to be more resilient to external stressors across the board.

Brian MacKenzie (00:47:48):

That’s why every single doctor in the world agrees, and every shred of research out there agrees, that exercise is the number one thing to combat disease. Fundamentally, number one.

Justin McMillen (00:48:03):

Right. And you’re connecting the mechanism — because they’re not stressed, their body is not going to be in enough of a sick or weak state to allow their immune system to — everything functions at a higher level. It’s incredible what the human body, what biology is capable of.

Brian MacKenzie (00:48:25):

It’s actually quite a paradox, to be honest. We’re so resilient on one level and then so fragile on another. If you’re pushing and paying attention, life will take you to levels you wouldn’t even be able to conceive of.

And yet there is a fragility that if you’re not paying attention and you’re continuing to torture and beat yourself up, you’re going to wind up with disease or other things. Like I’m eating like crap, I’m around chemicals, whatever. Or I step off the curb and get hit by a car. Bam, it’s over. So quickly.

(00:49:02):

Everything’s consequential. Being aware of how quick life can go, but how robust and amazing we are in essence, means you can actually manipulate these things.

So it’s like I look at things like, how is somebody responding when they’re waking in the morning? What’s their type? Is this somebody who’s going to benefit from walking first or getting some cold? But everybody probably could use some light.

(00:49:49):

Getting people exposed to the sun. It’s so interesting because there are so many people that I see when I go walking, especially down at the beach, that are covering themselves up first thing in the morning from the sun and wearing sunglasses and totally covered. I’m like, whoa, these are tied in, but they’re not getting the point.

Justin McMillen (00:50:08):

Yeah. They’re taking themselves out of that.

Do you touch your phone before —

Brian MacKenzie (00:50:15):

I’ll look at it in the morning because of my relationship to clients and the type of service I offer, which is more like a concierge service, changing things on the fly. I’m available to some people like that, but it never really gets in the way. I just go make sure there’s no emergencies or anything I need to deal with. Typically there’s not.

But not first thing in the morning. I go get water, I start moving my joints around. Those are the buy-ins to go look at my phone. Then I can go.

Justin McMillen (00:50:49):

Yeah. Steps first.

Brian MacKenzie (00:50:51):

Yeah, I have steps toward those things.

Justin McMillen (00:50:54):

Okay, so average person, not elite athlete, wakes up and the walk is like a self-assessment tool.

Brian MacKenzie (00:51:01):

Yeah, yeah. For people that run hot, who are high energy, walking is typically the first very good thing for those types of folks to do.

Justin McMillen (00:51:15):

What about the opposite of that?

Brian MacKenzie (00:51:17):

That would be more like cold exposure.

Justin McMillen (00:51:19):

And then how would a person assess themselves through that? Is there a type?

Brian MacKenzie (00:51:24):

Yeah. You wake up, you’re pretty tired in the morning always. You’re a groggy person. You don’t wake up ready to go.

Justin McMillen (00:51:31):

Okay.

Brian MacKenzie (00:51:32):

That’s more along the lines of getting some spark into you, getting those levels up. So two types of humans. One is waking up kind of groggy and tired, maybe you didn’t feel like you slept that well. That guy probably could be good to jump in ice.

Justin McMillen (00:51:49):

Yeah, yeah.

Brian MacKenzie (00:51:50):

Or you’re on the road and traveling and working and you’re waking up groggy and you’re like, “Oh dude, I’ve got to be on today.” Like a cold shower in your hotel. Bing, bam.

Justin McMillen (00:52:01):

Gotcha. And then the other side — if you wake up groggy, does that mean cortisol is low?

Brian MacKenzie (00:52:12):

I don’t know, because I wouldn’t say that. I’ve still seen people’s lactate levels higher. I don’t do cortisol tests. I’ll do lactate checks. There are specific levels. You’ll see elite endurance athletes below 1.0 on a lactate meter. Four is your lactate threshold. Like 2.0, 2.2 is your aerobic threshold. So having people below that aerobic threshold is typically what you want because you know somebody is a lot more oxidative.

Justin McMillen (00:53:01):

Right, so they’re not as stressed per se.

Brian MacKenzie (00:53:04):

Right.

