Transcript

[00:00:00] [Intro]

[00:00:41] Justin McMillen: How are you doing today?

[00:00:42] George Coleman: I'm doing great.

[00:00:43] Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yep.

[00:00:46] George Coleman: Yes, I am.

[00:00:47] Justin McMillen: Why? Great.

[00:00:52] George Coleman: I've gotten... I've gotten back into the morning routine.

[00:00:56] Justin McMillen: Okay. What does that look like?

[00:00:58] George Coleman: And not skipping it for any reason. So what that means is I get up about an hour and a half earlier than normal. And so I have a morning routine of writing, doing some breathing. Just basic stuff we teach.

[00:01:21] Justin McMillen: Nice.

[00:01:22] George Coleman: Yeah. And it's, you know, it's just we teach guys that all the time. And sometimes, you know what I've experienced, especially with this program we're doing now with staff members, what I've noticed is when guys start to struggle, the first thing that happens is, it's what happened with our friend. The other day he had a rough two weeks. I said, well, what changed in two weeks? And he said, you know what I said? I stopped doing my morning routine.

[00:02:02] Justin McMillen: Is this a guy who does the cold plunge every morning?

[00:02:05] George Coleman: No, it's one of our staff.

[00:02:06] Justin McMillen: Oh, a staff member here? Yeah. Got it. Okay. I was thinking of somebody else.

[00:02:09] George Coleman: So he got, we recreated his, you know, his morning routine on one of his little cards. And he started doing it for two weeks and he walks around smiling.

[00:02:22] Justin McMillen: So what do you think it is? Because this... it's a big thing, like morning routines, it's a subject. Like, a lot of people, influencers on the internet and health people, talk about this morning routine. Why do you think it makes people... why does it seem to be a universal truth that having a good one is important? Why? Why is that?

[00:02:45] George Coleman: It's something you and I talked about years ago. About how, you know, how you start the day. You determine how the day starts. Not somebody else. Not something else. You decide that.

[00:02:57] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:02:58] George Coleman: And when you start it in that way, then after you get through the first part of the morning, what happens is the Law of Attraction takes over. So when you're in that mode, very healthy, very positive, very engaged, that's what you're going to attract. Unhealthy people don't want to be around you. They don't. Sure. And so it just flows from there. It starts with you, but then it picks up steam.

[00:03:30] Justin McMillen: That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy how the opposite is true too. If you start your day in a bad way, it can just take you through the whole day. And it isn't true that, like, oh, can I get out from here? It's like, no, it's probably going to stay.

[00:03:45] George Coleman: Yeah. And it works the same way on the other side.

[00:03:49] Justin McMillen: Yeah, I've been playing with not using my phone in the morning.

[00:03:52] George Coleman: Yeah, that's right. I don't turn it on until I'm done.

[00:03:56] Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's good. It's good. Yeah, the writing thing's interesting too.

[00:04:01] George Coleman: Doing.

[00:04:01] Justin McMillen: The writing thing in the morning, like if you're doing creative stuff, you know. I think, well, first, you know, people watching this, you're a writer. A little bit of a writer.

[00:04:12] George Coleman: Yeah, I like to write.

[00:04:13] Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, I want to talk about that a lot today, if we can. I would like to get into that some more.

[00:04:20] George Coleman: I was talking to somebody earlier today, and we were talking about that. The guy I was talking to is one of our current clients... no, I knew who it was. I remember, it was one of the new guys that Scott brought on for business development.

[00:04:39] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:04:40] George Coleman: Okay, Marco, I want to say, I forget his name, but anyway, Scott introduced me to him, and he said he already knew who I was. And we got to talking. And he said, well, I always do that. He said, you know, I can remember years ago being interviewed by a woman who wrote for a magazine back East. That was when the book was jumping off. And she was the first person to ever ask me, why do you write? And I thought about it, and what I landed on was, what I learned over the years is, if I go two days without some kind of writing, I'm not fun to be around at all.

[00:05:31] Justin McMillen: I'm not good. I'm not good. It's good that you know that.

[00:05:36] George Coleman: Yeah. And I get cranky, I get irritable, and it's... that's why that morning routine is not something you can compromise with.

[00:05:46] Justin McMillen: Do you think it's easier... yeah, I mean, the best way to say this, what's the best time of day to write for you? And is it dependent upon the type of writing you're doing? For example, if you're trying to write something technical, is it better to do it at a different time of day? Creative writing is better in the morning, or is that journaling? Like, how do you... you know, you're a tender young age of 22, right?

[00:06:14] George Coleman: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:15] Justin McMillen: So you probably... yeah, I'm sure you've mastered this a little bit for yourself because you've been writing a long time.

[00:06:23] George Coleman: I think for me, if the piece I'm working on is short, and I can see it like a package deal, and it's sort of in reach, then the morning.

[00:06:40] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:06:40] George Coleman: But if it's something long term that I'm working on, then, like the book for example, when I'm working on that, I only work on it in the evening.

[00:06:49] Justin McMillen: Okay. So maybe if it's something that can be completed in that period of time... yeah, got it, okay. Yeah, that's interesting.

[00:06:57] George Coleman: Yeah.

[00:06:59] Justin McMillen: Yeah, I think the processes that writers use is interesting. Yeah. Do you have...

[00:07:06] George Coleman: That's, yeah, that's what that guy was explaining to me. I said, so I want to...

[00:07:12] Justin McMillen: Is writer's block a real thing?

[00:07:17] George Coleman: You know, I had a tutor for years, Barry. And he taught me that there's no such thing. And he said, what people are talking about, in his eyes anyway, when you talk about writer's block, is that what they're really saying is, I don't know what to write about.

[00:07:43] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:07:43] George Coleman: And he said, anybody that I work with, that I talk to about this, what they talk about immediately, the first rule is, my first sentence is, I don't know what to write about today, but here it goes. Because as long as you get your hand moving and you get thoughts moving, it will come out. Sure.

[00:08:08] Justin McMillen: That makes sense.

[00:08:09] George Coleman: Yeah. And we run into it here with guys that are a little reluctant or not sure what to write. I was told the same thing. Just write that you're not sure what to write, and then go from there. See where it goes.

[00:08:24] Justin McMillen: It's interesting that there's modes, at least... I don't know if it's just, I think it would be the same with writing. I think it is. But creativity in general, I think there's like a mode to be in, you know. Like, for me, if I want to do something with my hands, I don't... it doesn't happen, I can't just do it. It's like I got to really be at it for a few days, and then I have like a switch that sort of flips, and then it's on, and I can't stop.

[00:08:53] George Coleman: And that's that switch, for when, in reference to writing, that switch comes when you know what you're writing about, and then you're 100% in it.

[00:09:05] Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:06] George Coleman: That's the switch, I think.

[00:09:07] Justin McMillen: What does that feel like, when you say 100%?

[00:09:09] George Coleman: Nothing else exists.

[00:09:14] Justin McMillen: Nothing except for...

