Transcript

Intro (00:00):

I am the experiment. You can write your own story. Not stop trying and don't give into the fear.

Justin McMillen (00:09):

I think that's one of the biggest tools I've had, is I find somebody that's doing something I don't know how to do. I mean, there's people come into my mind as I say it and I copy them. I just copy them. Until it's mine. And that's why I think you've built such an extraordinary life and why I'm so happy to be talking to you today.

Justin McMillen (00:40):

Is that — as far as I see it, the best thing a person could do is to leave the earth better than they found it. So what kind of impact can you have? And you have an entire life of incredible effect on the people around you, and I'm fascinated by it because I think your history and all of the different things that you've been through in your life helped build you to who you are.

Justin McMillen (01:14):

Combined with the fact that you're curious and you're smart and like you said, you observe. So here you have this recipe — and now how many years have you been working in mental health or addiction?

Karen Willock (01:26):

Well, I lied to get my first job. You remember that?

Justin McMillen (01:35):

I think so.

Karen Willock (01:35):

I was — I applied, and you're supposed to have a year.

Karen Willock (01:35):

And I had nine months. And I figured because that's closer to a year than six is.

Justin McMillen (02:06):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (02:06):

And so they said do you have a year. And I said pretty much.

Justin McMillen (02:10):

People don't know. You mean a year sober.

Karen Willock (02:12):

Yeah. A year sober.

Karen Willock (02:12):

And so I got my job. I got sober in '83, got clean in '83, and in February of '83 — nine months later — I was working in treatment as a night attendant, keeping everybody from running out, which was easy.

Justin McMillen (02:06):

Yeah. You're sort of like babysitting and herding cattle, right.

Karen Willock (02:09):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (02:09):

So prior to that — so you were 33 when you got sober?

Karen Willock (02:17):

I was 33.

Justin McMillen (02:17):

But you had a run with addiction and a lot of stuff in your life prior to that. What's kind of the 50,000-foot view of that? When did you —

Karen Willock (02:28):

Well, how long were you abusing substances. Right.

Justin McMillen (02:30):

Right.

Karen Willock (02:30):

The first drug I used was heroin. And I was 14. I was working at a dairy in Omaha, where I'm from, and the woman I worked with used it. An older woman — to me she was older, I was 14, she was probably 25. And so that was the first drug and I liked it.

Karen Willock (02:56):

And I didn't use regularly, obviously, because I didn't have the resources or the knowhow, really. But that's how I started. And then once I got into it, it was clear up until I was 33.

Justin McMillen (03:23):

Okay.

Karen Willock (03:24):

And I had gone to nursing school and I did work as a nurse periodically. But I didn't stay employed very long because I was too —

Karen Willock (03:38):

I was using all the time. And so it was difficult to maintain a job.

Karen Willock (03:45):

Plus I didn't see why — I thought it was kind of like okay, you get up, you go to work and you come home. Okay. I can just skip the middle part. Get up and go to bed.

Justin McMillen (03:55):

Yeah. There you go.

Karen Willock (03:56):

And so that's for me — that's how that went. So when you look at my Social Security — you know how they give you that readout — I show it to people when I talk sometimes because it looks like I came out of a coma in 1984 and I've been working ever since. Before 1984 it's like I'd make $200 here or $1,000 here, and I never — I don't think I ever worked a whole year, ever, until I got clean.

Justin McMillen (04:16):

It's interesting because I've heard similar ones — that if you just think about where you stop the tape, that kind of tells the story. Or you can stop in a moment and talk about the past. If you stop the tape when you were 22, then your life was — you're a drug addict.

Justin McMillen (04:35):

If you take right now — pause and take a look back — you're a healer who was a drug addict, among a million other things. And so really that period of time now, in the context of your life, is like your own pain and hell. But it was certainly an opportunity to learn about what drives people.

Justin McMillen (04:59):

What causes the pain that makes us do what we do. And now you get to apply that to your understanding of other people going through it, which is, I think in part what makes you so incredibly good at what you do. So you got sober and you began to work in treatment —

Karen Willock (05:22):

And I loved it.

Justin McMillen (05:22):

What about it did you love?

Karen Willock (05:23):

Well, I worked the midnight shift. Because that's — I needed somebody to keep the men at night, not let them escape. And I kept all the patients up with me. We called them patients back then, and we'd play cards. We'd make food. I didn't know I was supposed to be answering the phones, too.

Karen Willock (05:46):

I mean, there was so much I didn't know. Just so much. It's kind of stunning how much I didn't know. So we'd all go downstairs and we'd talk about recovery and —

Karen Willock (06:02):

We would play games and it was fun. We just had fun.

Justin McMillen (06:08):

Right.

Karen Willock (06:09):

And I like talking to people.

Justin McMillen (06:13):

Did you — so I think people experience this, definitely who are new in recovery. But did you feel like having a history of addiction was a good thing at that point? Like, you knew right out of the gate that you understood this in a way other people couldn't, right?

Karen Willock (06:37):

See, that's really it. I mean, think about this. I have a dear friend who is a physician, and she just went through and battled cancer and came out of it. She's not an oncologist, but she's a physician. She came out of it, she's fully better. And she's just an incredible person because she has medical knowledge.

Karen Willock (07:01):

But she also has the actual experience. And so it gives her a unique ability. I mean, if you have to choose a doctor, it's like — which one would you choose? The one who has been through what it is that they're trying to help you with, or not.

Justin McMillen (07:18):

Right.

Justin McMillen (07:19):

And I think — yeah, I wonder about that. I'm certain at this point, with how much history you have, that — early on, you never worried if people would judge you because of your past?

Karen Willock (07:26):

I never really cared.

Justin McMillen (07:29):

Got it.

Karen Willock (07:30):

If they did. You know, I'm still kind of that variety, at least. And I laugh about it because the bar at my house was so low that there was no concern with image. There was no people-pleasing the world or the neighbors kind of thing, because everything that happened in our home was in the front yard.

Karen Willock (07:47):

So there was no hiding it. And I think as a survival mechanism — when I look back now — for the shame. Because as a child, of course I'm going to feel something different than I will looking back at it. But as a child, if you think about a little child looking at this chaos and violence and unpredictability and confusion and drinking — they don't have the bandwidth, the prefrontal lobe, to think about what's going on. You know, "mommy and daddy are really messed up."

Karen Willock (08:27):

Yeah. You know, this is just like chaos. And so I don't think I had the ability to worry about what other people thought because it was just so intense there.

Justin McMillen (08:35):

And you're bringing up an interesting point. I don't want to cut you off.

Karen Willock (08:42):

No, you're fine.

Justin McMillen (08:42):

You're bringing up an interesting point because I'm starting with — you know, you have lived experience going through addiction and that gives you insight that others don't have.

Justin McMillen (08:56):

But then going back even further, you have front-row experience to being the child of pretty dysfunctional people — two alcoholics, late-stage chronic alcoholics, by the day you were born.

Karen Willock (09:25):

So I've been training my whole life.

Karen Willock (09:27):

I'm going to come back as a frog. I'm not doing this again, man.

Karen Willock (09:28):

So my whole life has either been someone else's active addiction, my active addiction, my recovery, and now everybody else's. There's no gap where I interacted with normal people. I've always worked in treatment programs where I'm dealing with active addiction. Every day when you walk into a residential program, you're walking knee-deep into the disease of addiction. Active — they're not using, but they're minutes away from it.

Karen Willock (09:52):

You know, they're brand new.

Justin McMillen (09:55):

So you've been — can I ask how old you are?

Karen Willock (10:01):

I'm 74.

Justin McMillen (10:01):

So you've had 74 years of conditioning and training to get you to where you are now. Right. I mean, we all have, but yours is uniquely put into one place — and you found yourself in a career that's almost related to your entire life.

Karen Willock (10:16):

It is my life. It's in my life. You know, some people keep asking me, when are you going to retire? And I said, because I'm not done doing what I'm here to do.

Justin McMillen (10:27):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (10:27):

It's not rocket science. I'm really happy doing what I'm doing.

Karen Willock (10:37):

And I'll probably physically and mentally wear out sooner than I'm wanting to be done. But until then, I've made agreements with my staff. You know, please don't let me be that old staff member where you think, oh God, is she ever going to retire? I said, just put a note on my desk or something. I said, let's have direct communication, please.

Justin McMillen (11:03):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (11:03):

So yeah, it's been — but you know, I don't — I do not any longer live in the active illness of addiction. And that's what people don't have to do. They don't have to live in the active illness of addiction, no matter where they've come from. And you know, I heard this from someone the other day.

Karen Willock (11:31):

They said this is the only disease where you become better after it than you were before it.

Justin McMillen (11:40):

That's true.

Karen Willock (11:41):

And I thought that was — that was part of that thinking last Saturday when I was talking to Lisa. If you looked on paper at my history, you would be curious why I wasn't incarcerated, why I hadn't harmed someone, why I'm a productive member of society, why I care about anybody else, why I'm not so narcissistic or —

Karen Willock (12:10):

And I probably am, but not so self-centered that I'm useless. That I can't see how someone else feels or what could be going on with them. If you looked at my clinical history — and when I was doing this writing that I was doing at Holy Smoke — if I looked at that history, which we get some of those guys, you know, and I look at their history, I can tell them, yeah, it's not an overnight thing.

Karen Willock (12:42):

If you're willing to spend the time and make the commitment, you too can change. If you're not, you won't. It's not rocket science. It's either one of two doors here.

Justin McMillen (12:52):

You're like a living example of hope.

Karen Willock (12:53):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (12:53):

But it's not easy.

