Transcript

Intro (00:40):

I am the experiment. You can write your own story. Not stop trying and don't give into the fear.

Defer (00:52):

I can, I like. I mean, I was kind of out of my... I was out of my mind. We talked last time, I was gone. I was coming off of... I'd been there, a wild horse row. I fell for you. And that was... I was sick for two days afterwards. I was in pain around. Yeah. I was like...

(01:08):

I was like that wild horse. And I was like, man, do like... And, you know, like, that's... that's why I like, like, you know, it was just I,

(01:18):

Yeah, it was funny because, like, the... I would say the relapse, so to speak, or whatever, was very subtle because it was off of things that are like legalized now, like mushrooms, Adderall and stuff. Like those things. And then you put those substances with somebody that has an addictive, extreme personality — you do too — I'm going to do 12, right?

(01:42):

You know what I mean? So it becomes hard. But then I blame myself because I force myself into all these nootropics and, okay, this is going to open these pathways and, you know, it's just going to go all bad. Why do you think... why do you think some people in this world, it's not due to like what?

Justin McMillen (02:00):

Why are some people... why, what is it that makes some people... I think... I think because what I started realizing is, I think if I do something, I want the maximum effect.

Defer (02:22):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (02:22):

You know what I mean? And it's not like... like if I drink, I'm drinking to get drunk. I'm not drinking because... oh wow, this is a 1902 Chartreuse, whatever. Right. You know what I mean? I'm doing it for the effect. And I've never... I don't think I've ever drank anything for the taste.

Defer (02:39):

No.

Justin McMillen (02:39):

You know where people are like, wow, this is a craft beer. This is an aged wine. This is this Japanese whiskey that's $2,000. Because I've... I've had all that offered to me, but it's never been for the taste. It's been for the effect.

Defer (03:08):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (03:08):

You know, and it's interesting.

Defer (03:08):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (03:08):

I think you're... do you think that people that use drugs in that way, that they do that in all areas of their life outside of use? Like, do you think you go hard in all things you do?

Defer (03:33):

I think, yes. Yeah. And I think, yes, I could probably quit that too — being extreme on all levels, you know what I'm saying? Like with art, it could be extreme in everything. It could be extreme, you know, even... yeah. And then I guess, too, it's just a combination of everything, man. Just even love. It's like we come from a different era where it was the 80s and there was, like, the hopeless romantic, right?

Justin McMillen (03:55):

Right.

Defer (03:55):

They don't got none of that now. Now it's like on a screen, right? Or the generic Tinder or whatever.

Justin McMillen (04:17):

Yeah.

Defer (04:17):

Whatever.

Justin McMillen (04:17):

Right.

Defer (04:17):

So that app where you just like scroll through these, you know, manicured... whatever. Profiles or whatever.

Justin McMillen (04:24):

Yeah.

Defer (04:24):

It's the lucky thing — I can't get into it because it's so fake. You know where... you know, actually, back there a week on from you, you had to meet the person or there's a handwritten note at the mall.

Justin McMillen (04:37):

Right.

Defer (04:37):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (04:37):

Exactly.

Defer (04:37):

What.

Justin McMillen (04:37):

Yeah.

Defer (04:37):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (04:37):

Yeah, exactly.

Defer (04:37):

Yeah. That's what I'm trying to say. So there's like... there's, you know, in that sense, I think I was saved in terms of like not falling into anything generic where it's like, okay. You know.

Justin McMillen (04:40):

Yeah.

Defer (04:40):

So yeah. So... so I'm glad to have you on here. And we tried to do this before, and that's what you were getting at in the beginning.

Justin McMillen (05:01):

Right.

Defer (05:01):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (05:01):

Yeah, yeah.

Defer (05:01):

And...

Justin McMillen (05:01):

But I think it's good to have you here. And what I'd love to do today is to get really into kind of who you are as a human and what built you.

Defer (05:37):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (05:37):

You know, you have a very, very interesting and unusual background.

Defer (05:57):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (05:57):

Yeah, very.

Defer (05:57):

And...

Justin McMillen (05:57):

Your story is painful. It's definitely inspirational. And then where you found yourself now is... it's like, unbelievable. You're one of the rarest of the rare out there. So yeah. So... artist. Right?

Defer (06:26):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (06:26):

Yeah.

Defer (06:26):

You're...

Justin McMillen (06:26):

You're a professional artist. You make a living as an artist.

Defer (06:34):

Yeah, yeah.

Justin McMillen (06:34):

How old are you?

Defer (06:37):

Guess. I ain't got, say my age. I gotta figure it out there. Okay. Yeah. I'm ageless.

Justin McMillen (06:49):

Ageless.

Defer (06:49):

Sometimes.

Justin McMillen (06:49):

Yeah, yeah.

Defer (06:49):

Because I think once you acknowledge that, then you start aging. That makes sense. I mean, I hate to say it. I'm not trying to be, like, mysterious or nothing, but I think once you say something and you acknowledge it, then you feed into it. I like eggs, and Gracie said I'm ageless.

Justin McMillen (07:09):

Yeah.

Defer (07:09):

And you're kind of like, hey, I'm not... I'm timeless. What do you mean when you say... when you say something like that, are you talking about, like, the power of words? Is that what you mean?

Justin McMillen (07:27):

I think so too.

Defer (07:27):

And I think, once you start like, oh, I'm getting old, I should be feeling this way at a certain age... I think it kind of subliminally sinks in. It's almost like when you're talking, your brain's listening.

Justin McMillen (07:50):

Yeah, exactly.

Defer (07:50):

Yeah.

(07:50):

So I... I'd rather not acknowledge certain things. And I think... I think it's a double edged sword, too. Sometimes if you acknowledge you're an addict, you'd be like, I'm an addict, I'm an addict, okay? I'm an alcoholic. I'm this. I'm whatever. I believe in diagnosing yourself and acknowledging certain things, but saying it a lot all the time — I don't think that's a good idea for me. I'm just speaking from personal experience, and everybody... labels suck.

Justin McMillen (08:12):

Yeah, yeah.

Defer (08:12):

And I think... I think once you start acknowledging things, to each his own, right? I can only give my perspective because I think if whoever's a know-it-all doesn't know at all, you know what I mean? And I'm just speaking solely from my perspective and not... I'm only giving solely my perspective.

Justin McMillen (08:28):

Sure.

Defer (08:28):

And my experience. You know, that's all. I think that's all you can in life. That's the best we could do, you know?

Justin McMillen (08:55):

Yeah.

Defer (08:55):

People that try to speak outside of that, I think it's... it's too much anyway. And it's easy to identify — like this person doesn't know. Yeah. And it's, it's kind of crazy because I think everything's a paradox or a contradiction, you know, and I think I'm a living contradiction to everything.

Justin McMillen (09:18):

You know what I mean?

Defer (09:18):

How so?

Justin McMillen (09:18):

I don't know, I just feel like... anything could be a false title. It could be money, it could be a leader, a political party. It could be anything. And you can follow something and somewhere down the line that'll, you know, it'll contradict it — whatever you're pushing for. You know what I mean?

Defer (09:36):

I think so. I could see that happening in anything on any level, you know what I mean? Where it could be... you could stand for something at a certain time. And I think you stand for won't be what you expected it to be, or what... it might not turn out the way you want it to be. It's almost like making things concrete.

Justin McMillen (09:53):

Exactly.

Defer (09:53):

It's dangerous. And that even ties into the labels too, right? So it's like just this idea of being dogmatic or like, this is the absolute way.

Justin McMillen (10:07):

Yeah, exactly.

Defer (10:07):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (10:07):

Yeah.

Defer (10:07):

That doesn't give room for the nature of nature.

Justin McMillen (10:28):

Exactly.

Defer (10:28):

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Justin McMillen (10:29):

Moving. Right.

Defer (10:29):

It's constantly changing and evolving. So we're not... we're not static. We're dynamic. And so we have to think dynamically as well.

Justin McMillen (10:47):

Yeah.

(10:47):

Your life has been filled with dynamic changes over time. You were... were you raised... I was born in Los... born and raised in Los Angeles.

Defer (11:09):

Okay.

Justin McMillen (11:09):

Boyle Heights, that's where I grew up when I was younger.

Defer (11:09):

All right.

Justin McMillen (11:09):

I... you have lots of family members? Brothers and sisters?

Defer (11:29):

Yeah, I do. When I talk about them. Okay.

Justin McMillen (11:29):

Yeah.

Defer (11:29):

You got a good family?

Justin McMillen (11:29):

Yeah.

Defer (11:29):

Oh, good. And then it's just, you know, I... I may want to talk about the ancient lineage. You know, more. I want to hear about that. Is it safe to say you have samurai blood, or, to be exact, ninja blood?

Justin McMillen (11:44):

Okay.

Defer (11:44):

Which is Shinobi, which is from Iga Province. Yeah. And then it's actually... would be the backwoods, I would say more, you know. And there's calligraphy in my blood too.

Justin McMillen (12:11):

Yeah.

Defer (12:11):

Directly. Yeah. So I think some of that... yeah, some of that is innate. You know, the calligraphy. And I think there's traits that are passed down from generation to generation, you know.

Justin McMillen (12:31):

So I think it's in your DNA or something.

Defer (12:32):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (12:32):

I would... I would like to think so, because some of it feels like it's flowing from another dimension, or it's been ingrained in me, you know. So when did you start noticing that? Was it when you were young, this ability to sort of intuitively channel, like what's going on — on your shirt, or all the murals that you paint?

Defer (12:53):

Yeah.

(12:53):

I yeah, I think it's crazy because, when I was very young, the first thing I did was I took crayons to the wall and I started, you know, scribbling on the wall. And, you know, obviously my parents were upset. Like, you know, my dad was like a neat freak, you know what I mean? He's like, oh, what are you doing?

