Transcript

(0:20) Justin McMillen: Like, trying to draw you in. It's silent. I don't know. So let's. Yeah. Feel free to talk. I'm not going. I don't know. I'm going to try to remove, like, my sense of, like, this has to be really good, a lot of people are going to see it, and just have fun with it.

(0:41) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. Okay. Because I do this every day, but I don't get to talk. I know. We're putting you on the spot. We were asking you last night like, hey, could you do a portrait of me while we do this? Yeah. I think it's asking a lot because this isn't typical for either of us. So this may or may not work, but we'll try it and see if it goes well.

(0:58) Justin McMillen: But no expectations. So. Sure. So how do you want me? Let's see the other side of your face that you like. Let's try not to look at my face. Yeah. Okay. Watch this. Let's see. I think when you were looking this way, it looked like... let's see. That's... wait. I was going to say the mic was in the way.

(1:24) Ethan Espinoza: But. Yeah, you could look. You can look that way. Or can I see you looking this way? Like... like, when you're doing this, what are you looking for? I'm looking for the lighting and which one is more helpful for me. Okay. Because when I'm drawing, I'm looking for, like, a high contrast. I'm hoping with this, like, I'm looking for a full spectrum of, like, light to dark. And when things... because I'm drawing, I only have... it's sort of like they don't have that full spectrum, the drawing could look kind of flat. Okay. Because the way that I communicate that it's three-dimensional is by having those changes in, like, value, which is light to dark. Okay. Yeah. So just looking at which shades of black all the way to white. You can get. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Okay. But both are pretty similar, actually. Okay. So is there something more interesting on one side or the other? Mixed laughing because now I'm going to be staring right at the camera. So, I can look this way or I can look... there's not a lot interesting in this studio.

(2:39) Justin McMillen: Besides. Let's see, let's have you just look at the drawing. Okay. That's cool. Okay. I like that. All right. All right. So we get on. So, isolation. Yeah. This probably won't be as long as our normal podcast is. I don't know how long I can sit here like this, but.

(2:59) Ethan Espinoza: Oh, well, I'm going to try to get this done in, like, ten minutes.

(2:59) Justin McMillen: Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Amazing. All right. So let's see. You mentioned the word faith. And I think in our first conversation we talked about God a little bit. What role does God play in the courage that you've had to step into the career that you've chosen?

(3:32) Ethan Espinoza: Wow. That's a really cool question. The role that God has played in the courage that I have to go for it... let's see. So, like, prayer, prayer for me is talking to God. And it's like breathing for me. I feel like God's presence. And I have just faith that he hears me and knows more about us than we do. It says in the Scripture that God knows when we sit down, when we rise up, etc. So I think having a belief that God cares about me and loves me gives me strength to, like, make decisions, knowing that if I fail or if I succeed, like, God is still my portion at the end of the day, not necessarily my success. So I almost feel like satisfied in God already. And so that kind of like lowers the stakes a little bit, or it gives you more courage with anything. It's like, well, even if I totally lose at this, like, God loves me. And so that's okay. So that's helpful. Another one is, I think the Bible gives people the command that whatever you do, do it with all your heart as unto the Lord rather than man. Because he's the one that you serve. And it says it will approach... where it's not even just ultimately for myself, it's actually out of love for God. And so when I'm working on a piece, like, I didn't pray before drawing you, but often times, whether it's out loud or in my head, I just say, dear Lord, like, please help me to do an excellent job in this for you, and then I'll get started. So it makes it also relational too. And it feels more purposeful because it's ultimately like, even just to make somebody's day or out of my own enjoyment for it. It's like to worship God. And there's a verse, like the verse that I mentioned, it says, whatever you do. So God gives us a lot of freedom, which is kind of scary. It's nice when you have an employer and they give you like, do this and this, you know, and you just kind of... you don't really have to worry about. I don't know, is this the right thing? Because you were told that's what you have to do. But with God, for a lot of things, like, we're able to choose and we have that freedom and that responsibility. And so knowing that I had a choice to do art was part of what gave me the courage to do it. Like, hey, I could do this. And it's like, okay, before God. So I'd say that, as long as you do it with all your heart. Yeah.