Karen Willock (12:55):

No, of course not.

Karen Willock (12:55):

And I used to feel branded. You know, like I could never quite —

Karen Willock (13:06):

You don't know what the word is. It's like some of this stuff is so deep.

Karen Willock (13:10):

Like, still to this day. I was talking to Lisa about walking here because I'm only a mile away. And she said, well, be safe, I don't want somebody hurting you. And I thought even if somebody tried to hurt me, as old as I am, I'd go down fighting.

Karen Willock (13:24):

You know, if you back me into a corner, that animal is still there. I got home and there was homeless people sitting by my door and they said, oh we're sorry. And I said, well guys, if you're not going to rob me, hurt me, or do anything wrong, I'm fine. If you're going to —

Karen Willock (13:38):

You better go.

Justin McMillen (13:40):

I think anyone who knows you knows that's true. Yeah. You just — you have that way, for sure.

Karen Willock (13:47):

Yeah. It's like — that's in me. See, that — that branding. But I used to see that as such a curse. You know, all of this stuff. Like, am I not capable of — I've always felt years behind the rest of the world, you know, trying to catch up. And I don't know if I've caught up, because some people that I thought were caught up — I wouldn't give you a couple of nickels for what they've got.

Karen Willock (14:06):

So I think I stopped looking out and started looking in, and just finding the next one thing that you wanted to shift. Not all of it. Just the next one. What's needed? Richard Rohr was the one that turned me on to those three questions. What is it I need to know? How is it going to transform me? And then what is that transformation going to do for my interactions with the world at large?

Karen Willock (14:36):

What is it I need to know. How is it going to transform me. And how is that transformation going to impact my meeting the world. So I — even with the families — I work with everybody. It's always about: I want to be my best self.

Karen Willock (15:19):

Who I am has nothing to do with who you are. I learned that from Rosenberg. You know, what they're doing is not mine. And it's not my job to punish, persecute, or anything else. This is mine to do, not theirs.

Justin McMillen (15:37):

I want to get into that, actually. One of the questions I wanted to ask you today — kind of a bit of a mantra.

Justin McMillen (15:44):

I want to ask you about that yet, but just something for people to keep in their heads or even to write down and put up on the refrigerator. But just closing out this whole thing — because some people won't know you. I mean, you're pretty well known. There's a lot of videos of you and things on the internet. But you know — raised in a pretty difficult household with two alcoholic parents, became an addict at a young age in a really terrible way.

Justin McMillen (16:12):

I mean, that's just terrible to say of a person. Yeah.

Karen Willock (16:17):

Yeah. I suppose at some point, if you're born this way, you know, it's going to happen one way or another. It's just — what a terrible way for that to go down.

Karen Willock (16:38):

I would have found it.

Justin McMillen (16:39):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (16:39):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (16:40):

I'm sure.

Justin McMillen (16:41):

And then going through all sorts of different life experiences, including losing a child to murder —

Karen Willock (16:55):

A stepdaughter. Stepdaughter. Excuse me.

Justin McMillen (16:57):

And a husband to suicide.

Karen Willock (17:10):

Suicide.

Justin McMillen (17:10):

So you're — you're pushing yourself out on purpose into all of these incredibly challenging dimensions of the human experience. It's super, super heavy.

Justin McMillen (17:20):

And then you get sober and it's almost like — if you look at it in hindsight, the way I'm seeing it as you're talking — it's like you have this bag on your back and you're just throwing experiences in it. And at some point this is all going to get organized in a way that allows you to be the most helpful possible to others.

Justin McMillen (17:48):

So — you said working overnight — what's the laundry list of jobs that you've done in this field?

Karen Willock (17:52):

Yeah. So I started as a night attendant. And I noticed, because of being a nurse, that their charts were not in order. And so I left a note for the director and said, bring me on days and I'll help set up a charting system so when the Joint Commission comes in or the state comes to audit us, we can pass.

Karen Willock (18:11):

And so I came on days and some counselor didn't show up.

Justin McMillen (18:15):

Sure.

Karen Willock (18:15):

And again, I was nine, ten months clean and sober. I mean, I was like, oh my God. And so my counselor didn't show up, which wasn't unusual back then. You know, just some — one day they quit showing up. And we would detox people on couches. I mean, it was really the wild, wild West of addiction, this '80s.

Justin McMillen (18:36):

Yeah, this was '84.

Karen Willock (18:37):

Okay.

Karen Willock (18:38):

And so she said — can anybody do a group? I said, I can. I was nine feet tall and bulletproof. I could do anything. Just tell me where to go, what to do. So I went in and it was a group of all alcoholics and addicts, and I loved it. And I came out and I said, what do I have to do to be that?

Karen Willock (18:52):

And she said, well, you have to start taking some classes — and you're hired. I mean, it was that fast. So I started doing groups, carrying a caseload, and I loved it. Oh my God, I loved it. And I read — I started reading. The very first book I read was Hope and Health for the Alcoholic Family by Virginia Satir and Sharon Wegscheider-Cruse.

Karen Willock (19:17):

And I just found a copy at our office up in Portland and I put it on my desk, because — that was the first book I read about that. I read about my family, about living with alcoholics, being one. You know, it was like I couldn't get enough of it. So I did that, and I stayed there.

Karen Willock (19:46):

You know, a lot of it. There's a lot of politics, and I've never really been very good at those. It's kind of like — I still had that pretty rebellious side, you know. I don't need you. I was looking for a job and I found this job. Matter of fact, I didn't even want a job.

Karen Willock (20:03):

And so I worked there for — I want to say — it was the first time I'd ever had a paid vacation. Never had seen that in 34 years on a paycheck. Ever. Where I stayed long enough to have vacation time. Sick time was pretty astounding to me. I didn't use it, but I liked knowing I had it.

Karen Willock (20:25):

And then I was vested. I didn't even know what that word meant. I said, what am I vested in? What kind of investment do I get? And then they told me you're vested in this retirement. I thought, what the heck. And so that started there. And then I went from there to Springbrook Northwest, which at that time treated physicians.

Karen Willock (20:58):

Now, remember I had been in the medical field. And part of my recovery has been restoring things to the places that I took them from, so to speak, and trying to restore what I took. Like if I took money from you, that was easy — I'd get your money, you know, start making payments or whatever. But if I took your sense of safety or well-being or your respect, then I would —

Karen Willock (21:25):

I would do that. I would start restoring that. Like my dad's second wife — I said, I will never contact you again, because I had threatened her frightfully many times and felt so proud of myself because I never hurt her. Actually, it was like — I had this really warped sense of values. Very warped. It's kind of embarrassing when I think about it now.

Karen Willock (21:48):

That's what I say — if I heard me back then, I would — whoa, whoa. But so I said, I'll never contact you again. If you ever need to contact me, you can do that through my brother. She never contacted me. Ever. She had my mom's stuff. Never got it. It was just like — I just let it go.

Karen Willock (22:10):

So I went to work at Springbrook, which treated physicians and nurses. And it was a way for me to give back to the community that I really had abused so frightfully by using. I was under the influence taking care of patients, you know. And I did a lot of end-of-life care. And I loved that because people get real when they're dying — kind of all the B.S. drops away and they really start being real.

Karen Willock (22:38):

And even back then, in my 20s, I would talk to one guy — you know, he had had affairs. Should I tell my wife? I said, why would you tell your wife when you're almost dead? I'm going to drop that on her now? That doesn't even make sense.

Justin McMillen (22:58):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (22:58):

And then there was somebody who was embezzling from his company. I said, get an attorney — or get a hitman — do something. That's your money and they're going to need it. But I was already — there's always a solution to something. Just kind of start looking for it.

Karen Willock (23:23):

So I worked there, and then for 25 years I did a physicians group for the Washington Physicians Health Program once a week. I drove to Vancouver and did a group for physicians that were being monitored. And so I worked at Springbrook, did that group, did one-on-ones too during that time. But the Washington Physicians Health Program was all groups only — they were monitored for five years and so they had to attend.

Karen Willock (23:48):

They hated it and that was okay. I didn't care if they liked me or not. But I still talk to some of those docs — some of them, you know, we've stayed friends long past. Now they're 20 and 30 years clean and sober.

Karen Willock (24:09):

So then I stayed there, and when I was working at Providence, I had my first son sober.

Karen Willock (24:15):

So I had David when I was using. He was 12 when I got clean. And then he started using when he was 16 and he was out. And I really only intended to stay clean until he was out of the house. I didn't intend to stay forever. I didn't hate being high. It wasn't very productive for sure.

Karen Willock (24:32):

And I got into a lot of trouble and situations that were dangerous. But it was kind of familiar to me — the danger and the anxiety that goes with it, and all the feelings that were normal growing up. I now replicated in a lifestyle that produced those same feelings under different circumstances. So when I was at Providence, I had Joe, and I was 38 — so I was just five years clean and sober then.

Karen Willock (25:11):

At that point, that's when I decided I needed to make a change and went to Springbrook. And then I worked there for probably — I'm never good at years — 7 or 8 years, maybe nine years. And then by then I'd had another son and he had some mental health issues, and I needed to be closer to home. And it was during that time that their dad died — he committed suicide.

Karen Willock (25:36):

We moved to a smaller town. I also have always done side gigs. You know, I worked at a ranch that was for throwaways, misfits, people who've been through treatment a million times. I still know some of those guys. And I liked working with the people that nobody else wanted to work with because they were just such jerks.

Karen Willock (25:56):

You know, I like jerks. And so I worked there too. And then I moved to Silverton, Oregon. We got out of Saint Johns, where we were living when Pete died, and I needed to get closer to where my kids were because I was a single mom. And Pete, my youngest, was having issues, and so I needed to be closer.

