Transcript

Intro (00:00:00):

I am the experiment. You can write your own story. Not stop trying and don't give into the fear.

Justin McMillen (00:00:09):

Oh, this is... This is a long time coming.

Brandon Fender (00:00:09):

Yeah. Happy to be here. Have to be back in Orange County.

Justin McMillen (00:00:09):

Yeah. I'm glad you're here.

Brandon Fender (00:00:09):

Yeah, it's... You know, I've got to have a lot of amazing people sitting across from me at this desk, and having you here... I don't want to — I don't want to get your head all big, but.

Justin McMillen (00:00:36):

You're definitely one of the special ones to have in here. So yeah, I've been wanting to put you on here for a while, and, you know, I think we should start by letting people know a little bit about who you are. And so I'm — I mean, just to throw some things out there and I'll let you run with it — but you, you know, you're a Marine, you're a father. You got an amazing partner from North Carolina. You run a treatment facility up in Nashville, Tennessee.

Brandon Fender (00:01:03):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:01:03):

You're a veteran. You got — what I — that's obvious. Suite one.

Brandon Fender (00:01:03):

Suite one.

Justin McMillen (00:01:03):

Yeah. But, what do you think would be important for people to know about who you are before we go on?

Brandon Fender (00:01:03):

I think the main thing that stood out in what you were saying is — a father. You know, I always wanted to be a father my whole life. And being a girl dad to two little girls, it's kind of like I fall in love again in a different way. And it was God's way of softening me up, which I needed. But it's been amazing. You know, I wanted to be a father my whole life. So it's been a blessing to have two little girls, an amazing partner who has been with me through thick and thin when I didn't have a dollar to my name, and has grown with me. A Marine, you know, combat veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan. Obviously, a lot of that shaped me into who I am today. But that's not all that I own. You know, a lot of that is to help me lay the framework and the groundwork for a lot of my values and morals, my work ethic. I think the thing that stands out the most is being a father.

Justin McMillen (00:02:14):

Nice.

Brandon Fender (00:02:14):

Obviously, being from the woods in North Carolina. Good old boy from the south.

Justin McMillen (00:02:14):

You got two daughters?

Brandon Fender (00:02:14):

Two daughters.

Justin McMillen (00:02:35):

How old are they?

Brandon Fender (00:02:35):

Four year old Bristol and, 12 week old Scout Freedom.

Justin McMillen (00:02:35):

Scout Freedom.

Brandon Fender (00:02:35):

You're in the early — the baby stage right now.

Justin McMillen (00:02:35):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (00:02:35):

I'm in the thick of it.

Justin McMillen (00:02:35):

Yeah. Yeah. How's it going?

Brandon Fender (00:02:35):

It's going. She is — the kid is completely different than my first daughter. So she cannot be set down. She's got to be held. And you cannot sit down. So it's a lot of me pacing around the house, doing laps and singing John Deere Green. Because that's one of the only songs I know. So I sang it to my first daughter, and now she sings it to her sister.

Justin McMillen (00:03:02):

Nice.

Brandon Fender (00:03:02):

So think of me walking around the house in a cutoff shirt, singing John Deere Green to a kid.

Justin McMillen (00:03:25):

When you say cutoff shirt, we're talking like a belly — not a crop top?

Brandon Fender (00:03:25):

Not a crop top. More of like a lawn mower cutoff.

Justin McMillen (00:03:25):

Okay. All right. Yeah. And where — where's your house? Where do you live?

Brandon Fender (00:03:25):

So I live in Nashville, Tennessee right now. Like I said, I'm from Asheville, North Carolina. Was born and raised there. My mother and father from western North Carolina. So I grew up to about the age of five there, then moved to the middle of North Carolina — Statesville, about 30 minutes from Charlotte. Grew up with an amazing mother. My father struggled with substance abuse. He was an alcoholic. So in and out of my life, basically my entire life. I lost him a few years ago to substance abuse. But, you know, my stepdad stepped in in the early stages of my life and really, you know, took my mom and my sister in. And, you know, I'll always be grateful for that. And one thing that he definitely gave me was a good work ethic. You know, he had family Christmas tree farms and, you know, so Saturdays was get up and let's go to work. You know, he was not the kind of guy that taught me to shoot a gun or fish, but he did develop a good work ethic in me. So yeah, that sense of duty.

Justin McMillen (00:04:39):

Right. And to show up for your family — I think that's huge.

Brandon Fender (00:04:39):

Yeah. And that side of the state — that's really just woods and mountains, right.

Justin McMillen (00:04:58):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (00:04:58):

Western North Carolina — I mean, that's where — really North Carolina in general is where a lot of the Christmas trees come from. So we were shipping everywhere up to Connecticut and down south. So cutting and dragging Christmas trees as, you know, an eight, nine, ten year old — that's kind of what it was. Running a chainsaw.

Justin McMillen (00:05:23):

Nice, nice. So you grew up in western North Carolina. And then when did you jump into the Marine Corps — when you were 18 or what?

Brandon Fender (00:05:23):

Yeah. So obviously I didn't really apply myself a lot in school. I was more into chasing women and drinking. You know, I played a lot of sports. Played a lot of soccer. I was really good at soccer. So my goal was to go to a community college in North Carolina to play soccer and, you know, hang out with my friends and, you know, continue to chase women and drink beer. And, you know, 9/11 happened when I was in 10th grade. And, you know, everyone remembers where they were at that time. I vividly remember being in German class. Can't speak a lick of German, by the way, so don't ask.

Justin McMillen (00:06:14):

Please. Okay.

Brandon Fender (00:06:14):

But, you know, they rolled the TV in on the strap-on cart and, you know, watching the towers fall. You know, at the time I didn't understand the impact that it would have on America and, you know, but I do remember watching that for days and really having a lot of heat in my heart. Heat in my heart. And you know, we kind of found out who was responsible. You know, they always talk about nobody ever wants another 9/11, but a 9/12 sure would be nice to have, you know — the way that the country united and took care of each other was something special. And I remember kind of during the initial invasion —

Justin McMillen (00:06:53):

Before you go into that — why do you think it is that people come together in times like that? What is it? During trying times, during times of adversity?

Brandon Fender (00:07:29):

You know, everyone wants a medal and everyone wants someone to give them a hug and say it's going to be okay. You know, everyone wants to be able to go over and talk to their neighbor and feel that they're supported and loved.

Justin McMillen (00:07:49):

Yeah. Yeah, I think about this all the time. There's a book — I know you've read it — Tribe. And it talks about how during difficult times, humans' natural response is to unify. And then there's this — there's an evolutionary reason for this, and it's because for all of human history we would have some sort of external threat. And then the key to us not dying was us coming together. And so it's like this automatic response. And so what we witnessed after 9/11 was like this moment where it was like external threat, and then just our evolutionary — all of our genes kicked on and it was like, come together. And you know, I think about it all the time — why can't we do that shit without having to have some... You know what I mean? It's interesting how you see this in football games and stuff like that — your team and their team. But I wish we could find ways to bond without having to have a common enemy. But it's the number one way to have it happen.

Brandon Fender (00:08:39):

Yeah, unfortunately.

Justin McMillen (00:08:39):

Whether it's a natural disaster or something like 9/11 where you, you know, you see American flags out every single day, people helping each other out.

Brandon Fender (00:09:03):

Yeah. I think there's just such a divide in the country, and there's a lot of different layers to that. But at the end of the day, I don't care if you're white, black, green, Democrat or Republican — you're an American. At the end of the day, you're an American. So I would love for us to get back to that mentality.

Justin McMillen (00:09:23):

You wonder if people know what being an American means now. I know — you were telling your story. I don't want to derail it, but —

Brandon Fender (00:09:23):

No, I mean, that's a good question. Do people know what it means to be an American? I don't think so. I think that our people take it for granted. Unless you've been places and seen struggle and seen how other people live — how other cultures and countries live — the, you know, the amenities that we're so blessed to have here in America. A lot of people don't — you know, take it for granted. And it's not free. Yeah, it's paid for in blood, and it's paid for — and guys giving their life, giving our lives for that American flag. And that's definitely taken for granted.

Justin McMillen (00:09:57):

Yeah. So that — I completely agree. I think without anything to compare it to, it's really hard for people to understand what this means if you're born into it. It's just like, this is what it is, this is how the world is. And it's just not... yeah. America's got a bad rap like that. The general feeling culturally — a lot of people say a lot of terrible things and focus on the negative, and we don't need to get into that right now. But so you — you decided that... You saw 9/11, 9/12, yeah. Everyone's coming together. And then —

Brandon Fender (00:10:41):

Yeah. I remember — you know, I didn't visit the library often in high school, but I remember going to the library every single day during the initial invasion and seeing on the front page of the papers every day, you know, Marines staging, Marines crossing the border — all these headlines. And, you know, my first thought is, I need to do my part. You know, I'm an American. I'm blessed, you know, to grow up the way I did. And I want to do my part.

Justin McMillen (00:11:09):

Many of your friends talking in that way too? Or was it just — you know, who were you talking to? Anyone about it? Like, you talked to your parents about it? Like, hey, I think I'm going to do this? Or was it something you kept to yourself?

Brandon Fender (00:11:27):

You got to remember, I was a delinquent. I was a beer drinker who was just trying not to go to jail every weekend. Sure. I got my first DUI at 16 in my mom's minivan. So my first thing was to get out of the house. But yeah, I would tell them my plans and like, okay, you know. None of my friends went to the military at that time. Everyone went to college.

Justin McMillen (00:11:47):

Why did you choose Marines versus one of the others?

Brandon Fender (00:11:47):

I mean, why take the easy way out?

Justin McMillen (00:11:47):

Yeah, right.

Brandon Fender (00:11:47):

I actually remember the first time I went to the recruiter's office, I was drunk, and the first one that was there was the Army, you know? And I walked in drunk and, you know, said no big guns, no — big guns.