(13:15):

You know what I mean? But, you know, I was a child. But I noticed that, like, that was one of the first things I did — I wrote on the walls — and I kept doing it. And then I never stopped. Yeah, yeah. And it's crazy. And I think to the genesis of everything, it's like what's the first thing you learn, you know, outside of your name. You know, what's your name?

Justin McMillen (13:39):

You know...

Defer (13:39):

Like, but you write your name, you know. You write your name first and last, and then you write it on your nametag. I don't know if they do that now. It's probably a QR code or something. Right. But you know what I'm saying? You write your name, and you think about it — the signature is the most powerful thing.

Justin McMillen (14:03):

Hmm.

Defer (14:04):

It enacts war. A signature. Like, you know, you sign a check, you sign anything, any legal document, small or large, you have a signature. Now it's like an autofill thing, but it's still a signature. Yeah. You know, and that's cool. That's an interesting... that's such a cool side. Yeah. So if anything, we're all taggers, right?

Justin McMillen (14:40):

Right.

Defer (14:40):

I mean, that's just a label, but we've all learned to write our names. And I think Voltaire said, you know, as a child or as an adolescent, I wanted to write my name everywhere. Voltaire said that, you know, what a great thinker. And if you think about everything, if you look at any genesis of everything, what is it?

(15:04):

Advertising. Look at Nike. You want to get that logo everywhere, right? You know, even this podcast is a signature of your personality, and it's a collaboration of two identities. Yeah. You know, yours and mine. So this is a serious conversation. Yeah. And yeah, what you're talking about is ancient. I mean, it's cave paintings, right?

Justin McMillen (15:37):

It's exactly.

Defer (15:37):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (15:37):

It's like somehow man figured out how to take what was in here, and then when we started using our hands, we were like... exactly. That's like the scratch, right? It was scratch.

Defer (16:01):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (16:01):

And, you know, that's that's why they say, like, graffiti goes back to the ancient days, right? You know, the cave paintings. And there were etchings on the wall, so there were scratches. The Roman Empire did that too, you know. Even... I think Caravaggio did a tag because he used to get in a lot of fights. The art of Caravaggio. And they, I guess legend had it, they put him into... like a... not a moat. But, what do you call those... wells? You know, where they put...

Defer (16:22):

You know, where they see it? Wells.

Justin McMillen (16:22):

But it was empty. Well, but they would put him in there to do his, like, time. And he said he used to scratch his name in there, you know, on the rocks or whatever. And a lot of Roman soldiers did that — they'd scratch their name into the wall. Well, it's... I mean, I think when archeologists look at human history, one of the strongest indications that humans were intelligent and weren't just running around as hunter gatherers is like when we start seeing depictions on walls.

Defer (16:40):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (16:40):

You know. You can... it's like, okay, these people were thinking. They were taking abstract ideas out of their head.

Defer (17:04):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (17:04):

And they were moving them out into the world. And communicating and expressing themselves.

Defer (17:24):

Exactly.

Justin McMillen (17:24):

Yeah.

Defer (17:24):

And then if you think about everything is a campaign, right? Or even a political campaign, whether they're paying for it or not, they're putting their name everywhere. You know what I mean? Vote for so-and-so, buy this, do this. It's all... you know, I guess my form would be a guerrilla warfare extreme of that.

Justin McMillen (17:45):

Yeah.

Defer (17:45):

But it's the same mentality, right? You know what I mean? But then do you see that everywhere? I mean, now because of the way you think, I mean, do you just look around and you just see symbols constantly?

Justin McMillen (18:06):

Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. And then you see pattern recognition. And then you see that behavior — maybe guerrilla in a certain sense, but it's what people do naturally. Right. You know what I mean? If you want to build your business, you want to get your brand everywhere. And then I guess maybe the same ethos goes for a graffiti writer, right?

Defer (18:32):

You know.

(18:32):

And then I kind of took regular language or text and I made it spiritual, or integrated it into spiritual meaning, you know — the unknown. I call it the unknown because nobody knows. We have books and codices, but I think it's... you know, we only use this much of our brain. Right? So therefore, I don't know what it is.

Justin McMillen (18:53):

Yeah.

Defer (18:53):

It looks like an ancient language. Yeah. And I think you've said this several times. Yeah. How would you describe... man, this is a big subject. Well let me... let me... I want to get into that, but I want to go back to your coloring on the wall.

Justin McMillen (19:15):

Yeah.

Defer (19:15):

Boyle Heights. Boyle... excuse me.

Justin McMillen (19:18):

Hi.

Defer (19:18):

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. And then you... so, did you start tagging when you were in high school, or how did that all come to be? Yeah. So there was... you know, my neighborhood, there was like a lot of neighborhood graffiti — like, I guess what you'd call gang graffiti — which was like, you know, that was there. And there was a lot of cultural murals too, you know. A lot of it had to do with Mexican heritage, you know, cultural figures, iconic and... and ancient Aztec mythology on the walls by, like, the East L.A. streets.

Justin McMillen (19:33):

Capers.

Defer (19:33):

So that was like my visual foray into art. You know, where I saw it — on the walls. You saw it, but you... so you grew up around it. And then when you said gang related, what can you describe... like what was your childhood like? Was it a middle class, normal neighborhood, or were you... how? It was kind of a gang area.

Justin McMillen (19:50):

Initially, yeah. The area was like, traditionally, you know, a gang area. But at the time I was growing up as a teenager, there was like... hip hop was infused. Like, obviously there wasn't the internet. So we saw glimpses of New York hip hop in a movie called Style Wars and Wild Style. And then, you know, and then also from Boyle Heights at fourth grade, I was bussed out because they had a bussing program which wanted to integrate people from all over the city.

Defer (20:14):

So what's called a magnet program. So I went to a school called CPS, and it actually... you had people from Beverly Hills, from East L.A., from Glendale, or all over the city. And which was a good thing because it integrated people. And then it was actually from fourth grade to 12th grade. So you were in... you weren't just junior high, you know. You had from... I went there from fourth grade to like eighth grade.

Justin McMillen (20:31):

This is where... like a melting pot.

Defer (20:53):

Yeah. Different.

Justin McMillen (20:53):

Yeah.

Defer (20:53):

It was a melting pot. And you said your... your... but your neighborhood in Boyle Heights was primarily Hispanic.

Justin McMillen (21:13):

Yeah.

Defer (21:13):

And not Japanese.

Justin McMillen (21:13):

Yeah.

Defer (21:13):

Japanese. Yeah. Was that a challenge as a kid? Oh yeah. Yeah. I remember it was just like being a minority, like on a... like John Wick, you know. You had to fight. Everybody was just like, yeah. So I... yeah, got into a lot of fights, you know, got whatever you call it, bullied, outnumbered or whatever. So it sharpened me, you know. There my dad was pretty... you know, he was pretty stoic, you know, and he was always this guy: just take your beatings, you know, fight back.

Justin McMillen (21:36):

Whatever. Where does that come from in him, you think?

Defer (21:54):

I think his upbringing, too. He kind of grew up there also. And, you know, my grandparents were interned on both sides — mother and father — that were in internment camps. And that was due to World War Two. And, ironic... you know, that's the paradox. The people that were interned, like, were the 442nd, which was the most decorated fighting unit in the United States history. That's the paradox of it.

Justin McMillen (22:20):

Right.

Defer (22:20):

Guys. That's, you know. Yeah. So, you know, that was... was that talked about when you were a kid? No, no. You know, it was... well, yeah, in a way, because my mom was part of redress and reparations.

Justin McMillen (22:39):

So they fought for reparations, you know, because, you know, when the government came in, they took everybody. If you owned property, they just took it. You could only take two bags with you — whatever you can carry, carry-on luggage — and that's all up here. And then when they were released, you know, you had nothing. They weren't working at the time or nothing.

Defer (22:58):

So. And then initially, my... they went to Detroit because, you know, there was the auto industry, and the word was that they would take hard workers and they wouldn't, you know, discriminate against you or whatever. So, yeah, it was... yeah, I heard some of the stories and stuff, and that was the one thing I noticed about my grandparents.

(23:21):

They never complained about it, or cried about it, or anything. You know, proud... proud Americans.

Justin McMillen (23:45):

Yeah.

Defer (23:45):

They were very proud Americans. And they didn't... you know, they didn't... I didn't hear them bad mouth the government or anything. They just took it and, you know, lived humbly.

Justin McMillen (24:09):

That's amazing.

Defer (24:09):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (24:09):

That's... I love that about Japanese culture. And my wife is half Japanese, you know. And yeah, yeah, there's a stoicism with Japanese people and just being unaffected.

Defer (24:25):

Yeah. That is... everybody I think can admire and learn from that. Yeah. So you were raised in that house, so you're getting whooped on the street, coming home?

Justin McMillen (24:41):

Yeah.

Defer (24:41):

Yeah, yeah. Take your... yeah. Taking licks. And yeah, I was... I couldn't understand it because I was very, as a kid, I was very introverted, you know what I mean? And then just... and ironically, when I went to school, at CPS — being that it was from fourth grade to 12th grade — the Japanese kids on the west side, they used to beat me up. I mean, so it had nothing to do with race or anything. And I was singled out, you know what I mean?

(25:03):

There were other Japanese kids that went with me to that school, but I was singled out. And when I had to go out with all of them, it was even worse because they were older. They were older and bigger than me. So you didn't have... you weren't... was it? You were trying to find a crew and it was like, yeah, accept it over here because you're from Boyle Heights.

Justin McMillen (25:21):

Yeah, it's all Hispanic.

Defer (25:38):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (25:38):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then you're also mixed in with the Beverly Hills kids.

Defer (25:57):

Yeah, yeah.

Justin McMillen (25:57):

Yeah.

Defer (25:58):

So that was pretty interesting, you know, as I... I had to have helped build you, though.

Justin McMillen (26:18):

Yeah.