Karen Willock (26:22):

And so I switched from there and went to work for Serenity Lane in Salem. And I started there as a line counselor. Matter of fact, that woman I talked to you about today — I started working with her and that was in '98.

Justin McMillen (26:41):

Oh, wow.

Karen Willock (26:42):

And so we started working together.

Justin McMillen (26:43):

Oh, so you've known her 25, 27 years?

Karen Willock (26:44):

Yeah. It's hard to believe because I think of her as very young, and I was probably her age now then. It's very weird, you know. It's kind of because you don't age in your own head — everything else does. But the brain is like, wait a minute, what happened? You're how old?

Karen Willock (27:07):

And then mixed through all of this, because when you grow up like that — what do you have problems with?

Karen Willock (27:17):

Having a relationship with another human being. That's where you have your problems. So I was a great worker. I just couldn't have an intimate relationship with another human being.

Justin McMillen (27:30):

Is that why attachment is such a huge issue at its core?

Karen Willock (27:32):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (27:32):

Yes.

Karen Willock (27:33):

It's that way.

Justin McMillen (27:34):

Do you think that people that can't bond with other humans — when they find drugs, it's just a bond with chemicals that's doing this?

Karen Willock (27:51):

I bonded with inanimate objects much easier than human beings. Yeah. Absolutely. Cars. Anything but a human. Because what gets held in our memory is that getting close is going to hurt.

Justin McMillen (28:10):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (28:10):

And this is unconscious. It's not in our conscious memory. And just because I was not the dependent person — you know, that feels like I'm going to die if you leave — I hope you leave. And I was more the avoidant and the ambivalent. Come close. Get away. You know, I'm better off without you. You don't like it?

Karen Willock (28:26):

Leave.

Karen Willock (28:26):

I mean, I just — I had to learn how to stay. I didn't have to learn how to leave. Some people have to learn how to leave. Some people need to learn how to stay. I had to learn how to stay. So I was very defended.

Karen Willock (28:38):

So when I went to Serenity Lane, I worked there until 2016. So '98 to '16. And I was a line counselor, I was a manager, I was a director, and I ended there as a VP.

Justin McMillen (28:56):

Okay.

Karen Willock (28:57):

And then at that point — so I've only worked for three facilities besides Treehouse. At that point, I didn't know what I was going to do exactly. I had some offers, but I didn't want to get into a big organization again. You know, there's too much politics and I just don't like it. Nobody really knows anybody. Nobody ever has a cup of coffee with anybody.

Justin McMillen (29:22):

So I think the opposite. Yes. Exactly.

Karen Willock (29:23):

And so I went to work — so kind of these overlap. Back in time, what happened is I met Lisa. So I'd been married to men, and I love men. I just don't like sleeping with them, if I can be frank. And so that usually creates issues. But I wasn't falling in love with anybody. So again here was this attachment issue — unbeknownst to me, I didn't know what that word meant — that I would never really fall in love where I could get hurt again.

Karen Willock (29:56):

I mean, I loved them. But I guess not that much. If that sounds right. I wasn't in love with them. So I came out to myself, and I was afraid I would lose my connection with my own higher power. And then you know — I'm going to shoot heroin again? What's going to happen.

Karen Willock (30:17):

You know, am I going to go to hell. What is hell. I mean it was like, oh my God, all this just to be with somebody? It seems a little huge to me.

Justin McMillen (30:38):

How old were you?

Karen Willock (30:38):

I was in my 50s.

Justin McMillen (30:39):

Wow.

Karen Willock (30:39):

Yeah. I was after my last marriage. He said I can't be your girlfriend. And I said, why not? And we were only married a year. You know, it was — and he was a nice guy who wanted to be married, but he didn't really want kids. And I had kids. I've been married to a lot of nice guys. I've been married to a few jerks and a lot of nice guys.

Karen Willock (30:58):

I just didn't — it was like having guys in the house. How was your day? Good. Mine was good. And first time Lisa said, when we got in bed, do you want to talk? I said no.

Justin McMillen (31:13):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (31:14):

I said, there's two things for the bed. Talk is not one of them.

Justin McMillen (31:18):

I think I knew you were going to say that.

Karen Willock (31:19):

And so I'm very wired in a very male kind of way. And so I could tell you some really funny stories because Lisa of course was not. So I came out, and I did morning pages with this program called — what was that called. It'll come to me. But you did this morning writing, just right on those big papers.

Karen Willock (31:47):

No commas, no periods, no filter. And I came out to myself right on that paper. Wow. I had never been with a woman. And I could feel this — this is something I've come to trust in myself so much. I felt this —

Karen Willock (32:08):

Coming together, and I was in alignment with myself. I felt at lock. So I was working at Serenity Lane then. And first I went to gay AA — sacred crap — and holy smoke, everybody slept with everybody, and I've got way too much autonomy for this. And then I went to a couple of bars and I thought, I have to put them in treatment.

Karen Willock (32:37):

And so I'd never been online, and I went online and I saw Lisa. She had written this long thing about — I don't even know what most of it. I had to look the words up. And I sent her a "you caught my eye" — had to join. Best money I've ever spent. And come to find out, we'd known each other 20 years before, when my boys were little.

Karen Willock (33:01):

She knew my Pete — their dad. I mean, we knew each other way back.

Justin McMillen (33:15):

You guys were doing this? Yeah, exactly.

Karen Willock (33:17):

Until we finally — we laughed about hitting on each other. And so —

Karen Willock (33:19):

Yeah, that was pretty amazing. Because I remember when I first saw her — we finally met because I had a big job. I was the director in Portland at Serenity Lane. This was before I was the VP. So it was a big job and I was busy, and she had a big job, and we weren't quite connecting. And once again, that feeling — I get what I'm going to say — because I usually call it: if it's not happening, forget it, move on.

Karen Willock (33:43):

And I didn't. I left a message saying, you know, we tried to connect, it's not working out, I wish you well. I'm kind of a direct communicator. And then I hung up and I thought something didn't feel right about that. And I thought, you need to not do that. And so I called back and I said, hey, scratch that first voicemail.

Karen Willock (34:10):

I said I do want to meet you.

Justin McMillen (34:15):

It was immediate.

Karen Willock (34:15):

Yeah. Did you hang up? I wasn't even home yet. I was driving, wasn't even home yet. I knew — I trust that so much in myself that once I have that, it's like, okay, I'm in. And so we met not too long after that. And I remember at the Starbucks — I just had coffee with a friend there the other day in Portland — and I remember sitting in the same place, and I look there and I remember, that's going to be one of my deathbed memories.

Karen Willock (34:38):

Sitting there looking at Lisa walk up, and I thought, oh yeah, she's the one. Oh man.

Justin McMillen (35:00):

I know, it gives me chills to this day. That's beautiful.

Karen Willock (35:01):

She didn't fall in love with me quite as fast, so I had to — she just didn't know she was. She didn't know. And then a year, a year and a half later, we got married, and we've been together almost 18 years now.

Justin McMillen (35:00):

Yeah. So you were — how many times were you married before that?

Karen Willock (35:05):

Five.

Justin McMillen (35:06):

Oh my gosh, I know. So you see — I was Catholic. I was raised Catholic. I know a little bit about divorce. Oh yeah. A little bit about falling in love and making quick decisions. Oh yeah. It's incredible. Because somewhere in my growing up years, I got the idea that if you sleep with them, you got to marry them.

Karen Willock (35:22):

Sure. So I just did. You know, I'm kind of obedient that way. Give me the rule, I'll follow it.

Justin McMillen (35:35):

Yeah. Well, maybe you're a hopeless romantic too.

Karen Willock (35:37):

Yeah. No, I don't think so. But — so that's interesting.

Justin McMillen (35:41):

Because in here along this pathway of you gathering information — I don't know a better way to say it.

Karen Willock (35:47):

Life experience. Married, divorced, married, divorced. And actually I couldn't — and hurting people. Yeah, I was hurting these guys because they did fall in love with me. And I remember after he left I thought, I can't keep doing this. I'm hurting people. And that was not okay with me — to hurt people. And that's when I realized something.

Karen Willock (36:11):

Something's not working right here. And when I told my boys — because I have three sons — none of them were shocked. I remember chasing Joe up the stairs when he smarted off to me once, and I got the nape of his neck and pinched him till he stopped dead. Because when you're a girl, you have to know certain things.

Karen Willock (36:37):

And I said, I may look like the chicken in this house, but I am the rooster. You know, that male part of me was very strong. Yeah. Well, what Lisa has introduced me to is that tender part. She wanted somebody with a heart cracked open. You know, my heart was crushed as a child.

Karen Willock (37:03):

Crushed. And then I crushed it with all the many things that I've done that don't belong on a podcast. And then I crushed other people's hearts. And to think about cracking my heart wide open — it's beyond me. But I remember thinking not too very long ago — I am tenderhearted now. I wasn't tenderhearted when this started.

Karen Willock (37:34):

I was hard hearted. Now I am tenderhearted. And that's what — that's what loving somebody does for you. It reaches parts of you that nothing else can reach. And it can't be your kids, because you love them, but they're not that person. It's that person. And I realized, you know, with this stuff going on with my heart — I never wanted to love anybody enough that I would miss them if they were gone.

Karen Willock (38:13):

And that's not a bad thing. There's something bittersweet about loving somebody enough to miss them. But I always protected myself from that. And a lot of my community — my spiritual community, especially this last year — has helped me. I'm just a loving person, which was always the end goal, but I didn't think I'd ever reach it because I just didn't think I could get past some of this stuff.