Justin McMillen (00:11:47):

And you're like, okay get —

Brandon Fender (00:11:47):

Like, okay, come take the test. And, you know, I went up to take the test and I'm not a tester. And actually I went back to sign my papers with the Army, and the Marine recruiter was standing outside. And I spoke to him before and he made a comment about why you'd lower your standards, and, you know, the rest is kind of history. Went and sat in his office and we had to go through lots and lots of waivers — for tattoos, for maybe a couple arrests for underage drinking. But that him saying that — like, if he wasn't standing out in the hall that day, who knows? You know, my life might be completely different. But he let me in that ship, my hand said why did you lower your standards, so let's go talk about it.

Justin McMillen (00:13:16):

Yeah, I love it. So you jumped in the Marine Corps?

Brandon Fender (00:13:16):

Yeah, I — you know, I think when I told him, after I signed my papers, I want to go right away. All right. And he was like, the earliest I can get you — you know, was like six months out. So this was the age where it was time to, in there, raise my last little bit of hell, chase some women. And I was telling everybody I was going into the Marine Corps, you know. And funny story — right before I was supposed to go to MEPS, the night before they put us up in a hotel and — I had my nipples pierced, I had my nipples pierced, and I couldn't get them — couldn't get it off, couldn't get the ring off. So I had the janitor of the hotel trying for hours to get the ball off, and he couldn't get it off, and finally, after messing with it for so long, this thing swole up — it was infected. And the next morning I went to see their — like, you can't go like that. Your nipple's inflamed to hell. So that set me back a couple weeks for my nipple to heal. And that's important to note there.

Justin McMillen (00:14:32):

Wow.

Brandon Fender (00:14:32):

But my nipple healed up and I took off. This is October 2003. So I went down to Parris Island and, you know, spent 13 weeks there at Parris Island, played with the infamous sand fleas — which my Hollywood Marines wouldn't know anything about. I just want to throw that out there.

Justin McMillen (00:14:59):

No, I know what you're talking about.

Brandon Fender (00:14:59):

And to be honest, I don't know if I knew what I was getting myself into, you know. We get there and, you know, I wasn't ROTC or anything. I was — I played sports and drank beer, and we're in formation, marching around. What the hell is this? I've spent hours out here marching around — where's the guns at? And looking back, though, you talking about really building a foundation for discipline — when you sit outside in Parris Island for hours and let the sand fleas eat on you, and you can't swat them away. It builds something in you that you will not forget. Because if you swat one and kill it, you're back in that thing like literally.

Justin McMillen (00:15:44):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (00:15:44):

You know, they'd always say, yeah, just let them eat. Well, it's out there for hours and they would just eat. Hey. So, you know, spent 13 weeks there and, you know, after boot camp, you go home for ten days, and they made it clear — don't be the one that goes home and goes to jail. Well, what happened is, I was coming out of the Wendy's parking lot — give me a couple junior bacon cheeseburgers back when they were $0.99 apiece — my old Toyota Tacoma, spinning tires, drinking beer, and they caught me at like 89 in a 35. And I seen them coming, and I dropped it in gear and kept on going. So I'm going through this neighborhood and thought I lost them. And I see the cops coming. So I'm in this neighborhood now, nowhere to go. So I go to this guy's backyard, end up jumping a railroad tie, and, you know, so I have to get out, and I'm on foot now. And I'm in some Doc Martens and no shirt and some camo britches, and I'm getting out there running, and this fat police officer's chasing me, huffing and shit. I stopped and looked at my shoes, and I was like, you can't get me, fat boy. Come on. About that time, three more officers pulled up with the dog, and they got me. So I was that guy that went to jail right after boot camp. And yeah, that was not fun. Reporting to School of Infantry seven days later.

Justin McMillen (00:17:10):

Yeah. But how did they — how did they react to it?

Brandon Fender (00:17:36):

Did they — I got my first ass chewing, you know, but it was also — you've got... You know, between 300 and 500 Marines reporting into this School of Infantry. So I kind of got lost in the sauce. I got my initial ass chewing and then every time I seen the first sergeant out, I kind of tried to hide. So he didn't see me. We obviously didn't learn my lesson then. But, you know, went through... So I got stationed at Camp Lejeune. So I stand — after School of Infantry, okay. Camp Lejeune, which is, you know, in North Carolina, about four hours from where I grew up. It's about an hour from Wilmington where all my friends went to college, where my sister went to college. So me and all the guys always had somewhere to go party on the weekend, you know. I was 19 years old at this point. And this is right after the initial invasion of Iraq, and, you know, right around 2004, the Sunni Triangle was getting really hot around Ramadi, Fallujah area. A lot of the foreign fighters were coming to this area. This is where we were chasing Zarqawi. So it was a hotbed. And, you know, we found out we were going to Fallujah and, you know, instead of guys being like, oh man — it's like everyone's chanting and yelling. And it's like, this is what we trained to do. You know, like, I — you remember being in German class with hate in your heart. This is what it's about. You know, going back a little bit — looking at kind of how a lot of my life was shaped and formed. I didn't realize it, but, you know, even in high school I had a drinking issue. You know, everyone would drink on the weekends and I was that guy drinking on the way to school in the morning, you know. And that kind of followed me throughout my military career. So, you know, I got busted down a couple times as a junior Marine, got caught bootlegging ten gallons of moonshine into Camp Lejeune. And that didn't go over well. So but yeah, you know, 19 years old, we find out we're going to Fallujah and you don't know what to expect. Like, you've seen the news, we get the briefs, you know, you can plan for something, but we really don't understand what we're getting ourselves into. So to put it in context, this is really early on.

Justin McMillen (00:20:22):

Yeah. 2004. So this is the whole world is really hot for this idea of like, we have to make this right. 9/11 — like there's vengeance, there's somebody who's trying to kill us. And so you're with this group of guys and it's like, okay, we're going to go do this. But everybody's young and they've never done anything like this before.

Brandon Fender (00:20:44):

Yeah. And I really don't even — you know, everyone wanted to get revenge for 9/11. But to be honest, I'm not even sure if we understood our mission or why we were in Iraq in the early stages. You know, the guy that masterminded 9/11, he's not in Iraq, right? He was in a cave in Afghanistan somewhere. But it wasn't even about that — it was about the guy to the left and right of you. And this is why we're here, you know. You get a bunch of young Marines together, as far as knowing why we were there — most of them didn't even know. So, it's the guy to the left and right of you, you have your job, and then you have your immediate people you got to take care of. Yeah. And that's what it was about.

Justin McMillen (00:21:31):

Not in that order.

Brandon Fender (00:21:31):

Right.

Justin McMillen (00:21:31):

Yeah. So do you remember — so what the hell was it like to go from the U.S. and land over there? Like, bring us to that day.

Brandon Fender (00:21:50):

Like, do you remember it? Well, yeah. I mean, I remember — you know, we stopped in Kuwait first. And I remember as soon as they opened the hatch on the plane and stepping out, I was like, Holy shit, it's hot here. Like a different kind of hot. This ain't the South hot. This is like a dry heat that is like no other. So I remember that initial smell and feeling when it kind of just hit you — first thing, like, this is it. We're here now. And it's a lot of guys like... You know, spent a couple days in Kuwait kind of getting acclimated to things. And, you know, we get our mission, understand where we're going, and at this time we only had a few guys that had deployed before. You know, there were only a few guys in the platoon that did the initial push in Iraq. So, you know, these were junior guys. Are you guys talking about like, whoa, this is crazy that we're here? Or are people keeping to themselves about it?

Justin McMillen (00:22:53):

And you can tell everyone's tripping in their heads. Like, everyone dealt with it differently.

Brandon Fender (00:22:53):

Yeah. A lot of the — I remember the first brief that we got right before we left Kuwait was, look in this room. Some of these guys will not be coming back with us. And then you kind of see — it's like, this is what it is. You know, everyone deals with that differently. You know, some people might joke around and mask it, and then other guys are, you know, keeping to themselves. And, you know, everyone deals with it differently. But we didn't know what to expect, you know. About this — I don't know if I've ever heard anyone ask this, and I hope I don't screw it up in terms of trying to get it — my phrasing out here. And if you don't want to answer this or it doesn't, you know, you don't have a good answer, you don't have to.

Justin McMillen (00:23:57):

Of course. Always. Right. But you're raised in America — killing is wrong, that's the rules. Something through training gets you to a place where you're now told it's okay. In fact, it's encouraged. This is what you're here to do. How — how does that — how did you make sense of that switch?

Brandon Fender (00:23:57):

Yeah. I mean, early on — early on, like I said, there was so much hate in my heart that I didn't care. Okay? I didn't — you know, there's people that are trying to kill me and my guys, and I don't care. You know, through multiple deployments my perception changes on that, and you start to see like, good people here are just stuck in a shitty self-initiated situation. So that started to change. But you know, initially it was — some get revenge. You know, these ain't the guys that done that, but these are the people that are in front of us.

Justin McMillen (00:24:56):

Yeah. I guess it's maybe — as soon as someone starts shooting at you, then it's pretty obvious.

Brandon Fender (00:24:56):

Yeah. You know, but I think that's — you know, in light of — did you watch Jake's speech?

Justin McMillen (00:24:56):

You know, it — yeah.

Brandon Fender (00:25:14):

Yeah yeah, I figured you would. And there was a lot of good stuff in there, I think. Standards and elevating standards. And but he was talking about — I don't know the words he used, I'll screw it up, so I'll try not to quote him. But it was something around like, we're here to — to kill, right? Yeah. That's part of the equation. And I thought, man, it's interesting because the average civilian that doesn't or hasn't been around military at all — that would be jarring, you know. In that — that subject. You got a bunch of young guys and it's like, okay, here's the job. Like, you're going to kill people now. And nobody talks about that — like, you don't hear... But it's that framing that that person has to get their head around — the idea that maybe they're not going to do it, but they may have to, and they got to be okay with it. They got to make sense of it for themselves.

Justin McMillen (00:25:48):

Well, I think we've also become so politically correct that we don't just say it for what it is.

Brandon Fender (00:26:06):

And that's — number one, our job is to kill the enemy, right? Which became so politically correct — leadership, military, the world in general — that you kind of step away from that. And when it's time, you know, to put our boots on and go do it — it's like, really, we got to do this? Like you can't send a 19, 20 year old kid into a warzone and prep him like he's going to dance class, right? You know, that's one thing about the Marine Corps — we've always had standards, high standards, and kept those standards. And that is the way that they prepared our mentality.

