Transcript

0:00:00 Intro Montage

[…]

0:01:33 Intro

I am the experiment. You can write your own story. Not stop trying and don't give into the fear.

0:01:38 Robert Mo

I enjoy going to work. It keeps me busy. There's always something. I just, as you know, came from something, you know?

0:01:48 Justin McMillen

Where'd you come from?

0:01:50 Robert Mo

Can I get into it?

0:01:52 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah.

0:01:52 Robert Mo

It's an ACA block, which is against clinical advice. Trying to let somebody know that they are better off sticking to the program and not leaving early.

When somebody comes into treatment — not just our treatment, but any treatment — there's going to be an activated stress state. And that's kind of what I'm battling. So somebody will, to their core, want to get better. And, you know, they have consequences. Their life's upside down, money problems, relationships, you know, possible jail time. There's a number of consequences.

And a lot of internal stuff, too. They feel terrible shame. They just want to feel good. So they have every reason to come to a place like this and to give it their all. But the disease is still there, and that disease does not want them here. And that's what I'm battling. So, yeah, I was just talking to somebody and we were successful.

So he's going to stick it out.

0:02:57 Justin McMillen

So just so I understand — I think, you know, what you're saying is that there are people coming to treatment and then they suddenly think, oh my gosh, they get into a panic state and they don't want to be here.

0:03:08 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:03:09 Justin McMillen

And then you're blocking that.

0:03:11 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:03:12 Justin McMillen

And that's blocking in ACA.

0:03:13 Robert Mo

So yeah.

0:03:15 Justin McMillen

So is there an art to that?

0:03:16 Robert Mo

Yeah. I just actually built out a whole training on it. You got to be calm. If you get activated, it's going to activate them, and we need them calm. So what's going on in the brain is we call it going limbic, right? We say this all the time, that kind of terminology. So and so is going limbic.

And what that means is that the survival part of the brain has been activated. And what will relieve it is to remove the individual out of a healthy environment and into an unhealthy environment, and then that person is vulnerable to relapse. So, yeah, you want to stay calm because if you're calm, they're going to feel that energy.

You want to hit them with some realities and truth, because what we need is that prefrontal cortex to start getting strong. And that's really one of the foundational elements of treatment. But right there in the moment, you need to be able to do that. So you need to shift them from limbic system over here to prefrontal — like talking about physically in the brain.

0:04:27 Justin McMillen

Yeah yeah yeah yeah. In the brain. All right.

0:04:29 Robert Mo

And you need to hit them with the forward thinking that they're unable to access at that point. So what does that do? Well, once they realize that there's nothing but love and support here, and that at some point they wanted this, and that by them staying here it will produce the result that they want —

You know, forward thinking — in the moment, if you're limbic, it doesn't exist. So it's our job to paint that picture for them.

0:05:13 Justin McMillen

I see. Yeah.

0:05:14 Robert Mo

And there's a number of other things too, like little things. You know, you don't put a guy in the corner of the room and talk to him, because that's going to also activate that stress state even more.

0:05:21 Justin McMillen

You know, you — a primal thing or something.

0:05:24 Robert Mo

Yeah, absolutely.

0:05:25 Justin McMillen

You want to close the door. We'll take guys out, take them to the beach. I think we've talked about this before. And I want to keep — we're coming off a little tangent, but it's good. I think what you're talking about in terms of one part of the brain not working well, and then another part of the brain sort of driving the limbic system, which is all about survival —

And then of course the brain thinks, if I don't listen to this, I'm going to die.

0:05:55 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah.

0:05:56 Justin McMillen

So it's pretty crazy. And then you've got this frontal cortex, and you know what it does — forward thinking and logic and reasoning, empathy. And then pushing it to activate by asking questions and things is a fascinating thing to watch.

0:06:15 Robert Mo

Yeah. It's very — I mean, seeing guys do this is incredible because, one, it saves lives.

0:06:22 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:06:22 Robert Mo

Because people that leave treatment because of this state, they're basically impaired.

0:06:34 Justin McMillen

Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

0:06:35 Robert Mo

They're like zombies pretty much. Not — I'm not calling them psycho zombies, but it's like you can see it on them. You know, the animalistic side comes out, and maybe they can feel it in themselves.

Sometimes they can't. They've convinced themselves like, no, I'm actually going to go and I'm going to get a job, you know, and I'm going to mend things in the relationship and it's going to be all good. And it's like, no, no, that's — yeah, that's not going to happen.

0:07:01 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:07:02 Robert Mo

It's some part of their brain that's just trying to get them back to drinking or using again.

0:07:05 Justin McMillen

Yeah. It's scary stuff, man.

0:07:08 Robert Mo

Because if they leave — I mean, addiction kills, you know. So it's literally like, I feel like I have to save this guy's life in the moment, you know? And I'm pretty much going to do whatever it takes.

0:07:23 Justin McMillen

How do you maintain cool and calm, knowing that the consequence of you being able to do that could mean life or death?

0:07:34 Robert Mo

I don't practice — I keep myself healthy, you know. I've done a lot of blocks since I've worked here. And then, I don't know, maybe something spiritual too. You know, something takes over.

0:07:49 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Like I said, it's amazing to watch.

0:07:51 Robert Mo

And then — a typical Tuesday.

0:07:54 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.

And this is — I think for people who don't know — it's part of treatment. Not everybody that comes into treatment is just ready to go out the gate, but then they can get to a place where that sort of activates, like you talked about, and then it requires some sort of external force and somebody who's got skills. I mean, seeing you do this, and watching the guys that you train do this, it's pretty extraordinary.

And seeing it over 12 years and watching you guys getting better at it has been unbelievable.

0:08:45 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:08:46 Justin McMillen

And it's great when — if you're successful, and usually we are — and then fast forward, you know, a handful of months, and having that guy come to you after they read their declarations, which, you know, is part of their graduation ceremony, and they're like, oh man, I'm so glad I didn't leave.

0:08:49 Robert Mo

It's like, yeah, yeah. And you're like, man, I need to keep getting better at this.

0:09:08 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:09:10 Robert Mo

I mean, we're good, but there's always room.

0:09:15 Justin McMillen

Of course, of course.

Do you have any — so a lot of people will listen to this who potentially work in this space or even who are going through addiction themselves. Do you have any words of advice for somebody that's trying to — let me paint a picture for you.

Let's say somebody is not in treatment. It's a husband and a wife, and the husband has committed to the wife that he's not going to drink, and they've made it a couple of days. They were gung ho out the gate. But then on day three she can tell that he's starting to — that shift is happening. She can see it in his eyes that he's wanting to go back. What would you say to a person who's trying to support somebody that's going through that? What would you tell them to do?

0:09:50 Robert Mo

Call me.

0:09:50 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Well, they say — if they can't call you, is there — I know, I know that's almost unfair, because this is something that you've honed over years. One of many things that you do, and we'll talk about other things too. But yeah, I think a lot of people are looking for, you know, simple — not simple, but solutions to some of these problems. And, you know, things that a lot of people want to know.

0:10:16 Robert Mo

Yeah. I mean, so I said call me, right. But it is helpful — doesn't have to necessarily be me — to get somebody who knows what they're doing, a professional involved. But in the moment, a few days of staying off drinking, that brain is still very, very much impaired. So it's a difficult task.

And that's why treatment interventions are so valuable, because if you're actually in a facility, the odds of that person acting on the craving lowers a lot. Substantially. But a craving isn't forever. I would say find a distraction in that moment, you know? And then after the craving passes, it's an opportunity to almost debrief and assess, you know, what did we just do?

How did I feel? I can guarantee if they make it across to the other side without having the drink, they're going to be so relieved. And there's a lot of value that can be pulled from a scenario like that, and you want to apply that to future situations, you know? So in a pinch, distract yourself — go for a walk, lift some weights, watch a movie, whatever it might be. And know that it'll come to an end.

0:11:42 Justin McMillen

Yes. It passes. It always passes.

0:11:46 Robert Mo

If it didn't pass, no one would ever make it. You and I wouldn't be here right now. We'd be doing something else.

0:11:53 Justin McMillen

Yeah. That's interesting. That's something George says, too, you know — like the amount of time that somebody will spend in that state is not that long, actually.

And I wonder what the science says around — because being in that, would you say that when the person is limbic, they're like in a state of arousal?

0:12:18 Robert Mo

Almost. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

0:12:19 Justin McMillen

So the body can't sustain arousal for a very long time. Okay.

0:12:24 Robert Mo

So at some point it's going to have to come back down.

0:12:29 Justin McMillen

It always comes back down.

0:12:31 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:12:32 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I screamed at the guys in addiction Ed — this shows, Pat — you know, the self-talk. Remind yourself it'll pass. It always passes. So you could just handcuff yourself to a bed for like two hours.

0:12:41 Robert Mo

Yeah. I mean that would be — probably we shouldn't recommend that.

0:12:42 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to get in trouble.

So — okay. So this is one thing you do, but you also oversee — I mean, I've watched you over the last several years hire doctors, medical directors, you hire MFTs, you hire CADC counselors, and everything in between. You know, you're basically all things related to running a treatment center.

You're overseeing hiring. So how — as far as hiring — how do you know if someone's got a knack for doing this work? Is it their training? What is it? What's the recipe for a good addiction clinician?

0:13:20 Robert Mo

I mean, I'd say it's a combination of several things.

You know, so — you talked about education and credentialing. That's important. You need to understand the clinical jargon. You need to understand different therapeutic interventions. And you really need to understand addiction. Now, I'm not going to say that everybody who works in treatment needs to have gone through their own recovery process. But I think it helps because you really understand — like we just talked about going limbic — going limbic as it relates to use, normies...

0:14:19 Justin McMillen

All right. Normies. What is a normie?

0:14:22 Robert Mo

For people who —

0:14:24 Justin McMillen

Yeah, I don't know. And I hate using that term, but I'm going to —

0:14:26 Robert Mo

A normie is somebody who does not have the disease. So a normie is the person who, today — today is a Tuesday at 5:00 — can go to the local bar and have a drink and be fine and make it to work and not end up in handcuffs.

So if you do have the disease, you know what it feels like, and you know how that voice is screaming in your head as you get out of here. These people, even though they're safe — in fact, the safest people that you could possibly have in your life in that moment — you view them as unsafe.