Karen Willock (38:48):

So then in that — that's where my — I've always had horrible issues with rage. I'm not talking anger. Rage is the avoidance of true anger. I had things to be angry about, no doubt. But my rage helped me avoid really dealing with it, really owning what I had thoughts and feelings intensely about. And it had gotten better over the years.

Karen Willock (39:20):

And I've had different therapists that have come into my life. Some of them were worthless, some of them were wonderful, some of them were just at the right time. And some of them actually helped me before I ever got clean. And people say you can't get help before your time. That wasn't my experience. You know, they taught me things.

Karen Willock (39:40):

Just the fact that they even talked to me was impressive, knowing what a mess I was. Because I was rough around the edges for sure. But I raged. And Lisa — I'll never forget this. This had never happened in my home. Ever. In most of my adult life. And I went in — she was sitting on the bed and I sat down and she said, Karen, I am not here to tell you what you can or can't do, but I can't live with that.

Karen Willock (40:17):

And I remember so clearly leaning forward — I put my elbows on my knees — and I said, Lisa, I don't know if I can change this. It's better, but I have done everything I know to change this, and it's still such that one thing will happen and I snap, and I felt helpless about it.

Karen Willock (40:48):

And there had been a woman — I always vetted the people we referred to because there's too many not-so-greats out there. You don't want to just refer to anybody just because they say they're good.

Justin McMillen (41:07):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (41:07):

And so I had had this one woman and she had talked to my staff. And I remember when I was sitting there listening to her, I thought, boy, if I ever need to do that kind of work — and it was all about attachment. It was all about brain rewiring. It was all about neuroscience. It was all about learning about brain and body and the connections, and why we do some of the things we do. What a trigger was. All of it. And I thought, boy — if I ever need that, you know.

Karen Willock (41:30):

Yeah, that would be good, Karen. I'll go see her. So I did. And that was 18 years ago. And everything she taught me, I thought was such B.S., you know. Breathe. Oh for God's sake, I can't find my back with both hands and you're telling me to breathe. You know, it doesn't make sense to me.

Karen Willock (41:52):

So anyway, I learned, I learned, I learned. So in 2016 I went to work for her for a while. And because whatever I learn I teach — that's the final phase of learning something. If you learn it and keep it — oh good, you got nothing.

Justin McMillen (42:18):

That's true.

Karen Willock (42:19):

Now you've learned it — oh good. But if you learn it and then you teach it, then it's yours.

Karen Willock (42:21):

And the more you teach it, the more it's yours. I have no doubt that the universe knew that I needed to be knee-deep in learning and recovery. And I am a searcher. I'm a seeker. I'm a learner. I have read thousands of books, listened to things, gone to classes. None of it has ended up in a degree.

Karen Willock (42:48):

I know that. I mean, I have my nursing, but I suppose if I gathered it all I could be something. I went to communication — learn how to talk — I still have trouble with conflict and I'm working on that, getting slightly better.

Justin McMillen (43:12):

Yeah. Me too.

Karen Willock (43:13):

But I still — you know, that's hanging on.

Karen Willock (43:13):

So then I worked for her. And then that's when I met you. It was about five years into that. And it was because of the neuroscience. When I heard what we do here — because she taught me — I remember this one class I was in. I was in a class, there were 10 or 12 other people, and they were all talking about how they felt things in their body, and I felt nothing below my neck. Nothing.

Karen Willock (43:39):

And I mean nothing. And I remembered where I was standing in her office, and I thought, I am not going to my deathbed only alive from the neck up. I'm not. And that's when I started learning. I didn't even know what a feeling was. Or how to know when you were triggered.

Karen Willock (44:02):

And I never raged again after that first appointment. I had to maybe go to the bathroom and sit in there and breathe, which I thought was stupid. I told her that too. I said, I can't believe I come in here with my life falling apart and you're telling me to breathe. And she said, I didn't come to see you.

Karen Willock (44:21):

Good point.

Karen Willock (44:22):

I don't know if I'd want to work with me. So then that's when I came here to Treehouse. That's it. And I got to tell you, Justin — I was sharing this with Lisa and some of my friends — because not everybody in my field that's my age is cherished. Like I feel with this company. No matter which unit I go to or who I see.

Karen Willock (44:50):

It's like they — it's like I don't know how to explain it. It's like they are interested in what I think and how I look at things. And you know —

Justin McMillen (45:18):

It's just crazy that that surprises you. Yeah. I think maybe that's just — you don't realize who you are.

Karen Willock (45:19):

I — matter of fact, Dylan over there said to me, he says, you're the GOAT. I said, what do you mean I'm a goat? And he said, GOAT. You don't know what that is? No. She told me, and I thought, oh my God. I told Lisa, I said, do you know what a GOAT is? And she said yes. And I said, not to me. And she said no. And I said, well, yeah, there you go.

Justin McMillen (45:36):

I tell people all the time that I'm quite certain there's nobody in the United States that has — I just think it would be impossible to find, even close to anybody in the United States, that has the same history and experience and then has made all that useful in such a way to where you're helping so many people.

Justin McMillen (45:58):

You're about as rare as they come. So of course — yeah, I don't know if we all want you to suddenly realize that because your head might go — oh, I don't think so. But it's just stunning. When I talk to you, I always think — anything you say — because your database of human experience is so big —

Justin McMillen (46:23):

I mean, you want to talk about divorce, we can talk about that. You want to talk about sexuality, we can talk about that. You want to talk about how to feel, how to fail and not get high — yeah. I mean, on and on and on. And what I think is interesting — and what I'd like to get into today, and I think there'll be other podcasts as well —

Justin McMillen (46:43):

When we talked, you said — I'll never forget — you said, I'm looking for a place to download my brain before I quit working. And that was — I'll never forget that. As far as people coming on board here, that was probably the most key, powerful — like kind of holy — holy shit, this is extremely important.

Justin McMillen (47:13):

It was a big moment. And I'll never forget it. And then I asked you how you wanted to do that, and you said basically everything. And then you said — but I think where I can be most effective is on the family side of things at this point. And at first I was like, you should be a counselor.

Justin McMillen (47:31):

You could do anything. But can you tell us why — why, in this season of your life — why families? Why this subject?

Karen Willock (48:05):

I think families — I mean, families are the pivotal beginnings of every human being.

Karen Willock (48:10):

You have a mother and a father, whether they're together, whether they're healthy, it doesn't matter. Everybody starts with a family. And that wiring and that attachment is so important. And the agony in families is so huge and so isolating. Nobody talks about — there's a lot of things we don't talk about in this world of ours. You know, we talk about a lot of nonsense, but people don't really talk about what's happening for them, what it's like, what their day is, how their interactions are, their fears, their insecurities, their triumphs.

Karen Willock (48:47):

You know, we're either way too big or we're nothing and we're way too little. We just don't quite get right-sized. But families are the pivotal point. They're the beginning. My personal desire with families — I remember a few things. My dad went into treatment once. I was probably in my early 20s. I hadn't left Nebraska yet because I moved out to Oregon.

Karen Willock (49:18):

When I was 26 — which was a whole other funny story. But yeah, we don't need to go into that. But there are some funny stories that happened in my life, I gotta tell you. But he was in a treatment care center back in the day, and they had — they wanted one of us to come in.

Karen Willock (49:42):

And what's so interesting is my brother's experience — he would say very little, if any, of this, although he was treated frightfully by my dad. And there's so much estrangement in my family. There's not a lot of roots and connection. Connection was very fractured in my home. Maybe that's one of the things I enjoy so much —

Karen Willock (50:15):

Like I saw one of the guys that now has three years sober, when I was over there yesterday, and he says, you don't know who I am yet, do you? And I said no. And he took his sunglasses off. I still didn't, and he told me his name. And I said, oh my God — dead man walking. Because he was a dead man walking.

Karen Willock (50:38):

And I remember talking with his parents — different times we'd be out camping or something, and there'd be some big stink and crisis with him being a jerk, and they'd call and I'd talk mom off the ledge. Let him dangle, let him suffer, you know, let him feel the natural consequences. Two doors — accept help or continue as you are.

Karen Willock (51:01):

And so there was something about the agony that goes on in families that nobody talks about. And so I went in and I told the truth to my dad — what it was like living with him. And he disowned me. And just like as a child, I ran out of there — and unbeknownst to me, the door I took was a closet, where I'd spent a lot of time in a closet growing up, just hiding. And there he was, disowning me, because he said what I said wasn't true. And I knew it was true.

Karen Willock (51:43):

And that was that. You know, there are defining moments in your life, and there are things you realize when they happen. And that's where now, when I sit with families, I will help you talk about what you don't want to talk about — because it's what you don't want to talk about that's going to kill you. It's not what you're willing —

Karen Willock (52:05):

I used to call them pocket secrets. What you're willing to throw out on the table. I mean, I don't even expect anybody to be honest when I first talk to them. Honesty is kind of progressive. And I tell them, you know — I know you're lying. It's all right. We're all liars, you know — either lie by omission or outright lie. But it's okay.

Karen Willock (52:29):

And every now and then they'll squeak something out that's true. And I can tell when that's true. And I like that. There's this — I don't know what this is in my brain — but it's like all this stuff comes in, and it's the one thing that gets my attention. That's the thing. And so that happened with that thing with my dad when he disowned me.

Karen Willock (52:54):

And when I went into that closet and I was standing in there — and I say standing, like, how ironic. I didn't come out of the closet for years, but I wasn't going to stand in the closet anymore. I walked out. And him and I never really reconciled. I was there when they unplugged him and stuff years later, but we never had a relationship.