Justin McMillen (00:26:38):

Makes sense. Do you think the reason that — that you said is politically correct — but is it also just because if you grew up in the U.S., you're so removed from murder, even though — even though they say, you know, there's — there are a lot of shootings and different things like that. But people seem really detached from the idea of good and evil here. You know, I think — like, I'll get someone to tell me, oh yeah, like, we don't need to be doing this or that, or they'll have some comment or opinion on the military, and I'll throw out some just horrific story about something I heard right, that the bad guys are doing. And it's like, whoa. And I'm like, doesn't that guy need — I don't — you think that? Yeah. And then they're like... But I think people here maybe are just so in their own little bubble.

Brandon Fender (00:27:27):

You know, I think a lot of guys come from very rural areas to the military. So they don't deal with a lot of that or have not seen a lot of that growing up. You know, I grew up in a small town too, so there wasn't a lot of murders, there wasn't a lot of violence. There's some — some people that grew up in some of the bigger cities to where it's kind of more common. So, you know, I think there's different perspectives and mindsets on how someone prepares for — this is your job to kill the enemy. Yeah. I will say, that's one thing that the Marine Corps is very, very good at — from day one, is getting you in that mindset and preparing you for that.

Justin McMillen (00:28:09):

Yeah. Marines are built different for sure. You know my opinion about that. So okay — so then you're in Kuwait. It's hot as hell. Dry heat. Everyone's dealing with this stuff in a different way. And then when did you end up in Fallujah? And how does this — everyone knows the famous story. Not everyone, but most people know the famous story of the contractors being hung off the bridge in Fallujah. Was that after?

Brandon Fender (00:28:33):

No. So that was early on in 2004 — the Blackwater incident? Yeah. To where the contractors were killed, and, you know, dragged through the streets and hung from the Blackwater Bridge. The famous Blackwater Bridge. And that prompted — you know, early on — when we started to push through Fallujah, the first push, and got pulled back from leadership in the White House. And, you know, the second push actually happened late 2004, in November. So once again, there was still a lot of politics involved there. But this is where every foreign fighter around the world was coming in and — and moving major — casualties away. And this is also when, you know, 2004, 2005 was when IEDs got very big, you know, and that's something that's hard to prepare for. You know, people always asking, what were some of the scariest days in your military career. And it wasn't any of the gunfights. It wasn't anything like that. It was walking and not knowing if I'm about to get my legs blown off, or this is going to be my last step, you know? So that's the psychological part of that, you know, especially early on as a, you know, young 20 year old. 00;30;17;28 - 00;31;02;03 Brandon Fender So, you know, Fallujah was a place where we had to grow up very quickly. You know, it was a lot of house to house, door to door stuff. It's, you know, the bloodiest battle in the Iraq war — Operation Phantom Fury. So that really set the standard for, you know — and also during this time, I want to point out, you see 19, 20, 21 year old young men — you know, really kids — being put in positions of leadership. And some of the most heroic, selfless acts that I've seen — you would never — you would never think that a 19, 20, 21 year old — like, you wouldn't think about that here. And there's some guys that put themselves out there and gave their life. And just some of the everyday tasks that guys did for each other — you know, that was probably one of the most eye opening things. You know, just as an American — what it means to be your brother's keeper, or to, you know, really look out to the left and right of you. And that's not just something that was said. That's what these guys take to heart.

Justin McMillen (00:31:30):

Yeah, man. I feel like I just feel what you're saying. Just... And so the stuff with the contractors happened before you guys got there.

Brandon Fender (00:31:50):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:31:50):

Was that like a haunting thing for you? Or — I mean, you knew about that, right? I mean, it was all over Fox News and CNN. I mean, you're seeing these things on the news. And I remember watching the news and every day it was — it would show the kids, you know, show the kids and... Bad stuff. But the Blackwater thing, that's...

Brandon Fender (00:32:25):

What everyone was honing in on. Yeah. You know, and that was terrible. You know, that was terrible. And you talk about once again wanting to get revenge, you know. So we find out we're going there — it's like, we're going to go hunt these fuckers down and we're going to kill them.

Justin McMillen (00:32:45):

Yeah, yeah. Do you remember — was there a moment when you were in Fallujah where it just hit you where you were, and that — that this is what I'm doing? Like, do you remember — in the...

Brandon Fender (00:32:45):

Yeah. Yeah. I think it was, you know — probably about the second week there. We're going out on a convoy and we stopped in the middle of Fallujah. And we start taking some small arms fire. And, you know, you got a bunch of guys in here going, oh — fucking shoot back. Like, we — we can do this. We can actually shoot back and not get in trouble. Like, so that was like, very — I mean. Then like probably two or three days later we had a guy get shot in the helmet, you know, and it rocked his ass. But he was fine. And it was like, okay, this is real. You know, before you get on patrol, you get — you know, you do a turnover from the previous unit and you're hearing about, you know, some of the hot spots, some of the things that they were tactically doing right, doing wrong, some things that were just going on within our area of operation. And, you know, I remember the first time that I went to get in a Humvee, I got in the back seat and there were like three bullet holes in my window like, Holy shit. You know, it was like, okay, this is real.

Justin McMillen (00:34:04):

And I'm not gonna lie — this is bulletproof, right?

Brandon Fender (00:34:04):

Right. You know. But early on in Fallujah, we're riding around in Humvees with no armor on them, with no turret — you know, exposed. Or running around in the back of high back Humvees just open, you know, which now, thinking of it, is just like completely crazy. You know, then they started doing a lot of the up-armor stuff. So maybe 2005 or 6. But to think about just riding around Fallujah in a turret with no... No armor, like I said.

Justin McMillen (00:35:01):

Nuts. Yeah, yeah. How did — did the other guys who were with you — I'm sure certainly everybody's going to respond to these kind of realities in a different way. And they — you said all that shit, okay, people, there's someone just shot at us, can we shoot back? Right. Are some people freaking out? Like, did anybody kind of lose it?

Brandon Fender (00:35:24):

Or — I mean, you know, there are people that you train with, you drill and drill and drill with, and when push comes to shove — like, you have live rounds coming down range at your head. Everyone's going to have that initial instinct of like, what to do — fight or flight. Yeah. You see some people kind of freeze up and everyone's going to respond differently, you know? But for the most part, it's — you know, once again, you got 19, 20, 21 year old young Marines, team leaders, fire team leaders being put in positions of leadership. It's like, okay — shoot, move, communicate. Right. We're running toward where the fire is coming from. We're going to communicate and we're going to lay down some fire and we're going to fucking kill them.

Justin McMillen (00:36:13):

Wow. Yeah. So these are — it's like simple questions, but I think it's actually really valuable because I think if you haven't been through that — like, what I'm imagining — and I can be wrong — but I'm imagining that you're in these moments and you're having this like reality check. Like, Holy shit. And then suddenly everybody's probably similar to like the 9/12 thing — And instead of — coming together. And it's like, okay, we got to do this. And then probably everybody grows up real fast when they all have that realization. It's like, also boys turn into men, probably in pretty short order, right?

Brandon Fender (00:36:40):

Yeah. You see the creases on the face start to change. You know, some hair's coming up on the chest pretty quick. Everybody's got a lip full of Copenhagen and smoking cigarettes. Look like we're 40 or 50 years old at 19, 20. But also looking back on it — it was some of the best times of my life as well, you know, and despite all the horrific things that are seen, and all the things we went through, there's also some of the best times of my life, which — you know, just sitting here talking to you about... I haven't thought about this stuff in a long time.

Justin McMillen (00:37:33):

Is it okay? How are we — ?

Brandon Fender (00:37:33):

No, no, no, no, it's fine, it's good. It's because, you know, as I'm sitting here talking about it, I'm remembering these things — the good and the bad. And I've had to change my relationship to this stuff, you know. And it's not as — fun, but it's also good for me to remember because it, you know, it's been 20 years ago.

Justin McMillen (00:37:58):

Wow. That's crazy. But also it just seems like yesterday in a sense.

Brandon Fender (00:37:58):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:37:58):

I think — I don't think our plan was to talk about this. So we can shift. But it's — yeah, it's interesting. I just think there's a lot of moments like this, and it's the little moments and the little thoughts that I think aren't really recorded and valuable for people to hear. I imagine that there's going to be other Marines watching this that remember that moment when they realized like, Holy shit, I'm here, or wow, this is real. Or, you know, it wasn't all bad, right?

Brandon Fender (00:38:21):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:38:21):

I think that's — and you've done such a good job in your life with taking all the different pain and bullshit — and that kid who keeps getting arrested all the time — and pulling that into the person you are now. So these are important parts of your story, and I think worth talking about.

Brandon Fender (00:38:50):

Yeah. No, no, it's good. You know, I — I spent 2004, you know, came home. I went back late 2005 and 6. And, you know, is it — to come home after all of that... Surreal. It's a real, you know, thing — the call that America is at war. They say America is at war, but no — America's at the mall. Like, I thought about that. And you come home and your perception of what reality is is so skewed. Think about being on the gas for months and months and months and coming home, and you're just supposed to slow it down, and you go out to a restaurant and you go out to the mall. I just drove down the road and you look around, and it's like people have no idea what's going on in the world. You know, I think it was — yeah, let's put a yellow ribbon on the back of our car saying support our troops. But I felt like — you know, most of society had no idea what was going on. And maybe that was just my, you know, 19, 20 year old view on it. But I kind of felt hurt. I felt hurt and I didn't know how to act, really, you know. Because when we come home, all these things happen. And the way as Marines we dealt with it was with dark humor and drinking.

Justin McMillen (00:40:10):

Right.

Brandon Fender (00:40:41):

And I didn't deal with it early on. Like, my way of dealing with it was going right back, you know, deploying again.

Justin McMillen (00:40:41):

I mean, yeah, yeah.