And if you've been through that experience, you know the best way to block an ACA or even just to treat that person, you know, and really fight that disease of addiction. So I'm not going to say everybody has to go through that. But I think it is helpful. And people who have been through their own traumatic experiences, people who have gone through suffering — I think they make some of the best healers, you know.

Right. Like anything that is — because they know what that pain feels like, they've made it through the other side. They've experienced that. And this isn't related to just substance abuse recovery, but they've recovered in any way that they needed to recover. And usually when you do that, when you've, you know, looked at death and terrible feelings and terrible external life going on, and you've gone through all those experiences, but then you've changed —

And because you've changed, your life has improved, you can kind of get this fire under your ass and you just kind of want to spread it to everybody. You know, like you asked me earlier, why do you do what you do? There's a lot of reasons, and that's part of it. I want people to feel better.

0:16:26 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:16:27 Robert Mo

You know, I don't want to see people suffer. And I'm good at it. I've helped people who have been through awful, awful things. And, you know, they'll continue to probably go through some awful things because that's life. But they'll know how to work through it, you know?

0:16:45 Justin McMillen

So the recipe for a good counselor is empathy through having your own experience?

0:16:51 Robert Mo

I think that's a big part of it.

0:16:53 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. And then obviously education. But that's a huge piece.

0:16:58 Robert Mo

That makes sense. You know, I think — what do they say — like a certain percentage of the therapeutic relationship is based on rapport?

0:17:09 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:17:10 Robert Mo

Do you know what the number is?

0:17:12 Justin McMillen

I don't know what the number is, but it's like half — the outcome is dependent upon that, I think. Over half.

0:17:16 Robert Mo

Yeah. I'd say it's more than half. And if you don't have that drive, you're probably not going to be able to build that rapport. You actually have to give a shit about the person sitting in front of you, and feel that, and have that experience where it's like, I want this guy to get better.

Because when you do that, you know, you're going to really give that guy everything you got. How do you know when, if someone has that, when you're talking to them or interviewing them?

0:17:48 Justin McMillen

I mean, they'll usually bring it up. They want to give back. And also, I usually know enough about the individual.

And, you know, we have an expression around here: behaviors never lie. Usually I already know that this person's, you know, not getting paid for this, they're not on the clock, but they're already out there helping people, you know, and they're not even reporting it to me. I get information all day, you know, like, hey, you hear about so-and-so?

We did an intervention and pulled a guy out of a motel the other day and got him into detox. And then, sure enough, you know, a month later, I'm sitting in front of him and he's applying for a job. It's like, all right, that's the kind of guy I want on my team.

0:18:29 Robert Mo

That's crazy. That's really cool.

0:18:30 Justin McMillen

So it's like you're looking for people who are naturally inclined towards this work.

0:18:32 Robert Mo

Yeah. And is that more important than their education at the beginning or does it — I mean, I think so. You could have all the credentials and, listen, education's important — I'm a big supporter of higher education, and I like it when staff seek out more education. But you could have all the letters behind your name in the world, and if you don't have that thing — to where you really want people to live better lives and you're willing to go out there and help them — you're going to be a terrible clinician.

0:19:07 Justin McMillen

Wow. I think that's a really important thing. And I think — yeah, I've never really asked you how you make those decisions, but it makes sense. I mean, it even follows. To be fair — like, and this goes into the thing that we're going to talk about today — you and I both know the first person that ever came through Tree House was like almost 4,000 people ago.

We both know that person, right?

0:19:48 Robert Mo

I think so, yeah. I know that person.

0:19:53 Justin McMillen

And they're still doing well today, are they?

0:19:58 Robert Mo

I haven't talked to them in a while.

0:20:01 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. Well, this all ties into the idea that the best clinicians are ones who've been through it themselves. And I think what makes you so special —

And like I said, you have an insight that other people don't have.

0:20:10 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:20:11 Justin McMillen

Is that your patient — or client — number one?

0:20:12 Robert Mo

You're the first guy.

0:20:26 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:20:28 Robert Mo

And that's not something we've ever really talked about. Yeah. So this is kind of a big deal right here. I've always kept this pretty close to the vest. But yeah, we were talking last night, and you asked if I would be okay talking about it. And we weighed out the pros and the cons.

Yeah. First guy to go through Tree House. It's hard. How many people know that? Yeah. You know, my brother has a — I think it's a watch. It's a watch. Yeah. And it's got a date engraved in the back of it. And for people who don't know, my brother's my business partner — who's the better half of Tree House that doesn't jump in front of a microphone and talk all the time like I do.

0:20:59 Justin McMillen

But he's got a watch and his wife engraved on the back of it — in the way that we decided to engrave it, she decided to engrave it — was based on your admission date.

0:21:18 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:21:19 Justin McMillen

Which is like a really cool thing. I forget who, but somebody reached out to me saying — once, when's your sober date?

0:21:22 Robert Mo

Because of the watch. Maybe it was you.

0:21:29 Justin McMillen

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah.

0:21:31 Robert Mo

So that's one. My brother has that on his watch, which is — no pressure, right? You better not fuck it up.

0:21:36 Justin McMillen

Well then it's good enough to get a new watch, which will be the least of my concern.

0:21:38 Robert Mo

And that's Jeff.

0:21:39 Justin McMillen

And that's true.

Yeah. So you were — I remember when Tree House was just an idea at that point, that had grown into a group of people come together with a plan, and, you know, licensing and all that. But it was — we had no idea if it was going to work, because there was no evidence yet.

And then you showed up. And I remember the first time I saw you — I don't know if you do, but I know — the first time I saw you, you had something different going on physically. Can you describe maybe what was going on with your face at the time?

0:22:26 Robert Mo

Yeah, I — I don't relapse well, you know.

0:22:30 Justin McMillen

And when — this was 13 years ago, by the way.

0:22:32 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I did relapse, it's not like I'm one of those guys that goes on like a two year run. It's immediately life gets awful. And I think I mouthed off to the wrong people. I think I was mouthing off to the police and they weren't having it. And they might have taught my face a little lesson.

0:22:52 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah.

0:23:00 Robert Mo

So I had the name Shotgun Rob. That was my nickname. What an awful nickname, by the way. I was Shotgun Rob because it looked like half my face was blown off with a shotgun.

0:23:12 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. You — your face was purple.

0:23:15 Robert Mo

I was one shot.

0:23:16 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

I remember — it's good that we can laugh a little bit about this now, because at the time, in my head I'm going, whoa, this is real. Like this is the first guy. And I'd done a ton of stuff with housing and worked with lots of guys, but it was like you were really...

0:23:31 Robert Mo

Not only that, but you also — I wasn't talking much.

0:23:34 Justin McMillen

Yeah, you were bummed out.

0:23:36 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah. I was not having a good time.

0:23:39 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. Bummed out to say the least.

0:23:42 Robert Mo

Yeah yeah yeah yeah.

0:23:44 Justin McMillen

You weren't talking much. And everybody also — people know at Tree House we do an interview, a peer to peer interview. And of course there were no clients. Right. So peer to peer interview with you was you and the staff. Do you remember that, like, a little bit?

0:24:08 Robert Mo

I don't even know if I truly remember, or if I just remember things because I've talked to, like, you and George. George brings up how I — like, he made me hop on one foot.

0:24:14 Justin McMillen

Yeah. You came in and out of the room. We were all sitting around this table. And you came in the room and — it's okay to talk about this.

0:24:32 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah.

0:24:33 Justin McMillen

You came in the room, and we were asking you a bunch of questions, and you were just — I mean, you barely answered them. And I remember asking the guys, why do you think this guy is mentally capable? Because we didn't know — there was no baseline for you.

Your dad was involved, your mom was involved. And we weren't sure if there was serious impairment going on, because you could barely talk. And your face had no expression. So I couldn't read you. And so you went out of the room, and then George was like, I have an idea. He said, bring him back in the room, and you come in.

And George says, put one hand over your eye. And you went like this immediately. And then he said, still. And I'm sitting there going, what the fuck is this? This is the weirdest thing. George messing with me from day one.

0:25:10 Robert Mo

Yeah, it still goes on.

0:25:11 Justin McMillen

Yeah. But you did it immediately. And it was clear. I mean, what do you think he was looking for in that?

0:25:13 Robert Mo

Willingness. Yeah. Yeah. Just willingness to follow direction. And so we admitted you.

0:25:33 Justin McMillen

And I remember your mom, too. There was this — I'll never forget your mom, because she was aware that we hadn't been at it for any period of time. And she trusted you guys — well, she did, but she was like, looking at us like this.

0:25:58 Robert Mo

You better do right here.

0:26:00 Justin McMillen

It was intense. There was this very powerful feeling coming off of her that, like, this is my son. And you could tell that she was like, happy with the idea that there were all these people that were going to surround you — there was going to be one client with six clinicians and therapists and stuff.

0:26:18 Robert Mo

But it was like — she was...

0:26:23 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Your mother had the ability to be loving and intense at the same time.

0:26:26 Robert Mo

Well, yeah. I mean, she was like my biggest protector during all that. And, yeah, I'm not going to go into the names of the other treatments that I went to, but we didn't have great experiences, you know.

0:26:42 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah, I get it. I could say — I know, but I won't.

0:26:44 Robert Mo

Yeah, we won't do that. And not all of them. Some of them were good, and it was on me, you know?

0:26:53 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting — you did some higher dollar stuff that wasn't necessarily good. And then even some more right off the street types that were really decent.

0:27:08 Robert Mo

Yeah. I mean it started from real, real nice. And it was a nice place, you know.

0:27:14 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:27:17 Robert Mo

And I was still bargaining, and, you know, all that stuff that people do — oftentimes, not all the time — in their first treatment. And so it was like a chef being pampered, all the way down to Charlie Street.

0:27:38 Justin McMillen

What's Charlie Street?

0:27:41 Robert Mo

Oh, Charlie Street's a beautiful place. It's actually the first step house of Costa Mesa. Or of Orange County. Yeah. Yeah. But it's on Charlie Street. And they will take pretty much anybody who has an alcohol problem — focused on alcohol. And as long as they commit for ten days, you don't have to have anything.

And so going from really, really expensive nice place to the place where — this is the last spot, you know. This is where the homeless people go, people with no resources. And that's where I ended up. And I mean, there's a spot in my heart for Charlie Street. It's a beautiful place.