[00:09:15] George Coleman: What's right in front of me.

[00:09:18] Justin McMillen: [crosstalk]

[00:09:20] George Coleman: Oh, yeah. So Barry taught me an exercise that he did with that. He would give me an index card, and he would give me an assignment, basically, what to write about. And then he told me, when you get ready, when you're going to sit down, papers in front of you, pen, everything's ready, you take the index card and write down the time on the next card, and then turn it over. And then you do your writing, and when you're all done with your writing, and you're completely happy with what you've produced, then on the index card, you write down the time, the current time now, and then you wait a minute, and then you turn it over before you guess how long you've been writing. Usually I would put... I would think it was like 20 minutes or something. Sometimes it was as much as two hours. Because the part of your brain, the old coconut, the part of your brain that registers time, the passing of time, if you're fully in it, it doesn't have anything to do. So it goes to sleep.

[00:10:32] Justin McMillen: I know what you mean.

[00:10:33] George Coleman: That's why the time goes.

[00:10:35] Justin McMillen: I know what you mean. It doesn't... I mean, I don't know that I've experienced that with writing. Probably at some point I have, but definitely with artwork. Oh yeah, my hands, like drawing, sculpting, carving.

[00:10:52] George Coleman: I think most creative endeavors are like that. The good ones, anyway. Yeah, to get a good product you have to be in it. You have to be fully in it.

[00:11:04] Justin McMillen: Yeah, it's almost... it's a very joyful thing. It's not a joyful sorrow, when you hear "joyful" you sort of picture like someone bouncing and smiling. It's not like that. It's like you're in it. It's exhilarating. It feels good, right? You can feel it, it could be addictive.

[00:11:25] George Coleman: Well, I've had guys that I've worked with describe it to me. This may sound a little out there, but their description of it is, it's the most spiritual moments they can remember having.

[00:11:45] Justin McMillen: I could see that. Yeah. Are you channeling something? Yeah, I feel that way too. And, you know, Jeff, the painter.

[00:11:53] George Coleman: The musician.

[00:11:54] Justin McMillen: Yeah, he was talking about when he is painting, he's getting really into it, and he's like, "It's like I'm swimming in it, I've got it." Yeah, I'm like, I get it. It sounds so out there, right? But I get that feeling, you know, being lost in it. Yeah.

[00:12:17] George Coleman: The example I have personally is that moment I remember when we had the first really organizational meeting at Johnny's house. And I was just standing in the back of the room, watching all the pieces of the program on the pie chart. And then from somewhere came this idea, "I know what's missing."

[00:12:41] Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:43] George Coleman: And that went from there.

[00:12:45] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:12:46] George Coleman: And where, where did that come from?

[00:12:49] Justin McMillen: I don't know. I don't know. That's a big question.

[00:12:51] George Coleman: I think, and I don't want to... I don't need to know.

[00:12:54] Justin McMillen: Right.

[00:12:55] George Coleman: It's not going to change anything. No, it's not going to make it any less wonderful.

[00:12:59] Justin McMillen: But it's fun to wonder.

[00:13:00] George Coleman: Yeah. And that's as well with guys who we work with, they wonder, and then there's a point when they say, okay, I don't need to know. Or there's a point when they step into the rabbit hole.

[00:13:12] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:13:13] George Coleman: So it's about being able to recognize that, I think.

[00:13:15] Justin McMillen: Sure. Sure. I love thinking about it. I'm always fascinated by, where does that stuff come from? Is consciousness inside of our heads? Is it where ideas appear like that?

[00:13:32] George Coleman: Because I've had pieces of writing that just came out that way. Like, there's poems I have that, you know, I don't even know where they came from. They just fell out.

[00:13:50] Justin McMillen: I'm serious. I know, I know.

[00:13:52] George Coleman: And 20 minutes later I had a full done piece.

[00:13:56] Justin McMillen: I get it. I will do that with... so, you know me pretty well, and at this point in my life, I mean, I'm a pretty creative guy, that's like my thing, but I do business. And so most of my creativity now is in that way. And it's funny how I can't get away from it, not that I want to. But even just in the shower, or drying off, the idea will pop right into my head. Exactly. It's like, where did that come from? And it's the answer to a problem or something we should try doing. And what's cool about it is, they're not things that are like... they're like wonders. Like when you're sure, which is a whole different deal. Yeah, you know, I feel like I'm certain this is what we should do. Yeah, it's like when it's real and it's there, it's in front of you, you know? And it happened for me, like, in the shower.

[00:14:54] George Coleman: Yeah, and it's, the decision has already been made when it gets to that point.

[00:14:59] Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then it's just go. The creative process is pretty amazing. And writing's amazing, I get why people get writer's block. I think it's probably valuable just to write, just to write every day, all the time. And so that you just get used to pen and paper and flowing, and once you can find that flow with writing, the same as you do with anything else in life, I would think.

[00:15:31] George Coleman: I'm a big fan.

[00:15:33] Justin McMillen: Yeah, I know, yeah. So much so that you created the best therapeutic writing program known anywhere in the country. I think that's where this is all taking you. I mean, it's your own personal experiences, but...

[00:15:54] George Coleman: Where it's taken us.

[00:15:55] Justin McMillen: Us? Yeah, sure. Well, but, George, I mean, you're "naked writing" and... your approach to therapy is extraordinary. It's not me, I'm part of the machine. So, don't sell yourself short, I can't take... I mean, I know people are aware that I am a big part of Tree House Recovery, you know that. But I'm talking about naked writing right now. And what you've done with that program, since I've known you, with our program, I've seen your program, but it's extraordinary.

[00:16:42] George Coleman: It's helping, I think.

[00:16:44] Justin McMillen: Yeah, it is. I think it's helping a lot, and I'd love to get into some of that today. When we... before we started, you were going to tell me a story, and I cut you off because I said, why don't you wait till we turn the microphones on. It was about a session. Yeah, I don't remember it, you're so full of it.

[00:17:12] George Coleman: Yeah. Yeah, it's just...

[00:17:15] Justin McMillen: I was... it was a writing session with somebody, a writing session? Okay. Yeah. Can you talk about it?

[00:17:21] George Coleman: I can, I just have to be intentional about no names.

[00:17:29] Justin McMillen: Sure.

[00:17:32] George Coleman: But the names don't matter, in truth, I really don't. But over time, one of the most revealing and powerful prompts that we've come up with, it's old number seven, they call it. And it's about each person being given permission to bring back from the dead one person they've known, to spend a day with them, and they talk about what they'll do that day, where they'll go, how they'll spend the day. What will they talk about, soup to nuts.

[00:18:10] Justin McMillen: Means... yeah, let me interrupt you just because, for clarity's sake, for people who are listening, when you're saying "prompts," you're referring to... because there's going to be people who hear this who don't know exactly what you mean.

[00:18:22] George Coleman: So, so with each session...

[00:18:25] Justin McMillen: Writing as therapy. Right? Okay.