Justin McMillen (00:53:05):

That’s amazing.

Brian MacKenzie (00:53:07):

This can definitely be correlated into HRV too. You’re going to see a lower HRV score with somebody who’s more stressed in the morning. You’re going to see a higher HRV reading in someone who’s hypo the next morning. They’ll have a huge jump in their HRV score.

Justin McMillen (00:53:26):

You would trip if you saw mine. It’s so low.

Brian MacKenzie (00:53:31):

There’s nothing wrong with that. It’s more or less your fingerprint of things. Think of HRV as your fingerprint.

Justin McMillen (00:53:47):

Okay. And also you’re talking about Oura HRV, right?

Brian MacKenzie (00:53:51):

Yeah. Very different. Have you ever done legit —

Justin McMillen (00:53:55):

I did back in the day and I got some app, I forgot which one it was, but I had the most common chest strap. So I’m in the 20s and 30s on the Oura, and I was 76 on a very high-level HRV reading the other day, for four hours after waking up, sitting back in a chair. So I’d been up, had coffee, and I was still at like 76.

How would you know if — because what I saw, I was like, oh, this is probably because I’m sympathetic nervous system.

Brian MacKenzie (00:54:38):

Let’s not discount the fact that, yes, you are running around in survival mode most of the time. You’ve got a lot going on. You’ve indicated to me that it’s hard for you to even respond on text message. You’ve hit that critical mass stage.

Justin McMillen (00:55:02):

Well, that’s called overwhelmed.

Brian MacKenzie (00:55:04):

Yeah. And you’re never not playing in nature. Just to be clear, you are nature. The consequences are there.

Justin McMillen (00:55:13):

Well, no, this is great. This covers everything I say. “I am nature.” I literally made a shirt with my — we were selling shirts that said “Nature” in the middle and the “I” was capitalized.

Brian MacKenzie (00:55:29):

Nice. So it’s “I am nature,” right? You can’t run from this. It is what it is. And that doesn’t mean your HRV is going to jump up to this great place where you feel like you’re going to — trust me, if it got to that place, you’d still be self-torturing yourself.

(00:55:47):

Can we get you to let go of that inner dialogue around, “This is such shit,” and go, well, why am I doing as much as I’m doing, when maybe I could use a little more boundaries around what meetings I’m taking, when I’m taking them, the times I’m taking them? I don’t know your life, so I’m not going to schedule you or work with that. That’s for you to work through.

But your physiology is telling you a story. Most of us are getting hooked into high stress, chronic stress, and using that as a catalyst for energy drive.

Justin McMillen (00:56:28):

So we’re living off of adrenaline and cortisol.

Brian MacKenzie (00:56:31):

Correct.

Justin McMillen (00:56:32):

Stop, because you’re right.

Brian MacKenzie (00:56:34):

It’s not about being right. It’s all I know, really.

Justin McMillen (00:56:39):

That’s a painful truth. But I don’t want to be chill. I don’t want to be — that’s in my head, trust me.

Brian MacKenzie (00:56:45):

Trust me, you do want to get calmer. It allows you to see things that you can’t see right now.

I watch this with my behavior around everything, especially with my wife. That reactivity or that thing that I did that wasn’t her, that was the thing I allowed to happen in the car, or that person I didn’t say no to, and I kept doing that thing, and then I ran myself short on time, and then I got here in a rush, and now I’m reactive. It has nothing to do with her. It’s the state I put myself in.

(00:57:25):

We get hooked into it because what happens is we go through what’s called the stimulus-response. The stimulus-response starts as an event, whatever the event is, and then the nervous system is the first thing to respond to that. So you’re visually seeing me, you’re hearing me. The nervous system is interpreting that and feeding that to a brain which sits behind a wall of darkness trying to interpret this outside world and predict on it.

(00:58:00):

So you go through this nervous system response to it, then there is a behavior and an action toward that. That behavior and action is the first stage of the stress response. That stage is going to happen for everybody.

Pretend we’re in our car, we’re driving, and somebody cuts in front of you. You automatically slam on the brakes, grab the steering wheel with both hands. That’s an automatic response from your nervous system.

Justin McMillen (00:58:33):

Sure.