Defer (26:18):

I mean, in retrospect, I look back at the rich experience. It looks... it's almost like a simulation, you know what I mean? Like, everything was like these experiences. Like, I got integrated into punk rock and skating in its inception, in its early days. Sure. You know, so I went to punk rock gigs, you know, I was around skateboarding. Wasn't good. But, you know, when skateboarding was a big thing. Yeah. And that's why it's kind of crazy how it all kind of like, you know, kind of melds together and it comes together. You know, during that time, there was kind of a big street cultural explosion. Right.

Justin McMillen (26:55):

You know.

Defer (26:55):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There was a lot going on. I mean you're talking about hip hop. The skateboard culture was huge at that point. And then it was coming out of the 70s and like the Dogtown stuff.

Justin McMillen (27:17):

Yeah.

Defer (27:17):

All that.

Justin McMillen (27:17):

And then graffiti culture was gaining. And what were you... were you gravitating towards gang life or towards like...

Defer (27:45):

Well yeah. You know, it was crazy. I was like, I was a part of all of it, man. I skated, I did graffiti, obviously. I was in a punk rock... went to punk rock gigs at the Olympic Auditorium, saw GBH, and then they outlawed that place because it got too wild. And then they had a place in Long Beach called Fender's Ballroom. And, you know, we went there in the 80s, you know, and, you know, the mosh... you know, they call it mosh. We just called it The Pit, you know, go in there and go wild. And then punk rock started dying. And then we listened to speed metal and Metallica came out and it was kind of toned down.

(28:11):

But then so I... I've been, like, immersed in all these cultures, like, you know, just stumbled upon them and got immersed. And I always saw there was a vacuum. Like, I remember breakdancing was big.

Justin McMillen (28:50):

Yeah.

Defer (28:50):

But then... that's right. It was wild. They made breakdancing like, illegal, like in Westwood or Hollywood. Like they had a curfew law, so kids couldn't be out past... I think it was 9 or 10 or whatever. So they had all the news and you'd be arrested if you're loitering. And you know, so it's like you're making dancing illegal. So I saw a lot of people, you know, they stopped going and it kind of died out. Like maybe it was a fad or whatever.

(29:08):

It died out. But then there was this big vacuum. And then that movie Colors came out and people were like, okay, I'm going to be in a gang. And the gangs, like, resurfaced. And I kind of see these... I don't know if they're patterns where it's like, you know, like the youth have so much energy and it has to be channeled somewhere. You know, maybe now it's like these elaborate video games and social media where people are just... where we're all stuck on these phones.

(29:36):

Right. You know what I mean? Where they weren't there. So you physically had to be places, you physically had to break, you physically had to do things. You know, you went to a concert, a punk rocker, you'd be watching on YouTube now. But you know what I mean? Like things like that, where it's like you can be more sedentary now, but it was more like you were immersed physically into everything.

Justin McMillen (29:56):

Not digitally.

Defer (29:56):

Not digitally.

Justin McMillen (29:56):

Right? I mean, which is... which captivates all of us. Yeah. I mean, we're like... you send me location, I'm going to be here. You know what I mean? And that's why I think physically I was immersed in everything. Yeah.

Defer (30:13):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (30:13):

Did you... there's no question that your art has a strong spiritual undertone to it.

Defer (30:31):

Yeah, yeah.

Justin McMillen (30:31):

Did you always have a spiritual side when you were younger too?

Defer (30:55):

Yeah. I have, actually. Like, obviously my... you know, my grandparents were kind of immersed in like... well, not my... I wouldn't say my grandfather, but my grandma was in like kind of like a semi... I guess it was a Japanese religion or whatever. And she made us go and stuff. But as a kid I... you know, I didn't believe or anything. I was just going through the motions to make her happy, you know.

Justin McMillen (31:11):

So. But not necessarily. I don't mean religion. I mean, like, you know, spirituality. Yeah. Well, there's like a... there's a feeling that people have where even if you don't go to church, then you sort of know that there's something more to this world. Have you always been... and you're definitely that guy now. Have you always been...

Defer (31:28):

Yeah. So I... I always had like this... I had family that were mixed race, and then I went to Catholic church here, and visited and stuff like that. And I had other family members that were, you know, Christian, that prayed for me and stuff. And then I had kind of a spiritual corner when I was 13, 14, you know, where they picked us up and where I was actually kind of involved in the neighborhood and stuff like that. And it was a violent time.

Justin McMillen (31:44):

So what do you mean, involved in the neighborhood?

Defer (31:44):

Well, you know, that's the one thing with graffiti — we kind of were out there on the streets, right? So we're definitely in harm's way. And then obviously historically, like you saw the violence that started escalating in the late 80s and stuff like that. And it just kind of like... I mean, if you were in a certain place, you sometimes didn't have a choice. You know what I mean?

(32:01):

Peer pressure. And I started becoming a product of my environment. No excuses or anything. But I fell into it. And you know, I did it voluntarily, out of whatever it was. Now I started to analyze a lot of it — it's probably insecurity and all that, you know what I mean? Like, sure. There's a lot of different variables.

Justin McMillen (32:18):

Right.

Defer (32:19):

I look at the psychological things of the way I think, you know. And a lot of it was propelled by certain things. And you don't want to say insecurity. But it's true though, right? You're a kid.

Justin McMillen (32:36):

Yeah, you're a kid.

Defer (32:36):

And, you know, I think you always feel that in some way, even in society. Right? You know, you lose a job, you lose this, you lose a girl... you know, you feel... there's an insecurity, right? Or whatever you call that. Right? I mean, I don't know how else to put it, but that's such a bad word for a man to say, or whatever. But I would just say like that lack of, like, foundation.

(32:56):

Right? Especially as a kid. It's very... you're everything's identity. You know, what people think about you. And even now they have all this cancel culture, what people think of you, you... you gotta watch what you say, all that. So there is that insecurity. Yeah. Whatever you call it.

Justin McMillen (33:14):

I think we're hardwired for tribal behavior. I think that's how we... I've talked about this before on the show with other people, with military folks. Yeah. But there's a part of us that knows that we need a tribe.

Defer (33:29):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (33:29):

Will die. Yeah, it's hardwired into our DNA. And so I think as a kid, you finding yourself in an environment, it's like, where's my people? Because you need that. Because you know that having people means you're going to survive. And so of course you get wrapped up in it. And that people is security.

Defer (33:59):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (33:59):

So you don't have your people, you're...

Defer (33:59):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (33:59):

Secure. Yeah. It's secure here. You know, if you're a lone wolf in an environment where this gang's fighting this gang, it's like, that's not a good place to be, because you're going to get caught in the crossfire, right?

Defer (34:15):

Yeah.

(34:15):

And yeah, you don't want to be in that situation. So yeah, I fell into... I'm going to call it tribalism. Okay. You know, I fell into tribalism, which is a natural inclination because a government, a country, everything's a... it's a tribe. There's just words, labels for it. Oh, that's the government. This is the military. It's a branch, right, from a tree. And everybody wants to be a part of that tree.

(34:42):

And then, you know, we want to... if you're... and I think at that point in life, it was a dog eat dog world, you know. It's either big dog, little dog. Little dog eats crap, you know what I mean? So yeah, I do, you know. And nowadays, I mean, it's like everything's ruled by force, right? I mean, if you want to be a strong business, it's ruled by this dynamic force that's going to propel this business or this entity to another level.

(35:06):

These people, they become great athletes or fighters or whatever they're doing. They have to spend hours in the gym and they have to almost be single minded, you know. Or like you deal with a lot of military people where they have to go on these special operations, and that doesn't stop when they come back to society. Right? You know, that damage is there. Yeah. The damage is still there. That extreme personality, or whatever ethos it took them, whatever they had to do to get through the day in those combat situations, you know, you just don't turn that off, you know?

Justin McMillen (35:50):

Yeah.

Defer (35:50):

No, it's a fire. Like people have it. And, you know, this is when we started... you were talking about why some people, when they use drugs, they use a lot versus others not. I think we all have in Hawaii, they say mana, right? Like the amount of energy we have. And my wife says it's like different people are born with different amounts of... yeah, yeah. Not everyone has like a raging amount of fire inside them, but some of us do.

Justin McMillen (36:10):

Yeah.

Defer (36:10):

And if you have that and you don't have a place to channel it, yeah, you know, it's like... whatever activates that... whatever it's like... feeds that hunger, right?

Justin McMillen (36:29):

Yeah.

Defer (36:29):

It can be anything. It can be violence. It can be power. It can be drugs, it can be creation.

Justin McMillen (36:49):

Yeah.

(36:49):

So that's... super fascinated with that. That's the main type of people I end up talking to on here. It's all people that have a tremendous amount of fire. Yeah. And it's, it's I think I look back, in retrospect, like, wow, all the things I went through, right? You know, like I've been shot nine times. You know what I mean? And, you know, being shot at... I mean, you know, been shot nine times.

(37:08):

Oh yeah.

Defer (37:08):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (37:08):

Yeah.

Defer (37:08):

For sure.

(37:08):

Yeah. One time I got shot in the head. Yeah. The first time. And how old were you?

Justin McMillen (37:30):

I was about 18.

Defer (37:30):

Yeah.

(37:30):

Then I got shot again another time — another eight times, all over the body. And I was on life support, flatlined four times, you know. And it was pretty crazy because, like, both times, you know, I had a pretty bad... I guess prognosis or whatever. Like...

Justin McMillen (37:54):

Yeah, you know, you're... you know, you're going to have these issues, like mental wise, and... you know, and I did feel it, yeah. Where I didn't have any coordination and I couldn't even talk, you know what I mean? Where I... we learned how to talk and kind of went through physical therapy and all that, you know?

Defer (38:11):

Holy shit.

(38:11):

Yeah. So, so the first time you're shot in the head. Yeah, yeah. Can you... can you tell... I don't know if you've ever talked about this, and we can cut it at any point if you don't want to, but... yeah. Do you remember that day?