Karen Willock (53:19):

He was incapable. He was a Korean War vet. And I'm sure — he had shrapnel scars down half of his body. Now, after working with veterans and hearing all these things and getting to know people, I think, oh my God, my dad didn't have a stinking chance. And I think he was probably taken prisoner just by the hatred he had in him about Koreans.

Karen Willock (53:48):

I mean, he would do what he called citizen's arrests — drunk. He'd stop cars and arrest people. He had a badge. I don't know where he got that. He sure wasn't a cop. Oh my gosh. And so he was a very volatile man. And I'd see him grinding his teeth — you know, how he'd grind his teeth — and I'd see his jaw going like that.

Karen Willock (54:11):

And he was just a very tortured man. And he just never did get well. He died in his 40s. I don't know exactly how old he was, because nobody ever told the truth about how old anybody was. But he was in his 40s. He was a young man. He didn't belong dead, that's for sure.

Karen Willock (54:37):

And so there's something about — I want to talk about this stuff nobody else wants to talk about. You know, you're not going to shock me, that's for sure. Even when I go over and hang out with all the guys — we were laughing because I said, what were you talking about? And they told me, and they said, we wouldn't say that to too many people.

Karen Willock (55:00):

I said, I know. And it doesn't — like I've never heard that before. But it's secrets, and it's usually shame. Horrible fear, horrible fear. I remember one vet I worked with — when he finally said it — I was afraid — you could tell it almost killed him to squeak that word out. That he was afraid.

Karen Willock (55:29):

See, if he didn't get anything out of his whole time with us — and he still texts me every now and then — I'm telling you, he was able to hear that one other person knew that he was afraid. And of course he was. And that's what I said. Of course you are. Of course. That doesn't make you less. It makes you more.

Karen Willock (55:58):

So families — and then being the mother of three boys who have addiction and mental health issues. That was more agony for me than anything. My growing up, my own addiction, my recovery, my anger, my hate — that agony was — I mean, it just about crushed me.

Justin McMillen (56:44):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (56:45):

You know, and that's why when we got together and we have a very comprehensive program — you know, I've been around a lot of years and people have little family groups. And we talk about a little this and a little that. But we talk about boundaries and brain and how to not enable — and how do you take care of yourself? The how-to's. How do you really do this when you're so scared your kid's going to end up in a coffin?

Karen Willock (57:04):

And do people — do they die? Yeah. I've talked to a lot of moms and dads whose kids are dead. You know, I'm not afraid of people's pain. I don't — and I don't say that like it's easy to listen to — but I'm not afraid of their pain. I've had huge pain. Suffering is a part of being human.

Karen Willock (57:35):

There's no escaping it. How are you going to be with it? Resisting it'll kill you. You know, I think about this — I was telling Lisa this — a heart blockage thing. In a metaphysical sense — which I didn't even know what that word meant till I met her.

Justin McMillen (57:57):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (57:58):

No, she doesn't have crystals. But yeah, she probably could.

Justin McMillen (58:05):

Yeah, she had some crystals for sure. I should buy her some crystals. That would —

Karen Willock (58:12):

It would be like, you're being so thoughtful.

Justin McMillen (58:13):

She's into that stuff. You gotta go to the crystal shop. But if you think about it — here's my heart and it's blocked. It has been blocked for years. It got blocked with so much emotion — because I'm a firm believer the body will keep score.

Karen Willock (58:25):

You know, I watch people get arthritis. And if you listen to them long enough, you hear the rage — rage at the bones. I remember having a client, his wife walked in and said, I've taken all the money, I've moved out of the house, I've emptied it, and the kids are with me. Then walked out the door.

Karen Willock (58:47):

I thought, well, that was not well planned. And he slumped to the floor because he had a vagal response, and I thought, holy deal, he's dying. And he was just having a vagal response and he was okay. But I saw him in front of Saint Vincent's Hospital 5 or 6 times over the years because he had severe heart issues.

Karen Willock (59:16):

Of course he did. He never got over that — the heartbreak. I think there's even an actual heart condition about a broken heart. But this blockage of mine — so we caught it early because I noticed my body. And I think it's because I'm not emotionally blocked anymore. I pay attention now. And so maybe these blockages are the scars of my past.

Justin McMillen (59:44):

Could be. That's interesting that you bring that up, because I have this amazing friend who I'm going to have on this podcast at some point. He's a physician — he's a psychiatrist. And I got sick a few years back, and I lost a ton of weight really rapidly. I went from like 205 down to 139 really quickly, and I ran into him and I was like, hey —

Justin McMillen (01:00:10):

And he didn't recognize me. And then he was like — he just — I said, yeah. And he goes, what the hell is going on with you? And I said, I keep getting pancreatitis and nobody knows why. They can't figure it out. It's idiopathic. And he put his hand on my chest and said, did they check the heart chakra?

Justin McMillen (01:00:27):

And I was like — I know — are you kidding me? You know. And he's a really hard science guy. But he's also got this other side to him. And he goes, oh, they never even look at that.

Karen Willock (01:00:44):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:00:45):

And I was like, dude, I'm almost dead here. This is where you're talking to me about my heart chakra? Are you kidding me? And then — fast forward — when I finally got everything fixed, I had a surgery done and they fixed my pancreatic duct. It changed my entire life. Like my heart opened.

Karen Willock (01:01:10):

See?

Justin McMillen (01:01:11):

Yeah. It completely changed me. I reconnected to my wife in a way that I've never — it's never gone back. I changed my entire relationship to work. I got all my tools out of storage, I set up that shop over there, I started carving again. My entire relationship to this business changed, and I look at it as the most important shift.

Justin McMillen (01:01:34):

So when I think back on that, I'm like, yeah, it's weird. And Gary, if you listen to this — no offense — it's weird. But he was right. He was right.

Karen Willock (01:01:53):

So I believe that too.

Karen Willock (01:01:54):

And I think you might be on to something. And it also could be an interesting way — maybe how we heal, right? Physically and mentally or emotionally.

Justin McMillen (01:01:57):

So —

Justin McMillen (01:01:58):

Yeah. So working with families — and I think that's what so many people are interested in. I mean, and that's why when you're running groups and doing what you do, the reports we get from people is just extraordinary. And I think a lot of people don't know what a family group is. So why don't you tell us what a family group — that you've put together and built — what it is and what it's not.

Karen Willock (01:02:24):

Okay. So let's start with what it's not. What it's not — it's not a cure-all. It's not going to fix everything. It's a great beginning. It's a starting point. It's not a replacement for a person getting their own mental health work done and their own taking care of their emotional —

Karen Willock (01:02:54):

It's not a fix. There's no fixes. That's the bad news. There's no magic answer. It's one piece of a big puzzle, especially when you're talking about addiction. What it is — we do a lot of educating. Because there's something very powerful about knowledge. First of all, you're never going to treat a problem you don't know you have.

Karen Willock (01:03:22):

And if I think you're my problem — you, who's high and drunk, is my problem — my focus is never going to be on anything that I can do anything about, which is me. I can't change another human being. Try to make a two-year-old take a nap, you know. Good luck with that.

Justin McMillen (01:03:47):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (01:03:48):

And then you're going to make a 20-year-old, or a 25 or 40-year-old, stop drinking and using drugs? Because I tell people — I've never had anybody come in and say my mother told me to stop using and that's why I'm here. Never. 42 years, not once. I have heard them say they told me to move out or get help, and I'm here. I said, that's good enough for me. I don't expect people to come in because they're having a good day.

Karen Willock (01:04:08):

Yeah, you're having a good day — there's a problem here in my office. So what it is, is at first it gives you some education. And we're genuine in it. I let them know — nobody's got this. Nobody has arrived. I haven't arrived, and I've been studying it and practicing it and doing it.

Karen Willock (01:04:30):

And it's like turning a ship — it takes a while to turn the ship. You begin with one thing. So we learn about — I didn't even know what enabling was. I thought I was helping. Different families and different cultures have different — see, my culture, the family I grew up in, was very disconnected. But some families are —

Karen Willock (01:04:54):

There's a false loyalty that happens. Where to say no, or to not allow something to happen, or to say you can't — I am not willing to have you treat me like that anymore — is out of their vocabulary. And so women are usually the first to come forward, because no matter what their kid does or their husband does, they're not going to hate him.

Karen Willock (01:05:25):

They want to hate him, you know. And I help them learn that. Yeah, of course you did — you're so sick of them. Of course. You're relieved they're in treatment — thank God. I'm relieved they're in treatment. Now I don't even know him.

Justin McMillen (01:05:53):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (01:05:53):

So there's this relief that comes. And so education is important. And identification. You know, a nutshell definition of what codependency is — it's a chronic abandonment of self. So that doesn't have anything to do with that person. And if it's not that person, I'll find another person. See, the way I was raised created — there are in my mind two extremes of codependency. One is the amputation, or separation, or getting rid of them. And the other is keeping them enmeshed — so close and so in their life — but neither of them are healthy.

Karen Willock (01:06:23):

What we want is the middle. Right? Care about you, you're important to me — and I will not tolerate this. So we teach, and they learn about how to communicate, but they learn about themselves. You know, I was telling one of the guys over there — he's all worried you're going to talk to my mother about me. I said, we don't care about you.

Karen Willock (01:06:48):

I don't care what you're doing here. I don't read your chart. It's not a session about the person.

Justin McMillen (01:07:13):

No it's not.

Karen Willock (01:07:14):

They want it to be. You know, if you ask most family members how they're doing, they will tell you how their family member is doing.