Yeah. It's all about men helping men is what it is. Because that's what I needed at that point. I, you know, I love my parents, but they didn't know how to fix this. The last thing I needed was anything close to a female trying to help me. I just needed a bunch of dudes that understood. And that's what I got, you know. Charlie Street — sort of like a holy place.

0:28:39 Justin McMillen

Yeah, absolutely.

0:28:41 Robert Mo

You know, whenever I go by there, I'm always blown away by — it's the realest of the real. Yeah, you know, there's no bullshit. And people die there. Yeah. I mean, you know, they have the phone just to call for when someone seizes up and it's just ambulances come in and —

Yeah, I saw seven seizures while I was there. Like, I became a pro. When somebody would start to go through it, somebody would just chuck you a pillow, you know, and you hold it against their head. And that's how it operates. Yeah. We just kind of help each other out.

0:29:16 Justin McMillen

As intense. Yeah.

Yeah. But you and I were there one time and a guy seized up and we held him together and it was like — and he was going really bad. And I remember thinking, this guy might die in our arms right here. Yeah. You know, as it was — I mean, all seizures are terrible. People don't know, unless you've been in those environments, what really happens, you know.

0:29:44 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:29:46 Justin McMillen

So so you were admitted into Tree House and you were the first client. And at that time, you know, it was Bobby, Clayton — I mean, all these people still work here. Yeah. George, Jeff, early on. Yeah. Was a Kathy. Kathy came in slightly later, she wasn't quite there yet. But Johnny —

0:30:12 Robert Mo

Yeah. Johnny. Johnny Ortiz.

0:30:14 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. Outrigger Johnny.

0:30:16 Robert Mo

Yeah. Yeah. Johnny. Outrigger Johnny. Outrigger. Yeah, yeah.

0:30:18 Justin McMillen

Remember a giant truck? Why does he — I don't know, I've got some video. Yeah. But yeah, it was just a group of people that had this vision. And then you showed up. And then what's amazing is that here we are sitting here over 13 years later.

0:30:39 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:30:40 Justin McMillen

And now you run the show.

0:30:43 Robert Mo

I just never left.

0:30:45 Justin McMillen

No, you left for a little while. You went and worked at Home Depot.

0:30:48 Robert Mo

That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I spent like a year at Home Depot, which is cool. It was a good experience.

0:30:55 Justin McMillen

How so?

0:30:58 Robert Mo

I obviously know what it was like on the other side, you know, with you — and I don't, we can't say names of who the second person was or the third.

0:31:11 Justin McMillen

Right.

0:31:13 Robert Mo

But there was a crew that came in — it was like seven or eight of you. That was pretty tight out the gate. Do you — I know you don't remember a lot, at least in the first month, probably. Yeah. What do you remember?

A few things stick out to me. I remember you took me on a run, and I think later on you told me that you thought I was full of shit, because I was like, yeah, I can kind of run a little bit, and I kept up with you.

0:31:47 Justin McMillen

Yeah. You did.

0:31:48 Robert Mo

Because there was one treatment that I went to that had a treadmill. And I remember — like we talked about craving earlier and distraction — I was craving, craving, craving, craving. And so I just started running on the treadmill and I was doing like a marathon a day. So yeah, I come to you just completely out of shape and just beat up.

And you took me for a run. I was like, yeah, I think I'll be able to keep up. And I did. And I think I shocked you with that. I remember going to the gym with Clayton, I think I went to the gym with Bobby to — you know, this isn't a knock on you guys by any means. I don't really remember a lot of the treatment stuff. I remember working with George. I remember working with Jeff. But what really sticks out to me was I was hanging out with that crew of guys, man.

I went from just being — like I said earlier — bummed out, but like, beyond bummed out, to man, we had so much fun. You know, we fucked around so much.

0:32:46 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:32:47 Robert Mo

You know, like — I mean, that's one of the several gifts that you get in recovery. But that was one of them. It's like being able to really laugh a lot. And we laughed all the time.

0:32:48 Justin McMillen

And you're aware of some of those stories?

0:32:52 Robert Mo

Yeah. We had a blast.

0:32:54 Justin McMillen

I bet there's stories I'm not aware of. I probably will never know.

0:33:03 Robert Mo

Just fine to — yeah, I can't bring those up.

0:33:05 Justin McMillen

Yeah. But I do remember one other thing you said to me. They didn't believe — which is you said, some people think that I'm funny sometimes. It's like, okay, man. Like, you're — I don't know if you're even going to be fully coherent here, because it was a couple of weeks in.

0:33:12 Robert Mo

Yeah, maybe like a month in. Like I used to be considered funny.

0:33:20 Justin McMillen

And I was like — yeah, we were all really — we didn't know what was going to happen. I mean, as your face started to heal and everything, and the other guys started to come in and you started to brighten up, but it was intense to watch. You talk about watching someone...

I mean, you showed up on the edge of death's doorstep. Yeah. And like, that's why I'm glad we're talking about this. Because I don't know — I mean, you're now — your educational videos are used all around the country. I mean, the significant ones are like — I think they use them in a VA in Wyoming and some other places to teach about addiction.

And I don't think people realize because of this, you know, you're in great shape, you have an amazing life and a family. I don't think people realize where you came from. Yeah. And this is kind of like what we talked about yesterday, and what I kind of meditated on last night, which was — you got to see it.

0:34:15 Robert Mo

Yeah.

Some other people got to see it. There's some pictures actually floating around of me before I went into Charlie Street, and I looked terrible. But nobody else has really seen that, except for a handful of people. And now they see, like, the YouTube video guy, you know. And we should ask Bobby at some point — somebody even put on one of my videos a comment saying like, oh, who is this guy?

He doesn't know anything about recovery, you know. And it's like, no — I'm one of them too, you know. I get it. I say, well, I'm wearing a T-shirt now, but I show up wearing a suit, and then I go to the grocery store, and I pull out some money at the bank, and nobody knows that I was some dude just wandering the streets, getting accosted —

0:34:58 Justin McMillen

Just completely incoherent.

0:35:01 Robert Mo

Yeah. And so there's value in me going into this story, because I'm hoping that gives a lot of people hope that, you know, we do recover. You got to work your ass off. But we do recover.

0:35:26 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I've said it to you — I think I said it to you at least once a year — but you're like a miracle.

And you've demonstrated — you've represented, since I met you — that the most extraordinary things can happen with humans. And if there's a will and there's love, you know — and I watched it, and it was for all of us. You were, and continue to be, one of the most inspiring people in the entire Tree House ecosystem across all the states.

Each guy — I don't want to take credit away from a lot of people that work at Tree House. They're all close to you. Yeah. They all have their own thing. But there's something very unique and extraordinary about you. And it's where you've come from, and what you've done, and how you've grown. And so steady for so long.

0:36:15 Robert Mo

Well, I appreciate. Yeah. Thank you.

0:36:19 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I don't even mean it as a compliment — I mean, that's literally how I think everyone feels. I know it is a compliment. I say nice things to people all the time. But it's just the truth. I mean, yeah. So you went through — so what are you — what did you think about, you know, with your crew at that time? You guys clearly realized at some point that you were the first clients, right?

0:36:47 Robert Mo

Did you know that we hadn't been around before?

0:36:58 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah. No, we knew that.

0:37:00 Robert Mo

I don't know. I mean, I really don't remember if right in the beginning I knew, like, these guys don't really know what they're doing and they have no experience. Okay.

0:37:08 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. You guys know what you're doing there. But —

0:37:10 Robert Mo

Yeah, but I'm the first guy walking through here. I mean, George made me do that willingness test — that's pretty much where it was at at that time. Or just like, if I'm told to go over here, I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to go over here. And it's like I'm being told to go talk to these people and join this treatment program, then okay, I'm just going to do it.

You know? But yeah, I mean, at some point I think we kind of knew that we were the first people there. I mean, I'd like to think that I had enough brain power at that point to realize, like, wait a minute — I'm the only one here, you know? But maybe I didn't.

0:37:46 Justin McMillen

You know, you got really close with my dog, too.

0:37:48 Robert Mo

Yeah. You can't tell the full story without talking about Sonny. Yeah. What about Sonny? I don't remember exactly how it happened. I don't even know if this was planned. Like, maybe you guys are sitting around a treatment team meeting talking about your one client — like, who should we start with, I guess Rob — and you guys came up with a plan.

Or if you just dropped the dog off one day. But I ended up with your dog, Sonny. And I love dogs, I love animals, I love pets. And I had Sonny for a while. Again, I don't know if that was just by accident or a well crafted plan.

0:38:31 Justin McMillen

We just didn't have a dog sitter.

0:38:33 Robert Mo

Okay. All right. So I mean, it worked out.

0:38:36 Justin McMillen

No, no, no — we talked about it for sure. The idea originally was Sonny could become a therapy dog. That was it.

0:38:41 Robert Mo

I remember that, actually.

0:38:43 Justin McMillen

Yeah. But I love Sonny. And I would take Sonny around with me everywhere. And so I'd have treatment and then Sonny at the office with you guys.

0:38:58 Robert Mo

And then I'd take Sonny with me. And to this day, I'm still very routine with everything, but I think it kind of originated there. And I had my day mapped out, and I'd go to the nooner meeting, and I'd go back to Charlie Street every day and volunteer. You know, it's Sonny, and Sonny was a safeguard for me too, because — like we talked about craving earlier —

Yeah, I could — miss me holding a leash. You know, I could go cop right now, but then what's going to happen to this dog? So...

0:39:38 Justin McMillen

They have been or not. You know. So you took a risk with that.

0:39:43 Robert Mo

But I mean, I said it before — Sonny helped save my life, you know, and I'm always going to be very, very connected to that dog.

And I don't see her that often now, but it's funny because when I do see her, it's like she remembers. She's like, oh, it's that guy.

0:40:02 Justin McMillen

Yeah. You get all excited and get my suit all furry.

0:40:06 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You and Sonny. And she was a puppy then, so it was really sweet.

0:40:09 Justin McMillen

It was. It's cool to see you guys rolling around.

Yeah. And then — yeah, I guess you did know that we were just starting off. Was there a feeling that Tree House was something special, or that it was going to go somewhere? Or were you guys just in the moment?