Justin McMillen (38:35):

Yeah. I'm... I should talk about it. Just, you know, not for myself, but for others. You know, the telltale signs of just getting in trouble and going down the wrong path, you know.

Defer (38:52):

So what was it? Nighttime? Daytime?

Justin McMillen (38:52):

It was nighttime. It was nighttime. What were you doing? I was just hanging out with my friends, and you know, I'm just going to say that time where bullets are flying. You know, well documented in life, right? Things where things were happening all over the place. It was the wild wild west back then, you know what I mean?

(39:14):

I mean, you know, so you know what, what happened to me was happening all the time. So it wasn't like, wow, this happened. You know, people were dropping left and right back in those days, and I pretty much was just going to be another statistic, right?

Defer (39:30):

You know.

Justin McMillen (39:30):

I mean, because so many people died at that age. And, you know, on that note, it was crazy because, you know, that movie Boyz n the Hood was out, right?

Defer (39:54):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (39:54):

And it was such a good, powerful movie back then. Right. But I think they asked John Singleton — rest in peace — would you ever do a part two? And he was like, I can't do a part two, because that was just that moment of time, or it was just so violent, so bad. And it can't be replicated. And it couldn't happen again.

Defer (40:21):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (40:21):

You know what I mean? It was just that slice of history. So, you know, you're hanging out at night, with your... like, was this...

Defer (40:46):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (40:46):

It's my friends, my family. Your friends.

Defer (41:04):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (41:04):

It was a drive by, or was it intentional?

Defer (41:04):

Yeah. It was... everything's intentional. You know, it wasn't just like, you know, but it was... do you know the guys who did it? I'm not going to get into more details on that. Yeah, you know, to... you know what? They... you know, in a way, it doesn't matter who did it, because it was like... you know, they say a bullet has no name. Bullets are just flying. It's like being in warfare, right? You know who actually took a shot at you? You're never going to know. And I don't want to know either.

Justin McMillen (41:34):

You know what's interesting about this?

Defer (41:34):

You know, Bob Marley was shot, you know. But... yeah, yeah, yeah, he was shot. And he never... he was asked one time, do you know who shot you? And he said, yeah, I know, I know who it is.

Justin McMillen (41:56):

Yeah.

Defer (41:56):

They're like, why don't you do anything? And he was like... he's like, I let it go. He's like, I handled it. It's done.

Justin McMillen (42:19):

Yeah.

Defer (42:19):

You know.

(42:19):

He had his own way of seeing it. And, but being shot in the head and you survived. Yeah. How... how did you survive? I didn't... I'm not seeing... yeah, it wasn't in the front of your face — both right here, in the back of my head. But yeah, it's crazy. So a nine millimeter bullet went in and it... like a halo, it curved around my skull. Wow. And they don't know how that happened. You know, I believe it... made me on the inside. Yeah. They were just saying it took the trajectory the way it went in, like there... like, I don't know how it... like, just because it ripped the lining of my brain.

(42:54):

Like, there's a... there's a... there's like an encasing. It's like a, you know, and it ripped through it. And then the bullet stopped here and then... yeah. Was it just... you remember getting hit, and you remember being on the ground?

Justin McMillen (43:13):

Oh yeah.

Defer (43:13):

Yeah. It was almost like... how would you say it? It was almost like in slow motion. You're just standing up, and then you feel your body just fall like a sack of potatoes, you know? Just like you lose control. And then I have like a cut here — they thought the bullet went through my head. Like this was the exit wound. But it was like, this is a keloid because I fell on my face.

Justin McMillen (43:37):

Okay.

Defer (43:37):

And I... so there was no one else hit in that?

Justin McMillen (43:57):

No.

Defer (43:57):

Just me. Just hit him. And then luckily I was right across the street from General Hospital, so they put me in my own car at the time and took me to the hospital there. And you know, it's... there's, when you get shot, there's a certain... there is a certain hopelessness where you're just... there's... you're... there's nothing you could do for yourself at that point.

(44:13):

You know what I mean? When you get shot, there's not like, okay, I'm going to put my hand here to stop the bleeding or, you know, you're just completely on the edge of death. And then when I went into shock... yeah. So you just kind of... yeah, it's like you're... it's like, were you conscious?

Justin McMillen (44:50):

Yeah. There were parts where I was conscious and I was just like... and it's just like I couldn't talk, but I could see, you know, like, whoa. Like I'm just like, here. I don't know what's going to happen. And then you can hear people talking in the background and like, yeah. And then I had to have a few surgeries because one of the most dangerous things that happened was there was an infection in my... you know, from the bullet, because a lot of bullets are dirty. It's like a dirty piece of metal.

(45:14):

That's in a casing that they can't take out. So if that thing infected my brain, I was going to be in hot water, you know. So I nearly escaped death. You know, just getting shot in the head is... were you aware enough during the time when you were actually being rushed to the hospital to question in your head, am I going to live?

Defer (45:40):

Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely. Because it's like... it's so hard to explain, but it was almost like, how am I still here? You know what I mean? Like, because it was a strange feeling that I knew it was in the head. Because I knew that because I was puking blood and I felt some kind of pain, you know, obviously, in my head.

(45:59):

So I... there was some kind of weird analysis in my mind, obviously, and see where I got shot. But I knew it was like a... and then I could hear them saying, it's a head wound, it's a head wound, you know. And I was like, man, I knew it wasn't just like I was skinned or nothing. You know, there was a huge gash in my head.

(46:26):

So, yeah, it was very, it was very violent. And, you know, I was young too. Yeah. You know, so just kind of like that, you kind of see your life, you know, like, okay. Is it... you know... how did your family react? Were you close with them at the time?

Justin McMillen (46:44):

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a horrible time because my dad was dying of leukemia. He had a bone marrow transplant. The transplant didn't match up right either. So he... it was very painful watching him go through that. And I made life so much worse for everybody, in retrospect. You look back and it's just like, man.

(47:05):

Like, did you make life worse, or is it just the circumstances? I mean, it's... I would say the circumstances, but I would say just my personal choices. Like just, you know, wanting to be part of this tribe and excel at this certain thing is very, very detrimental, you know what I mean? You don't think... you know, like I look at it now, or I'm just like, man, like, what was I thinking?

(47:24):

You know, you look at it now and, you know, that's why I don't really talk about my family too much, of course. To touch on my brothers and all that stuff, family members. But like, I'll share some of the painful things so when people go through things, you know, they... you know, and I'm not going to talk about any specifics. But I mean, yeah, yeah, if anything, this is more generalized.

(48:02):

And I want to put it out there just so if anybody's going through like any addiction or anything like, like, you know, I've been there and done that. And it's just man, just rethink everything if you can before it's too late. You know, rethink everything. If you could sit there for a moment and... anything is better than doing what I've done.

(48:29):

You know what I mean? Like, get a job and be thankful, even if it sucks or whatever. You know, that's better. You know, for most things, you know. How long were you... how long were you in the hospital? How long did it take you to get... what were the effects of...

Defer (48:52):

Oh man, it was... it was bad. I mean, I was... you know, I don't know exactly how long. It was a few months. But it was like, you know, you have to... it's not like they just bandage you up and you go. You know, I remember how they were giving me Demerol and stuff like that.

(49:16):

And you know, because it was just... you go through pain and you go through, you know. Yeah. And even in the hospital, you know, if you're going to live or die, you know, you're laying there in the bed and it's like, yeah, you're just, you know, just like, wow, I'm alive. I can't believe it. And then you have visitors and, you know, it's... it's a very... who's in your corner the most at that time?

(49:40):

Obviously like... my mom was there a lot, and, you know, some of my family. Had friends that came from my neighborhood and stuff. And so I had a lot of support, obviously, you know, moral support in terms of visitors and stuff like that.

Justin McMillen (49:56):

So you going through something like that — what's interesting to me is that it doesn't seem like there was any vengeance sort of feelings in you. You seem to just see it as this is what happens in the neighborhood. Did you feel like... I mean, well, that's the thing. That's the bad thing about all that stuff — it's all based on vengeance and getting back. And it's a vicious cycle.

Defer (50:18):

So to speak, you know what I mean? And it's almost like... it is like a sense of warfare, you know, where you're going back and forth. And, you know, that's why I empathize sometimes. Like, man, like you go to war for certain things and it just ends up back to where it was, you know, like a vicious cycle.

(50:41):

It doesn't... there's like no progress, or... I mean, you see this in history too, right? If you look at... I mean, yet I think there are wars that are justified where they're taking down tyranny or something. And, you know, yeah, for sure. But vengeance is dangerous, right?

(51:05):

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. And the thing about that on, like, if you look at a global war, that's more on a macro level, right? This is micro warfare, where it's just like these little... tribalism, you know. And it's one of those paradoxes or one of those things where you think, like, even now, in this day and age, we can't be at peace, right?

(51:26):

You know, we can't... that's what I'm trying to say. That's one of those things where it's like, okay, I fell into that as a youth. But even now, you know, we're in a world where there's no peace, right? Even now, all this technology, all this whatever. And you know, there's... sometimes there's no common ground even, you know. You can watch the news right now and you're going to see things, you know. And I made a lot of personal bad decisions, you know. But in retrospect, I'm thinking about it and I'm looking at this little kid that I was.

(51:53):

And then I'm looking now, like, look at us as adults, like, you know, we're a country at war right now, right? And we've been at war. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to say. So I mean, we're... you know what I mean? So I kind of see it as like, yeah, as a 16 year old kid, 15, 13 year old, join a neighborhood or a tribe.

(52:14):

You know, there's so much insecurity, so much... no thought. No, you know, peer pressure and being bullied. You want backup. You want people to be on your side, your team, you know. And I think just the expression was just the wrong path, you know. And I feel bad for everybody that lost their life and the people that lost their minds behind drugs and the violence and the PTSD and all that, you know what I mean?