Brian MacKenzie (00:58:34):

Your behavior after that is, “Fuck you,” or “I’m just going to let that go,” or “Oh sure, that guy’s in a rush, whatever, I’ll let him go.” Those are two very different responses, although there’s a multitude of responses that could be occurring. That is the beginning of my stress response.

Now the second part of that is the recovery phase of the stress response. The behavior, the action that occurs — think of it as lifting weights. I go in and I lift weights. Well, if I’m done lifting weights, I go through that growth cycle, the anabolic phase of that. So I get these resilience hormones and neurotransmitters and things that start to occur in the body that say we’re going to heal.

(00:59:22):

Inflammation is a part of that process. It’s a large part of it. Inflammation isn’t a bad thing. It means you’re healing. And yet it’s given this name of, “Oh, inflammation is this bad thing.” No. It means we’re healing.

So then you go into this resilience phase. But you and I decide we want to fester on what happened in the car, or we want to react to the next person that comes in. So here’s what happens: we go right back to incorporating the stress response, and you literally block those resilience hormones and neurotransmitters and things that are going on. So then you get caught in this loop of feeding a false energy.

(01:00:08):

A lot like coffee. I learned through trial, just paying attention, I would typically have like two or three shots of espresso in the morning — not back to back to back — but it was like, just to make sure everybody’s clear, I’m not kidding. I would have a shot of espresso in the morning and get that feeling that caffeine brings on. You’re like, oh, I love that feeling.

Well, what does caffeine do? It blocks the adenosine receptors, which is actually just blocking the thing that’s telling me I’m tired. That’s why you feel wired.

(01:00:44):

What I figured out was I’d have that shot, but the second shot, I wouldn’t get any of that feeling. The third coffee, I definitely wasn’t getting any of that feeling. I was just getting more jittery than the first shot and ramped up. So I was basically creating this false sense of energy, which is exactly what chronic stress is.

(01:01:03):

You can’t get that sympathetic arm of the nervous system to come down all the way, so the parasympathetic arm can’t really come on. So when stress begins, sympathetic drive goes up and then it comes down. And when the sympathetic goes up, the parasympathetic drops down. But then as the sympathetic drops out, the parasympathetic arm comes on. This is where the rebound or supercompensation phase can happen.

(01:01:39):

And we’re retarding that so much that it never is able to come back on. So from a nervous system standpoint, I’m more sympathetically charged. I’m living on high stress. I’m living in fight or flight mode. I’m living as if I’m in a threat. And I love it because it drives me, versus I learned to bring it down so that the things I do want to charge hard on, I get to.

Justin McMillen (01:02:20):

No, no, no. It’s there. It’s just when we live in this chronic state, it’s hard. It’s actually ready to explode. Correct. So I’m going to fully disclose: I have like a ball of tension in me. Or energy.

And the places that it typically comes out — and I’m pretty tired right now, this last two weeks have been really exhausting — but if I was in that state, it’s like a ball of tension, and then anytime I get to talk about something I love or I get to teach my class, or I teach in here, whatever it is, it’s like the fuel. It’s the engine for release.

(01:03:05):

And oftentimes it’s beautiful. When you do anything for 10, 12 years, you get good at talking about it, so it’s like a fire hose. But it can also be artful. And I like that feeling.

That’s my — the other side, and I don’t do this so much anymore. Having four kids teaches you an incredible amount of patience. But anger, right? It’s like an explosion of anger. And it’s like, wow, how is that possible? Because I can mask things really well. So how does that open up?

(01:03:44):

For myself, I would say I hold this sort of ball of that energy, probably fueled by coffee, all this stuff. That’s my sympathetic nervous system. And then there’s just doors that open that kind of fly out into the world. Sometimes it comes out in creativity, other times it comes out in the long run. And the thing that I’m afraid of is letting go of that.

Brian MacKenzie (01:04:14):

Yeah. So what you’re saying — that’s your identity.

Justin McMillen (01:04:18):

Yeah. This is good. This podcast is going to change my life.

Brian MacKenzie (01:04:20):

That’s essentially why people do start these things.