0:40:26 Robert Mo

I don't think I really sensed that at that point. I mean, there was a big part of me that was like, this isn't going to work, you know. I always just had that — it's so negative, but that self-talk of like, I've proven to myself I'm unfixable and I always screw this up, and I'm just waiting, you know? But like, I kept going through the motions until I really started to have that experience towards, like, this might actually stick, you know. And I feel good.

And it's like, well, I feel so good, I kind of don't want to fuck this up, so I'm gonna try even harder. And then — so I don't know that that point to where I realized, like, this might be an actual lifelong thing, because I was so hopeless. I was like, yeah, I'm going to end up dead, you know?

I pretty much assumed that was going to happen at some point.

0:41:18 Justin McMillen

How much of it — so at the time, like, if you were to look back and go, okay, what was it that caused everything to click — was it the other guys that you were in care with? Was it certain clinicians? Was it the way we did things, because it was different too?

I mean, we didn't even have — the model was to figure it out on paper. But we hadn't — we didn't put Kathy in until later with yoga. Our fitness side of things was different. Yeah. Can you — do you, if you were to pinpoint what it was that allowed everything to work and for you to find that, what would you say it was?

0:41:53 Robert Mo

I mean, it's a bunch of different things, you know. I mean, I brought it up earlier — the guys, you know, and to this day I'm still very, very close to these guys. I mean, one of them was — I had two best men at my wedding. One's my brother. The other was this guy.

You know, we formed tight bonds. That was huge for my recovery. It was also the connection to you guys, you know. And it's like that office — that little office that we started off in, that you guys started off in — that was such a safe spot for me, you know. And I knew — because I graduated the program, and then I started working at Home Depot, and after Home Depot I'd go there, and you know, Jeff was my counselor, and I would just hang out in his office, and it was such a safe thing for me, you know. You know, I have a —

Can I say their name?

0:42:51 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah.

0:42:52 Robert Mo

Charlie. They're on the website and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So one day I walked into Charlie's office and he had a graduate, and the guy had graduated a while ago, and Charlie was sitting there on his computer working on stuff, and the graduate was just laying on Charlie's couch. And I said, Charlie, this lets me know that you're a great clinician.

You are safe for this guy. You know, this office is safe. He gets off work, and then he comes here and he just hangs out. He doesn't even talk to you. He just hangs out. So it's the environment. It's the people. It's also the treatment. And what I gained from that treatment, you know — I'm a big tool guy. I learned tools, you know. Now I teach those tools, but I also still live by those tools.

And it's the physical fitness, you know — you still see me over there, and I lift the weights, and, you know, I — I never cared about any of that stuff. And then I started just doing it with the guys, and it's like, I kind of like this, you know? So I mean, it just at some point all kind of came together and clicked, you know.

0:43:58 Justin McMillen

Yeah. This — I remember Paula, who was here at the time. She's still in our sphere but just more on the wings.

0:44:13 Robert Mo

On the wings.

0:44:15 Justin McMillen

She — we were having — I don't know how many graduations we'd had at this point, but they were all down at the beach. And I remember she leaned over and she said, take this in, because this isn't going to last forever. And she didn't mean it in a negative — you know, it was just the intimacy was so strong.

Yeah. It was so strong. I mean it was like this source, you know — it was Clayton and Bobby and Jeff and me and George. And, you know, the source of all the inspiration and love was right there, right next to you guys. And that was — I just remember being bright eyed, like, what's going to happen?

We're so excited for you guys. We just thought for sure that this was going to — you guys were going to do amazing. And you did. And then it just continued. And yeah, I remember — yeah, when you went to work at Home Depot, I remember that being a thing. And then what was it that made you decide to come and try to work at Tree House?

0:45:27 Robert Mo

Oh, you offered me a job.

0:45:29 Justin McMillen

So I haven't — okay. Yeah.

0:45:31 Robert Mo

I don't know if you remember. I kind of didn't want to do it, because I was working at Home Depot, which was suggested. And that was because, you know, my background is in construction management. And I was like, oh, I could get back into that. But that's pretty demanding for a guy who's got, you know, a handful of months sober.

And it was suggested that I work at Home Depot. And Johnny actually hooked me up with that job because he worked there. Yeah, he brought me to a Home Depot and introduced me to a manager. And I got hooked up at the pro desk, and it was so much fun. It's like exactly what I needed, you know?

Yeah. I made like next to nothing, but I really didn't care, you know. It was like, as long as I got rent and food, like, I'm good. And I just talked to contractors, just BS'd with them, and like, just moved lumber around. Couldn't have been happier. But I committed to a year.

I think I stayed there like roughly a year. And then I had some opportunities. One was to stay at Home Depot — they wanted to promote me to something, they started some training with me. Another one — my old boss and mentor in the construction industry — he had an opportunity for me. And then you came to me and you're like, yeah, what do you think about being a counselor?

0:47:05 Justin McMillen

I don't know what I want to do. All that. But you already — you were managing, right?

0:47:14 Robert Mo

Yeah. So like, there were all kinds of indications that you were built for it, because you had a huge give-a-shit factor going on. You just cared a lot about people.

0:47:23 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

And I would see you in Home Depot all the time. I'd go in and buy stuff, and you'd be in there.

0:47:40 Robert Mo

Yeah. Orange apron.

0:47:43 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And then in a year you almost had a year there. Yeah. What's the value — was that intentional?

0:47:48 Robert Mo

You said it. I think I was told to stay there a year. But I don't think I did, because opportunities presented themselves.

But I was there for a long time. And then yeah. So you offered me a position. Yeah. I was working as a house manager. And I love that. I had so much fun doing that. And also just being able to give back, you know. And I mean, a lot of what I learned in that role transferred over to being a young clinician.

And I don't know why — eventually I think I was like, yeah, I guess I'll try it, you know. Like, keep doing these things in my life, and their suggestions, and it feels right. Even if I don't want to do it, it still kind of feels right. So I just keep doing these things. And it's like, I'm healthy and sober and I feel good, so maybe I should just keep doing this stuff.

And I think that's probably why I ended up working for you.

0:48:56 Justin McMillen

Yeah. You were following — I mean, you basically adopted this idea that it was slow and steady and you were following direction. But also you were — I remember you being hesitant, now that you bring it up, around coming over.

I know for us, there was this point somewhere, probably within the first year, where all of you guys were doing so well and you were hanging out all the time. And people would say, you can't tell the difference between who's the staff and who's the client. You know, it was like everybody was so intermixed. And it felt like every time we had treated somebody, there was this — we had this mission that we were really going to make a difference right at the beginning.

That was just making a difference in the community, doing something. And it felt like you guys became part of that.

0:49:40 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:49:42 Justin McMillen

Even just hanging out, it was like — we're all collectively part of this now, right? It was like this family, you know, it was just everybody was getting closer. And then we had a talk and it was the thing that was incredible.

And I was — I always used to get really turned off by going, you know, people know I didn't come from the treatment world. That's been a huge advantage, to not know the quote-unquote right or wrong way to do stuff. And I was always turned off when I would go talk to people who were working in treatment.

And hear the way they talked about — the equivalent of like, like you guys — like, these are my friends.

0:50:22 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah.

0:50:24 Justin McMillen

You know, these are other people that we brought along with us on our little sober journey, and they're part of our crew. And you're talking about them like the others. The clients are this other —

And for me it was like, there should be no difference. Which was like — I remember the MFTs and stuff we had around at the time were kind of like, you can't be that way, like it's too — you're too close. And it was like, well, maybe not. Maybe we can, like, not have this other than, you know, like it's the clients and it's the staff. And that it could be that the staff is a group of people that are trying to heal some people.

And as we heal them, they come closer, and we bring them into our world, and then we collectively start healing more people. That was very real during that first year. That was a conversation that happened a lot. In fact, there was one treatment team meeting we had where I was told that I had to not see it that way.

I won't say who said it, but I was told, like, you got to change the way you see things. And I was really upset. And I didn't lash out or act out. I was working at Tree House at the time and, you know, not in the same — it was all day like we were all together.

It's not like I was the boss — it was like everybody was together. And I remember I just sat back, I was like, okay. And then George came up to me and he was like, no, you don't have to do that.

0:51:48 Robert Mo

Yeah.

You know, people in you — like, don't worry. Yeah. I mean, that was definitely — it kind of felt because it didn't really seem like, oh, that's the staff, you know? And it was never like, oh, Justin's the owner. We all just kind of hung out.

0:52:08 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:52:10 Robert Mo

You know, like I remember when your wife — it was somebody's birthday who was Hawaiian — and your wife, being who she is, she came and she cooked like some Hawaiian thing for him up here.

0:52:24 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah.

0:52:26 Robert Mo

And like, that was kind of just a normal thing at that office, you know? And like, I know you guys were working, but it didn't really feel like you guys were working, you know, because we'd screw around a lot too.

0:52:43 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I have some videos from back in that time that are just unbelievable. How about you? You guys play guitar and sing and ridiculous songs and —

0:52:46 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah. But it really felt like — I've always had a — I don't think it's a fault, maybe to some degree, but I've always had a hard time putting people in hierarchies. Like, to me everyone's the same. I just — it's just, I don't care who you are. If you're on the street and you're down on your luck or whatever, like — people, we're just humans.

And so in my mind, we were all meant to be together. And my goal — all of our goal, Jeff's goal, everybody's goal at the time — was like, let's create the best version of these guys that we can.

0:53:16 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

Like when we treat this guy, he should come out the other end and be the awesomest guy that we want to hang out with. Yeah, that was the intention. Like, how do we get him close to us and help him get strong? And then it builds our little community. And then the other side was listening to these people talk about it — it was like, I mean, other treatment centers talk about their clients, and it was so negative all the time.

0:53:39 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:53:39 Justin McMillen

And there was a lot of like, this is just what addiction is. People fail and they fuck up. And you guys weren't fucking up. Yeah. So it was like, then there was an epiphany somewhere in that first year. And I started saying to everybody, I want to hire every single person who comes through here. Yeah, let's hire everybody.

0:53:56 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:53:59 Justin McMillen

Let's grow this by hiring people. We'll just hire every single client. So now the new goal is to get the client healthy enough — all right, not immediately, we had the time periods. You know, you got to wait. But it was like that was the metric. Like if we had a target we were aiming for.