[00:18:29] George Coleman: First, I hand the guy a written, or actually a printed, copy of what that session, what he's going to write about.

[00:18:42] Justin McMillen: Okay, like a topic? Yeah. And that's what you're calling a prompt? Yeah, got it, okay, clear. Yeah. So the prompt, in this scenario...

[00:18:51] George Coleman: Is being able to bring back from the dead one person you've known, to spend a day with you.

[00:18:55] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:18:57] George Coleman: Who's the person you might choose? What are you going to talk about? What are you going to do, go through a whole day? And it reveals a lot of unresolved trauma, which we can then work on. But what happened recently was, I went over it with a guy, and it's very emotional for just about everybody. He was really emotional, a lot of tears.

[00:19:29] Justin McMillen: And...

[00:19:32] George Coleman: So I allowed him to go through that. And then, when I could see that his breathing was settling back down, and he was settling back down again... this is, I don't know where this came from, because it's not something anybody ever suggested to me, or anything I read, but in that moment, seeing the pain he was in, I realized that maybe it wasn't pain. So I said to him, well, you know what, before we go any further, identify those tears. He said, what do you mean? I said, well, there's tears of joy, there's tears of pain, there's all kinds of tears. If you can identify what kind of tears you just experienced, then we know what direction we can go in. So he thought about it for like a good 5 or 10 minutes, and he said, well, it was really guilt and regret together. So okay, so now we know what we're talking about. Guilt and regret about what? Well, this person he'd written about, when that person died, his guilt was over the fact that he wasn't there. Because if he had been there, he could have said that one magic thing that would have stopped it from happening. What you might call a gigantic assumption. Eight years, he lived with that pain, based on this assumption that he had the power to do that, to stop it.

[00:21:30] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:21:30] George Coleman: So I asked... and this was a man I'd been wanting to meet for years. He said, what do you mean? I said, well, I would love for you to tell me what that magic word is, that you were going to say to stop this from happening. And he said, well...

[00:21:48] Justin McMillen: I don't know.

[00:21:49] George Coleman: So, you've been in pain for eight years based on assuming you would deliver a message that you don't even know what it is. I said, is that true? So, yeah, I guess it is.

[00:22:09] Justin McMillen: Wow. So in a scenario like that, would you go one step further and help them try to identify what the message could have been? No, no, no, that seems like not the right answer.

[00:22:22] George Coleman: No, no. The next step for him was, okay, now you're clear about this, there's no more assumption...

[00:22:33] Justin McMillen: Going on here.

[00:22:35] George Coleman: You don't have the magic word, but what you do have is plenty of memories. So the next step for you is to sit down and write five stories, fun, wonderful times you had with that person. Half a page, maybe, it doesn't matter, but write five stories about that person, fun times or memorable times, whatever it is. And then he brought that back, and we went over it, and he couldn't stop smiling. Because that image of the death was so powerful, that's what people focus on.

[00:23:15] Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:16] George Coleman: And the only way to shift that is by having something else.

[00:23:24] Justin McMillen: That's so interesting. That's the process, right? Somebody writes it, and they read it to you.

[00:23:30] George Coleman: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:33] Justin McMillen: And then how do you know what to say? Sorry, that seems like a really silly question, but how the hell do you know what to say if somebody reads something? I mean, you've taught a lot of people to do this kind of therapy, so... so clients are reading something, how in the hell do you know what the right thing to say is?

[00:24:01] George Coleman: I don't know if there's ever really a right thing to say, but what we've learned is...

[00:24:09] Justin McMillen: Probably the way to put it.

[00:24:11] George Coleman: But, you know, in most cases, I think the best we can do is offer a client, offer to listen to what his perception of this event is, whatever it is, allow that to be put out here on the table, and then look at it together, and then offer a suggestion. We never tell a client what to do in writing. We offer a suggestion of being... you, ready, being creative, coming up with an alternative way to look at that reality.

[00:24:56] Justin McMillen: God, so it's like I have this box in front of me, which is the content, whatever I wrote about, that relationship, to this box. Like, it's not comfortable, doesn't feel good. And so at that point, you're guiding them to try to understand it in a different way, but you're not telling them what to...

[00:25:15] George Coleman: Know. Just...

[00:25:17] Justin McMillen: Questions, and just...

[00:25:18] George Coleman: Yeah, just to offer a different way to look at it. Like, maybe the contents of that box got you here. And maybe it's something to be grateful for, not something to feel pain about.

[00:25:30] Justin McMillen: Yeah, you've done this a thousand times, a few more than a thousand. What surprised you the most about... it's a big question, but over the years, is there anything that surprised you about the way that men deal with this? You primarily do this with men. Yeah. Is there anything that surprised you about how this works? Or any moments where you'd think, I can't believe that it's going this way, or I never thought that would happen? Is there anything like that?

[00:26:06] George Coleman: Well, I think going back to my first exposure to it is maybe the answer to that, because it came at a time when I was in such really bad pain, and hate, and everything negative you can think of, when the idea of using writing as a therapy tool was presented to me. The counselor I was working with... I didn't even talk to Mom. And when she gave me that idea, that's when things changed.

[00:26:42] Justin McMillen: Did you get close to her through that? Or was it just kind of like you had agency now to heal yourself?

[00:26:50] George Coleman: Oh, twice a week I would go see her.

[00:26:53] Justin McMillen: But did you feel connected to her through it, or was it just like she's sitting in the room and you're processing the writing, and you have a system in place now? You know what I mean, like, would it have been different than writing? So how did that go, was she someone you grew close to over time?

[00:27:13] George Coleman: The truth is, I don't remember her name.

[00:27:14] Justin McMillen: Okay, so I think that answers my question. Yeah, but...

[00:27:18] George Coleman: But the other truth is... here it is, wait, let me do the math.

[00:27:25] Justin McMillen: 40 years. 30 years later.

[00:27:28] George Coleman: 70-something.

[00:27:33] Justin McMillen: 70s? Yeah. The 70s.

[00:27:36] George Coleman: That's when I was seeing her.

[00:27:37] Justin McMillen: Okay, so 30 years, 40-something years, probably 45 years.

[00:27:45] George Coleman: Yeah, something like that. So the reality is, no, I don't remember her name. But here we are still talking about her.

[00:27:50] Justin McMillen: Yeah. So, yeah, it was...

[00:27:52] George Coleman: An amazing impact she had.

[00:27:56] Justin McMillen: The reason I ask that is, I think what I've heard from guys after they leave is, especially, you know, when we did some data collection in 2019, one of the questions we asked was, do you use writing as a tool? And it was well over half of them said that they did. And I think what's interesting is that one thing guys say is that this now becomes a thing they can use to process their emotions with no therapist there.

[00:28:33] George Coleman: Right. Oh yeah.

[00:28:34] Justin McMillen: Yeah, so I'm wondering, how much of it is just creating space and letting people write, and then guiding them slightly? But is the goal to have them be able to do this on their own, working through ideas and thoughts with a pen and paper after they leave?