What you are describing is, in essence, what you’ve learned how to fuel yourself off of. But to be clear, I did for a decade. I traveled around the world teaching and doing things that I loved. However, I was also trying to run a gym. I was also trying to manage some other things. And I had no business managing all that stuff.

(01:04:44):

There was consequence for that. I was fueling myself off of this false energy, not realizing that I had not said no to some things that I really wish I would have said no to, had boundaries around that, so that I had time with myself to actually filter through that process. So that when I did go teach, or did that thing that was going and speaking and talking in front of people, I could do it better.

(01:05:22):

I’ve worked with a number of stand-up comics and people who are high-level presenters, where we strategize especially after what they did, because most people, especially stand-up comics, after they’re done, they can’t come down.

Justin McMillen (01:05:39):

Yeah. They can’t.

Brian MacKenzie (01:05:41):

So what do they do? They go into the green room, they play video games, or they’ll go drinking. And it’s like, okay, you’re just driving that. How about you go and literally get a hold of and regulate yourself? You can regulate. You can bring it down. Then you can go play video games or do whatever you want, if you want to.

(01:06:00):

However, you probably feel a lot different if you go spend 10, 15 minutes — why not go for a walk and shut your mouth after the show?

Justin McMillen (01:06:09):

Or so being — yeah, sorry.

Brian MacKenzie (01:06:11):

Yeah. In essence, that starts to retrain the mindset. It allows you to go, “Oh my God, I came off of that thing I just did.” Because I still go and talk all over the world, and when I’m done speaking, if the opportunity is there for me to go to my room or go somewhere else, I do it. If the opportunity isn’t there and I’m supposed to go talk with others or run a workshop afterwards, I go do that then.

(01:06:34):

I teach eight hours a day and be in front of a crowd, so I can go and do a one-hour speaking engagement. But I can tell you right now, what I’ve learned is I am more drained after that than I am doing fucking CrossFit. And that’s from paying attention and being able to go, “Oh, I’m going to do this thing. I need to be in order.”

(01:07:00):

I’m going to go into this meeting today and I’ve got all this stuff, and some of us don’t have the luxury of shutting all that down. But there is some place where I could bring that noise down to where I can filter out and really focus and be like, okay, in between these, even though I’ve got five minutes, I’m just going to go breathe. I’m going to do some box breathing. I don’t care.

(01:07:23):

It’s okay if I don’t feel like I can get a full breath, or I’ll lay down and do it. Then it’s over. Do this for five minutes. I’m betting the size or amount of air you’re able to bring in is greater. And if that be the truth, that means the tension is letting go. That means it’s coming down. And that’s the thing we start to see with breathing — it really is a remote control to the nervous system to let off the parking brake while I’ve got the gas on.

Justin McMillen (01:07:54):

Right.

Brian MacKenzie (01:07:55):

That’s what we all learn to do in this world. This society we live in is all about self-abandonment and pedal to the metal while the parking brake’s on.

Justin McMillen (01:08:05):

Yeah. It’s like I gotta make — you know, adaptive. I just found out you don’t have to play it.

Brian MacKenzie (01:08:12):

Yeah. And you can do real well.

Justin McMillen (01:08:15):

This subject, I think, is perfect where we’re at. The time went by super fast. But we’ll come back to it. I’d love to explore with you because this is a subject that is so universal.

I think of a firefighter. We work with first responders, right? So you have firefighters, police officers, first responders who are going through hell psychologically, and they really want to get help. They know they’re in a bad spot, but they’re afraid that if they were to go to a psychologist and become vulnerable, that it would translate to vulnerability when they’re on shift.

(01:09:03):

Like, “I’m not ready to open that can of worms and talk about this particular bad car accident I saw, this child that passed away, or this terrible thing, because the moment I do, I think the floodgates are going to open, and I’m not going to be strong enough to go back and put on my uniform.”

(01:09:21):

And I think same thing with SOF community. These guys are like, “I need to be a tough son of a bitch. I cannot afford to sit down and even address or assess or think about the idea that I may have issues physiologically, whatever, because the moment I do that, it’s like everything falls apart.”

(01:09:42):

So this subject broadly of just being okay with considering the idea, paying attention to and changing your state in some capacity, is an incredibly powerful topic. And I think you’ve played in this arena a lot because you’re literally working with top performers where their state — the ability to have their state or not — is potentially the difference in their career.