And in hindsight this all makes sense now, it's trippy. But we had a target we were aiming for — when we knew that by the time we were done treating somebody, they were like an amazing candidate to work at Tree House. Which is how Tree House got built.

0:54:41 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:54:43 Justin McMillen

You know, that was — what's cool about it is — I was at this thing in DC.

0:54:46 Robert Mo

I'm talking too much. Keep this a conversation.

0:54:49 Justin McMillen

But what's cool is there was this thing I was at in DC, and Secretary Kennedy was talking about how he got started, and he said — I'm going to probably mess up the story, but he basically said, Bill was in Akron, Ohio, and he was trying to close some deal.

He'd been sober for some period of time through the Oxford House framework. And he started to have serious cravings to drink. He lost the deal and he was in total despair. And he was standing outside of a bar and he was listening to people drinking and the sounds of glasses clinking and everything.

And he had that obsession hard. And he somehow realized in that moment that the only way he was going to relieve the obsession was to help another alcoholic. And so he got the phone book and he started going through it and he finds Doctor Bob. Right. And then they end up hanging out that night. Everybody knows what happened from there, right? What's cool about that — and I love the fact that Kennedy, Secretary Kennedy, talks about that — is it highlights the idea that a big part of sobriety is to pass along what you've received.

Yeah. And somehow that seems to be a universal truth, because we realized that in that first year. Well, one, we all realized it because we're doing it in the first place, and all of us come from a recovery base.

0:56:31 Robert Mo

Yeah.

0:56:33 Justin McMillen

But then secondarily, we see you guys, and it's like, well, the obvious thing here is that every one of these guys needs to help another alcoholic. Either — and maybe they can do it with us. Yeah. And then that was sort of the — it was almost like that system that they talk about in AA was built into the way Tree House grew, you know.

0:57:07 Robert Mo

And now that's what we have. Yeah. I mean, and if you look back, I was already kind of doing it, you know. I was working as a house manager, you know.

0:57:20 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

0:57:21 Robert Mo

I mean, you're just helping your residents all day from big things to little things. And I was also — you're talking about — really dedicated to my program, you know. My sponsor had me sponsoring guys after like a month. That's how he was taught.

0:57:26 Justin McMillen

Sorry. Keep going.

0:57:32 Robert Mo

Yeah. But I mean, and that still happens today, you know? Justin, you weren't able to give every single graduate a job, but I still — as for you, I mean, you're aware of it, you know? And people get that experience that I went through, to where it's like, I feel really, really good. I want to go help some people.

And, you know, just the other day, a guy going through treatment was like, hey, how do I get a job here, you know? Or are you guys hiring? I get asked all the time. I mean, you know, I have a whole spreadsheet, I track it. And yeah, it's — I guess that's just kind of how it all started.

And it continues today. You know, a majority of the people that work for me went through this program. Right? And then we help them go through school. And yeah, you brought up Chuck earlier — what is Chuck's credentials? He's a CADC III. And he's going to go and get his master's.

0:58:33 Justin McMillen

Is he doing that now or not yet?

0:58:40 Robert Mo

He just got accepted.

0:58:42 Justin McMillen

Nice.

0:58:44 Robert Mo

Yeah. But when he started, he didn't even have a bachelor's.

0:58:50 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Right. So he came in without a CADC. Oh, you came in with nothing.

0:58:52 Robert Mo

Nothing? Yeah. He's just the dude from New Jersey, you know.

0:58:55 Justin McMillen

So you guided him through all those steps?

0:58:58 Robert Mo

Yeah. I mean, he started off in the physical department, but you know, those guys all have their credentials too. And —

0:59:02 Justin McMillen

Yeah. He's — I mean, he's a great example of a guy who found his passion and created a life to support what he wants to do. And that's just helping people. And he's getting the education to do that just better and better. Nice.

0:59:21 Robert Mo

My throat is scratchy, but I think it's getting better.

0:59:23 Justin McMillen

I don't want any of your water.

0:59:26 Robert Mo

Oh, he's trying to make me jealous. No, no. I yell all day, as you're aware.

0:59:32 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I could hear you. So where we're sitting is across the street from where Rob works, and I can hear him from across the street.

0:59:46 Robert Mo

Yeah. People that I'm on a Zoom call with, they're like, what is that noise? It's that crazy guy screaming — psychopath across the street.

0:59:48 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah. So you — so that's yeah. So the early days — it was like the epiphany was let's hire everybody, and let's grow this. And we just kept hiring guys. And then there was a — I don't know if you remember this, but when we had one — we have teams at Tree House, right. Team 1, 2, 3. Fully mature center has three teams.

1:00:11 Robert Mo

And team one was the beginning. It all started with team one.

1:00:28 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

1:00:30 Robert Mo

You know, and then team two started. And it was like, now we have staff. And I remember from our standpoint, the original crew was like, you guys know the different schedule. You know the schedule, you know the modalities, you know what we're trying to do.

1:00:35 Justin McMillen

But there was more to it. And we spent a long time trying to figure out what the magic was. There was — on top of the modalities — the thing that made it all work. And we couldn't — it was really hard to do. It was like, I remember laboring over this, like, what is it that we're doing that is not the treatment itself —

That could really help these guys understand how to be. And that was where the Vere McComb book, The Little Recipe for Healthy Living, and all of that, how to think about our clients — that's where that came from. Because we needed something. We needed like a frame.

1:01:19 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:01:22 Justin McMillen

That existed to represent culturally who we were. And it was such a challenge to do that, man. It was really hard. And I remember with you, as was like typical esoteric or like woo Justin bullshit stuff. But I felt it. And I came out onto the balcony of the first place we were at, the first center, and you were out there. And I was like — you have that saying, like, you have love.

Like, that's what it is. Like, we loved you. Now you have all this love. Now you have to go love people. And it was just like — that's the goal — is to replicate. We used to say we didn't want to say scale, it was duplicate. Right? Because the goal was to try to get you guys to do the same thing that we were doing in the beginning. And where we landed on top of all that other stuff was that there was so much love in us, and we just had to see that in you. As long as we saw it —

If you guys were falling on your faces and doing different things, as long as that love was there, then it was good.

1:02:34 Robert Mo

Yeah, it was right there.

1:02:36 Justin McMillen

Yes. Okay. It's never left. It's grown.

1:02:39 Robert Mo

You know, and I think you just described it.

1:02:48 Justin McMillen

Yeah. These — yeah. When we sat down I asked you how you choose counselors. It's like — you basically — it's powerful for me to hear because that's what it is.

1:03:01 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:03:03 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I mean, it's that purpose, that drive towards helping people, and to do what it takes to get the job done, help that person. But yeah — or you guys kind of — I remember this. You guys, like, passed the torch and said, like, start team two.

1:03:24 Robert Mo

That's what we did.

And I started off as the addiction Ed counselor.

1:03:34 Justin McMillen

And what's addiction Ed?

1:03:35 Robert Mo

Where does it come from?

1:03:36 Justin McMillen

Addiction Ed —

1:03:37 Robert Mo

That's me screaming for an hour every day.

1:03:39 Justin McMillen

Where'd you learn to scream like that?

1:03:41 Robert Mo

I've always been loud. Yeah. You know, I'm trying really hard not to yell right now, because I have a mic and a second mic, and I can only imagine Bobby's eardrums will blow out if I get too excited. I'm being calm.

It's — I mean, addiction Ed is all things. I mean, so at the core of it, it's recognizing that people with substance use disorder aren't stupid. Okay. And you're talking about other treatment centers, and that's part of the problem, you know — to where it's like, they're mentally handicapped. And I understand that there's a disease at play, but these — remove the drugs, throw some healing at some of these guys — you have some of the smartest, most high-functioning people you'll ever meet.

And so we're going to treat them as such. So addiction Ed is a whole curriculum that's fairly advanced as far as science and addiction and all things related, you know — boundary training, attachment theory, tools. Oh, I love my tools. And horror tools in there. Like, right now I'm teaching a group about relapse prevention.

You know, and so that's how I started. And it was developed by Jeff, who was my counselor, and then eventually the relationship changed and became my mentor, you know, and he took me under his wing. And he used to drive me nuts because he would come in later in the day.

My first group addiction Ed started at nine. And, you know, I had long days, but I liked long days. I wanted to learn everything. I wanted to stay busy. But he was kind of a night owl. And so he trained me on the curriculum really late at night. I'm like —

1:05:21 Justin McMillen

Jeff, what? I like —

1:05:24 Robert Mo

I gotta get home. I gotta go to sleep. I got teachers in the morning.

1:05:26 Justin McMillen

And we together — he would get very inspired, and he'd be late. It would be late. He'd be animated and excited. I'd be exhausted. And he would just start spewing information. And I'm sitting there and I'm super dyslexic, as you know, and I'm like, trying to figure out — and I put this together and then I'd type it up and then I'd make slides.

And then I presented the next day. And then this over time, you know, evolved into something — a lot of the core basics are there, but it's evolved into this amazing curriculum that, you know, I yell at people. Yeah. But that's how I started — was the addiction Ed counselor. And I remember thinking, part of the reason why I was hesitant about working in this field — it's one thing to be a sponsor.

1:06:20 Robert Mo

So sponsoring people, it's another thing to be a house manager. And I viewed what, like, Jeff and George did and do as like this impossible task. And I was sure — like, I'm going to fuck somebody up. Like, you make me a counselor, you know, I'm going to do a terrible job. And I remember that was in the back of my head when we talked about why I was a little hesitant.

But I initially didn't do one on one counseling. It was all addiction Ed. And then Jeff took a time to also just train me on counseling. And I went back to school, you know. I mean, it's like — the first day George made me go into that — and he didn't make me.

But George had me hop on one foot and cover my eye. It's like I've never left this environment, and it's my — my life has changed and evolved around Tree House. And, you know, that's part of the story, the career part of it.

1:07:30 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And then you keep stepping up through that. And the Jeff days were an interesting time, too.

He was a force, you know, for sure. I mean, that guy — the way that he came into the picture — did I ever tell you the story about how I met him? I mean, you probably did, but I don't remember. So — trying to find the right clinician to start. Paula was the original director, right?