[00:28:54] George Coleman: I mean, the whole approach for guys we work with is to master this tool while they're here.

[00:29:05] Justin McMillen: Got it. That answers my question. Yeah. Okay.

[00:29:07] George Coleman: Be all in with it while you're here. And then when you leave here, wherever you go, you can take this with you, and you can allow it to help you.

[00:29:20] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:29:20] George Coleman: The difference is, when you go out, say...

[00:29:26] Justin McMillen: [crosstalk]

[00:29:28] George Coleman: And you don't have a therapist giving you a prompt, what you do is, that day, whatever hits you in the gut that doesn't feel good, that's what you write about that night.

[00:29:40] Justin McMillen: Do guys call you up and ask you for a prompt?

[00:29:43] George Coleman: Yeah, graduates.

[00:29:45] Justin McMillen: Can you help me figure out what questions to ask myself right now, or what subject I should be writing about? I guess I probably wouldn't even know how to ask it like that, it'd just be telling you what's going on, and then you...

[00:29:58] George Coleman: Well, we have some, there are some, aside from the regular program...

[00:30:01] Justin McMillen: Or...

[00:30:04] George Coleman: I think it's ten or twelve graduate assignments.

[00:30:09] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:30:10] George Coleman: That for guys who have graduated and moved on, that they need a little help with directing that. We have some assignments that are separate from the current program.

[00:30:22] Justin McMillen: What's your favorite assignment?

[00:30:31] George Coleman: Well, I think for me, calling it a favorite, the one I've learned the most from, will be number seven.

[00:30:44] Justin McMillen: Number seven? Yeah, definitely. It's interesting that it ended up being number seven.

[00:30:48] George Coleman: I had, you know, lucky.

[00:30:50] Justin McMillen: Lucky number seven.

[00:30:51] George Coleman: I had one of our guys... he's been gone eight years, I got a call from him last month. First thing he talked about was the burial ceremony that I did with him, because of number seven.

[00:31:12] Justin McMillen: Yeah, I hear it all the time, people absolutely talk about that kind of stuff years later.

[00:31:19] George Coleman: I try... same thing you were talking about earlier, the guys at that point understand that these amazing things happen, and I don't really feel a need to figure out why.

[00:31:32] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:31:33] George Coleman: I can just enjoy that moment completely. And that's what we do.

[00:31:41] Justin McMillen: That's so interesting.

[00:31:43] George Coleman: Like, one of the guys, can I tell you about one?

[00:31:45] Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:46] George Coleman: One of the most memorable... well, I don't know if it's the most memorable, but it was...

[00:31:51] Justin McMillen: [crosstalk]

[00:31:52] George Coleman: Yeah, I think it was, the guy was older and had a lot of disconnect with family because of jail time. And when his... I think it was his dad or his uncle, he was so opposed to him, he couldn't go to the funeral. It was physically impossible because he was incarcerated.

[00:32:21] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:32:22] George Coleman: And just over the years, that guilt, that feeling bad about it. So we did a ceremony, and he was really extra connected to the writing throughout.

[00:32:37] Justin McMillen: To it.

[00:32:38] George Coleman: Was even more meaningful for him, I think, because of that. But I took him out to this area we go to in the woods. I tell him, go out in the woods and find a spot that you like. And I give him a bag with a shovel and a stool, and we give him a box. You sit down on the stool and you dig a hole for the box, and you read your letter to that person. And then when you're all done, box everything up, put the dirt back, bring the bag, and come back. So he's walking back to me after he's gone like 40 minutes or so. He's walking across this lawn area from the woods, the closest lawn area to me, and I'm sitting in the van waiting for him. And as he walks across, I'm watching him, it's probably 50, 60 yards, and about halfway to me, he looks directly at me, and then he looked up in the air, and then he fell to his knees, just straight down. So I'm watching him, and he's smiling, there's this big, beautiful smile on his face.

[00:34:03] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:34:04] George Coleman: And then he gets back up and walks slowly back to the van. I said, man, what's...

[00:34:10] Justin McMillen: What's going on? Something looks...

[00:34:13] George Coleman: Like there's something going on there. Because normally when we do that, we don't talk about that moment, we wait a couple days. But I said, something's going on here, can you tell me what it is? He said, yeah, and he handed me a little photograph. It was the older guy, his uncle or whoever. The photograph was the guy and the client as a little boy, about 8 or 10 years old. And he's showing it to me, like, "Look at this, look at this." I said, okay. He said, "The whole way I've been carrying that photograph around for 20 years, I've never seen a smile on his face." So, he'd been looking at that photograph for 20 years, and the man always had a frown on his face in the picture.

[00:35:19] Justin McMillen: Now the question is, did he change the picture, or did he not? Was he incapable of seeing it before? I don't know. I like the idea of the picture changing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:34] George Coleman: That's what he settled on.

[00:35:36] Justin McMillen: Sure.

[00:35:37] George Coleman: That's what he...

[00:35:38] Justin McMillen: Believes. Beautiful. Yeah. Some magical things happen. Yeah. I bet, that's great.

[00:35:51] George Coleman: We just have one. Is there...

[00:35:52] Justin McMillen: Is there, like, a graveyard somewhere in Costa Mesa of just little boxes with letters in them?

[00:35:58] George Coleman: There's like 3 or 4 different places we go to.

[00:36:00] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:36:01] George Coleman: But we make sure, you know, the guys know that if you hit something...

[00:36:06] Justin McMillen: Move through it. Yeah, don't dig up somebody else's. Yeah. What do you think it is that's happening to people when they're writing? Like, why do you think it has so much healing power? Not what you've read, maybe you can tell me what you've read too, but what do you think? What is it?

[00:36:35] George Coleman: Honestly, I think... I don't know, there's two things at play, I think. We've talked about this before, about the curtain. Understanding everybody coming in has a curtain, and the stuff hiding behind the curtain is usually the stuff that leads to bad behavior. Sure, nine times out of ten. So us being able to get to that stuff behind the curtain is really critical. But most of the guys we work with have made a promise to themselves about that stuff behind the curtain, that they will never ever talk about it to anybody. They've made that promise. But guess what, they'll write about it. And then when they come in and read it, now it's out there, and it absolutely loses all power.

[00:37:37] Justin McMillen: That's so interesting. It seems like it could be wrong, but it seems like it is a behind-the-curtain thing. It isn't about how you're feeling in the day.

[00:37:49] George Coleman: No, and we don't spend any time talking to guys about what they use, or any of that. Nothing. None of that. It's about the curtain.

[00:37:57] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:37:58] George Coleman: That curtain, and whatever's behind that curtain, that's what drives people to use.

[00:38:02] Justin McMillen: Yeah, that's why we say we don't treat addiction, we treat the things that cause addiction. You know, it's...

[00:38:09] George Coleman: As soon as that stuff comes out from behind the curtain, it loses all its power.