(52:37):

It's horrible, you know. The aftermath of a soldier coming back, not the same. You know what I mean? And all the people that died in all the wars throughout history. Because I did study history too. And, you know, that was one of my things — where I studied history. And, and I did.

Justin McMillen (52:59):

So after that happened, how did that shape you?

(53:14):

I just got deeper into it. Because it's almost like... it's like a paradox. Almost like you have this badge of honor, like you got shot and you survived. So you're kind of like... that's part of your identity. Yeah. It's kind of like, okay, this dude's not going to fold or whatever, you know what I mean? Like, you've been to this extreme brink of death, and then you come back and you do the same thing.

Defer (53:39):

Like, you know, people are like, death doesn't faze that guy. It's... yeah, it's kind of like that. But it's such a twisted, false sense of everything because... I mean, you know, think about how much damage that does to you psychologically, physically, and spiritually — getting shot. And, you know, to go back to the same thing. It's like a dog going back to its own vomit, you know. And then you get to a point where it's almost like you're in this meat grinder and you're just... acceptance of death.

(53:57):

Like that's what a lot of us just say: hasta la muerte, like till death. You know. And then you think about now, like, if you're a soldier, it's like you're supposed to fight to the death, right? You know what I mean? So that was kind of like that mentality. That was like, that was your crew and the people, you know, on the street.

(54:11):

Yeah. Just accepted it — I die. Yeah, yeah. You kind of have that acceptance of death. And it's very... life was fleeting at the time. Did you feel like there was a reason that you... I know that later you probably — and knowing you — I think later you realized that you didn't die for a reason.

Justin McMillen (54:29):

But at the time, were you just like, meh? Or was it like, yeah... you know, at the time it's just like, was there any sort of spiritual thing that sort of evolved in you, that like, you've been given another shot? Or did you just... you know what? That's the one thing I... you know, that's a constant where I think,

Defer (54:50):

You know, obviously I didn't survive because I was strong or anything like that, because when you get shot, there's no like... oh, I trained nine months for this fight. I went to a training camp. I got the best. You know what I mean? Like when you get shot, that's another level. There's no referees or nothing like that. And it's horrible.

(55:07):

Right? It's not a sport or anything. It's... it's so... it was a horrible experience. And then, you know, when you get shot or you fall into drugs or gangs, you're just affecting everybody that loves you around you. You know, you only realize that later. And then, you know, some of those wounds you just carry for your life, you know. That recklessness. And you know, it's like... I characterize it as being a wild horse, you know. And sometimes I need to tame myself because that's the one thing — I think the body doesn't forget the trauma and everything you go through. And just going

(55:25):

into psychosis and things like that. You don't know about these things until they happen. You know, or where you drink to blank out because you want to forget everything. So that's something I would always struggle with — addiction and just psychosis and, you know, just different issues that just...

(55:47):

Yeah, just, you know, it's very surreal. You know, you got... and then you got shot again. Yeah. Again. How many years later? I was... six, four years later. Yeah. Was it the same... and so, is it safe to say that those four years you were running in that same crew, same tribe?

Justin McMillen (56:14):

Oh yeah. So it's all part of this. It's all part of, you know, the US as in the vast majority. So we all grew up in our little worlds. Right. And that's your reality. Yeah. But the rest of the United States doesn't... most of the United States has no idea that these sort of wars are going on.

Defer (56:34):

I mean... that era, Los Angeles was like at the time the epicenter for all that. So let's... well doc. Yes. Well known that L.A. at that time... I mean, that's when NWA was around, all that stuff, all the music — everything. Tupac, Biggie. It was just all a mixed pot of all that stuff where it affected like... I think things that weren't supposed to be mainstream became mainstream. Like skateboarding. Right?

(56:56):

Skateboarding became a big thing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Even the surf crews were like small, you know what I mean? Hawaii. But they became these mainstream things. And rap wasn't like, you know, like an acknowledged musical form, you know what I mean? At that point it was just like, hey, these guys are just rhyming.

(57:16):

But it became a musical force, right? And so did graffiti, you know. Like, wow, these are just hoodlums writing on the wall. But they all became these phenomenons, you know.

(57:25):

And that started it so rough, right? And it's just like this super bass, just visceral, rough, wide open, wild kind of like a bloody mess. And then it... yeah, evolves into culture and art. That is fascinating. I mean, because hip hop came out of that. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. New York and L.A.. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. So... that four year stretch — what, you don't have to give me details, but what kind of... what are you up to in between?

Justin McMillen (57:57):

I hate to use the bookend of the two times you being shot and this middle piece. But what was going on those four years?

Defer (58:02):

Absolute chaos. Absolute immersion. Where I... and I really was so broken, I didn't care. I was living in the moment. There was no... oh yeah, I got a 20-year plan and I'm going to do it. It was 100% pure madness, you know. And in retrospect, it's just... you know, I look back like everything was just like, you know, I related to everything, you know what I mean?

(58:28):

And I just, you know, I was broken, man. You know, I can look back now as broken, if I may. I don't even think I like thinking about it. But I'll just share with, you know, the audience or whatever. You know, I was broken, man. You know, my decision making — and even a lot of my decision making to current time — is a reflection of just bad choices, you know what I mean?

(58:51):

It's just this paradox of just bad choices. And that's why, like, I feel for a lot of the soldiers that come back and they're never kind of the same. And they're haunted by this, maybe this spirit of alcoholism or drug abuse or reckless behavior. Because, you know, sometimes you're immersed in these things and it just affects you, you know what I mean?

(59:12):

And, you know, now it's just in retrospect, I look back and I was like, meaningless chaos, you know. And I just didn't feel like I was ever going to get out, you know. I was just going to, you know... like till death, you know. Till death.

Justin McMillen (59:27):

So there's a part of you... a young kid, you grow up in this environment. Japanese kid growing up in a very Latin, Hispanic neighborhood during a time that's super violent and misery contained in that area — that's extreme violence. Gangs... we'll call it tribes. Tribes, you know, people fighting with each other. You're in the middle of all of that. You get really wrapped up in it.

(59:44):

But at the same time, there's an explosion of culture in L.A. Yeah, yeah. And but it's just all in... there's no like, thought to it. It's not like, yeah, I'm going to become this artist. I'm going to be selling out in London in my next show and all the things that you do. No, no, not at all.

Defer (01:00:00):

It's just this... you're just living. And you're just living. Probably going to die this way. Yeah, yeah. I was in a dark place, man. And, you know, thankfully... thankfully, you know what? There were some, like, glimmers of hope. You know what I mean? Little here and there with art, you know. Sometimes I'd see... wow, there's like little, you know, glimmers of hope and things.

(01:00:19):

But I remember back then, it's... you know, in retrospect, I look back at how that stuff was glorified by the media, by... you know what I mean? Like by the music, by the climate. And, and, you know, and it always seemed like there... not that it was totally glorified, because I don't want to just say that.

(01:00:40):

You know, but the times were very turbulent, you know. And I kind of look at it as it is what it... you know, it's just the way it was at that time. And that mindset. And I'm glad that that time is over and it's not going to replicate itself, because I wouldn't want people of this age going through that.

(01:00:56):

I mean, like the way we lived back then — it was horrible. Because it'll forever shape you and it's just... it wasn't... it was a dark place, you know. And that's the thing where, like, darkness follows you as like a shadow too, you know? Or you have this trauma and you know, all this, like... that's right. You know?

(01:01:15):

And it's always like a relapse almost, you know, where you can always relapse into it. You know, where you can go into that psychosis, or you can go through... you know, life is hard sometimes. You go through a divorce. And I've been through things like that. I won't speak about personal things. But, you know, just losses and stuff. And it could propel you back into that darkness mentally, you know. Where you kind of go back and you... you know, I don't like to acknowledge things like PTSD, but you have this post-traumatic stress and you carry that stuff.

(01:01:40):

It doesn't... there's not a pill that could take it away. And the reckless behavior. And, you know, just... I look at a lot of things that did shape me and a lot of things that I fell into, you know. And not thinking about it in retrospect, I didn't really think I was strong enough to say, okay, I'm just going to stop, guys. You know, I call it quitting. I mean, it was nothing like that back then, you know. I don't think I could have at the time, you know. You were in it.

(01:01:59):

I mean, it's yeah, you know. Then... so did the second time — the second time you were shot — was that what took you off the train you were on? Or... no. No. So can you tell, how did that one go down?

Justin McMillen (01:02:33):

Oh man. I thought at that time... that time was like... I mean, I had got shot eight times all over the body and it was a close range thing right there. And it was like, you know, I definitely thought I was gone that time. I was just like, these are my last breaths.

(01:02:41):

You know, when you first told me this, yeah, just to be honest with you, yeah. I didn't believe you.

Defer (01:03:13):

Yeah. I mean, I've met a lot of warfighters. You saw the scars though, right?

Justin McMillen (01:03:33):

No. And then you pulled your shirt off. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just people say that and it's like, no, that's not me. Maybe. Yeah. No, I mean... that was the thing. That time I literally thought I was dead. Because I remember there was this huge fence. I mean, this fence had barbed wire too. Like, picture one of those gates where you kind of like... no, I don't... I mean, with the wheels on the... with the wheels, and really high. I'm going to say higher than that.

(01:04:02):

Like maybe about that high, plus... you know? And then plus like, you know... 14 feet? I mean, I'm sitting down but I would stand up... but I would have to climb that because, you know, I'm a graffiti writer — I don't walk like fences. So I was like, and then barbed wire on top because, you know, this is the 90s.

(01:04:23):

And there was a lot of like, you protect your parking lot. And I had... yeah. So it was close. And then I scaled that with all the gunshot wounds. I don't know how. And then when the paramedics got there, they didn't know where I was. I was behind a trash bin. I don't know how I scaled that.