1:07:54 Robert Mo

So she's an MFT. She's worked all over Orange County. She's very, very smart, very gifted woman. Does a ton of good work with codependency. And I think she has 40 years plus working in the field — or 30 years, 40, I don't know, a long time. So she was slated to come on board. I think she was nervous.

1:08:17 Justin McMillen

And while that was going on, I went in and got my hair cut. And I won't say by who. But I was getting a haircut and the guy that was cutting my hair was the guy that owned the shop. And he had become kind of famous in his own way. I mean, his shop grew to where it was in Japan and Australia, and he had a brand and everything. And I knew him since he started it.

So we were friends. And so if I go in there, I get my hair cut by him. And I was telling him about what we were doing, and he is — he's totally high. Not like a little bit high — like he's going in the bathroom and smoking heroin, kind of a thing. And he's cutting my hair and I'm stressed out like, this is not going to go well.

And everybody's like, you get your hair cut by the guy who owns the place, that means something, right? So and he's — while he's high and he's nodding out, while he's trying to — he's got one of my sideburns way down, the other was up. He's like, you need to meet my friend Jeff.

He's the best drug and alcohol counselor on the planet. He's like, if anybody ever needs help, you just go to Jeff. He's the man. And this dude is like not doing well. And in my head I am like, absolutely fucking — yeah, yeah. I'm like, on this go where? But before I left, the barber wrote down his number and it was like, take this, take this.

And so anyways, I ran into him, the barber, again — cleaned up my sideburns when I got home — ran into the barber again, and he was like, did you call him? And I was like, oh man, if I don't call this guy, it's not going to — the barber is never going to go away about this.

So I call, and he's like, hey, let's meet at Coffee Bean. Okay. Meet in person. So I'm sitting there and I think he was — I don't know if he was late or not, it doesn't matter. But he shows up. And I just remember looking and seeing this dude come walking up. And for people who know him, he's like six three. He's tall. He's a tall guy, big guy.

And he's in a suit, dressed to the nines. But he's got like tattoos all over his face and all his hands. And he comes and sits down. And I'm thinking to myself, like, what the hell am I doing? Like, first of all, barber — not doing well — tells me about this guy. Now he's here. And I'm looking at him and he's sitting there and he's telling me he's sober.

And I see in his pocket he's got a pill bottle sticking out. And I didn't ask about that for — it took like a year for me to ask him what the hell that was. Wasn't drugs, but it was like antibiotics or something. But I'm like, this is the worst thing ever.

1:10:53 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:10:55 Justin McMillen

But then he started to talk. And the amount of passion — I was literally floored. I was like, this is insane. Like, he was so passionate about things. He was so sure. I was just blown away. But I was like, well, Paula is already here. Like, is this — you know, I just met this guy. Maybe he could be a counselor or something. But it wasn't like a for-sure thing.

And he'd been — I think he was working in Pomona or something. So he was going back to the Inland Empire, something like that. Good conversation. I gave him my whole spiel on Tree House and the physical fitness and the whole thing — like the same stuff I say now, basically. And he was all about it. And the medications, and there was definitely something there.

But then what happened is he showed up. He quit his job and he showed up. He's like, I'm gonna work here. And I was like, oh man. And then I was like, oh — I can't pay him. We really didn't have a lot of money.

1:12:01 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:12:04 Justin McMillen

And he was basically like, I don't care. And it was — he, along with some other people, the way that they came on board was very similar. People quit their careers and all kinds of things to come join this original crew. And he carried the torch very well. And he inspired a lot of people.

1:12:25 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:12:28 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I mean, he went on his own path in his life. And I wish him the best. But later, years later — but man, the seeds that I love here and that he planted, the staying with you —

1:12:43 Robert Mo

I could just see it, you know.

1:12:45 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And the screaming. I think you might have got some of the screaming from him maybe.

1:12:52 Robert Mo

Are you always a screamer? Screamer?

I mean, I've always been loud. I mean, he would yell in group. And I've always felt whether it was this career that I jumped into all these years ago, or any career —

It's like you find the guy who does the job that you want to do, and you pretty much copy everything. So I'm sure there's some influence in there someplace. Yeah. But it kind of came naturally to me. Like, when I train other clinicians, I'll say, don't run a group like Rob unless it comes natural.

You know, because I've seen other clinicians go out there and try to be really loud and it's like, it doesn't feel right. No. Do your style. But yeah, I get the Holy Spirit in me when I'm up there. I'm like a Southern Baptist preacher. And, you know, since my brain shuts off and it's just, you know, guys are paying attention and they're learning. So I keep going with it.

1:13:50 Justin McMillen

Yeah. You literally are like a preacher jumping around, and it's crazy to see.

1:13:55 Robert Mo

Well, you also have to realize I'm contending against pause, you know? So like, half these guys — implicitly — just had, you know, 3.5, four hours of intense physical activity. So they're ready to learn. But some of these guys are pretty tired.

So if I went up there and just, you know, gave a really — you know, this is the brain and this is the limbic system, like the Wonder Years guy —

1:14:26 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. That guy.

1:14:28 Robert Mo

Nobody's gonna listen to me. So I gotta make it fun. And I have a good time.

1:14:31 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was — yeah. Now you're teaching it. So you're developing curriculum at Tree House, which is really amazing.

I mean, again, this is a decade's worth of time. There's so much there. But yeah, I mean, you came on board as a counselor, addiction Ed, and then started doing one on ones. And Tree House was continuing to evolve at that time.

1:14:57 Robert Mo

Yeah. I mean, team three came around at some point, you know. We moved.

1:14:59 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Yeah. We moved. Yeah.

1:15:02 Robert Mo

Just like — it's crazy because yeah, all these years, the amount of change. And it's been a lot of years. But if you really think about it, it hasn't been that much time to make this amount of change. No. And now I think about that when you listen to people getting interviewed and talking about their work and they're saying, you know, I've been at this for 25 years or 30 years, or — it's like people don't actually really get traction in terms of — if Tree House is beginning to become a national —

I mean, we're a national organization, but we're getting a national voice. And it makes sense, like we're actually on the right path because that shouldn't have happened in the first few years. It couldn't have.

1:15:51 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

You have to, like, earn all of that. Right. And at some point, a guy like you is going to be so — the stuff is going to be so built into you, you know, 20 years in or 15 years in — I mean, even it's already starting to happen. To where you sit down and it's like, you're masterful in this. And it's changed — I mean, clinically — but then finding staff, I mean, you've learned that, finding people, replacing them, hiring, training, developing trainings. What should we talk about? There's so many things.

1:16:25 Robert Mo

Right. Like — yeah. I wanted to — I mean, I was the early days of Tree House. But I wonder, like, you know, I think we're not supposed to think about what the audience would want to hear. We're supposed to just talk.

1:16:43 Justin McMillen

Okay. Yeah, but I want — I wonder —

1:16:47 Robert Mo

Go ahead.

1:16:48 Justin McMillen

Well, I brought something.

1:16:55 Robert Mo

What do you got?

1:16:56 Justin McMillen

Okay. Because I knew we were going to have this conversation, so I — we got some artifacts.

1:17:14 Robert Mo

Artifacts?

1:17:16 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Nice.

1:17:20 Robert Mo

They don't make these anymore, Justin. That's the original right there. Oh my gosh. Yeah. If you look at the patch right there, you know, it's changed. Yeah. You know, that thing is filthy, by the way. You're going to want to wash your hands.

1:17:45 Justin McMillen

Oh, even the — it's an axe.

1:17:47 Robert Mo

Yeah. I don't know why.

1:17:50 Justin McMillen

Wow. I don't even know if anyone still has these, but that's — I think Betsy still has his first one, but I guarantee you that thing's disgusting.

1:17:58 Robert Mo

Yeah, like I've sweat a lot. Smell it from here.

1:18:05 Justin McMillen

Yeah. But that's the original coxswain hat, you know. Or back then — I think I was presented that hat when I graduated, I think.

1:18:16 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah. I remember when I drew this.

1:18:18 Justin McMillen

I still have the original drawing.

1:18:20 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:18:22 Justin McMillen

That's — it's like a white owl. Okay.

1:18:25 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:18:28 Justin McMillen

What's the significance of the white owl?

1:18:31 Robert Mo

When you get to year 15, I'll tell you.

1:18:35 Justin McMillen

Okay. All right. You're gonna pull this shit on me?

1:18:40 Robert Mo

I remember these hats, though. Like, going back is a big deal to not know where this was.

1:18:49 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. Those things are sacred.

1:18:51 Robert Mo

You know, I've kept mine. I don't wear it because it's already pretty beat up, and I don't know how much life it has left, so now it's just — have it up on a bookshelf. And then — you just because you want to talk about old beat up hats — from this one to that one, is yours.

1:19:11 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And this is so gross.

1:19:13 Robert Mo

So we were talking about how these things are sacred.

1:19:18 Justin McMillen

Yeah, that you should put that one on this, Justin.

1:19:22 Robert Mo

But this is cool. This is one of Bobby's early, early designs. Like just playing with different ideas. I like this one.

1:19:28 Justin McMillen

Yeah. That was your hat.

1:19:31 Robert Mo

I know. And this is the one and only, I'm pretty sure.

1:19:33 Justin McMillen

So use it — the one and only Bobby. Off camera.

1:19:44 Robert Mo

Yeah. You let somebody borrow it, or if you gave it to them. But there's somebody who had it, and everyone knew that he had it. And one day we're at the office, the old office, and I found it laying in the parking lot.

1:19:55 Justin McMillen

Seriously?

1:19:57 Robert Mo

Yeah. So I yelled at him. It's my hat now. And I've kept it ever since.

1:20:03 Justin McMillen

That's amazing.

1:20:06 Robert Mo

Yeah. You can have it back.

1:20:10 Justin McMillen

No, no. This belongs on your shelf.

1:20:16 Robert Mo

At some point it'll be a museum.

1:20:18 Justin McMillen

Yeah. Look at that. Is that sweat just like — of course it is. You know it is.

1:20:22 Robert Mo

You know how many miles I probably ran with that fucking hat?

1:20:28 Justin McMillen

Oh. That's disgusting.

1:20:30 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah. You got anything else?

1:20:39 Justin McMillen

That's it.

1:20:41 Robert Mo

Oh, I'd like to wash my hands, but you're going to pull out some other stuff.