[00:38:15] Justin McMillen: Do you think that's people's belief systems? Like, that's how their belief systems are? I guess I should define belief system. There's a theory that says human beings, we all have sort of a list of beliefs. I am this, I think that, I like this, I don't like that. Think of it like, on a sheet of paper, one after another. And it doesn't live in the front of our head, it's behind the scenes. It's behind the curtain, is the theory. And the theory also is, through studies of the brain and how brain activity works, we've learned that the brain tries really hard all day long to ignore the environment. There's so much stimulus that we actually use more calories in our brain tuning things out than we do trying to pay attention. That's A.D.D., the opposite of that, where you can't tune stuff out. So there's this process going on all the time with thinking, which is paying attention to only what matters. That would be like the headlines in the newspaper, pay attention only to what matters. Well, how do you know what matters? The theory is that what matters is going to be based on what's written behind the curtain, that set of beliefs. So, for example, if I believe Justin is a piece of shit, then I'm only going to find things in the world that support that belief. I'll tune everything else out because I've already established that's what matters most. In other words, it's like you wear a set of lenses that you look at the world through, it's almost like that's the writing on the lens. So I wonder, again, these aren't my ideas, these are frameworks like the reticular activating system and stuff. I wonder if the writing program is a way for people to take their belief system, and through these prompts, start to redefine the things that have shaped them. Yeah.

[00:40:47] George Coleman: That's why, for most of the time it's been in operation, it's basically been broken down into three parts. Part one is about the first ten or so meetings, it's about rebuilding my self-esteem, if I'm the client. And as we get through everything else we're doing, they start feeling good about who they are and what they are. And then the second stage, up to about 18, is about challenging some of the things you're talking about. Because now he's feeling better, he's feeling stronger, because we don't want to poke while he's still in pain. So we let him heal a little bit, and then we start to challenge those things and offer an alternative approach to them. And then the third stage, the last six assignments, is basically about fine-tuning all the things that work for him. So in that last stage, he defines his recipe.

[00:42:14] Justin McMillen: That's amazing.

[00:42:15] George Coleman: And the other part of what we were talking about earlier, about the curtain, the other piece I think a lot of people don't really feel, but I think part of the reason it works so well is because at their...

[00:42:34] Justin McMillen: Core.

[00:42:36] George Coleman: People want to matter. They want, like... I want people to understand that I was here. So I want to matter. And one way that everybody can matter is by telling their story, and finding a way to coach around people is kind of what we do.

[00:42:57] Justin McMillen: That's so beautiful. That's amazing.

[00:43:00] George Coleman: It's simple.

[00:43:01] Justin McMillen: Yeah, well, it is. But it's not. I mean, it's, you know.

[00:43:03] George Coleman: And also there's the idea of, kindergarten or first grade, the first time a teacher puts a pen or crayon in your hand and has you do the letters of the alphabet, and is really forceful about making sure they're done right. I don't think that goes away. So when people do sit down and write, they don't bullshit.

[00:43:28] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:43:29] George Coleman: They don't.

[00:43:30] Justin McMillen: Write. Yeah, that makes sense. I think what you're talking about... let me start over. I think that, as far as I can tell, and I'm no expert in this, I've just watched a lot of it now with different people trying different things and reading about stuff. I think that therapy in general, people behave a certain way based on a set of beliefs or conditions, or the way their mind is structured through their experiences. And psychotherapy, or talk therapy, or all therapies, the objective is to try to restructure, reframe that way of thinking. And I think naked writing, what you've done, is, as far as I can tell, the most powerful way to do what everyone's trying to do. And I remember early on when you were talking about writing with your hand, you know, versus typing, and then, as you know, when we started this conversation, we talked about flow states. I would not be at all surprised if this particular way of doing things becomes a gold standard, maybe after you and I are gone. But, I mean, since the days of humans painting on cave walls with their fingers, there's something going on between the brain and the hand, getting symbols out of the mind and into abstractions. And as we move farther into typing and things like that, it's like it starts getting lost. And it's like anything, you throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's like, wait a minute, hold on.

[00:45:34] George Coleman: Let's...

[00:45:35] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[00:45:35] George Coleman: I guess I'm...

[00:45:36] Justin McMillen: Out. And yeah.

[00:45:37] George Coleman: Maybe we can have some balance here.

[00:45:39] Justin McMillen: Yeah, no, I love it. I think it's, yeah, it's always so cool for me to be on this, because people don't know my relationship with you, or they don't know I know much about the writing program or anything. And I get to be a fly on the wall a lot and hear people talk about it very candidly. And our clients, they're pretty honest, they'll say what they don't like about stuff, you know? I've never heard a client say that they don't like the writing program. I have heard that they're not doing as well as they should because they're not giving it the time, or they're avoiding it, right, for that. But I've never heard that they don't like it, or that it's not useful. I've heard people say stuff like they don't know how to write, or they're a bad writer. And then it's usually the first week, you know, because they haven't seen you guys do your magic with them yet. But yeah, you genuinely hear the same kind of outcomes, there's themes that run all through it, right, and it echoes what you've been saying for years. So, I think there's going to be people watching this who have been through Tree House Recovery in the past, or maybe people who have never been to Tree House Recovery at all but are really interested in writing as a tool to heal. And I'm curious what you would tell the audience, if somebody wanted to start using writing as a way to process their feelings, to try to make themselves feel better, to work through things, what would you tell them? If somebody called you and said, "George, I really want to start writing to help me get through this," and you couldn't be there, how would you advise them to move forward?

[00:47:48] George Coleman: I'd want them to connect with somebody, a counselor maybe, to at least let that counselor know what they want to do, because, remember, the best counselors don't tell you what to do. So go to a counselor, create a relationship with that counselor, based on the fact that you want to explore the idea of writing as a tool.

[00:48:26] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:48:27] George Coleman: And to be able to, because it can be pretty emotional. And when somebody's starting out, we don't want them, I wouldn't want them, doing it on their own.

[00:48:39] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:48:40] George Coleman: I'd want them to start to explore it, but under some kind of guidance, supervision, whatever you want to call it, so if something goes haywire, you've got somebody there.

[00:48:51] Justin McMillen: So that's great.

[00:48:52] George Coleman: And then once they have that, then they can decide how to go about it and make it their own.

[00:48:58] Justin McMillen: I think that's good, it makes a lot of sense. And I think people who are listening to this who maybe have a counselor and they're stuck, and they want to use writing... what are the basic ground rules, coach me right now. So if I was to go to my counselor and say, "I want to... I've heard about this writing thing, I was listening to this podcast, and these guys were talking about writing, what they do at Tree House Recovery. I live in Iowa, and I've been seeing this counselor for a year, and I really want to try writing." What should I tell them? I don't want to hurt their feelings. How should I explain to them that this needs to go...

[00:49:40] George Coleman: To...

[00:49:42] Justin McMillen: If I want to start writing, right, so let's just make up a name, let's say Marilyn is my counselor.

[00:49:47] George Coleman: Okay.