Brandon Fender (00:40:41):

That — my way of dealing with that was going right back. Because I didn't feel comfortable here. I felt very uncomfortable, you know. And I'm sure a lot of guys can relate. Like, over there was where it felt comfortable. That was the easy part. Coming home was the hard part. And I didn't want to deal with it. So I went right back. And that was kind of a deployment that definitely had a big impact on my life. And I'll talk about it just a little bit — not one certain situation. So I went back to Fallujah the second time.

Justin McMillen (00:41:26):

So you can go — yeah, go right back to Fallujah.

Brandon Fender (00:41:26):

And, you know, one thing that Marines don't do — we're not a — a stability... We don't go in, occupy somewhere and stabilize and stay there, right? We're more of the door kickers. Take the trash out and turn it over, you know. So it was more of stability operations. So we're in the middle of Fallujah recruiting Iraqi army, Iraqi police. And so this is during the time that the Fallujah sniper was — they'd been shooting a lot of Marines. And we're on gate guard early. Is this —

Justin McMillen (00:41:55):

This had been going on for a while? The Fallujah sniper?

Brandon Fender (00:41:55):

Yeah. I forget exactly how many Marines he had killed before this incident, but yeah, it had been going on for a little — Little while.

Justin McMillen (00:42:25):

Did you guys all know about this guy? So it was like — be careful, there's somebody...

Brandon Fender (00:42:25):

Yeah. I mean, you know, we got daily intel reports on kind of what was going on in the city. Anybody have any idea who it was at that point? You know, I'm a 20 year old lance corporal, so I didn't know things like that at the time. But yeah, we're on gate guard — we're doing — we're recruiting Iraqi police and Iraqi army, who does gate guard. For people who are listening — basically there's a government center, and this is in the middle of Fallujah. And basically we're standing there while they're doing the recruiting process, fingerprints and everything. We had barricades to where, you know, if there's a VBIED to come at us or whatever it may be — we're the first line of defense before it gets to the government center. Okay? Right. Yeah, it was early January morning. You know, the city was — so this was 2005, this is after the push through Fallujah. So some of the people, some of the civilians, the populace had started to come back. You know, Fallujah is a big city, so it was very busy that morning. And two shots rang out. You know, two Marines got shot. One was KIA, the other was shot in the throat. And, you know, I'm standing there, and it's one of those things where — you know, as a — I'm 20 at that time. You don't — my mind could not keep up with what was — I couldn't process what was going on in real time from it. So it's just more of an action thing, right? Stop the bleeding. Like, where is — stop the bleeding.

Justin McMillen (00:44:19):

Yes. These guys are close proximity.

Brandon Fender (00:44:19):

Yeah. Okay. So — so how long have you been in the country at this point?

Justin McMillen (00:44:19):

You just got back?

Brandon Fender (00:44:19):

Yeah. Maybe six weeks. Okay. Not even. So — stop the bleeding, you know. And one Marine's KIA for sure. The other one's bleeding out. So in time, we get some more Marines to come over. You know, we get them over, get a medevac over to Fallujah Surgical — which is the level one trauma center there in Fallujah. And did you know the two guys?

Justin McMillen (00:44:45):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (00:44:45):

And the incident, you know — and the thing is, it's one of those things where you don't stop and think about it. There's still a mission to be done, right? You still — in a situation to where, you know, the mission's got to be completed. So it's not like you sit down and grieve and think about this now. Like, that'll happen later. Continue the mission.

Justin McMillen (00:45:17):

Were you afraid that — I mean, I'm just trying to understand. So this happens. You go to render aid.

Brandon Fender (00:45:17):

But what about him shooting again? Not thinking about that.

Justin McMillen (00:45:17):

Was there anyone trying to — to fire back or any idea...

Brandon Fender (00:45:17):

I don't know where it's coming from.

Justin McMillen (00:45:17):

Wow.

Brandon Fender (00:45:17):

No. Is there a couple of shots? I don't know where it's coming from. And there was a lot of — a lot of moving parts that morning. There's a lot going on. But, you know, some other Marines got there really quickly. You know, we got the guy, got the bleeding stopped and got him to the surgical center. But I think one of the things for me to point out that really affected me was — so this guy was videotaping this and using that for propaganda, right? I forget exactly how long after this that happened. But we got the guy and we got the video, right. And I ended up getting that video from our Intel. And when I got home from that deployment, I watched that video over and over and over — thousands of times — to where it got so ingrained in my brain, you know. And at this point I'm getting hammered drunk every single night. Just out of my mind. And it was a lot of — well, why not me? Why not me? So a lot of survivor's guilt went on at this time, and I didn't really understand how bad it was. You know, a lot of guys around me were saying... But I thought, this is just what it is, you know? But that actually — you know, that particular incident kind of shaped and fueled what the next years of my life would look like.

Justin McMillen (00:47:36):

You know, just curious — why do you think you continued to watch it?

Brandon Fender (00:47:36):

To punish myself. Yeah. I know — I have to punish myself. Yeah, to punish myself, for sure. You know, for feeling guilty that it wasn't me, you know. And for that, I would continue to watch it to punish myself. You know, I did that for a lot of years — probably close to two years. And, you know, I started doing therapy around that kind of outside, without anyone really knowing. And how — long story short was — like I said, probably a couple of years. And I ended up deleting that video, you know. And that was probably one of the hardest things for me to do. Because I felt so attached to it — that deleting that made me feel like I was removing myself from it. Like, I still wanted to be punished for this. I still wanted to watch this and punish myself. So deleting that was a big thing for me. But it also kind of shaped what the next, you know, years of my life looked like. It started with that. And, you know, when people ask what were some of the worst experiences you went through — that was definitely one. You know, the physical stuff is one thing, but the emotional toll that that took on me almost made me take my own life, you know? So if I didn't delete that video when I did, we probably wouldn't be sitting here talking. So yeah. I mean, sitting there thinking back on that and just, you know, talking about it now is not like talking about it 15 years ago. You know, as I look at that incident now — and I always wondered, why me, why me, why me? And we only see a snapshot of what's laid out for us in life, you know? And being able to look at my life now and look back on that incident — it's been revealed to me. Why me. Like, it's been revealed to me. Why I was spared. Why it wasn't me. Everything happens for a reason. And I didn't believe that — I had a bad relationship to God. I was mad at God for a long time. And it took me years to see this. Probably not until the last four or five years, really, that I started to see this. But, you know, we only see a snapshot of what's laid out for us. And looking back now, I'm starting to see the full picture — it ain't revealed yet, but the pieces are coming together. You know, and I think my way of honoring those guys is to continue to do what I'm doing now and be the best me and be able to help people.

Justin McMillen (00:50:43):

So yeah, we're certainly doing that.

Brandon Fender (00:50:43):

Yeah, yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:50:43):

And that's a hell of a story. I'm glad you figured it out.

Brandon Fender (00:50:43):

I'm still figuring it out.

Justin McMillen (00:50:43):

Yeah. I mean, we all are. I'm still figuring out the whole life thing.

Brandon Fender (00:50:43):

Yeah, well, yeah. What are their names? Dude, is that okay?

Justin McMillen (00:50:43):

That's it. Yeah.

Brandon Fender (00:50:43):

So, Ron McCurdy and Corporal Trotter. You know, McCurdy... He's the one that was killed in action. He was a big LSU fan from Baton Rouge. He always wore these damn purple Crocs around, and everyone laughed at him, you know? So he's the guy always wearing these big purple Crocs around, being annoying about the LSU Tigers. But... Just pure hearted. Give him a mission, give him the heaviest thing you got, and point him in the direction — he's going to go get it done. You know, yeah. You know, I didn't — I remember when we got back, we had a memorial service there and his family came. You know, his brother ended up joining the Marine Corps as well. I think some years later. But seeing his family there — it's one of those things that just, like, breaks your heart. Breaks your heart, you know? And then that even fed into the — it should have been me, right? It should have been me. When I see the heartache in his mother's eyes and his girlfriend's — his brother, you know — I lived in that mentality for a long time and it almost broke me. It did break me, you know. That was probably one of the hardest things I'd say I ever had to deal with. You know, you can look at physical scars, physical wounds and everything that goes on with somebody physically, but the things that cut the deepest are on the inside that nobody can see.

Justin McMillen (00:52:47):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (00:52:47):

You know, I was very good at putting a smile on my face and saying that everything's good. I'm okay. I wanted to kill myself every single day.

Justin McMillen (00:53:16):

You think that — you looking at like — so you're seeing his parents and his girlfriend. You're like — this is your head — like, this guy's a better man than me. He should be alive. Like, why — yeah, for sure. F*** up, kid or whatever, and...

Brandon Fender (00:53:16):

For sure.

Justin McMillen (00:53:46):

And then what I like about all this, though — I mean, you saying like, them finding out why. You know, in the fact that there's fuel there. I hope that his family could hear this knowing that some part of him lives in you, in the work you're doing, and ultimately the fact that you're saving people's lives — that's that energy, right? Like...

Brandon Fender (00:53:46):

Yeah. I mean, like I said, for a long time I didn't know. You know, but I was even — you know, I told some guys this a couple weeks ago — that I was on the way to work, just reflecting about life and some of the lows — not the low points, some of the lows of my life. And, you know, being able to drive into a place to where people's lives are getting changed every single day — and just reflecting — it was like a snapshot of my life, like kind of flashing like a movie reel flashing through my head. And I could just see these guys. And, you know, definitely help — just a lot of the guys that were lost — looking down and smiling and being proud. You know, because at the end of the day, that's what I want — these guys to be proud of me. I want to be able to live a life — I want to be able to live a life that can live up to their sacrifice. I don't know if that's possible, but I'm trying every day and striving to be better every single day to do that. You know, I think that, however I look at it, I use it as motivation to just be better every day.