(01:04:44):

It must have been pure adrenaline, you know. But they couldn't even get in there. They had to cut the lock, I guess. Whatever. And I'm... I mean, I'm leaking. I'm bleeding all over the place. My stomach is like I'm pregnant because of, you know, I got shot with rhino tips and with three different guns, you know?

Defer (01:05:02):

So how did that... you were by yourself, or were you with people?

Justin McMillen (01:05:15):

Yeah, I was actually with one of my friends, you know. You know, they're trying to, like, maybe get him. But I put myself in that position. You know, my friend's little brother was there. And then I got caught up, you know. And it was broad daylight, so it was pretty wild.

Defer (01:05:29):

And he jumped in between?

Justin McMillen (01:05:48):

Yeah. To help somebody. Yeah. Yeah, because I saw him. He was kind of like that, and I just ran over there. And you know, I was... I don't know, guy. I remember being kind of fearless at that point in my life. I don't know, but, you know, reckless abandon, whatever you call it, you know.

(01:06:11):

And I went over there and then I took... you know, I took whatever I had, you know. And then yeah, that time I was like, this is it right here. You know, you shouldn't have lived. You know that, right?

Defer (01:06:31):

You know, I know. Yeah. I shouldn't have lived. Yeah. That was... every statistic says... yeah. I made it through that.

(01:06:49):

And that was the thing — what the doctor told me was like a miracle. Because there's this vein called the vena cava. And they said, like, if there's like a quarter cutting it, it's like a water hose. I had like... I think he said like 27 punctures, because the rhino tips are like those explosive tips. With a shotgun, just... for people...

(01:07:10):

It's a handgun, but the rhino tips are like ones where it has like shotgun pellets in it. And then, yeah. So it's, you know, it was just like miraculous that I lived. And yeah, the guy that saved me, his name is Dr. Essentiel. So if you're out there, you know, here — we actually wanted me to come on in a PBS documentary to talk about it. But I was... I mean, that was the least I could have done, right, for him.

(01:07:26):

The guy that saved me. But I was so deep into my madness that I'm... so I didn't want to do an interview type thing, you know. But, you know, now it's just like, you know... that's just how bad I was back then, you know.

Justin McMillen (01:07:49):

Was there anyone else in your crew during that time who had been shot multiple times and was still running around?

Defer (01:08:09):

Yes. Yeah, there were friends that got shot, paralyzed, killed. I mean, all of it, all of the above. But you're like, a fully functional human being walking around. Has any of this affected you outside of just trauma? I mean, do you have any health issues because of...

Justin McMillen (01:08:26):

You know what, man? I'm going to just say thank you to the Most High, because I know it's supernatural — the way I could function. And... yeah.

Defer (01:08:47):

Yeah. I'm glad I'm wearing the shades. Someone can compose myself, man. And that's who I was. In a dark place too, man. Yeah. You know, but.

Justin McMillen (01:09:08):

I'm glad you made it. Yeah. It's been... yeah. It's almost... you can't explain it, right? It's inexplicable. Right? You know, it's inexplicable. And I really have to thank the Most High, you know. Yeah, it's... wow. Yeah. I just think about everything I survived, and, you know. Yeah.

Defer (01:09:27):

Oh. Yeah. I mean, I'm working out everything, you know, doing my thing. Yes. So, yeah. Your grave physical condition — can't tell how old you are and you won't tell us. And I'm not... I mean, for all I know, you're 35.

(01:09:54):

I might be. You know... ageless. Yeah. Ageless. And, you know, that's the one thing — I'm not really going to talk about specifics on anything, because I think everything should be like, you know, we still got that cold, you know what I mean? Well, you know, and I keep things generalized. But the reason why I'm sharing with you is because, you know, you guys were there at a pivotal point where I, you know, was in a dark place. And I know that there's a lot of people out there that are going to struggle with thoughts of suicide, thoughts of drugs, and, you know, to put themselves out... it happens all the time.

(01:10:27):

Right. And there's things out there like divorce, breakups, heartbreak. You know, there's a lot of things that will push a man — or anybody, man or woman — over the edge, you know. And we go into these... you know, coming out of the pandemic, you know, there were times during the pandemic I thought I was going to die. But I'm dead serious.

(01:10:44):

We're all kind of like, okay, I feel that coffin, you know. Maybe this is it. I mean, and you know, there were times where I thought, okay, the economy's shut down, like what's going to happen after this? It was crazy, right?

(01:10:58):

Right. No. But you thought those things, right? Those things were like, man, I didn't know if we're all going to die. I mean, for all it was, this was like the virus that was just gone. Yeah, I mean, that's... I mean, you know, I think it was the isolation too, right? You're sitting there and you can't leave nothing. But you're right. Then you got this TV thing. And then I remember the news where... they'd always have these, like they'd have this certain age.

(01:11:32):

And I was in that age where you're in danger, right? This age, at this age, you're like that level four. And then there's level five or seven, whatever. But then I was like that level four age, whatever. And I was just like, man. But then they'd always have these... oh, 19-year-old twins died of Covid, they got Covid and they both died on the same day.

(01:11:49):

And, you know, this person was 24 years old or this person was 16. I mean, they had these ages too where I think it kept you kind of like... they highlighted it. Almost caused terror in your mind, right? You know, that's why I bring up these ages, because they were the ones that were publicized. You know, I think if they did it on purpose.

(01:12:07):

Yeah. Because, you know, they're not really... oh yeah, 97-year-old Jack died of Covid. You know, they were always focused on these younger ages. So like, oh, if that person, completely healthy, no underlying health issues... I was just like, okay, well, I'm here, they're there. I'm like... yeah. After getting shot nine times, I think Covid's going to take you out, brother.

(01:12:44):

But maybe. I know. But I'm just saying that, you know, even economically. Right. You're thinking about this stuff. Like okay, what's going to happen after this? Like, we can't work. And everybody saw businesses drop left and right. They did. Yeah. Oh yeah. All this back rent because you can't work. But okay, at the end, you know, we'll give you a $1,500 check. Like, this is... but it was a crazy, crazy time looking back on it too.

(01:13:01):

Yeah. Just like... you keep... we keep getting more information about that time period and what was actually going on. And it's so ugly. Yeah. And we're all so distracted, nobody's paying attention. Yeah, exactly. What's being said, you know.

Justin McMillen (01:13:19):

So, after... so you're like in your mid 20s now. Yeah. And what's your art like at this point? At that point, it was kind of like... at that era when I was into what I was into, I was more like, you know, I realized that after a certain age, a lot of people just fell into drugs. I've seen that. And you've seen that with rock and roll, correct?

(01:13:43):

Sure. You've seen it in the music industry and all that. Where, you know, Kurt Cobain, Tupac... I mean, you saw this, like, grim... even with the creatives, right? You know, especially with the creatives. Yeah. You see a lot of actors commit suicide or they died or they fell into this darkness.

(01:14:03):

Not all of them. But you saw a big influence. Lots of people that, you know, like, I guess like Amy Winehouse, or I'm just throwing names out there. Where these kind of... like this grim kind of thing.

Defer (01:14:19):

That's where my art started coming out of that. Like... like Tupac said, like this rose coming out of the concrete, you know. I, you know, I... I didn't feel, you know... I fell into drugs pretty hard. You know, just, just, just... I kind of hit.

(01:14:42):

Rock bottom. You know, I fell into a pretty heavy drug use, and I was very... oh, everything that comes with it — the paranoia, all this... basically schizophrenia, you know, all the madness. Right? So I fell into that. But it was more like self-harm, you know. You're just... this is a live fast, die young. Yeah. I'm going to be dead at the end of my 20s. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

(01:15:16):

And I guess I'm, you know, I'm just drawing these parallels, you know. I'm not saying like this is what happened with this person, but it was kind of that, that kind of gloom. You know, and you're doing street art at the time.

(01:15:25):

And, I mean, were you out tagging a little bit? Because when I saw, when I said draw it... I was like, dude, you're bad. You know, like I'm on a sick one now. But I mean, you know, I would draw and stuff. And then you know, there was a little spark of like, man, I'm gonna... I kind of want to do something. So I started, took little steps, man. I started going to Santa Monica College, and you know, and I... that little spark, I think I channeled things. I got sober because I was, you know, just... I had that doomed mentality, you know. And I've always struggled with that, man. I still... I can't get, you know, like you've seen me, you know, where it's like, I...

(01:16:02):

I have that shadow sometimes where I just gotta, like... yeah. And it's just... and I know a lot of people have that, you know. I mean, even at an older age, and you know, we're always going to... I think we're always going to struggle with that. Especially when you have PTSD or, you know, I don't want it diagnosed or anything like that or whatever, bipolar or whatever, whatever you're gonna call it, whatever. I'm just putting this out generally, to... you know what, whatever we struggle with, it's always like... that's why I acknowledge these meetings, like going to meetings or whatever you could do. To get educated, even if they're incremental steps. Life is so fragile, man. You can go through a breakup or whatever. You can go through anything and it's just like it could...

(01:16:34):

It could tailspin you. Yeah. You know, and I think people like you are important, because you have these protocols and you see everything — you interview people that are broken. And that's why I woke up this morning. I was like, man, this is a calling. I'm not going to, you know... nice. I'm... I'm alright, let's run it.

(01:16:59):

So thanks for the last-minute warning. I was like, this smoke. I was like, oh, all right. Well, you said, let's not overthink it. Just do a last-minute. And I thought this worked out perfect. I was at the gym when I texted you. Yeah. I'm going to get this workout in and I'm going to go meet him. We'll just see how it goes.

(01:17:20):

Yeah. And then that's... that's what I mean. So I think it's like... I thought, man, I don't talk about this. But you know, I think if we could help somebody, it could help somebody, man. If somebody's struggling out there, man, I've been through all this madness, man. And that's a... that's the thing. I just want to warn everybody — we could all spin out at any certain time. You see, you can watch the news right now, I can get into a depression. Depression is real. You know, these thoughts of gloom and doom, right? We're at war right now, right?