[00:49:47] Justin McMillen: I want to start writing. I listened to this podcast, I liked what you have to say. I'm going to bring a notepad in to Marilyn, and I'm going to tell her we're going to do some writing. What do I do? What do I say to her?

[00:49:59] George Coleman: I'm going to tell her that I'm interested in exploring it.

[00:50:04] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:50:04] George Coleman: But that I don't want to do it alone, and I want her help.

[00:50:08] Justin McMillen: Okay, explain. So if I'm Marilyn, you want to explore what, George?

[00:50:14] George Coleman: The process of writing as a healing tool.

[00:50:16] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[00:50:17] George Coleman: And if Marilyn is reluctant, or she's not interested, then I ask if she has the phone number of someone...

[00:50:28] Justin McMillen: Someone more open? Sure. Yeah.

[00:50:30] George Coleman: You know, it's not about her. It's a partnership. It's got to be a partnership.

[00:50:38] Justin McMillen: I think that's great.

[00:50:39] George Coleman: I think it's why we never tell guys what to do.

[00:50:41] Justin McMillen: Yeah, and I think it's really good, it seems silly to talk about this in this way, but I think it's good, because I think there will be a significant number of people who listen to this that don't have the option to come to Tree House Recovery, that would love to be able to work on some things and don't know what to do. I mean, it's like having a guidance counselor in high school, like, all right, man, whatever it is, I'd like to write some stuff, and I want to share it with you, and I need you to help me, right. Just like you did with the counselor at the VA.

[00:51:20] George Coleman: You're right. And, you know, I have done writing programs with people outside of Tree House Recovery, with adults, some male, some female. I took out any prompt that was related to use or addiction. They still experienced some of the same things, like the self-doubt. Having a program broken down like that still works, even with somebody who hasn't had any experience with addiction.

[00:52:08] Justin McMillen: Would you say anyone could benefit?

[00:52:10] George Coleman: Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:52:12] Justin McMillen: Yeah, that makes sense. You know my brother, right?

[00:52:20] George Coleman: I would want...

[00:52:21] Justin McMillen: Both of them. So the one who lives on the East Coast, he was telling me today, he's been writing every day in the morning. He writes about what he's grateful for every morning.

[00:52:32] George Coleman: Good.

[00:52:33] Justin McMillen: Yeah, he's been very good about it. I think he's in his third month of not missing. Good. Yeah, it's his thing, it's making a huge impact on him.

[00:52:42] George Coleman: Yeah, I've heard it's such an effective tool.

[00:52:46] Justin McMillen: And he brought it up... I was having a rough day today, it's in my head a little bit, and I called him, and I was venting, and he was listening to me, and, you ready for this, he said you gotta look on the bright side. And that's not really how Clayton is, my brother can be more of the pessimist of the two of us. And then he brought up his journal, and how, he said, "Actually, one of the things you mentioned, I write about that in my gratitude journal all the time." It's like a whole perception shift.

[00:53:33] George Coleman: Yeah. So it's powerful.

[00:53:36] Justin McMillen: Yeah, it is. I just think it's amazing, you know, we're working on re-playing with the mission statement for this place, and everybody's like... Bobby, Clayton, all of us, we've never landed on one and pointed at it and said, "Oh, that's what I want to say for this place." I'm not talking about the podcast, I'm talking about Tree House Recovery, or Remote Work. And everybody's trying to come up with different things, breaking the chains of addiction and this and that. And I was like, well, I think when I really boil it down, we have a mission and we're very aligned. I don't think we get to declare a new one. I think we just need to somehow write down what's happening, that's my takeaway, and I don't think anyone disagrees. It's really about healing and growing. And that's not sexy to say, but it's very simple. I think that's what we're here for, we heal people, we heal ourselves. People who are growing... their whole goal is to never stop growing, or learning, growing and learning, same thing in my mind. And growing, even growing better at what we do, improving it. And there's just this constant healing, I think. While I was bringing that up, what struck me is that some of the most extraordinary things about Tree House Recovery is that here we are, in a place where almost every part of it was created out of pain, that then became wisdom, and then compassion and care and love for others. And I think that's the best possible scenario. I mean, I hear your story of where the writing program you created came from, out of one of the most painful and terrible periods of your life.

[00:55:55] George Coleman: I would say the most...

[00:55:57] Justin McMillen: So in the middle of all of this, surrounded by hell and craziness, an idea is born, right, that first heals you through your efforts and the guidance of this woman. And then that, over time, becomes this tool. And now it has this exponential effect. And here we are talking about it on this podcast. And it's, like, in a lot of pieces of what we do over here are like that. You know, I wasn't really... it's funny, whenever we'd be interviewing a new guy, I'd think they're more like an art type, played in these sports or whatever, I walk in there with my beard and everything, like a dude's dude, you know? And I am, but I see these guys who look terrified, you see all these jocks in there, and it looks intimidating and scary, and I feel like I know exactly how they feel. I didn't play, I did a little bit of basketball, but, you know, you and I had different upbringings, I was more of a loner, didn't play organized sports, and was really kind of afraid of all things male that were loud and booming. And I think it's not by chance that this place is totally all about male camaraderie, and that's healed me too. That's a piece I think is so important, that I brought here, you know what I mean? And I got that in many ways out of the work I was doing with you at the workshop. I remember when Tony told me, like, I said, "Yeah, I don't trust men," and he's like, "Well, you realize you're a man, right?" Like, oh. You know, like, man, when you realize that, that's gonna be a problem when you look in the mirror every day. So you may think that men are loud and obnoxious and this and that, but the truth is, that's part of you too. My point is, there are so many opposite sides of the coin of pain around here, that are related to all of us and who we are.

[00:58:28] George Coleman: Yeah, and it's that.

[00:58:29] Justin McMillen: Was a long-winded way.

[00:58:31] George Coleman: Right. But yeah, and it's those same guys you're talking about.

[00:58:36] Justin McMillen: That I...

[00:58:39] George Coleman: If you want to call them beasts or jocks or whatever you want to call them, you know, aside from that whole part of their being, they still have that other part behind the curtain.

[00:58:56] Justin McMillen: Oh yeah, everybody does. And even in those environments, people can be alone. I mean, we've had guys come through here who've done 20 years in the military and special operations community, and they say they feel closer to the guys here than they felt there. So, yeah, it looks like that. I think what I've learned is that the reason men love football and organized sports is actually deeply rooted in our DNA, and competition's part of that. The need to express ourselves, aggression, caring for one another, war, fighting together for survival, collective struggle unifies people, these are genetic predispositions. It's how we got here, and it's just turned into these games that we play now. They're really just evolutionary traits being expressed. And I think if you understand that, you realize it doesn't matter if you're a ballet dancer or a football player, you have to do that. And typically, if you're somebody who's really afraid of that, you need to do it the most. We had a guy who just got discharged, who self-proclaimed when he came in here, "I am not this type of person, I don't do this kind of stuff." And when he did the beach pause, he was running up and down the beach, screaming and pounding his chest. And this guy's from Portland, Oregon, he's got a little bit more of a liberal way of being, you know, that's not bad or good, just kind of the opposite of pound your chest, rah-rah man-guy. But when I was talking to him about it, I said, isn't it more like tribal, like you're dancing in a loincloth around a fire? He's like, "Yeah, yeah, I can see it that way." If it's that way, it makes sense, but if it's like football... So I think people need to do that kind of thing, I think it's in us, and if we don't have that, you can be hard. But yeah, it's good to talk to you about writing, I think a lot of people in this world could benefit from writing more, myself included. It even makes people physically healthier, too. Want to talk about that?