Justin McMillen (01:07:22):

Is that a pretty clear sign of codependency?

Karen Willock (01:07:25):

Yeah. Yeah. That's that chronic abandonment of self. Yeah. It's like they're not even considering how they're feeling. And if their person is doing okay, they're doing okay. And if their person isn't doing okay, they're not okay either.

Justin McMillen (01:07:41):

So let's rewind before treatment. Clearly, before people show up to your door — and more so before anyone goes to treatment — you've got somebody in active addiction. What are the things that the family needs to know? There's a lot of stuff we could talk about here. So what do you think the family of somebody — let's make it more specific. Parents, their kid is actually using. They know it. It's not a secret. But the kid's not in their life.

Justin McMillen (01:08:08):

The kid's not trying to get sober. Say the family's relatively stable. What would you tell them if they asked you about what's going on in the mind of their kid. How would you describe it — like, you need to understand, this is how your child is seeing the world right now. How would you go about explaining that?

Karen Willock (01:08:33):

Well, their kid — who they think is their kid — they're no longer talking to. Because that kid is now directed by the disease of addiction, and that is who they're dealing with. They're not dealing with that little boy that they loved, or that teenager, or that wonderful person that resides within them. They are now dealing with the addiction. The addiction is in charge.

Karen Willock (01:08:58):

And so anything — what that kid believes is that if they don't use, they're going to die, or they're going to go into withdrawal, or — I'm not hurting anybody but myself, or why do you care? And you're not talking to anything but the addiction. You're not talking to your person anymore.

Justin McMillen (01:09:21):

Is that person still in there?

Karen Willock (01:09:23):

Is there some part of them that can hear — oh, absolutely. But they're behind it. If you think about it, the addiction almost is like an energy unto itself. Yeah. It is the most amazing disease. The remarkable things that people will do — the lies, the stealing, the infidelity — so many things. And parents and spouses often say, I don't even recognize them anymore.

Karen Willock (01:10:00):

I remember looking at my kids and thinking, who are you? What happened? What did I do? Where did I go wrong? What did I miss? This toxic guilt of — how could I have not seen and done something? Even with everything I knew, it was happening in front of my eyes and I didn't see it. You know, it's so painful.

Karen Willock (01:10:28):

Addiction is such a painful disease. I can't remember who I was talking to about this — I found paraphernalia in our garage way back. The kids were — because Joe's 37 now and Pete's 33. This was way back. They were in high school. And I found paraphernalia in the garage and they said it was their friends'.

Karen Willock (01:10:54):

And I said okay. I'm an addiction counselor. I know addiction. And that was the answer I wanted. So there's a denial piece — big. Protecting me from the pain of — oh my God, I don't even know what this is. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to do it. It's so frightening.

Karen Willock (01:11:20):

Is there a big — just — this can't be happening to me or my family? I think that happens in a lot of families. And we believe the lie, you know. They tell us what and we say, okay, I'll never do it again. You know, you almost can't blame them.

Justin McMillen (01:11:41):

No.

Karen Willock (01:11:42):

I don't blame anybody, because it's like we do exactly what we have to do until we can't do it any longer. It's like — you don't want to deal with it. It's like if this, then that, right? So if he or she is doing this, then that means there might be something wrong with me. My job is to raise this person. They're supposed to be healthy. They're not healthy. That means I did something wrong.

Justin McMillen (01:11:59):

And then. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:12:00):

Okay. So say somebody is actively using, they're out there every day, they're not ready to come in. You did a beautiful job explaining the way to see that person — really understanding that the person you're talking to is not the person. Right? As a matter of fact, our job really is to not keep that disease in charge of the organism.

Karen Willock (01:12:28):

Right. That's really our job. And when they come into treatment, that's really our job. Our job is to stand between the disease and them until they can stand on their own. That's why I don't feel bad about anything, really. You know, if you're lying — okay. I mean, but if you're using, I'm going to be like a heat-seeking missile.

Justin McMillen (01:12:53):

That's so — and I'm so visual. So when you said that, I literally imagined, like, this kind of ugly layer that's out here, and then staff between the layer and that person — that layer is just fighting to get back in, which is all the old ideas — and it's like standing guard. And then at the same time, training this person to be able to stand so you can step out of the equation and they can fight for the rest of their life.

Karen Willock (01:13:19):

Yeah. A group assignment I used to do with the guys — I'd have a person sit in the middle, and then they would name different things, like their tribe, their church, their AA meetings, their study, their family, their friends, their partners in recovery. And then all those people would stand around them and I'd be the disease and go busting into things.

Karen Willock (01:13:44):

So I kind of enjoyed it. But they would walk around — this person sitting in the center — and their job was to make sure I couldn't tag them. All I had to do was tag them.

Justin McMillen (01:14:06):

That's cool. And it's visual.

Karen Willock (01:14:07):

Yeah, right.

Justin McMillen (01:14:07):

It makes complete sense.

Karen Willock (01:14:08):

Yeah. And then you start removing things. So you start removing their bodies — they're not in sober living, they're not going to meetings or church or playing basketball with anybody anymore. They're gone. So you start removing things, and then I just walk up and go — ping.

Justin McMillen (01:14:30):

We should do that in the process group here.

Karen Willock (01:14:31):

Oh yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:14:31):

That'd be great.

Karen Willock (01:14:32):

Because it really — and they have to name their support things. They have to name them. And so they start owning responsibility for — I am responsible to build my tribe. It's not the tribe's responsibility to build around me. It's my job.

Justin McMillen (01:14:54):

It's like a moat or a shield.

Karen Willock (01:14:55):

Right. Exactly.

Justin McMillen (01:14:55):

Yeah. I love that framework. That's a really cool way to look at it.

Karen Willock (01:14:57):

So when I get a call — you know, admissions — we actually have more people calling whose people are not ready for treatment yet. And this is the good news. So our program — they're with us for a minimum of eight weeks. And in the family program, once a week for an hour and a half for eight weeks.

Karen Willock (01:15:16):

We email everything to them. They can keep it, they can study it, they can call us. They have our phone numbers. Annie works with me — she does that group. I do the alumni group. And I can't tell you how many people, during that short couple of months, whose kid ends up in treatment.

Karen Willock (01:15:44):

Sometimes — and that's a win. And it says a lot too, because you're working on both sides. Because when the kid comes home from treatment, he has infrastructure to come back to. And that's how this came to be. That's what I remember thinking —

Karen Willock (01:16:02):

We are sending our guys home to a family that hasn't gotten healthier, and expecting them to show up for this guy in a healthy way, but they don't even know how. I spent 90% of my life not knowing how to show up.

Justin McMillen (01:16:29):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (01:16:30):

So key one — teach people how to show up. And the people — fake it better than what you were doing. You know, okay. Don't fake it and continue to be a jerk — I mean, I want to say — but it's better than what you were doing. Make it yours. Yeah. So that's the first thing — they get in, they hear something. So I really love the groups. I love doing the alumni group because we have people that don't show up for a couple years, and then something happens and they call and we get somebody on their kid and we get it moving. Or their husband. And watch their families reconcile — like when I saw that kid yesterday, I remember —

Karen Willock (01:17:15):

The agony his parents were in. I'm going to find their number now and let them know. I'm not going to say his name, but I worked with his parents and I didn't even recognize him. And then he said —

Karen Willock (01:17:33):

He said, you don't remember me, do you? Because I met him on my last trip down three months ago. And I said no. He told me his name and I knew, and I thought, yeah I know that kid. And last night I was eating my dinner and I thought, oh my God, that was that kid. His hair was hanging in his face.

Karen Willock (01:17:50):

You couldn't even see his eyeballs because he was all goth. And holy crap, that's him. I'm going to text his parents — hey, I sat and made jokes with your kid today. You know, he came over and took a stab at teaching class with me the other day.

Justin McMillen (01:18:11):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (01:18:12):

He's been coming over and he's one of the brighter people that we've had around. Things are getting stronger upstairs — it's like the sky's the limit for him. He was immediately identified as just being incredibly bright, like many of the people. And I remember the agony these parents were in. And there's something about — I don't think there's anything lonelier. And this is what I tell them — you don't ever have to do this alone again.

Karen Willock (01:18:35):

Ever. You don't ever have to try and figure out — what am I going to do? What should I do? What shouldn't I do? How do I do it? Where do I do it? When do I do it? I said, we don't have all the answers, but there's always a solution.

Justin McMillen (01:18:55):

Sure.

Karen Willock (01:18:55):

And so I teach them right away how to calm their limbic system down because they're triggered. They've been living at a highly stressed place, thinking their kids are going to be dead, thinking they're going to overdose. Afraid, afraid, afraid, afraid. Arrested in jail. I'm talking to a dad right now — he got his kid out of jail again. I said, maybe he needs to sit there.

Justin McMillen (01:19:19):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (01:19:19):

I said, who made you God to decide what he should or shouldn't do? I said, maybe you need to sit there. He's a white boy in jail — I see a lot of white boys now. I said, maybe he'll think twice before he jumps in a car and drives drunk. But I said, as long as you rescue him and get an attorney that most people can't afford, and he'll get off — what's next? Let him figure it out.

Karen Willock (01:19:40):

Let him have a public defender. Let him experience it. I mean, it's not like this is the first time.

Justin McMillen (01:20:07):

Yeah. The first time I did too — I paid, got the attorney. The last time he had four public defenders looking at three years in the penitentiary.

Karen Willock (01:20:08):

Wow.