1:20:44 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

1:20:46 Robert Mo

That's cool. Those hats are special. Tree House gear is special too.

1:20:54 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And it's not a plug for Tree House.

1:20:57 Robert Mo

We don't sell Tree House gear. You got to earn it.

1:21:00 Justin McMillen

Or — you know that.

1:21:03 Robert Mo

There you go. You get this cough button down.

1:21:12 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I know, I keep hitting the cough button.

1:21:15 Robert Mo

Yeah. I have a lot of Tree House gear. Giving it out some classics. There's a rumor that we might be doing another run of Tree House gear soon, so —

1:21:33 Justin McMillen

Yeah, guys have been asking me about that.

1:21:36 Robert Mo

Yeah, I'd be good.

1:21:38 Justin McMillen

Yeah, that would be good.

So to talk about, Justin — I don't know. I mean, I think talking about the origins of Tree House is interesting. I think — it's weird, you're bringing me down just having this conversation, like crazy memory lane. Yeah. Yeah.

1:22:02 Robert Mo

It's weird. I mean, I really don't remember so much of that period of time.

And then it's like, naturally, time just kind of flies, you know? So I never really take an opportunity to look back and reflect on that. But yeah, it was such a small operation — that didn't feel like an operation, you know. But I mean, I guess that's how it's supposed to feel for a guy going through —

1:22:28 Justin McMillen

And we have — I've never had a guest on here who is better at the cough button than you are.

1:21:43 Robert Mo

Really?

1:21:44 Justin McMillen

Yeah. You got it down. That's good.

And so I think — I mean, so a lot has happened too for Rob. I mean, we're talking about when we call you patient zero or patient one — I mean, it's whatever you want to call me, I guess.

1:22:04 Robert Mo

Patient zero right where it all started.

1:22:05 Justin McMillen

But then it's like an infection.

1:22:08 Robert Mo

Yeah. That sounds terrible.

1:22:10 Justin McMillen

Patient like I infected everybody.

1:22:13 Robert Mo

Yeah. So — but there's a path to — there's your life path alongside all of this. So you met the woman of your dreams, got married?

1:22:31 Justin McMillen

I got married, yeah.

1:22:33 Robert Mo

How long ago was that?

1:22:37 Justin McMillen

2019.

1:22:40 Robert Mo

That's been a while.

1:22:42 Justin McMillen

Yeah, I know, right. I was — I was late to your wedding. Yes. I literally — we were running up when you guys were just going down the aisle. I was so messed up. I didn't mean to be. I think there was just so much going on, or — not even commotion, just you're so focused on the actual thing going.

1:22:55 Robert Mo

I don't even think we noticed. And you, like, spilled the beans. I think you did notice, because I didn't realize we were late. And then it became clear we were. Because when I look back at it, I'm pretty sure you brought it up to me. Maybe not. Maybe I feel like maybe you said Brittany was pretty pissed off or something like that, because we did at the very last second.

1:23:10 Justin McMillen

I don't know, I'll have to ask.

1:23:10 Robert Mo

But that was a cool wedding, though.

1:23:13 Justin McMillen

Yeah, that was really cool.

1:23:15 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah. We got married. It's been a while. I got kids, you know. I got one. Lots happened. And it's like — you know, this has been a conversation very much focused on Tree House, and now there's like this yin and this yang that I'm still trying to figure out.

1:23:36 Justin McMillen

What do you mean by that?

1:23:39 Robert Mo

Just like, okay, so we talked about early Tree House and my relationship to early Tree House. And my whole life was Tree House — all right, it was, you know, the treatment and the modalities and the team. And then I ventured out a little bit and got a job at Home Depot, but still very much like — if I wasn't at Home Depot, I was at one of the houses, or I was at the office, you know. And I had a fear back then. And I'm not going to say it's a healthy fear, but it served a purpose. I'm from San Francisco, and I was terrified —

To go back there, you know. I was terrified to leave this bubble. You know, I was told to leave housing at some point because — I was like, Rob, you've been here too long, you gotta go out. And so yeah, it's like I — I never really cared like, in early sobriety.

And by early sobriety I mean the first two years. I didn't care about meeting a girl — like, if it was to go out on a date or hang out with the dudes and watch a stupid movie, it's like I'd rather just hang out with these guys, you know. These guys don't get me into trouble.

So it was just for so long — Tree House, Tree House, Tree House. And I'm not saying everybody has to stick here and do exactly what I did. But that's just what I needed. And so now my life has evolved so much because it's like, you know, it can't be all Tree House, Tree House, Tree House. Yeah.

I can't hang out with the dudes every night. I can't — I mean, obviously I don't live in a drug and alcohol free house right now, all right — I mean it is, but not, you know, like a sober living. You know? Sure. So my world has expanded. And that's what I mean.

Like I'm still trying to figure out how that works, and I think it's kind of a lifelong journey trying to figure out how that works. Bobby's figuring out how that works right now. Yeah.

1:25:52 Justin McMillen

Yeah. That's — you know, I think it just occurred to me while you were saying that too, that if somebody wants to know what Tree House success looks like —

The earliest point of data gathering for success is you. There's nobody before you. So it's — and then what you've done through your life is actually mapping out what health looks like post Tree House, which is fascinating to think about. So your life — the life you've chosen — you have lived a pathway, or I'm sorry, you've lived a life that is like a path or a roadmap. And you don't have to do the same thing, but like what you just described is, you know, taking a year after treatment, having your environment — housing, you know, your get-well job, come back to be around the people you went through treatment with.

Then your path was you choose to work in recovery because you wanted to give back, right? Getting to go — not choosing, having more male friends at the time, you know, non-romantic relationships because that was what you could count on and not feel nervous about.

1:26:59 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:27:01 Justin McMillen

When did you know that you wanted to start dating?

1:27:04 Robert Mo

I think I was told to, honestly. I was like, you need to go — like, it's okay, Rob. You guys, stop hanging out with the dudes so much. You gotta — I mean, I was just so open to, like, you know, what direction do I go next? Yeah. I mean, in all honesty, there was one girl after like four months.

Like we went on a date and hung out, and I remember that scared me. And it just reminded me, like, I don't need to be around girls. But it was like four months after I got clean, I went on a date. And I said, no, this isn't for me. More bro time. You know? But yeah, at some point I started dating. And that was like a weird thing. And I actually go over it with our clients because it's like, what do I even like now?

Said I'm sober, you know. It's like a rediscovery.

And we matched on the old Tinder. You met your wife on Tinder.

1:28:17 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah. Hey, don't knock it. Look at your situation.

1:28:19 Robert Mo

Yeah. I mean, it worked out. And because it's like, what are my options here?

It's like I'm not going to go to a bar. I'm not going to go to a club. And it's not really in my design to go up to a girl at a grocery store and be like — oh, you know. Like, Jeff used to tell me that — he's like, this is what you need to do.

And it's like, that ain't me, you know? And also, that was around the time dating apps were like the big thing. You know, it's true. And, yeah, this isn't like private — I think we talked about it in our wedding vows.

1:29:11 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

1:29:16 Robert Mo

Yeah. So and, you know, like the whole world that that we live so far — or, you know, I remember thinking when it was time to go out there and find out what I wanted to pursue as far as like a partner in life.

1:29:43 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

It's kind of like we get these two options. It's like, do I go the recovery route or, you know, the normie route? And of course, there's a bunch of different personalities and character traits behind both of those.

1:29:52 Robert Mo

And I kind of dated both. And, you know, the nice thing about if you date a recovery girl is it's very much like you and I — it's somebody who had so many consequences, and life got so shitty that they were forced to look inside and do some major healing. So you're going to get somebody who's done a lot of work on themselves. But that's somebody who usually has baggage too, you know.

And I just kind of ended up going the normie route, even though Brittany doesn't really drink. I mean, I've seen her — I made her a cocktail once, you know. Keep in mind, you know —

1:30:32 Justin McMillen

Okay. So recovering alcoholic when I make somebody a cocktail, right —

1:30:35 Robert Mo

It's like 90% booze.

1:30:40 Justin McMillen

And like —

1:30:42 Robert Mo

Yeah. I made you a drink. Let's see what happens.

1:30:48 Justin McMillen

Because she was like, this is awful.

1:30:51 Robert Mo

She takes like a sip and then got sick.

1:30:58 Justin McMillen

Yeah. So she doesn't really drink. Never did a drug.

1:31:06 Robert Mo

But — so recovery and this whole life, foreign to her. And it is just like — if you even consider this a date — it was like our third date. She asked me if we could hang out, or something along those lines, but I had a commitment. Okay. I was going to be a speaker at a 12-step meeting. And I know I wasn't planning on inviting her, but for whatever reason, she got invited.

And she went to the Costa Mesa Alano Club, where in front of a group of people, I for like 45 minutes told my story. You want to talk about a great way to just introduce a girl into your life —

1:31:48 Justin McMillen

You know, because usually, like, I date three, it's — I don't know, you're trying to —

1:31:51 Robert Mo

You know, impress them. You know, look at my car, check out my cool watch. And yeah, look — she'd never been in a 12-step meeting, all right? Probably seen them on TV. Doesn't really know what it consists of. She's in the back room of the Alano Club, and I'm at a podium telling awful stories.

And, you know, terrible things that have happened to me and terrible things that I've done. And then, you know, how I recovered, because that's the good part of a speaker talk. But at the end of it — I mean, you want to talk about a great way to weed out somebody, you know. It's like, will they stick around or not after they learn about you?

And, yeah, she just cried throughout the entire thing.

1:32:39 Justin McMillen

So like — I had no idea.

1:32:41 Robert Mo

You know?

1:32:46 Justin McMillen

Yeah. She's special.

1:32:54 Robert Mo

Yes. She's a good one. She really is.

1:32:57 Justin McMillen

Like, you guys are good for each other. I think seeing you guys together is cool.

1:33:02 Robert Mo

Yeah. You looked out. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

1:33:04 Justin McMillen

And then you had some beautiful children.

1:33:15 Robert Mo

Yeah. We got two. And then you're bouncing out the —

1:32:41 Justin McMillen

The work thing. And you keep stepping up and elevating — like, you're running the show now, and you have big ideas and plans for the future.