Justin McMillen (00:55:34):

You know, I'll tell you my view of you in this regard. You see these — you know, social media — you see these influencers that are — I'm talking about the veteran population now. There's a lot of talk. And when I think of like one of the most — the best examples of an excellent Marine — I think it's sitting across from me right now. Like, I think the whole Marine Corps should be proud of you. Yeah. And, you know, that — and I mean, that would tell the Marine Corps what they should do. But you would think if it's this brotherhood that you're part of, yeah, that what you do every day is extraordinary. It doesn't even matter what you think about yourself. But it's like — it's not about even that. It's like the reality of your existence is pretty, pretty extraordinary. And it's not just that. It's also just as an example of a veteran. I think there's a lot — I know there's a lot of veterans that are struggling, trying to find — trying to turn their pain into wisdom or something of value to society. And you've done that. And I think there's a lot of people that can learn from how you managed to put that all together. And I — you know, we can talk about that, but I — that's yeah, it's a big deal. I mean, from the sidelines, Brandon — it's like kind of a whole shit thing to see. I think that's part of your life — so many people respect you.

Brandon Fender (00:56:54):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (00:56:54):

Because it's one thing for somebody to do something great — it's something else for somebody to build themselves, go through all kinds of difficult things, and then recreate who they are. And then it's not enough for you just to do that for yourself. You've got to like — yeah, like bring as many people as you can with you.

Brandon Fender (00:57:23):

Well, that was better said — it wasn't just — if it was up to me, then who knows what the hell had happened. You know, having good people in my corner that really believed in me and believed in me and saw something in me when I didn't see anything in myself and didn't even really believe in myself. You know, when I took my uniform off and lost my identity, lost my purpose — that's all I knew since I was 18, you know. And then a lot of the struggles that I went through trying to find, what is my purpose? But I also lived in such a poor me mentality for so long that I deserved to continue to beat myself up and punish myself. And I would just completely break myself off. And this is even after I deleted that video — I would break myself off physically to punish myself, to feel some sort of pain, because I knew it wasn't enough. So, you know, it changed my outlook and relationship on that just as a whole. When we talk about growing from struggle, adversity — being in the depths of PTSD, addiction, isolation, depression — being in the depths and the trenches of that and trying to pull myself out. I never thought it was possible. I thought I was so far gone, so far broken, that I was going to die with my own pistol in my mouth or a needle in my arm. So — I mean, and even looking back on it now — and I tell guys all the time — like, I remember those days. I have that healthy fear of going back there because I never want to go back there again. Like, I remember those days. But even thinking during that time that I was unlovable. You know, that that was going to be my legacy. That was going to be my legacy.

Justin McMillen (00:59:34):

You know, you were — you were drinking and running amok before you went into the Marines. Then you went into the Marines, you came out. Was it the same or worse? Probably worse, based on what you're...

Brandon Fender (00:59:34):

Yeah. Yeah, it was definitely worse. 01;00;00;23 - 01;00;23;26 Brandon Fender I mean, while I was in the Marine Corps I got like two more DUIs. Right? So I've got at this point three DUIs before I'm like 23. Well, but I was also — any time I got a DUI, I was pulling in and I didn't need a damn license when I was born. But I think the slap on the wrist — here's what, you know, continued to make me think I was bulletproof. You know, I go on these deployments and I come back and I get this DUI — like, I can do what I want.

Justin McMillen (01:00:23):

Yeah. Yeah. What — yeah. It seems like... I don't know, I think there's a lot of young guys who are lost. I mean, you were lost before you went, and you certainly found something there — the brotherhood.

Brandon Fender (01:00:50):

Yeah. I don't think I'd — I had never been in a place where I could truly count on somebody. You know, my dad — alcoholic, in and out of my life. My stepfather — very good man, but didn't really have that connection with him. A lot of it was based around work. And once again, he really took care of our family and worked his ass off. But not a lot of, you know, connection with that. I never really had someone that I could truly trust. So just like anything, when I bought all the way into that oath that we take as Marines — I lived by that. And when I lost that, I felt like I was by myself again. And I was in the deepest, darkest place that you could be. Yeah. Yeah. And I didn't pull myself out of there. I didn't. I failed a lot. I failed a lot trying to get out of that hole. There was a lot of times — a lot of times where I should have been dead, you know. Between drinking and driving, between — I would say — between the situations that I put myself in. Because I was always continuing to punish myself. I wanted to punish myself because that was not enough in here. I didn't give my life for my country, so I wasn't enough to me, right? I wasn't enough. So I was looking to punish myself. I didn't care if I lived or died. I didn't care.

Justin McMillen (01:02:33):

And so that just sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Brandon Fender (01:02:33):

Oh, it's a ticking time bomb. Yeah. Like, I was not someone you wanted to be around at that time. You know, one of my best friends — when I got back one time, he seen everything that I was going through. And we're sitting on his couch and I'm showing him all my guns, and I'm hammered drunk. I'm showing him this video, and I take a 12 gauge and — this is like, blasted one. Right through the refrigerator at the back of the house — sitting in the living room. He's like, what the hell?

Justin McMillen (01:03:28):

You know.

Brandon Fender (01:03:28):

Yeah. This is a childhood friend of mine that's known me from third grade through everything, you know, and he'd been through a lot of things with me as well. Sure. But, you know, he'd seen me struggle from the beginning all the way to the end. Until the day I got sober, to, you know, today. You know, that was probably the one person that I could count on. But just to give you an idea — like, I didn't care, you know. I was living life 100 miles an hour and I did not care. But once again, looking back on that situation, it was me that did live that day for a reason. Once... I didn't see that for a long time.

Justin McMillen (01:04:30):

You didn't have a place to put your purpose?

Brandon Fender (01:04:30):

Yeah. You work with a lot of — men and women?

Justin McMillen (01:04:30):

Men, men and women. But it's primarily men.

Brandon Fender (01:04:30):

Yes. And I guess — I'm laughing, but these are guys that — they're like a mirror, right? You see yourself in them.

Justin McMillen (01:04:30):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (01:04:30):

22, don't give a f***, running like crazy. Some of them are veterans, some are not.

Justin McMillen (01:05:01):

What do you think is — what — why do you think young — well, first of all, do you think young men are struggling in society today? Do you think that's like a common thing, what you were going through? Or — talking before you went into a different — I mean, do I think young men or women are struggling today?

Brandon Fender (01:05:26):

Yes. And that's because of the reality that we've created as a society based upon what a man is today. You know, and a lot of people might not agree with that. But, you know, I think our perception of what a man is today has been so skewed — based off our values and morals and what has made us thrive. Yeah. Man made — in the greatest sense. You know, it was, you know, first and foremost — I'm a protector and a provider. I'm a protector and a provider. And you're crystal clear about that.

Justin McMillen (01:05:59):

Yeah, yeah. Forged in fire, right?

Brandon Fender (01:05:59):

Yeah. So first and foremost, I'm here to protect my family by all means necessary and then provide for them. I think young men today are lacking in positive male role models. You know, obviously mental health, substance abuse — all the things that have gotten in the way of young men having positive male role models in their life. And just the disconnect — the disconnect between families today. You know, I think about 25 years ago. Yeah, 25 years ago, we always ate as a family. We always sat as a family. Even when I didn't want to — we ate as a family. We did a lot of things as a family. And, you know, I think we're getting just so far removed from what connection is, what connection as a family looks like. And I say that because I hear it every single day from dads. Yeah. It's — yeah. Young men, you know, 20, 22 years old, that have been struggling with substance abuse and mental health issues — and they'll get into the thick of their families. Like, I didn't have anybody. I had two younger sisters, so I had to provide for them when I'm 12 years old. We're not equipped to do that. And I hear that day in, day out — I had no positive male role model.

Justin McMillen (01:07:53):

It scares me how much that's degrading. Because it's not just in the home — it's outside of the home. And it's even in the narrative around society. You know, I think it's starting to change. But once a target was established on just the core traits of a man, and suddenly people had something to point at and say that's wrong and bad — that was a problem, because there's yeah, 50% of the population is male. And if the core traits — the things that we just inherently are — are bad, then how do you ever not look in the mirror if you're conditioned to believe that? It's like, I'm not — I'm just — my being born this way makes me bad. You know?

Brandon Fender (01:08:20):

It's yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:08:20):

It's interesting, I think, looking at the young generation today — looking at what is a man, what is a man. You know, when you think of growing up — what a man is like — what's the first thing that comes to your head?

Brandon Fender (01:08:48):

I think a provider — somebody who takes care of — and I mean, it is very similar — it's somebody who protects and provides. It's somebody that the world can count on.

Justin McMillen (01:08:48):

Yeah. So I feel like that — the more people that depend on you, like the more — I think it's a clear metric. You know, like for example — you have hundreds of people that depend on you. At the end of the day it's like, eyes are on you — what do we do? And you have to give them answers. And on many levels — psychologically, emotionally, financially, in terms of work. And so yeah, that's to me that's what a part of being a man is — keeping your word. I think being okay with that. Okay. But embracing the side of us that's capable of violence and aggression — I think that's really important.

Brandon Fender (01:09:43):

Yeah. I think the perception has been so skewed on that piece.

Justin McMillen (01:09:43):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (01:09:43):

Right. And it doesn't matter what side of the aisle that you sit on. There's always going to be different outlets and perceptions on what a man is. You know, it's a different day for everybody. But obviously it affects our society and the narrative that is being told to young men today.

Justin McMillen (01:10:08):

I think — I think there's basic truths too, because it's males — it's in any species — like, the aggressive part is actually a huge part of who we are that men don't want to talk about. Like, men are capable of incredibly violent and aggressive behavior. And it's a part that we do not want to lose. Yeah. And it's a part that if you don't understand — and you don't spend time dancing with it to some degree — then it actually lives behind the wall, like in a shadow. And those are very scary people.

Brandon Fender (01:10:34):

Yeah. I see that all the time. It's like — hey, we had somebody at work that we were working with, and they basically proclaimed that they hated men — kind of a thing. This was a man. It's like, well, problem number one. So you got to look at yourself in the mirror every day — so you just said you hate yourself. Yeah. And the second part is just — all the stereotypically male behavior just repulses him. Okay. Well, he has all of those traits — for sure. Stuffing them down. And, you know, it's happening. It's like they're popping out in these weird ways and it's like it's actually controlling him far more than somebody...

Justin McMillen (01:11:22):

Yeah, yeah, that's — yeah. So there's something about embracing that part of who we are, but also understanding that — first of all, being aware it's there. Yeah. Having an understanding that it's there and being able to control it and harness it and bring it out when necessary.