Justin McMillen (01:20:08):

So yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:20:09):

Yeah. No — I should, I shouldn't, I can't. What — it's going to be a probably — maybe a hard question. Maybe not. For all the parents out there who have a son or daughter — let's say with parents — what if there was a mantra or something that they should be repeating to themselves in their head, or something they could write and put on their fridge with a magnet, that they could just get in their head — that you think would be the most useful.

Karen Willock (01:20:32):

What would it say? Maybe you don't know exactly, but — there's a couple of things that come to my mind. One of the things that happens for many parents is they make up these terribly scary stories about what's going to happen. And they keep us up at night. They pop in out of nowhere.

Karen Willock (01:20:56):

They ruin a good day. And I had that. I was at Joe's baby's first birthday, and they've been clean almost seven years now. And we're celebrating. Everybody's having fun and — thought the brain — the brain, the brain, the brain. I thought, what if he gets high?

Karen Willock (01:21:25):

What if they use again? Now? Nobody's using. Nothing's happening. But that thought comes into my head. In the past, before I started treating anything, I would run with that — go through the whole scenario. I mean, just this horribly made-up scary story. This is what I — one thing I say to myself about a lot of things.

Karen Willock (01:21:51):

I don't know what's going to happen. I will deal with it when it happens. And I have people that will help me. I'm not dealing with something that's not happening right now.

Justin McMillen (01:22:16):

One of the things — say it again.

Karen Willock (01:22:17):

Okay, so I just say to myself, I don't know what's going to happen. That's the punch word — no. I don't know. It's not — I may think I can make up stuff, right? But I don't. We all believe our made-up stories.

Justin McMillen (01:22:30):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (01:22:30):

So I tell people, if you're going to make it up, make up a good story. Great ending. He's going to get into treatment. You grab 100 kids, everything's going to be wonderful. You'll be one big happy family — because that's just as made-up as a scary one. But if you're going to make it up — that's not how we're wired. As humans, we're wired to be ready for the catastrophe. So I just say to myself — I don't know what's going to happen. That right there places me in a humbled position, because part of being a parent in so many ways is really playing God.

Karen Willock (01:22:58):

You know, you're going to decide where they go to school, when they go to school, what time they eat, where they eat, what time they go to bed. We spent 18 years playing God. And then they turn 18, we're supposed to go — good luck.

Justin McMillen (01:23:15):

Right. Yeah.

Karen Willock (01:23:15):

And we're wired to protect them. It's in our DNA. Just like we're wired to connect. I remember the first time I heard that — I said, we are? Nobody told me. Nobody told me. We're wired to connect. We're supposed to. It's in our DNA. So that's not good news for me. But yes, it is good news. But parents are wired to think about their children.

Karen Willock (01:23:36):

I tell parents this — this is so important. Think about your own life. My kids will always be in my forward vision, joined by their wives or husbands, joined by my grandchildren. Forward vision. Even the exes stay in the picture, but they're just a little removed. My parents are behind me. And the same is true with everybody's parents.

Karen Willock (01:24:09):

So these people's kids that are here — their job is to now get their forward vision of their own life. The difficult thing for parents is standing behind them and grieving that, because that's a loss for parents. You're not their partner — you're not supposed to be. You're not their child — you're not supposed to be. You are behind them.

Karen Willock (01:24:42):

You are the energy that is pushing them forward on their own. Always behind them. But you are not beside them or in front of them. And I don't think very many parents want that to be true. They want to be beside them. I remember the first time I realized this — because I know I'm not as weird as my life has been.

Karen Willock (01:25:11):

I know a lot of people are like me. Stephanie — Joe's partner, his wife now — after she got into treatment, she lived with us for two years while he lived in sober living. She had half of my home office as her bedroom. So I was in doing some paperwork and she was talking to Joe and it sounded like such good news.

Karen Willock (01:25:36):

And this was a thought I had — how come she's telling him and not me? Hey, look at all the shit I've done for those two. See, I was getting mad. And I thought — and this little good voice of mine said, it is his partner. I don't — see that? And then I thought, oh — oh, they are going forward and I'm not invited on that trip, particularly the way I want.

Karen Willock (01:26:12):

So I think with parents — because I've been playing God their whole life — I have to start saying, especially when addiction's on board, I don't know what's going to happen. I do not. I don't know if it's going to be a happy ending or a sad ending or just on and on. I don't know. But I will deal with what happens when it happens.

Karen Willock (01:26:39):

I'm not going to deal with something that is not happening, because what that process does is it keeps me from dealing with what is happening. When I'm in the future, it keeps me from living my life. Most of us who've been living with addiction don't realize that we are responsible for our own happiness and misery. We think they are, and that's why we're dependent on them changing.

Karen Willock (01:27:11):

If they change, then I'm okay. And if they don't change, you're not okay — because that's the other half of that equation. So the key — the piece of freedom for anybody living with addiction — is: I can begin to at least have half of my life back. We begin very short, very small. You're recovering from the most painful and hideous events, and feeling helpless and powerless to change it, and needing to control and manage and fix because you're scared to death.

Karen Willock (01:27:54):

And all of a sudden you're sitting in a group with other people who are — and one of the very first things I let family members do is tell their story. Not their kid's story. What has this been like for you? Because they don't tell their story. Their whole world is about them.

Justin McMillen (01:28:21):

That is so interesting.

Justin McMillen (01:28:22):

So you're really helping people regain a sense of identity, right?

Karen Willock (01:28:47):

And empowerment.

Justin McMillen (01:28:47):

And empowerment.

Karen Willock (01:28:50):

And I tell them — we're teaching your kids the same thing, if they're with us. How to be empowered, how to be autonomous, how to be okay regardless of what's going on. Somewhere early on in my life, I knew that in order to survive, I needed to be okay regardless of what was going on in my world.

Karen Willock (01:29:11):

And that was my job to figure that out — how to be okay regardless. Like, my mom had threatened to drop me and my brother off at Saint James Orphanage, and my brother — it scared him. I was a year older, not much older. I wasn't very old, but I told him, don't worry — I volunteered there so I'd know how we could get out.

Karen Willock (01:29:11):

See? So already — that part of me — I'm a fighter. Not a fighter, so I'm going to figure out. And it's the same with what I do now. Okay, you've got this big storm going on. We have a way out of that storm. Even if the storm doesn't stop. Because there are no guarantees about what's going to happen with the storm.

Justin McMillen (01:29:34):

Yeah.

Karen Willock (01:29:35):

The other thing I think I would tell parents — the biggest thing is — God, reach out. Dear God, don't try to do this alone. Don't be alone. There's nothing lonelier. Even with your friends and people in your life — couples stop talking to each other because men deal with this different than women. People are lying to each other about what they're doing or not doing.

Karen Willock (01:30:04):

There's all these dynamics that happen in a family when you have addiction and it creates these wedges. Men tend to get angry and women tend to get sad. And you know — mental illness needs to grow up. And I've said to one of the guys, I think you do too. Because I said, you throw little temper tantrums.

Karen Willock (01:30:32):

And I said, that's not very adult. Because it's not — when I'm acting like a child, whether I'm drunk or sober. And I do say to folks — you've got to wonder, because we've all done some crazy things as family members. And I said, we're not high. So you want to think about that. Some of the stuff you've done — you're not high.

Karen Willock (01:30:53):

You can't say, well I was — and I was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. You're thinking, oh my gosh. Yeah. Because you can tell — because it is — I love it because there's solidarity in suffering. There's something that happens when individuals come together with a common pain. It has different faces, but there's solidarity in suffering.

Justin McMillen (01:31:26):

Yeah, we bond through pain.

Justin McMillen (01:31:27):

And I think there's an evolutionary argument for it — that through human history, our ability to form bonds was the key to our survival. And daily our survival was external. There was always a threat. And so we conditioned ourselves through natural selection to: external threat, unify. External threat, unify. And then we became this sort of tribal organism that's like — we have to come together right now in order to fight against this external threat.

Justin McMillen (01:32:04):

And then the people who didn't do well with that, they died off. And then we just got better and better at that. And now it's so conditioned — where if you get a group of people that are all experiencing the same external threat, in this case a family member who could die, then they're naturally just going to come together. Especially if you, as you do within the group, pull everyone together through understanding that — as much as everyone feels like their situation is so unique —

Karen Willock (01:32:34):

Yeah. It is. It's not.

Justin McMillen (01:32:36):

Right. So — and the shame that goes with addiction, and the prejudice and stigma — there's hardly a family that isn't affected in some way anymore. For sure. I mean, I think the latest thing I read was that 22 people are affected by one person's addiction. Which actually, when you think about it — you have employers, you have employees, you have whoever was serviced by them just at work.

Justin McMillen (01:33:12):

You can have 5 or 6. And I think I was thinking about this the other day — about the average perception of the addict. It's changing. Because like you said, it's way more in the news and everybody knows somebody who — the cases are so extreme that it's death. Right? So it always becomes talked about, aside from the hidden-away thing — your cousin drinks all the time. It's like people are dying.

Justin McMillen (01:33:38):

So you look at the numbers and it's like 10% is the most conservative number of people in active substance use. But if you consider that — and you think about walking down the street — oh, Costa Mesa or Portland has so many addicts. You see those people on the street. If you consider the number of people on the street compared to the population in that area, it isn't even close to 10%.

Justin McMillen (01:34:05):

Right. And so what you're really seeing, right, is mostly mental health issues.

Karen Willock (01:34:23):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:34:24):

And that really the addictions are going on — they're all in their homes. So the public, when they think addict, they just picture the guy stumbling down the street talking to himself, which in most cases is schizophrenia.