[01:01:41] George Coleman: Too?

[01:01:42] Justin McMillen: Physically healthier. Writing can make people physically healthier, happier.

[01:01:49] George Coleman: I think it goes back to something you were talking about earlier, the idea of the curtain. Not to beat a dead horse here, but, for example, let me give you an example. If the thing behind my curtain that I promise I'm not going to talk to anybody about is a fractured relationship with my father, that's my example, I promise nobody is ever going to hear about that, then what happens is what we referred to earlier, they call it inhibition in psychology.

[01:02:43] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[01:02:44] George Coleman: So what happens is, every time I'm around somebody who brings up the word "father" or talks about his father, I'm fighting it, because I don't want to seem like I connect with that, so I'm stifling it.

[01:03:01] Justin McMillen: Okay.

[01:03:02] George Coleman: And it just becomes psychological work, over and over. Every time I hear that, every time I see a movie where there's a father-son thing, or anything that brings up that topic, my fist is clenching like this, and I'm fighting it down, and that's inhibition. They've studied it, and they found, over like 3 or 4 years, that people who do that, who don't let that shift come from behind the curtain, they have to seek medical help 40% more than people who address it. I believe.

[01:03:46] Justin McMillen: It.

[01:03:47] George Coleman: And it's what you're talking about, that stress, that psychological stress and depression, it attacks the immune system. That's where the stress goes. So that just goes to show why they get sick more.

[01:04:06] Justin McMillen: So if I've got some trauma, something that happened in my life, and it's back there behind the curtain, and it's always there, and in order to keep myself from kind of freaking out, super simple, right, I'm constantly in this state of, like, vigilance.

[01:04:28] George Coleman: Yeah.

[01:04:28] Justin McMillen: Is that the idea?

[01:04:29] George Coleman: Yeah, you could even get to the point of...

[01:04:31] Justin McMillen: That sounds tiring.

[01:04:32] George Coleman: It is. Yes, it is tiring.

[01:04:35] Justin McMillen: Yeah, and you get...

[01:04:36] George Coleman: Sick. And it gets to the point where, not only does that go on, but I would take it a step further and make sure that when that occurs, I'm going to put myself in the spotlight and change the subject. I'm going to talk about sports, just to veer away from that.

[01:05:00] Justin McMillen: It sounds like you've actually... I don't know, almost like you've heard stories of that. I do wonder how many people are walking around in this world that need to do that. You know, I worked a design gig way back, doing drawings for different people, and one was for a police officer. He would come home, and I'd always get there before him, sitting at the table waiting with his wife, doing some drawings for this project he wanted done. And he would come home, and I know part of it's because he's a cop, there's something about the uniform too, but he had a bar right at the front door, and he'd walk in, and he'd put a glass down for ice, his wife always had ice there for him, and then he'd pour gin in, and just down it, standing there, he wouldn't even look at me. It was like he knew I was sitting to his left, but he didn't even look. And then you'd see him standing there, and then it was like another one. And it was so extreme, there was nothing subtle about it, you saw him change, transform, and it was like the tension he was holding onto was releasing. And I remember thinking, how painful that would be to carry all day. And of course this guy was drinking, but I've had people, there's people listening to this right now who have that kind of tension in their life over something they've done, said, or been through, some belief they have, that are in a constant state of tension and don't know what it feels like to actually relax.

[01:07:02] George Coleman: Yeah, we run into it all the time.

[01:07:07] Justin McMillen: That's why, years ago, we said, what's the measurement of success for naked writing? And you remember what you said? Peacefulness.

[01:07:18] George Coleman: Oh, okay.

[01:07:19] Justin McMillen: Yeah, I was like, what the hell does that mean, kind of hippie-dippie? Peacefulness, how do I measure peacefulness, George? But that's what it is, right? Somebody whose stuff is finally...

[01:07:30] George Coleman: Stuff is...

[01:07:31] Justin McMillen: Gone. Yeah, it's gone.

[01:07:33] George Coleman: Completely gone. It's a combination of that, and being in that moment when it all falls into place, and I'm completely, 100% out of victim mode.

[01:07:48] Justin McMillen: Yeah. I sleep better.

[01:07:52] George Coleman: Too. And that's a very peaceful feeling.

[01:07:56] Justin McMillen: Dude, have you ever heard of people telling you that their stomach problems get better from writing?

[01:08:01] George Coleman: Oh, yeah.

[01:08:02] Justin McMillen: I can imagine that.

[01:08:03] George Coleman: Sleep, right, all of it, it's all connected.

[01:08:07] Justin McMillen: Sure.

[01:08:08] George Coleman: Yeah.

[01:08:09] Justin McMillen: Anxiety. What about... you've also trained a lot of people to deliver this kind of therapy over the years. Have you figured out the magic set of ingredients for somebody to be a good therapist for this?

[01:08:33] George Coleman: I don't think so. It's just so individual.

[01:08:36] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[01:08:37] George Coleman: Yeah, I think it's more about the person, and...

[01:08:47] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[01:08:48] George Coleman: I don't know that it's...

[01:08:50] Justin McMillen: The gut thing.

[01:08:51] George Coleman: I think it's more... I hate to say this, but I think it's more about knowing what we don't want.

[01:09:07] Justin McMillen: Like my son Finn, like, "Finn, what do you want to do when you grow up?" "Well, I know what I don't want to do." Right.

[01:09:14] George Coleman: If I got that squared away, then I have a clear path.

[01:09:18] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[01:09:18] George Coleman: To the other side.

[01:09:19] Justin McMillen: Like, "I don't want to be an astronaut because that sounds dangerous." Okay, alright.

[01:09:26] George Coleman: Yeah, like, if I'm introduced to a guy talking about the idea of maybe being a literary therapist, and he has to duck to walk in the door because his ego is so inflated.

[01:09:43] Justin McMillen: You know, that's...

[01:09:45] George Coleman: That's a bad example, but that's kind of...

[01:09:47] Justin McMillen: What I'm talking about. I get it, that's the talker. My understanding is, in fact, one of your staff told me a story once, he said he just did a session and he spoke three sentences the entire time. I asked, was that good? And he said, yes.

[01:10:16] George Coleman: Every guy I've trained, I've told him about the most powerful groups I've ever done, the ones where I haven't said anything. Just introduced whatever the topic is, and then it goes from there.