Brandon Fender (01:11:49):

Yeah. You know, a man that is very good at harnessing and being able to control this and use it in a healthy way — is dangerous. And not just in the physical sense, but in the sense that whatever I set my mind to, I can accomplish. Yeah. I'm powerful.

Justin McMillen (01:11:49):

Powerful? Yeah. Do you — at what point — so one way to talk about masculinity is to say at some point men — or boys — and then they become men. So when in life does that happen? And what do you think is the thing you can point at that says that that's an indication that it has happened?

Brandon Fender (01:12:23):

I would say that time when — when I think about going from a boy to a man — is when given a responsibility that my family depends on. Right. And that can be early on — maybe as early as cutting the grass, you know. But when I think about going from a boy to a man — when I'm given responsibility and someone, my family, anyone depends on me. Okay, now I'm stepping into their shoes like that.

Justin McMillen (01:12:49):

That's great. So it's like — so do you think that part of male — like our natural male identity is just a sense of duty and responsibility? Like, that's part of what being a man is?

Brandon Fender (01:12:49):

Definitely part of it. You know, you've got to be careful with that too. When we look at what's part of being a man — that's changed from generation to generation. If you're talking about the knuckle-dragging generation — you go to where you don't talk about how you feel, you harness everything. It's bottled up. And, you know, when I look at my dad, my grandpa — who's a Korean War veteran — okay, how many of those guys actually went to therapy? None of them. You know, then who were creating generational trauma? And generational trauma, right. So looking at — to me — what creates a well-rounded man — the ability to understand that the things that make him a man are there. He's got to keep it. They have an awareness that it's there, pull it out when needed, and also be someone who is emotionally intelligent. And, you know, if you look at like the four pillars of resilience or the foundation of it — you know, mental, social, spiritual, psychological — if you're not well-rounded in all four domains, life will throw you a curveball and it will show you where your weaknesses are. Which we need every now and then. We need to know where our weaknesses are to kind of put some welds in our armor. And I think about being just well-rounded. I don't want to be — because for a long time I was that guy that held everything in. And when it came out, it was not — I was not someone you wanted to be around. I had a hairline trigger and was very violent and angry and walked around with so much stuff inside me for so long that it almost made me take my life. Yeah. So my outlook on what a well-rounded man is today versus 15 years ago was very different. Because it's not just about me — it's about my family, it's about the people that I surround myself with, it's about the people that I affect on a daily basis. Like it's going to affect change, and it's going to affect them differently one way or another.

Justin McMillen (01:16:01):

What do you think the world or America today misunderstands about men?

Brandon Fender (01:16:10):

What does the world misunderstand about men? Well, we're very emotional creatures, but in a different kind of way than a female. Right? It's the same way as if I'm sitting here watching a Hallmark movie with the wife, and something happens and she's crying and she's looking at me — I'm not crying. So kind of built different, right? But yeah, I think, you know, first of all — I'm... I know I'm emotional. I'll be the first to tell you. Like, I wear my heart on my sleeve. I'm emotional. But also, I think the burden that men carry every single day — of being a provider, being a protector, everything that goes along with it — it's heavy. And we're human, we're going to make mistakes. It's a lot to carry, especially when you're affecting and changing people's lives every single day. It's a heavy damn burden to carry — when you're talking about bills, the kids, the wife, everything at work — it's heavy. So if I'm not doing the things I need to do as a man, first and foremost, for me — it's going to affect everybody.

Justin McMillen (01:17:29):

You know, I agree with that. And I agree with — the men are emotional, but it's different. I heard somewhere once that women, when they experience emotions, it will come and go faster, but men — it'll stay there longer and it'll be felt in a deeper way, it'll have more of a profound impact.

Brandon Fender (01:17:55):

I agree with that.

Justin McMillen (01:17:55):

Yeah. It's like — yeah. I mean, emotion will cause a man to kill. Men kill themselves more than women.

Brandon Fender (01:18:25):

Yeah. We are built different for sure. And I think society doesn't understand that. I think we've also — society's gotten to a place where men run away from discomfort. What do you mean by that? It means that we'd rather sit on the couch and eat ranch Bugles than put ourselves in an uncomfortable situation. Right? Society's built now... The world's built where we can sit on the couch, order Uber Eats, order movies, do whatever I want to do from my phone from the couch, you know? So men are not going out and doing the things that we used to do to provide for the family.

Justin McMillen (01:18:51):

You know, what's the deal with that in terms of just — I mean, society in general seems like we're chasing comfort.

Brandon Fender (01:19:18):

It's like comfort, comfort, comfort all the time. You see that.

Justin McMillen (01:19:18):

Yeah. See it. And it also is going to show some of our — when I think about it, it's like — when I look at a 20 year old man to, you know, a 28 year old man today who's comfort, comfort, comfort — let's say, you know, another world war pops off. Like, we're going to be — it's like peeling back the layers on me. Like we got you — right? Gazing out, doing the things that we used to do. You know, running through the woods and getting scared and climbing trees, building forts. Now they're sitting there with a pair of headphones on.

Brandon Fender (01:19:53):

Yeah. Playing video games.

Justin McMillen (01:19:53):

Yeah. And it's awful.

Brandon Fender (01:20:17):

It really is awful. It's a societal thing though. It's anywhere in the Western world. I think that's — I remember when we were younger and used to see kids playing outside, bikes everywhere. I guess you see a little bit of the e-bike stuff now, but not like it used to be.

Justin McMillen (01:20:17):

No.

Brandon Fender (01:20:17):

We still leave our garage doors open, everything. You know, I got a call the other day from my neighbor and said, hey, your garage door's open. I was like, yeah, this is my house. It's okay. Somebody runs up in here — it's going to be a bad day for them. But going back to when we were kids, the garage door stayed open. You know, the vehicle doors — the keys were in there. Yeah. Didn't even lock our doors at night. I don't think we did either.

Justin McMillen (01:21:00):

You know what's crazy about that too is that crime statistics were worse then. Did you know that? Violent crime was worse than — yeah, we have the numbers now. You wouldn't know it, because of the way the news reports. I was talking to somebody about this the other day and they're like, no way, no way, no way. And I'm like, look it up. And they looked it up. And you can see it on a graph that across the country there's less murder, there's less violence. It's actually in the same range — it could have changed in the last two years, that was a two years ago conversation — but we were in the same range as like the 1950s.

Brandon Fender (01:21:38):

Really?

Justin McMillen (01:21:38):

Yeah. So it's safer now. But people are more afraid, which is crazy.

Brandon Fender (01:21:38):

Yeah. But — the only reason I — the only thing I can think of that causes that — is that it's got to be because we also only had, you know, the news at 6:00 or whatever. The newspaper.

Justin McMillen (01:21:38):

Yeah, I think the messages — like, everyone's sitting in their house terrified, thinking someone's going to hurt them.

Brandon Fender (01:22:03):

Yeah. But I mean, everything — kidnapping. Yeah. You think every child was getting plucked off the street right now? And the statistics don't say that. That's so —

Justin McMillen (01:22:03):

Yeah. You probably don't believe me. You should look it up.

Brandon Fender (01:22:03):

I believe it. Yeah. It's sad. I'm sad.

Justin McMillen (01:22:03):

Yeah, yeah. I want — I want my daughter to be able to grow up in a world where she feels safe enough to go run the neighborhood. And I can relax when she comes home. Yeah. You know, and unfortunately I don't feel like those days are — yeah. The reason that I got into learning about this was because — you know, I have four children, and the big one was there was a film that came out — Sound of Freedom.

Brandon Fender (01:22:51):

Oh, yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:22:51):

Yeah, a lot of people went to see it. And it was like child human trafficking and kids are getting stolen off the street and all this stuff. And then I looked up the numbers of child abductions — and it was like at 300 or 350 million people. I mean, I know not all of them... Those are kids. It was like 350,000 child abductions. But then if you look at how many of those were from family members...

Brandon Fender (01:23:10):

No.

Justin McMillen (01:23:10):

Yeah. The vast majority. The number of actual strangers abducting kids was like — like, I don't want to say — I think it was like a few hundred. Like, really, across the whole country. Right. So statistically, should we be afraid of it? It's actually tiny. Now, you could argue that because kids aren't playing outside anymore, maybe that's why no one's abducting them.

Brandon Fender (01:23:32):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:23:32):

But the reason I looked it up is because — I thought first, I was like, I don't want to go see this movie because I think it's going to disturb me as a father of four. Yeah. And then I was like, well, maybe this is something I should know. And so I dug into it, and it's just — the facts don't support...

Brandon Fender (01:23:50):

Well, there's a caveat though. Because a lot of the — I mean, I actually interviewed somebody who does human trafficking intervention, like he's all over the world. I think most of it is immigrants, and, you know, there's a whole market — yeah, in the Third World. But as far as like our kids getting picked up off the street — I don't think it's as common as what we believe. But still, as a dad, you're like, yeah, yeah. And there was — this is a — I live in Nashville now, and it's a very big hub for human trafficking, believe it or not. You know, every state gets graded on how well they're doing to combat human trafficking. Child trafficking. And Tennessee, Nashville in particular always gets an A. But it was also one of the most covered up, you know, because you don't want to put a bad light on Music City USA, you know? So there was — and my wife was at Target, and she came out and there were, you know, these little stickers or markers they put on vehicles — Zip ties or whatever it may be. So these markers on the back of her car, and she didn't notice it till she got home and was looking into it, and she started digging into it. And I called a buddy at the police department and they said — you know, people said at Target, right at this particular place in Nashville — there's quick access to the highway and stuff. And they're marking single women — they're getting on their vehicles going into Target. Well yeah. And I've heard newer stories just in the area about that. So that — I mean, that definitely flies in the face of what I said.

Justin McMillen (01:25:35):

Yeah. So it's there. And it's there and...

Brandon Fender (01:25:35):

But you can't be — you can't be paralyzed. But because evil does exist.