(01:17:54):

Correct. You know what I mean? There... we're right into a war. You know, so there's going to be things you're going to see on the news. You're going to see casualties, you're going to see a lot of things going on. And, you know, I'm going to speak for myself — I really need to protect my psyche, because I'm fragile. You know, I'm fragile. I'm Mike, you know. And in the sense of... I think I'm solid in terms of, in certain aspects. But, you know, there is that switch that we all have. That good, you know. And I guess I'm here to say that... it's a fight. But try to do anything you can to combat it.

(01:18:30):

Yeah. You know, complicated... you complicated. Exactly. Yeah. I think that's... I think you're complicated. And I think a guy like you — a guy like me — we require hypervigilance.

(01:18:57):

Exactly. Yeah. We gotta stay on guard. Yeah. It's like, you know, you could say I'm fragile. That's... there's some truth to that. I think... I like... I think in pictures, man. So, like, when I think of how my mind works, I picture you just like intricate little...

(01:19:19):

It's weird. It's like these little connected, almost like crystals. Yeah. Connected together. And it's very fragile. It can break really easy. But yeah, it allows me to think and do things. Yeah. I have to guard it because it can be smashed so easily. Right.

(01:19:38):

Exactly. But yeah, there's... a strange... but that's how I literally see it in my head. I just keep building on that and I have to care for it. And it is fragile, but it's beautiful also. Yeah. There's... I want it. I wouldn't want to be any other way.

(01:20:03):

Yeah. It took me my whole life to realize that, though. Yeah. And that's the thing. What it is, is like, you know, it's crazy. I never saw the full Matrix movie from beginning to end. I've seen little bits and pieces of it. I always talk about that in The Matrix because, you know, the matrix is like this set of numerals that go up and down, like in sequence. Right? And then that society, right, is sequence. You know, you get up... even if you're flying into L.A. or Orange County or whatever, L.A.X., you see the grid, right?

(01:20:41):

It's a grid. Yeah. It's a trip. It's like you fly in over it for like ten minutes. Yeah. But if you look at it, it's just so perfect. Right? If you're on the ground level, you don't see it, you see whatever. But from an aerial view, you see how it's all like... it's perfectly geographically like immaculate. Right. The city of lights. Right. You fly in and then... that's what the matrix is. To keep society going. You got to, you know, you have to have law enforcement. You have to have this. You have to have schools. You have to have this, that. And then, you know, but a lot of us are outliers, right?

(01:21:15):

We're outside of the matrix in terms of like, yeah, there's that structure. But we also, in order to create, we have to go outside of the matrix. And that's the wilderness. But it's a gift and a curse because, you know, going outside of the matrix — there's addiction, there's extreme behavior, and there's just dumb stuff you can get into. And the same things that will make you laugh can make you cry. Right? You know what I mean? So it is that paradox. You know what I mean? Or whatever you call it, contradictions. So I live a very contradictory life. And that's... and I think that at this point, I'm going to look back at every experience that I went through.

(01:21:40):

I could relate to everybody and everything. Yeah. You know what I mean? Where I could just be like, oh, you're doing drugs. Like, man, that's what I did. You on here? Because I feel like, yeah, you could connect to warfighters, you could connect to people with mental health issues, genetics, youth, everything. You're extremely rare.

Justin McMillen (01:22:02):

We haven't really got into your art career. Yeah. You know, I'll say it now, because I'm somebody who's listening, trying to understand, like, you are a world-renowned artist. Your work is everywhere. You're in Japan, you're in Europe, you're all over the place. So you've taken all of this pain and struggle and life experience and you've turned it into expression. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're channeling... you know, people say that you're channeling your aura from some other place.

(01:22:26):

Yeah, yeah. And if you see it, and if you... I've seen you do it. And it truly... it's extraordinary. It's not just the end result of the work. Yeah. Watching you actually create it. I feel like I'm watching something that's happening 10,000 years ago.

Defer (01:22:47):

Yeah, yeah. Does that make sense to you? Yeah. So it is strange because I think that's why I'm big on being timeless, because there's some times where I'm in a flow state and I can... I could knock out a wall, you know, real quick. And there's some times where I overthink things, I just sit on something. But everything happens for a time and a reason. And like, I just... like, for instance, in Europe, like, you know, I had to triple create because we had a couple weak links and whatever. So I was like, all right, cool. I'm going to just do more.

(01:23:13):

And you actually... can you explain? So... I mean, I don't know. Yeah. No, no, I put a show together, but my solid friends came through. You know, my boy Stilson... Oriel, you know, asked my... my boy right there and Chazz, you know. But we had a couple people that didn't, you know, whatever.

(01:23:38):

But so I was like, all right, cool. I'm going to double produce because, you know, I'm blessed to be, you know, linked up with a good gallery called Barry House. They're really good people. And this is... where is it? In the UK. UK, now. The UK. So we, you know, we're building something out there. And good people. And they're with me through thick and thin, you know, in terms of, you know, and I think they kind of know that artists kind of got some mental issues, maybe, or whatever. They're helping.

(01:24:03):

But you can't tame the wild horse. Yeah. You're like, at least kind of making sure it doesn't come like... yeah, exactly. So it's kind of like, yeah, you have these episodes or whatever. But, you know, and then, you know, I've been very fortunate, man. Like, I got Pat, you know. Pat looks out for me, you know.

(01:24:28):

Pat. Pat. No. Yeah. Pat, Pat always looked out, and I think he's always known that balance of opposites. And you know what I mean? It's the paradox kind of you are that. Yeah. So I think that's one thing, man. And he's always helped me out. And clutch came through, you know. And when I'm in darkness, he's been there for me, man.

(01:24:48):

And so that's why I acknowledge him. And that's the reason why I'm here with you today, you know. He's like a wizard or something. Like, I, you know. So yeah, you know. Much love to him, man. And yeah. And I think you... I think the work you're doing, man, is incredible, because it's like you're capturing, I guess, these dark moments. And you're finding these spots and actually diagnosing things where it's like I'm implementing a lot of the things you do, you know. Like the physicality of it, the training — and keeping my mind stable and stuff like that.

(01:25:18):

And I think you wonder... you know, I can't get that out of my head of being a wild horse. And I kind of diagnose myself like that. And that wild horse, where, you know, I have to be careful. And you know, and I know that... but that's why I want to give back now, you know. Usually do podcasts... this is the first one I'm doing, and you know.

(01:25:37):

Yeah. I'm honored to have you guys. I want to do this. And it's not... I'm not here to like, you know, I want to share these experiences. So, you know, they're just telltale signs that, you know, I wish people could like, you know, maybe someone's in a dark place, man. Just take that step, man. Initially and...

(01:25:55):

Yeah, addiction is bad. You're... we're always going to be affected by it. You know, that's why I like... maybe I might not acknowledge it like, you know, you go to a meeting, I'm an alcoholic. I don't want to do that or say that because that's just my personal preference. But I understand, man. If you need to go to an AA meeting, a meeting, go to therapy, physical therapy, go work out, talk to... do whatever you could do to get out of that addiction.

(01:26:13):

Mind. You know, just take that first step, man, and I'm there with you. I'm just... and I'm going to say it right now — I'm fragile. You know, I'm fragile. You know, when it comes to that, you know, I am. And I know that I'm walking a paradox or a contradiction, you know what I mean?

(01:26:34):

That's one thing I can't give you any advice like, oh, do this or do that. I mean, maybe the advice in terms of take that step.

Justin McMillen (01:26:54):

Yeah.

Defer (01:26:54):

Or get help, you know. And anything's better than what we're doing sometimes, you know.

Justin McMillen (01:27:11):

You know, I think what you're saying is wise. And I think a lot of people need to hear it. And hearing it come from you is important. I think I also think that there's, because of who you are and the body of work that you have, there's a lot of artists that can learn from you as well. And your approach to creation and how you sell your work and the way you see it. I mean, I asked you like, oh yeah, I sold everything or whatever.

Defer (01:27:29):

You make a ton of money. You don't care. It's interesting. That's not how people normally work. Yeah. It's what's the formula like? Have you... did you think this through or are you just on some kind of crazy ride?

Justin McMillen (01:27:50):

It's just a crazy ride. Because, you know, I could also be very self-destructive too. And very doom and gloom. And, you know, and then, you know, I come from that 80s hopeless romantic. You know, he's like... you know, and I feel like out of place in the world, you know what I mean?

(01:28:11):

And I'd also like to acknowledge my ex-wife.

Defer (01:28:28):

Yeah. She... she helped me a lot, you know? Yeah. But yeah. Sometimes you need that stable presence, right? Yeah. In life. And she was definitely there, for sure. And, you know, sometimes you don't fight for things you should fight for, right?

Justin McMillen (01:28:50):

But yeah, for sure. You know. And...

Defer (01:29:07):

But yeah, a lot of those things... I don't want to get too deep into that. But she taught you a lot, though.

Justin McMillen (01:29:27):

Yeah. For sure. Oh, definitely saved me a lot, you know. And I was right about so many things. And, you know... it is a paradox, because sometimes, you know, you... you know, whenever you're with somebody for a long time and you just take it for granted, maybe. You know. And I think our relationships... you're going to have, like, what do you call it?

(01:29:47):

Arguments and the natural. Right. You know what I mean? You know, even with business partners, friends and, you know, it happens. You know, but yeah, there's... yeah, that was another era. Yeah. She... I don't know fully, but what you told me, it sounds like you got this very street life. Yeah. And then... and then she comes into your life. Yeah. And you find that... you said domestication. For...

Defer (01:30:13):

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But that's not bad. Yeah. No, it's not. It's not. Maybe she started to give you sort of the imprint that you needed to be able to navigate through the matrix, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And so, but like, were you... were you happy during that period?