Justin McMillen (01:34:34):

Right. And they're not realizing that the vast majority of people that are using are inside of homes. And they're going to work.

Karen Willock (01:34:59):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:35:00):

They're looking like productive members of society. And why I think that's important is because I still think a lot of the folks that show up — the families that show up — they think they're battling because it's like, well, my son is not — it's not that guy on the street. Or they're only using pot.

Karen Willock (01:35:10):

Yeah. That's a joke most of the time.

Justin McMillen (01:35:12):

Well, nowadays too, that's a — there's a difference there.

Karen Willock (01:35:19):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:35:25):

So I like this — the mantra. So there are sort of three steps to that. But if a person keeps that in their head, it can at least stop them from ruminating and making up the worst story. And can keep them grounded in actually doing action now, rather than being stuck in a later time. Because that's really what we're all avoiding — we're avoiding this now piece. What is really going on right now? And how come I don't want to look at it? We want to be curious about ourselves. How come I — I remember sitting in my office —

Karen Willock (01:35:55):

This was back when I was working — it was at Serenity Lane. And Joe was using, and he got ahold of me one morning. This is when he had the Western Union money. I remember that back in the day — Western Unioned him $50.

Karen Willock (01:36:15):

And this is the thought I had — what if this is the $50 that kills him? It was just, again, just a thought. And I said to him, I'll send it to you this time, Joe, but I will not again. I could never live with myself. Was my $50 the one that took you out? Now, and that can absolutely happen.

Karen Willock (01:36:36):

Absolutely. I have parents — I have them live at home so they don't die. And then they call me. And their kid died at home. See, those are all delusions of power. It's all — I caused it, I can cure it, it's my fault. I was an awful parent to my first one, for sure, and not much better because I overindulged with my second set.

Karen Willock (01:37:00):

I wasn't going to do this. I was going to do this. So I did too much or too little. I was never in the middle.

Justin McMillen (01:37:20):

What do you think the most common challenge is for parents letting their kids suffer the natural consequences of their decisions?

Karen Willock (01:37:22):

Oh, that was easy to answer. Oh yeah. It's the hardest. It's the hardest — letting —

Justin McMillen (01:37:29):

Giving them the dignity of their own choices. Even if you don't agree.

Karen Willock (01:37:30):

Is that front and center.

Karen Willock (01:37:30):

Yeah. I tell them that all the time. I said, wow, that's a crappy choice. And they get to make it. Yeah. What are you going to do? What's your choice? So it's always back to — I cannot — I gotta quit playing God. I don't know what's best. What I thought was the worst that happened was the best for me.

Karen Willock (01:37:55):

What I thought was the best almost killed me. How do I know what's good or bad? I don't know, until years later. A lot of times, yeah. You don't know until you call it. Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:38:20):

That's — so there's a lot of this discussion around removal, or at least getting out of the way and not taking ownership of all these behaviors.

Justin McMillen (01:38:22):

But what role should a parent play, if any, in the process of going from addicted — so we're not even talking about family group yet, this is all before — what do you tell parents or loved ones around what role they should play, if any, in a person's finding help or recovery? Where are the lines?

Karen Willock (01:38:48):

Well, you know, if somebody is —

Karen Willock (01:38:50):

Even if they're not asking for help, I would investigate help. Because when they ask, I'm going to have it ready. I give resources to parents all the time. If they need detox, here's a list. If they need sober living, here's the list. They have the list. Make the calls for them — they're not able.

Justin McMillen (01:39:12):

Is that cathartic? Just to have —

Karen Willock (01:39:13):

Yeah. Get into action around something you can control — which is the opportunities there when it's time. And getting the information. Because there are a lot of not-good places. Most of them. Yeah. So look into it, make phone calls, talk, be the voice for them. If my kid — when my kid — so David, I dropped him off at the doors of a treatment center back in the day. Because he's been clean — in July it'll be like 15 or 16 years now.

Karen Willock (01:39:45):

Back in the day. And Joe — he got out of jail at 11:00 at night. He calls Stephanie. She's due to go into a three-month program the next day. I made all those calls. And she called me and I said, are you willing to do what I ask you to do?

Karen Willock (01:40:13):

And that means going to treatment — inpatient — for more than ten days.

Karen Willock (01:40:20):

Yes or no? That's all I need. And her grandmother — I later found out — was sitting beside her saying yes. She said yes. And she used again before she got to my house that day. It's the only time I've seen Stephanie cry was that day. I've come to love her very, very much. I think my son probably would have been dead if it hadn't been for her.

Karen Willock (01:40:49):

And I used to blame her so frightfully for his use. And I was wrong. So he got out of jail at 11 p.m. She was due to go in the next day. He was in for three weeks. She was only in for a week. It was the first time she'd ever been arrested. And that was enough. I thought that was kind of cute.

Karen Willock (01:41:12):

She's a very sweet young lady. And she came and told me they're letting him out at 11 p.m. at night. What's a drug addict coming out of — he was still detoxing, still picking at the air. I mean, he was in bad shape. Detox in jail.

Karen Willock (01:41:42):

And I said, Stephanie, if you're not going to go into treatment tomorrow morning, I'll drop you off with him. If you're going to go — I'll get him a place by tomorrow night. And she said, I'm going. So we picked him up. He was walking down the street right by where they used to use, and we picked him up and brought him back to the house. And she told him, I'm not willing to do this.

Karen Willock (01:42:07):

I'm going into treatment. Now, realize — I know every agency in Portland. I've worked in the field — this was seven years ago — so well over 30 years. I knew everybody. And we took Stephanie to the place where she went in. And I'm standing on the street with Joe. Somebody else was with us — I can't even remember.

Karen Willock (01:42:33):

It was such a surreal moment. And I called Betsy and I said, Betsy, what am I going to do? Where can he be? And she said, I'll get him in today. And then I decided not to, because I didn't want him in my shadow. You know, here — I work here, everybody knows me. I'm kind of a big personality person.

Karen Willock (01:43:00):

I'm not quiet and reserved, and I wanted him to have his space. So she gave me the number of a place and I got him lined up. He was in sober living that night and started in PHP at this place the next day — right in the heart of downtown Portland, with every drug dealer within minutes.

Karen Willock (01:43:23):

And I have some pictures of him back then — he was just a shadow of himself. And he went — he got his — well, a job. Getting out, working it. I used to think the sign said Jack Off, but I guess it says Jackson — I was reading it wrong all these years. I have dyslexia.

Justin McMillen (01:43:46):

Yeah. You probably have to cut that.

Karen Willock (01:43:47):

No, you're not cutting that though.

Karen Willock (01:43:48):

And I was afraid and I wanted to tell him to get a different job, or don't get a job that's not safe. I'll pay your way. Because I was afraid he'd use there. And so I had to call my people and they said, let him work.

Karen Willock (01:44:06):

I said, it's a bad place. How do you know? I know, I know — don't you know who I am? I know everything. And they said, let him work. Ends up like three guys he worked with were all in recovery. Yeah. There were a lot of dope dealers, but they were also all in recovery.

Karen Willock (01:44:23):

Who was I? Yeah. And it was walking distance.

Justin McMillen (01:44:35):

So you did that thing where you created this story.

Karen Willock (01:44:37):

Exactly. And then I feel compelled to take action. And we're just like a ball. It's — we gotta — time. The time — we got time. Okay? I got a class waiting for me. One more question.

Justin McMillen (01:44:51):

You're describing that fear and running — it's a limbic response.

Karen Willock (01:45:25):

Absolutely.

Justin McMillen (01:45:26):

Do you use that to explain?

Karen Willock (01:45:28):

Yes. They learn about the brain and the body. So the very first thing — very first class — is brain and body. You learn how your limbic system reacts. You always have your intelligence, which you need online. If your kid's really in trouble, you want your intelligence making decisions — not your reactive limbic primitive brain.

Justin McMillen (01:45:50):

Wow. That's incredible. Because it's a perfect opportunity for somebody to really step into the shoes of the person that they're worried about — be like, you realize that this thing you're doing is exactly what they're doing. But the solution to my problem is drugs. And my solution is you. Yeah — I'll think about you instead of taking care of my own business.

Karen Willock (01:46:18):

Oh, I know what I would write — my business, not my business.

Justin McMillen (01:46:19):

So you can make a choice.

Karen Willock (01:46:22):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:46:22):

Because I ask myself that question a lot — my business, not my business — those are two questions.

Karen Willock (01:46:30):

Really? Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:46:30):

Yeah. So — you're a parent, your kid doesn't want help. Get resources and then focus on yourself — when you change, the whole system changes.

Karen Willock (01:46:45):

I've seen it a million times.

Justin McMillen (01:46:45):

I don't know what's going to happen, but I know that system will never be the same when a parent changes. And it's the energy of a parent — nobody is ever going to love you like a parent, ever. And that energy, when you get yourself grounded and into taking care of your business and take your hands off, pays off. And gives somebody — who wants their mother or father telling them what to do — hand them off to somebody else. Give them their own dignity.

Karen Willock (01:46:59):

They already feel lower than a snake's belly. You know, they don't need to feel lower in front of you. Just hand them off. So get your resources lined up, get help for yourself. And — I love you and I care about you, and I'll support you going to treatment. That's my bottom line. I love you.

Karen Willock (01:47:20):

I care about you. And I'll support you getting help — anything. I love you and I care about you. I'll pay for your medication if you don't have the money. No — that's it.

Justin McMillen (01:47:31):

So it's not — I hate you, you drive me crazy, you make my life miserable. Or any other bargaining.

Karen Willock (01:47:38):

I'd say yes.