Justin McMillen (01:25:35):

Oh, for sure, for sure. We'll have to get Luke — Luke's our producer — up to get him to look that up. Make sure that I'm incorrect around those numbers.

Brandon Fender (01:25:35):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:25:35):

Fact checking.

Brandon Fender (01:25:35):

Yeah.

Justin McMillen (01:25:35):

That's scary. That's scary. That's like my worst — you know, the only thing I'm afraid of is something happened to my children. My wife? Yeah. It's literally — I was thinking about it. I'm like, am I — I mean, I think I'm afraid of dying in terms of leaving them. But when all fears lead back to like something around them, you know — I can't imagine anything.

Brandon Fender (01:26:26):

Yeah. That — that's the only thing that scares me. When I think about something happening to them. Everything else is like, it's pain or it's this, it's a problem. But that is like — I don't even know what I would do. I don't know. I see — no. I'd f***ing lose my mind.

Justin McMillen (01:26:49):

Yeah. Nothing. A video of a guy the other day — he lost his wife and his youngest kid in a car accident. So it was him and the son, and he was talking about — and he did videos like, early on, you know, kind of documenting everything he was going through. And I'm watching this — I'm just thinking, like, the strength that this guy has. And I'm thinking, like, would I be that strong? I like to think so. But, you know, if there's one thing that could break me, it's losing my family. And...

Brandon Fender (01:27:34):

Yeah. I think about weird shit like that too, that I probably shouldn't. But, you know, that's there.

Justin McMillen (01:27:58):

Yeah. I don't — I was talking to, you know, Clayton, my brother. Yeah. I was talking to him about this. And he — we were talking about imagining bad scenarios as a way to feel a stronger connection to people that you love. And I think it's okay to think about that stuff. Makes you put down your damn phone when your kids are trying to hang out with you, or... Yeah, you know, it makes you — you know, maybe things are going well with your wife, and you — and it's like, man. And you just — if you actually felt that day what it would feel like if something happened to her, then it's like she's screaming in your face and you look at her like, I love you so much. She's like, why are you smiling?

Brandon Fender (01:28:38):

Yeah. You know, I don't tell her I think about stuff like that, but I do. Yeah, I do. I think it's, you know, kind of human nature to think about these things. If I was put in this situation, how would I react? Would I be strong enough? Yeah. That's probably my biggest fear, without a doubt — anything happening to the people I love and I'm in charge of caring for. There's nothing I'm more afraid of than that.

Justin McMillen (01:29:05):

But this is — yeah, that's depressing. Right? What else? What else do we talk about? What's going on in your life?

Brandon Fender (01:29:05):

I just had another kid. Another daughter.

Justin McMillen (01:29:05):

So two daughters now.

Brandon Fender (01:29:05):

Yeah. She is 12 weeks old. Scout Freedom.

Justin McMillen (01:29:05):

You named her — it's only fitting. Obviously you have very clear — maybe blue eyes.

Brandon Fender (01:29:05):

Nice.

Justin McMillen (01:29:05):

So I'm in the trenches right now of not sleeping and entertaining a toddler.

Brandon Fender (01:29:38):

Wow. Which is awesome.

Brandon Fender (01:31:44):

So my wife — she's from Orange County, right? When I met her, one of the first things she told me was, get me out of here, take me to the South. I said, well, okay. So she moved to Nashville with me. And, you know, she's not used to the country life. So, you know, I think the first time — when we first moved there, she called me and there were some deer in the backyard. She called me and said, can I get out of the car? Are they going to attack me? I said, don't worry — the only ones that have antlers and are in heat, they might try to get you. But don't worry about the other ones. She sat in her car for like ten more minutes.

Justin McMillen (01:32:33):

Oh my gosh, so awesome.

Brandon Fender (01:32:50):

I'm trying to slowly get her into the southern routine of things.

Justin McMillen (01:32:50):

How long you guys been out there?

Brandon Fender (01:32:50):

Right at three years. Three years, and we moved out there at Thanksgiving — for work. So I run a treatment facility, work with a lot of veterans and first responders. Moved to Nashville three years ago and didn't know anybody. And very blessed to be where I am now. You know, and I got a very good group of people around me to help me and keep me going, because I'm that guy that goes 100 miles an hour through a wall and might miss some details here and there. So I got some Air Force guys that keep me in line. The analytical types.

Justin McMillen (01:33:34):

You guys are working for you?

Brandon Fender (01:33:34):

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny — everybody that works with me actually went through the program as well. So it's cool to see them be where they're at in their life now and remembering the first day that they came in, or when I went to pick them up from the hospital. During the worst time of their life. And I got one guy in particular who — he's got two kids, and, you know, to see him be the father he is now, the husband he is — you know, that's kind of what it's all about. You know, there's no greater purpose than to help somebody. And I know that because I was in that situation — I was in the worst times of my life.

Justin McMillen (01:34:26):

And somebody came in and took the time to help me, man. It's — I think about, you know, people know who you are. I mean, you're a pretty well known guy. And I think you're making a huge impact in Tennessee. And I think you're on your way to completely reworking the whole state — which is just amazing. And I wonder how much of that comes from you having gone through all this stuff yourself, you know. Do you think you would be as effective at doing all this? 01;35;03;11 - 01;35;20;22 Brandon Fender I mean, how much of you are you bringing to the table? And is that part of the secret sauce? I wouldn't say it's a secret sauce.

Brandon Fender (01:35:20):

I think, you know, when I was sitting on the other side of that — sitting in front of somebody being authentic, you know — and I'm not your typical therapist. I swear a lot.

Justin McMillen (01:35:20):

And I got tattoos and I got — you know. I think just being authentic with people and being real with them goes a long way. You know, when people get to know you as a person versus a label — you know, what society tells you — an addict or an alcoholic. Letting someone into your heart and know who you are has a lot of value.

Brandon Fender (01:35:45):

We are just being real with people. You know, and, you know, we had a visit from RFK Jr. a few months ago, which was really awesome to have him come into the facility. And, you know, it's my baby. It's something I'm very proud of. You know, I started this — have a broom closet basically — built it into something that's very special. And, you know, him coming to the facility and seeing what we're doing — obviously we have a big physical aspect to what we do. And him walking in and seeing everything that lines up with his values and, you know, making healthy America. So that was a really big win for us.

Justin McMillen (01:36:39):

Yeah. That's a big deal. I mean, I think what was most amazing about that is that he basically stood next to you and said that we want to see this everywhere around the country.

Brandon Fender (01:36:39):

Yeah. I think a lot of people's jaws hit the floor.

Justin McMillen (01:36:39):

Yeah. Which puts it — makes sense. Yeah. You know, I've known you for five, six years. Yeah. And I watched you go from basically committing to figuring out how to pull yourself out of the hell you were in — to doing that. How much can I talk about this?

Brandon Fender (01:37:03):

Yeah, as much as you want.

Justin McMillen (01:37:27):

Okay. Yeah. So when I met you — I think you had a cane, or you weren't walking well. No — there were even conversations around you getting your leg amputated at the time. And we didn't go into this earlier, but, you know, you had some injuries. Some of it's obvious with that American flag you got going there. Yeah. And I watched you completely rebuild yourself physically to the point where you and I ended up doing a half Ironman together.

Brandon Fender (01:37:50):

The two of them.

Justin McMillen (01:37:50):

Yeah, and a marathon.

Brandon Fender (01:37:50):

And a marathon that was not very well trained for.

Justin McMillen (01:37:50):

No, no. That was a great one. Much chaos. Yeah, we weren't — that all came to me. We won't say names, but. So you can tell the story.

Brandon Fender (01:38:20):

You'll meet it. We'll tell it. But yeah, you can go ahead. Just don't bring up... Yeah. So I had a guy that I was working with come to me early on as he was getting well, and he was about 60, 70 pounds overweight. He said, hey, Hacksaw, I want to run a marathon. I want to do it in the next five months. I said, okay, if you want to do that, I'll do it with you. In the back of my head I'm hoping I hope you don't f***ing really want to do this. I'm not a runner. So we sign up for it and everything. And we're ready. And, you know, he's walking around in crop tops and, you know, jogging to the end of the block and saying he's ready. I'm like, Holy shit, we really gotta do this.

Justin McMillen (01:39:05):

Or — the — you could say something about him too. Yeah. So this is one of the most interesting characters we've had around here. He was — he definitely was eccentric. Right? Not quite — it was a little different. But an amazing guy. You know, he had a lot of great things about him.

Brandon Fender (01:39:39):

The tattoos on his eyeballs.

Justin McMillen (01:39:39):

You know, this was not the most common type of person we have around our circles. But certainly one of them — rough around the edges, but a really sweet person. And yeah, I remember we were both like, man, if this guy just turned into a running fool — like, that might be the secret to this whole —

Brandon Fender (01:39:39):

It's long-term recovery, right? So there's always — it's like run for it — it's kind of thing. If we can just keep him running.

Justin McMillen (01:39:39):

Yeah. And...

Brandon Fender (01:40:07):

Yeah. And then he backed out last minute.

Justin McMillen (01:40:07):

Backed out.

Brandon Fender (01:40:07):

Right. But yeah, last minute he had an episode, and, you know. So the next day it was me and you, and I rolled my ankle — I thought I broke it — probably two or three weeks beforehand, so I wasn't running at all. I was lucky to walk. I was like, well, we signed up. We'll do it now.

Justin McMillen (01:40:27):

And yeah, I'm not a runner. Yeah, as you saw.

Brandon Fender (01:40:27):

And I'll say this — we weren't first, but we weren't last. But we finished with the guy on the golf cart coming behind us picking up the cones. And like the last six, eight miles, the Special Olympics folks were with us. And at this point I'm hurting.

Justin McMillen (01:40:44):

Yeah. My leg was in bad shape. And hell — I think you were trying to talk to me and I'm just like, no.

Brandon Fender (01:40:44):

Yeah. You gave me a warning before that — like, your pep talks and your positive attitude are probably not going to be a good thing.

Justin McMillen (01:41:05):

Yeah. Don't get offended. I'm not really going to be feeling it.