1:33:02 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:33:05 Justin McMillen

And Tree House has changed quite a bit. Are there moments in time over the last decade that stand out to you around Tree House's shifts and changes?

1:33:27 Robert Mo

Oh yeah. I mean, okay, so when I became director — obviously, you know, that was a big change. I mean, for me, you know. But I'm sure for the company too. And, you know, I credit a lot of that to Lisa and Neil, who kind of helped me out, you know?

And Jeff was still around and Jeff gave me a lot of consultation. You drove me nuts. And I get it now, I get it. But I remember at the time it was like, why is Justin micromanaging me? Why is he — doesn't he trust me? I was so mad.

1:34:02 Justin McMillen

And then now I get it, because it's like, oh, it's Justin's baby.

1:34:05 Robert Mo

And he had to make sure that I was going to do it right. You know? But yeah, that was — you really feel like I was micromanaging or just asking you why you're doing everything that you were doing?

1:34:14 Justin McMillen

I'm sure it was nothing but, like, you know, personalize it.

1:34:21 Robert Mo

Yeah. I was — I had a — could do some owner stuff, whatever the hell that is. I got it.

And then — okay. So I would say one of the biggest changes — and was it on purpose — was Covid.

1:34:39 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah.

1:34:41 Robert Mo

I mean, that was huge. I mean, we won't be at this location now if it wasn't for Covid.

1:34:46 Justin McMillen

And that's like — how long have you been director? I was director for like a month.

1:34:54 Robert Mo

And then Covid hit.

Yeah, like you guys threw me right in there. I had a Joint Commission inspection like a week after I was director. And then, like, Covid hit. And I had to figure out how to provide services when the whole world shut down and went crazy.

And managed paranoia and fear.

1:35:26 Justin McMillen

Oh, man.

1:35:28 Robert Mo

Yeah. People are tripping, yeah. Like I would talk to people — as you see, it's like they're looking at you like, are you going to get nervous or are you going to say something like the sky is falling? And I just — that was a really difficult time.

1:35:45 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I mean, the conversations around Covid are exhausted at this point.

1:35:47 Robert Mo

It's time for Covid. But man, that was a crazy time to be doing what we do. I remember thinking, far more people die of drug overdoses than Covid, and it was like, the show must go on. Yeah. We made it work. And I mean, I remember like we were doing workouts in the driveway, you know, just bringing dumbbells and kettlebells over there.

But because of that, that's how we ended up at the dojo, as the guys call it now. And it's such a cool environment. It really is. And now it's a campus. And it became the model — sort of that — the North Carolina building was, in a lot of ways, inspired by the way we were set up here.

1:36:31 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And further, you know, the new locations we set up will be similar.

What do you — I mean, you're the center out of all five that is the most mature. It's a fully mature meaning — what does it mean? Fully mature?

1:36:47 Robert Mo

Meaning that we have three teams and an evening program.

1:36:53 Justin McMillen

And so from here, where do you go from here?

1:36:55 Robert Mo

Like what's your vision in terms of where to take this?

1:36:58 Justin McMillen

Are you talking about Tree House as a whole or Orange County?

1:37:01 Robert Mo

Anything. I mean, I think — I think Orange County, because this is your spot. But you're also working nationally as well. I mean, there's — you're providing insight and helping with all the pods.

1:37:11 Justin McMillen

We call them pods. Yeah. Which I don't know if I — if I were really like that, I kind of like it.

1:37:13 Robert Mo

It's cool. So I can keep it then.

1:37:15 Justin McMillen

Yeah. I mean, what — treatment centers. Yeah. Sounds old and stuffy, you know.

1:37:23 Robert Mo

I mean, you know, my vision is always to expand. We don't have enough Tree Houses. You know, we have a whole world of people suffering, and we got five locations. We need to grow. And whether that's like, you know, we want a Tree House in every state, you know.

As far as Orange County goes, we need more, you know — like, let's do a team four, team five, or let's open one down in Laguna and, you know, team one, team two. How would — why would Southern California or Orange County be better to have more Tree Houses as opposed to other treatment centers?

1:38:08 Justin McMillen

I mean, there's so much recovery here already, you know. Plus the way the program is kind of built for Orange County. And, you know, we have the ocean right there. So able to go out in the rafts. And I just know a lot of guys want to get sober at the beach. They want that boat experience. You know, you go on their website and you —

See a guy, or a group of guys, riding a wave. People want to come out here. And I mean, a lot of this is personal — I think Orange County is a great place to get clean. You know, yeah, there's resources, city resources, 12-step, Charlie Street, all these great places to really help support somebody's recovery.

Yeah. I think — I mean, obviously I'm biased, and you probably are too. It'd be hard to argue not. But what — why does Tree House have the superior outcomes that it does? Why is it the best in the country? Let's first define what best is. Best means that the people who come through Tree House have the greatest probability of long-term sobriety.

Why do you think that is?

1:39:18 Robert Mo

I mean, it's not just one thing. It's a ton of things, you know. It's the modalities. It's —

1:39:20 Justin McMillen

What do you mean when you say modalities?

1:39:22 Robert Mo

Okay, so — I'm sorry — the treatment. The brand of treatment that we're providing. You know, it's different from a lot of other places. And there's a lot of thought and science and research and backing that has gone into that. You know, I give clients questionnaires and I ask them like, what makes Tree House different?

So that's one thing. But I'd say the two things that pop out the most — what do you think the two things that pop out the most are?

1:40:06 Justin McMillen

Community.

1:40:08 Robert Mo

Okay.

1:40:09 Justin McMillen

And the physical fitness side. Culture, community, culture, physical fitness. Those get brought up a lot. The boats get brought up a lot. But you said community. The two things that are probably named the most —

1:40:13 Robert Mo

Staff that give a shit. And my team. It's the people.

1:40:20 Justin McMillen

Yeah. It's the people.

1:40:23 Robert Mo

You know. But that's where it all starts. And then from the people, that's where, like, the treatment ideas come into play. It becomes real. But I mean, we get somebody who doesn't give a shit, and bring a group of guys out on some boats —

And yeah, it's a cool experience. But then when you have a trained — a bit therapist out there — it's — it's not therapeutic, you know.

1:40:56 Justin McMillen

Yeah, that makes sense. I think — I mean, it goes back to what we were saying, right? Like the culture, or like the authenticity, the true — like the actual love that exists.

You know, you talking about how you hire staff the way you do. I think that's your — I mean, I've had several people say — I've had people say who've done 20 years or 15 years in the Special Operations Forces community, say that to be surrounded by this caliber of people is something really special.

That's a big deal considering that all the guys, their old world was all people that were selected. And, yeah, there's just — you come into any one of our facilities, and yours specifically, and you can feel it. You can feel the staff and the — and then that is a group. The client culture is a reflection of the staff culture.

1:41:45 Robert Mo

Oh, 100%.

1:41:48 Justin McMillen

Yeah. You know, there's like — my son said, dad, what is it like to work around — he didn't say it in this way. He said, you work with like superhumans or something like that. And he hears me talk about you guys. And I bring you up all the time. I can talk about you all very romantically.

Romanticizing. Yeah. Because each of you is just unbelievable. It's like — the people is everything. I mean, if everyone here just keeps becoming more awesome as humans, it's going to make everything even better.

1:42:25 Robert Mo

Yeah.

1:42:28 Justin McMillen

And then your job is — your job is to be the king of the awesome guys. Okay?

1:42:38 Robert Mo

King of the — okay.

1:42:40 Justin McMillen

And to keep them. Keep them all together. Right? And to move them along. And managing egos and personalities and there's a lot of that in my job too.

1:42:51 Robert Mo

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:42:53 Justin McMillen

So your vision is more centers, more — it's more and better, you know. Let's make the treatment better and let's offer it to more people. How do we do that?

1:43:05 Robert Mo

Give me your plan. What's your plan? For funding. You know, I don't know if we've got to get out there and talk to the right people. If we had the funding, does that mean we could just grow?

1:43:22 Justin McMillen

I mean, I think it helps. Yeah. Yeah.

1:43:24 Robert Mo

Yeah. Knowing the right people, understanding the laws. And, you know, but okay, so two things. Funding.

1:43:35 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

1:43:37 Robert Mo

But like, you know, the people — again, we go back to the people, you know.

1:43:48 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

1:43:50 Robert Mo

I think it's the people and it's the public's awareness that we exist. Those are like — the reason that matters is because we will most likely always grow based on demand. I mean, the demand's there. But it's awareness — awareness of our service. Right. Like, that's a big piece of it. And at some point there will be more people trying to find their way into Tree House than we possibly have room for.

1:44:25 Justin McMillen

Yeah.

1:44:28 Robert Mo

And then that drives the expansion. Slightly. Then the other piece is you have to have the people.

1:44:36 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And yeah.

And I think this is interesting — back to the basics conversation — because maybe you guys should be considering, how do you get every single one of these guys that you're treating to be part of your team?

1:44:57 Robert Mo

It'd be nice to have a giant pool of people ready to go. Yeah, yeah.

1:44:59 Justin McMillen

How are you going to get that done?

1:45:03 Robert Mo

Be humble. I'll start working on that.

1:45:08 Justin McMillen

Yeah. If anyone can do it, it's you.

1:45:13 Robert Mo

Is you. So — well, I think we should — we've been at this for a little bit here. We'll wrap this up today. This is to be continued.

1:45:20 Justin McMillen

Okay? Okay.

Because I think you and I talking about future plans and vision for Tree House would be a good thing to do.

1:45:29 Robert Mo

Yeah. We got a lot of work to do.

1:45:31 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And then we could do like so many different parts just on your — the things you teach in your videos are amazing.

1:45:36 Robert Mo

But every one of them could — there's more we could go into. There's so much around what you do and so much nuance that, yeah, I'd love to have it —

1:45:48 Justin McMillen

I know — the podcast is not a recovery podcast.

1:45:56 Robert Mo

Yeah, but obviously this matters to me.

1:45:58 Justin McMillen

Yeah. And somebody with your expertise, your background, your history and your vision is exactly the kind of guy that I want to have on the show.

1:46:07 Robert Mo

Okay. So thank you.

1:46:09 Justin McMillen

Rob. Yeah, yeah.

1:46:14 Robert Mo

Thanks for having me.

1:45:36 Justin McMillen

Yeah, yeah.