Justin McMillen (01:30:38):

Yeah, yeah. There were times of like immense happiness. But, you know, there were also economic struggles too, that I went through. And like, and, you know, following an art career is like... is very unpredictable. It's wild. And it's kind of crazy because you can almost profit off of some of the wildness too. You know, where your mind goes into this crazy mode where you create. And then there's a whole... when I realized the social aspect of it, you know, or you party with people and you're partying.

(01:30:55):

And so I definitely went off the deep end, for sure. It's my own, you know, experience. And it's yeah, it's one of those things that's... it's totally unscripted. You know, there's no formula. You know, it's something that, you know, it's one of those things — I don't know where I would be if, you know. Yeah. So it's like a gift and a curse I guess.

(01:31:17):

At this point, you're so... you're out there now. Your tribe, you're running around with all kinds of musicians and different kinds of folks. And every one of them is different, right? They're unusual. Yeah. They lead unusual lives. I have the... I mean, for the longest, though, I've known people that were, you know, some popular, some very famous people, you know. And I ran around with people and definitely people that are influential, even good or bad.

(01:31:47):

But you know what I mean? Sure. But definitely outliers have kind of been around that in retrospect for a long time, you know. And yeah, it is crazy because there is that gift and curse, you know, where there's this extreme talent, but there's like a... almost like a tax you gotta pay for the talent. You know what I mean? Does that make sense? I don't know, it's like... it's almost like, okay, you're blessed with this, but you gotta pay this little darkness here. You know, you're not just going to... everything's going to be peaches and cream.

(01:32:03):

And then I noticed a lot about... and I hate to say this, but some good art, influential art... it's... and anything great, you have to have these — not you... I should not say that you have to. But you hit these, like, moments of insanity. You know, where you're just like, you know. And if you think of any extremity, right? These people that run these 24-hour marathons, the dedication they got to put into that. You know, like war or, you know, Navy SEAL, you know what I mean?

Defer (01:32:26):

You know, where they have to immerse themselves in this combat training and go to war. But, you know, there's that level of insanity, you know, to create something great — or extreme extremity or whatever, right? You know, extreme behavior. So that's why it's difficult, you know what I mean? And there has to be that balance, you know, of... you know. But then I think people that are extreme, society or mankind could be captivated by that extremeness. Right. Like, they make them into icons or whatever. Like even maybe Kobe Bryant, right? He was extreme. You know, everybody's coming in from the party and he's, you know, shooting jump shots over and over all night, while others are walking out of the gym — they're coming in from partying all night. You know what I mean? And he's, you know, and look at all these people that have made these extreme careers and capitalized off of this extreme behavior. You know, or even Michael Jordan — you know, he's a billionaire but he'll play craps and he doesn't want to lose, you know, whatever, you know.

Justin McMillen (01:32:51):

So it's just, yeah, you have all these figures that are extreme. And, you know, so yeah, I think this what you're talking about is something that I'm incredibly obsessed with. And everybody that I work with is like... you know, I work with addiction, mental health. Right. But yeah, the real thing is what is it? What kind of traits do we have as humans that can become addiction or can become mental health issues?

Defer (01:33:15):

They don't always, and they don't have to be, right. So the traits will always be there.

(01:33:30):

This extremism, this hypersensitivity, this obsessive... yeah, sure. Right. Exactly. You have all of these things — all the people you're describing have all of those things. Yeah. But how we translate those traits into our behaviors is really the difference between success or failure. Right? Destruction or creation.

Justin McMillen (01:33:48):

Yeah. Like that is like... that is my obsession. When I see guys like you're just talking about — he's got those same things, but he channels them into creation. Yeah. And you, the vast majority of your time now, you're creating so much art. And I mean, it's incredible. It's... yeah. And that you've learned to channel it but you still know.

(01:34:02):

But there's a thing I wanted to bring up too. I just thought about that when you brought up, like, where you... like that build-destroy. You know, I mean. And I found myself at certain points where I'm also self-sabotaging myself — to hit rock bottom and to claw my way up, to reignite hunger or something.

Defer (01:34:21):

You know, I saw a pattern of that too. Where you almost want to destroy yourself. And it could either kill you or it could reignite you. You know what that was? That thing — the phoenix. It keeps reemerging.

(01:34:40):

Yeah, yeah. So sometimes I feel like I can go off the deep end. And it could be a form of self-sabotage. To where you're kind of like, okay, bam, I destroy myself. But I'm going to rise again.

Justin McMillen (01:34:59):

And then it's that... it's a paradox. It's a contradiction, man. It's inexplicable. Right? Yeah. It's amazing. I want to... I want to hear about... I want to hear about when you're painting.

Defer (01:35:21):

Yeah. Where... where is this stuff coming from in you. And I want to know whether... I have this theory that's probably not correct. But you having so many brushes with death, yeah... like it feels like you're channeling from somewhere else. Like you've opened a portal. And it's like you're writing a language that... yeah.

(01:35:38):

I mean, just looking at your shirt. It's so weird how captivating it is. Like, it's like the kind of thing... and you look at it, you can't stop looking at it. Yeah. We're like, how are you doing this? Do you even know?

Justin McMillen (01:35:58):

Yeah. You know what I'm going to say? A lot of it is unknown, because sometimes when I get into this flow state, it's almost like automatic writing, you know? And I remember one time... and this is several years, a long time ago. Maybe 20 years ago, I don't know. Yeah, maybe 19, 18, 15 years, something.

(01:36:16):

But I remember I was up late at night, and I was... I was actually going to college at the time too. I reeducated myself. I was going to college. And in college I had to write about, you know, you had to write about your art and stuff like that. And I didn't really know how to articulate it because it was coming from a different source.

(01:36:35):

Right. So I was up late at night and I couldn't really think — I had like a writer's block. Right. And then I was thinking about it. And then I, you know, like at night, you know, I was... I started watching TV. And they had this random show on. One show was about a true story, I guess it was about this raft or whatever, or this little boat that got stranded out at sea. And they were lost at sea. And like, they actually had to dump people off the boat, you know what I mean?

(01:36:54):

And there were men and women on the boat too. And one of the women, she was close to death because they weren't, you know, they couldn't have water, food, whatever. So she was close to death. And she was dying. But they said before she died, she started speaking in tongues, like she was speaking like she was... she would go out like kind of in the corner of the boat and start speaking in tongues.

(01:37:20):

And they're like, yeah, we knew she was going to die soon, like she was already in the spiritual realm. So yeah, she died and they had to... you know, they took her body and put it over the boat. And anyways, so it was kind of weird because they were talking about death and stuff like that, you know. And I think they finally got rescued.

(01:37:37):

But it was like a true reenactment. You know, they had that reenactment or whatever. And then that was the show, just a random quick show. And the next show that came on... I don't know what it was called, but it was about alien abduction. Because supposed to be a true story. And they had the reenactment or whatever. And they had this family. Right. And they were just a regular family, like in suburban America, and it's a reenactment. And I'm watching it. And then anyways, the little girl...

(01:38:00):

They had a family, she came up missing, so they thought she got kidnapped or something. But there was no forced entry or nothing. She just disappeared. And so, you know, they called the cops and they start canvasing the area and everything, and couldn't find her, you know what I mean. And I forgot how many days later, but four days later or whatever, she reappears in her room like nothing happened. And they were like, wait, who took her? Or what happened?

(01:38:20):

You know? So they, you know, they check her and there's no signs of any, you know, injuries or anything. But she was different. And she started talking about them. I guess it was like she was abducted, you know? And then they taught her. And then she was doing all these drawings. It was like automatic writing. Or channeling from, you know.

(01:38:37):

And then that's where I was like, kind of like, that's kind of what I do. I called it spiritual language. That's where that term came from, because I started thinking about it. It was like... it was almost like I took these tidbits of that, and I wrote it the next day and I was like, yeah, this is spiritual language. I'm channeling it from an unknown source. What does it feel like when you're doing it?

Defer (01:39:00):

I can tell because it's almost like that — because one thing they did illustrate on there was she was doing like automatic writing. That's what they called it. Like she was doing this automatic writing. And I was like, there's times where my hand's moving and there's no lines or nothing, and I'm just going.

(01:39:21):

And then so I... you got the letterform, but I'm obliterating the letterform. And it's a spiritual act and it's a visual spiritual act. Yeah. So do you have any pieces that you're the most proud of, or that stand out? Like, what are the pieces that represent different times in your... there are, there are. But you know what's crazy is, like, in retrospect, a lot of it's an out-of-body experience. I don't even remember doing it. I'm dead serious.

(01:39:43):

Where I'm kind of like, back there, like, oh, I did that. And obviously... yeah, there's pieces I've done recently, okay, I remember doing it. And there's murals obviously that were taxing that I remember doing. But a lot of it is like an out-of-body experience where I'm kind of just like... oh man, it's just like, I don't even remember, like, you know, I just say. And then I think also with my career, I try to keep it moving. I try to keep it like flowing where I'm not resting on my laurels, like, oh yeah, I did this, or I completed this show. I did all these pieces. I did this big mural. I kind of just brush it to the side and what's next, and just get on with the next one. Yeah. And get on it.

(01:40:09):

And it's, you know... yeah. That's good man. That's good stuff. So, we should probably wrap. All right. Yeah. This has been amazing, though. Yeah. I'm in a better state than I was last time. What? Yeah. Yeah, we keep referring to that, you know. This is just the idea that we tried to record before. You'd been up for a couple days? Yeah, yeah. And I'm really glad that you came back. I hope to have you on here again. Yeah. We'll do this, man. It's a greater cause, man. What you guys are doing is... there's there's a purpose behind it, which is great. And I think you guys are actually onto something very powerful — in terms that there's no limitations. You guys are open to, like, you can... whether it's drug abuse, it's from the multi billionaires to management to special... for I mean, everything bro. Like it's very versatile and it's purposeful. And what you guys are doing is amazing, man. And I think the world needs what you guys are doing. You know, to tame us wild horses. Okay. Well. Thank you. All right. Thank you, man. You.