Brandon Fender (01:41:05):

So the last six miles — the Special Olympics folks, you know, they're smiling and I'm like, how the hell are they? You know, they're overweight and not in the best shape and they're just having at it. And they're trying to tell jokes with me. And, you know, I got them telling jokes.

Justin McMillen (01:41:29):

I got you up there like dancing or some shit.

Brandon Fender (01:41:29):

And I got the guy on the golf cart behind me picking up the cones. And yeah, we finished. And, you know, everybody's over there partying and having fun, and I was like, I gotta take a golf cart to the car. I couldn't even walk to the car.

Justin McMillen (01:41:50):

Yeah, so.

Brandon Fender (01:41:50):

But shit. Yeah. Box checked.

Justin McMillen (01:41:50):

And none of us — I mean, I wasn't running either. I don't think I'd run more than a couple miles for months. Yeah. I mean, I was definitely trained for the next one. Yeah, yeah. It was ugly, but it was good. I'm glad I did that with you. I was stressing the night before because you're the kind of person that I think even if you're broke — you'd keep going.

Brandon Fender (01:42:02):

And so I was trying to figure out how to get you to bow out rather than destroy yourself.

Justin McMillen (01:42:02):

If I had to — I had a whole plan in my head.

Brandon Fender (01:42:02):

Yeah. I think there's a difference. And that mindset has been very valuable for me in a lot of ways for a long time. But it was also one of the things that really held me back in life. You know, this goes back to feeling like I didn't do enough in combat, to breaking myself off physically.

Justin McMillen (01:42:02):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (01:42:27):

You know, having 35 surgeries now. And yeah, I remember when I was, you know, going through my stuff — coming around the trenches — and I had a bone infection in my femur, and this was right at the start of Covid, and I was in the hospital for like ten days, you know, it turned into a virus — had no visitors. And I've carried that through to today. You know, it's been very beneficial. And, you know, I always had a good work ethic — and a little common sense will take you a long way in today's world, which is something I think we're lacking.

Justin McMillen (01:43:14):

Yeah. But to be fair, you got more than those two things. You definitely have those two things. But you're also — you know, I was telling someone about you the other night, and my favorite thing — you gotta do this, 'cause you haven't done it in a while — is when you call me and you're in your head and you're physically hurting. You're like, Justin, I'm not doing good. And then, like, he started getting worked up. You, like, start talking to yourself and like, damn it. And then you just go into this whole thing, and it's like, suddenly you're all fired up. And it's like, Holy shit. And I'm literally — I feel like I'm watching a guy go through this entire transformation of taking something that's pain, that's like kind of got him. And I feel like I'm just on the other end of the phone just listening, as you're going through it and you're doing it in front of me. And then you, like, somehow harness it. It becomes your energy. And then you change. And you've been doing that for years.

Brandon Fender (01:44:25):

Yeah. I think my relationship to it — first of all, when I do that — maybe some undiagnosed borderline personality stuff going on. I'm kidding. Okay. But yeah, I've had to really look at my relationship to the pain, look at how I use it. You know, for a long time — I'd let it consume me, let it run my life. And, you know, I think a lot of it changed when I was in the hospital. And I just spoke about — redefining my relationship to it. And, you know, pain is pain. It's like, how much power am I giving it? And you can use it and let it consume me and lay down and die.

Justin McMillen (01:44:51):

Yeah.

Brandon Fender (01:45:15):

Or you can use it as motivation. And that's one thing that I've had to do — use it as motivation in a healthy way today. Because I used it in the complete opposite way for a long time. How much do you think — that's a question for you — I think, how much do you think pain — what role does pain play in substance use disorder? Yeah, I mean there's numerous — you know, especially coming from the military background. You hear about it. And you know, to be fair — I've lost more guys to overdose and suicide than I did in combat. You know, it's something that doesn't affect one certain demographic anymore. But countless stories of very successful people, guys in the military — get an injury, you know, prescription to pain pills, continue that prescription for a few months, get physically dependent. You take that away — they're going to outsource it. You're going to search for something else, you know. And that's what happened to me. After going through all my surgeries, I got the pain medication, which led to a bad heroin addiction for five or six years. But to answer your question — I hear it every week. You know, very successful guys who had an injury, who was overprescribed, and they just went the heroin route, fentanyl.

Justin McMillen (01:46:46):

It's not just physical pain though, right? Like, addiction is about psychological pain, emotional pain, which —

Brandon Fender (01:46:46):

Yeah. And opiates can knock all those out in one go, right?

Justin McMillen (01:46:46):

Yeah. I mean, for me it wasn't even touching the physical stuff. It was more about not having to remember everything else. It was numbing all my emotions, right. Because I didn't want to feel all the things I was going through. So when they started giving me pain medication, I was taking it and I'm like, Holy shit, here's the cure. Right. I can take this little pill that the doctor is giving me — so it's legal — and I don't have to deal with all that other shit that I buried for years.

Brandon Fender (01:47:10):

So.

Justin McMillen (01:47:10):

Yeah. So if you're not taking pain medication anymore and you've been sober a long time now, is the pain gone? The physical pain, all of it?

Brandon Fender (01:47:30):

No. Yeah. One thing I always said when I started this journey was — one thing I was searching for was to be at peace. My heart to be at peace in my heart. And am I completely there? To be honest — no. But I'm a hell of a lot farther than I was. You know, the physical pain is always going to be there. It's always going to be there. As soon as I wake up in the morning, there's always something going on. But once again — and I'm sure my wife is tired of hearing me complain and bitch some days when it's bad. But...

Justin McMillen (01:48:15):

Yeah, I can use it. You know, I think that's — I think you might be kind of pointing out exactly why you're so — one of the main reasons why you're so effective at what you do. So addiction and substance use is directly tied to pain — people want to avoid how they think or feel.

Brandon Fender (01:48:15):

Right.

Justin McMillen (01:48:18):

Physically feel. And then you've got you — who is in chronic pain and you've opted to remain sober as a necessity. And so now you have a relationship with pain. And so what I see on the outside is — your relationship with pain is teaching. You're using your relationship with pain and your understanding of it to teach other people how to have a relationship with pain that doesn't destroy them.

Brandon Fender (01:49:02):

Yeah. For sure. You know, and I wouldn't change anything that I've been through because it's made me who I am today. It's given me the tools, the motivation to want to do that.

Justin McMillen (01:49:02):

Yeah. You know, and just be relatable to people. How do you get people to be — because here's the thing. Like, pain is one of the dimensions of health now in hospitals, right. So you know, anybody — I mean, there's tons and tons of veterans that have a very justifiable reason to go get a prescription filled. Yeah. How do you convince somebody that that's not a good idea and that they should just feel what they're feeling or go through it?

Brandon Fender (01:49:33):

Well, the first thing is — you know, one of my good friends that helped me out in Nashville — he's a double amputee. So a guy walks in and sees Joey and myself, like, Holy shit, if they can do this, I can. And I've heard that countless times — guys say that. You know, all it takes a lot of times is that one person that you can relate to. And when they walk in, they see what healthy looks like. Like, I want what that guy has. If he can do it and he's got this going on, I can do it.

Justin McMillen (01:50:17):

You're sort of like the ultimate model for that.

Brandon Fender (01:50:17):

Yeah. And you can't — you know, everybody's situation is different, right? But I think it's just being a good role model. Modeling — you know, doctors will figure it out now, but I'm a hell of a lot further than I was six years ago.

Justin McMillen (01:50:48):

Yeah. You've come a long way since when we first started — the story of your life — just running amok, and I'm like an asshole, going into the Marine Corps still running amok. Yeah. Then having the reality of war, and then realizing the real gravity of life, and fighting pain — you know, all of that. And then ruminating on that pain for years, destroying yourself around it, finding your way out of it. And there wasn't enough for you — to find your way out of it. You had to go back and bring as many other people out of it as you possibly could.

Brandon Fender (01:51:06):

But you know, that's also what keeps me going. You know, what I do doesn't feel like a job. It's part of who I am now, you know. So it gets me out of bed in the morning. You know, you ask any veteran that got out — not on their terms, or just got out — and, you know, you take your uniform off, you lose your sense of identity, your sense of purpose. We're very purpose-driven people. So we're always looking for what's next, what's next. Right. Like, we set a goal, we hear it, we hit it. We don't take a second to stop and have an awareness. And so from there I don't know what's next. So I've had to slow down in that sense. But it's also, you know, given me a purpose. It's one of those things that comes in — and I remember the first day that I came in and started this, you know, and I sit down with everybody that comes in that first day and I tell them the same story.

Justin McMillen (01:52:16):

I remember when I was sitting there. You want to give a plug for where you — I mean, people know I have affiliation to.

Brandon Fender (01:52:16):

So yeah. So Treehouse Recovery in Nashville, Tennessee. Yeah. We run an IOP and PHP program with supportive housing. You know, obviously work with a lot of high performers, veterans, first responders, and anybody really. You know, I say we work with anybody — from the special operations community to someone that's been in their mom's basement playing video games and smoking meth for years. You know, everybody in between.

Justin McMillen (01:52:37):

Okay. So all right, well we'll put in the notes here and just how to reach you, so that there's anyone — listen in if they find it interesting. They can reach out. Okay, so what's — we got to close this out here. We've been going at it for a while. But what — what's your — where are you headed? Where's this all going for you? You see yourself being a poster child for recovery, for your community, or what do you...

Brandon Fender (01:53:03):

It's not about being a poster child. I think it's, you know — my — you know, it's all about the team. You know, I couldn't do any of this without the team that's behind me, the team that I have in my corner. But I think in Tennessee and all across the country, having people really look at what addiction is — and we're going to really have people looking at — and changing the way that it's spoken about, treated, and everything in between.

Justin McMillen (01:53:34):

Nice, nice. I love it. You have any thoughts for our next guest? So something that we like to do is leave a little tidbit for the guy that's coming after you. So what's a thing you could offer up to somebody else sitting in the same seat you are? A little words of wisdom.

Brandon Fender (01:54:01):

You don't know who it's going to be. So for life — patience. Your target. We get so focused on the big picture aspect of life that we forget what's right in front of us. You know, I can't get to Z before hitting A and B. So — patience.