Brian MacKenzie (01:10:09):

Yeah. So it’s like, wait a minute, you’re telling me I need to not be this way? I’ve been running this way for 15 years and I built a billion-dollar company doing this, and now you’re telling me that I need to go home and relax? No, I’m not telling you anything.

Justin McMillen (01:10:28):

Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie (01:10:29):

I got a call that was just like, if you think the road to becoming a billionaire is the way you did it, the only way to do it — you’re not. The best of the best, the most successful people in the world, literally the most successful people in the world, are the ones that are at peace.

(01:10:48):

I don’t care how many world championships you’ve got, I don’t care how many world titles you’ve got. And I’ve worked with those people. It’s quite literally — I told Jon Jones this right before he went out when he fought Ciryl Gane. I was like, look, every day on the Serengeti, the lion and the antelope wake up and they both know where their roles are in the world, but yet it’s not really defined in terms of, “Oh, I understand that’s a lion, he’s going to come and get me.”

(01:11:21):

The antelope just knows that if that lion gets within sight of a certain distance, that’s not a good thing, and I need to run and get away. This is life or death. He intuitively understands that. And there are certain days that lion gets within that hundred yards, which it is actually around a hundred yards, that there’s an opportunity for that lion to eat. Both of their lives are on the line.

(01:11:53):

That’s how life plays out out there. And every time we’ve all seen it, when the lion engages and he’s chasing that antelope, it’s life or death. It is the highest stress levels that could ever be experienced.

I don’t know if you’ve been around lions, but real quick, they’re on a higher food chain than we are. Quite literally. If there were nothing separating us, I’m done. It’s like when I got to go dive with great whites with Andrew. You get out of that cage and you’re with those sharks and you’re like, without a doubt, there’s nothing in me questioning whether I could outswim or get away from this thing. I’m done if this thing decides I’m done.

(01:12:40):

You really start to understand some of those dynamics. But the lion and the antelope engage, right? And for a moment, if you just picture that happening now, just remove the picture. And if we were to look at them physiologically — heart rate, pupil size, respiration rate — you don’t know what animal is what animal in that instance. The difference is that the lion wants to be there and the antelope does not.

(01:13:03):

And that’s when a big wave surfer drops in on a wave. They want to be there. They’re there. As I gave this to Jon before he went out, I’m like, it doesn’t matter the situation you’re in. If you want to be there, even in dire circumstances, guess what? You will be there. But if you don’t want to be there, you’re going to be looking for every fucking out you can find.

Justin McMillen (01:13:25):

That makes complete sense. And I see why that is at the foundation of deciding whether to make a change or not. Because perhaps you like it.

But what I love is that you’re talking about stress as two sides of the same coin.

Brian MacKenzie (01:13:43):

We’re not even talking about two sides. It’s like two of the exact same thing.

Justin McMillen (01:13:50):

Yeah. That was the most incredible way you could put it. We’ve got to close it out, but we need to come back to this for sure, because there’s more here. There’s a ton.

Brian MacKenzie (01:14:06):

The good news about the lion is that in either case, even if he doesn’t get the antelope, he decompresses immediately afterwards.

Justin McMillen (01:14:17):

Yeah. You and I struggle to do that.

Brian MacKenzie (01:14:20):

Yeah. I bet the antelope, if he gets away, decompresses within — oh yeah, he’s probably grazing now. He gets away and he’s literally eating and picking up things pretty quickly. I’ve watched all this stuff. It’s wild what happens, how quickly they can de-stress from high stress. It’s like they’re paying attention to the stress response without knowing what the stress response is.

Justin McMillen (01:14:47):

Right. That’s nuts. Yeah. We can learn. We should all start watching lions and go diving with sharks. Yeah, with you and Andrew.

All right. Hey, thank you.

Brian MacKenzie (01:15:01):

Thank you.

Justin McMillen (01:15:02):

And we’ll come back and do this again.

Brian MacKenzie (01:15:04):

Cool.

Justin McMillen (01:15:05):

All right. Cool. You’ve got to run. Perfect.