[01:10:33] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[01:10:34] George Coleman: I'm just there in case something goes wrong.

[01:10:37] Justin McMillen: Yeah, it's like you're a guide, like a steward of something, creating space.

[01:10:44] George Coleman: Yeah.

[01:10:45] Justin McMillen: Did you hear about the new guy who wants to work for... he's on the East Coast, you're going to hear about it, he's out in Tennessee. You know him, I'm not going to say his name, but he's military, big guy, amazing person. And he's chomping at the bit to work for you, he wants to work in Tennessee for Brandon. Oh, really? And he's like, "I want to do writing." He said he'll get on a plane tomorrow and go spend time in Georgia, if at all possible.

[01:11:17] George Coleman: So Georgia...

[01:11:20] Justin McMillen: He already forgot, yeah. No, it's cool though. When I heard about it, I figured for sure you suggested it, because he just has the vibe, but I could be wrong. Maybe you think so too, I don't want to say too much. But yeah, he has a very gentle, gentle giant kind of way about him. So that could be good.

[01:11:55] George Coleman: You know what I say on campus, right?

[01:11:56] Justin McMillen: What's that?

[01:11:57] George Coleman: Terrible time?

[01:11:58] Justin McMillen: Terrible time. Did you go to Stacy Bone this morning? No? You haven't been going?

[01:12:08] George Coleman: I did, but with the schedule shift, there's a few days where I have sessions here early, so I don't go down there, I come right in from home.

[01:12:21] Justin McMillen: Gotcha. Yeah, the place gives me indigestion now, I love it, but I haven't been in there as much. I'm on a diet right now, it's a little one.

[01:12:41] George Coleman: Yeah, I still go. But it's just different.

[01:12:47] Justin McMillen: Yeah.

[01:12:48] George Coleman: I think, you know, everybody's going to have their own perception, but for me, my relationship to that place changed when Bruno took over. He gave that place some personality. He's just different, you know.

[01:13:19] Justin McMillen: Yeah, you'd think.

[01:13:20] George Coleman: Yeah, but that to me, that's the change.

[01:13:25] Justin McMillen: It's crazy though, how it's still the food, like, my mom was talking about the croissants, and my sister too, they're saying the only place you can get croissants like that is France. And my dad's like, I don't even think they're that good, to be honest, but there's something about the food there, it's a different level. It's weird.

[01:13:51] George Coleman: I don't know, Chris explained it to me one time, from Delta Cafe, he explained that Bruno went back to France and brought back a starter. That's what it was called.

[01:14:10] Justin McMillen: Yeah, they have a piece of it in the safe there, that's how much, and it's old, super old. That's the thing with sourdough, you know, sort of thing, and she's had the same one now for four years or something like that, and she feeds it, you get to feed them, keep it alive.

[01:14:33] George Coleman: Yeah.

[01:14:33] Justin McMillen: You add flour, and the freezers and...

[01:14:39] George Coleman: Places. Pretty consistent.

[01:14:41] Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's good, it's good.

[01:14:49] George Coleman: So, yeah, I recommend it.

[01:14:54] Justin McMillen: Yeah, I think it's fascinating, I think writers and their processes are incredibly fascinating. Writing to heal, writing for healing, writing as therapy, that's incredible. And what you've done at Tree House Recovery with it, and the amount of people you've affected, and all of you guys you've trained to do this have affected, is beyond what either of us could have imagined.

[01:15:31] George Coleman: Yeah, definitely.

[01:15:34] Justin McMillen: And it's just getting started.

[01:15:36] George Coleman: I think so.

[01:15:37] Justin McMillen: Yeah, it is. Well, thank you, it was a beautiful conversation. I think it's going to be a good one for you to share with people about writing, and for the audience to hear a little bit about what we do. I've heard about it a thousand times, and the way you said it today, it's pretty compelling, there's a lot there.

[01:16:06] George Coleman: So I feel like we're wrapping up.

[01:16:11] Justin McMillen: Not necessarily. I was going to ask you, is there anything else you want people to hear? Or do you have anything you want to ask me?

[01:16:26] George Coleman: Well, that's what I was going to ask you.

[01:16:28] Justin McMillen: Was that...

[01:16:29] George Coleman: If there was anything else that we needed to.

[01:16:31] Justin McMillen: Know? I'm curious, if there's anything... just assuming people watching this have been through Tree House Recovery, are thinking about Tree House Recovery, or thinking about writing, you know, I can imagine the title of this is going to be something around writing as therapy, Tree House Recovery writing, using writing to overcome addiction or deal with things. Is there anything else related to writing that you think people should know? This will have millions of views, so what would you like people to know? By the way, we're going to be doing more of this.

[01:17:22] George Coleman: I think, I think we've shown over the last decade or so that...

[01:17:35] Justin McMillen: It's...

[01:17:37] George Coleman: When it's presented the right way, and cared for the way we care for it, it's really a strong tool. But, as you know as well as I do, when you don't use it at all, it gets rusty. So it's about creating a pattern for people, I think, you know, promising yourself, like we talked about with the morning routine, promising yourself, "I'm going to, every day, even if it's just a note or a letter to somebody, sit down and write for 10 or 15 minutes, and I'm going to do that for two weeks." And then see how it goes, maybe do more, maybe not, but just start doing it.

[01:18:29] Justin McMillen: That's beautiful, perfect. What about... I've got one more. Aspirationally, maybe every single Tree House Recovery graduate will see this, everybody who's ever done naked writing, so 3,000 people maybe, some of them out of the program for up to 12 years, and many of them think about picking a pen back up and writing. What advice would you give them? Talk directly to them, think of every face you've ever touched, which is a lot.

[01:19:14] George Coleman: What I would start with is what I always suggest to graduates as they're moving on down the road: pick an assignment that you wrote here, and then write it currently, and you can look at the growth you see, because it's right in front of you.

[01:19:42] Justin McMillen: If they don't know what the assignments were, is there a way for them to get a hold of you, or somebody from Tree House Recovery, to ask that question?

[01:19:48] George Coleman: Oh, yeah.

[01:19:49] Justin McMillen: Okay, good. I hope, if you're listening, that you do what he said, that you grab hold of something and get back to writing. This needs to be reported, this was the most powerful intervention that we do at Tree House Recovery. So the cool thing is, you can do that.

[01:20:12] George Coleman: I'm a big...

[01:20:13] Justin McMillen: Fan. Yeah, the good thing is, you can do that yourself. So consider getting back to it.

[01:20:19] George Coleman: Yeah. Always.

[01:20:21] Justin McMillen: All right.

[01:20:22] George Coleman: And make it a priority.

[01:20:24] Justin McMillen: Make it a priority. Yeah. And do it in the morning.

[01:20:30] George Coleman: Start out with that.

[01:20:31] Justin McMillen: Yeah. All right. Well, thank you, George.

[01:20:35] George Coleman: Thank you.

[01:20:36] Justin McMillen: Have a beautiful day.