(7:34) Justin McMillen: I mean, I wish people, even if they didn't believe in God, would understand that. I just think that's the key to everything, is to go all in. I tell people that, like, you know what I do for work. And a lot of the guys that come, especially when they go on job search, a lot of them are unemployed when they come to us, and it's like, I don't want to get this menial job or this, and... I might just go there and be the very best person they've ever had working there. Just put everything into it, and then like, watch, you'll be running the place before you know it. And that's the thing is, like, putting everything into what you do. And just watch how everything around you grows. And if you feel compelled to do it and if you're passionate about it, that's a whole other thing. You know, you as an artist, I like, you're creating. And I think about this sometimes. Do you think that there's some different kind of relationship to God for people who are creators? Because it's almost like that's the whole... it seems to be the theme of God, right? Is creation. And do you think that there's some sort of intersection there, or is it not about that?

(8:29) Ethan Espinoza: I think as people we're all called to create something. But I don't believe that artists necessarily have like... I don't know, are gatekeeping this special relationship with God because they are able to paint, or they're an architect, or they invented something. But like, that's something that we could appreciate. Even if you're, I don't know, a mailman or something like that. Which is kind of interesting, like, people who do art, they don't necessarily appreciate art more than the next guy. In fact, they might take it for granted. They're like, oh, this is just what I do. Whereas I've talked to so many people who are, like, man, I love art, but I can't even draw a stick figure. You know, and so it's nice that we all get to participate in, like, enjoying things, even if it's not our profession. But yeah, I'd say that that's... That's something I think about with God, but it's more like a humbling thought. I don't feel like... I mean, God isn't this great like, we're both creatives. I look at a sunset and I think, man, I feel like a little kid playing with Play-Doh. You know, even with my best piece. But, yeah, I'd say our best attempt is to recreate what God already created.

(10:11) Justin McMillen: Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's incredible that humans make art in the first place, though. Like, it's just amazing as one of the creatures on this planet that we're doing these things. I'm obsessed with, like, the great Masters, you know, like all the cliche ones, like, especially on the sculpture side, like Michelangelo's Pieta. I think that's like, maybe one of the greatest pieces of art ever created. Which one is that? It's Mary holding Jesus after he was crucified. Have you ever seen that shot? She's got her arms out and Jesus's lifeless body is laying in her lap. And, yeah, that might be the best piece of art that people will ever make.

(11:03) Ethan Espinoza: I know exactly. Yeah, that was my guess. But it's so unbelievable. I mean, as you see his veins in his hands. And then on top of that, one of the coolest things about it was, Michelangelo was so good, that was a single piece of stone, he did it when he was 28, and he was obsessed with God as well. And so all of his work was to serve... like that's what he saw it as. It's to serve, like he was doing this for something so much bigger. And that's a theme, especially in a lot of the classical artists, is this idea of serving something greater. But what's cool about that is he could make anything anatomically perfect. And they say that if Jesus was to stand up beside Mary, Mary would be, like, 14 feet tall and Jesus would be like a normal-size human. Why that matters is because when you look at it, you can't really tell. But what it does is it produces the image of like her genuinely cradling, like, a child. But you won't know. The average person won't notice that. If you, now that I've said it to you and you look at it, you'll be like, oh yeah, she's way bigger than him. But she's sitting down, right. Yeah. So it's like he figured out, he was like, I have to make her bigger. But I also have to not make it so people would notice, so that I can allow her to be the mother and, like, care for him.

(12:26) Justin McMillen: That's so beautiful. It's so... yeah. Have you seen it in person?

(12:46) Ethan Espinoza: Oh, no. And I just went to Europe this year for the first time in my life with my family and we ended up going to Greece. I saw amazing sculptures there, but I really wanted to go to Italy. And that's, that's like the main reason. I just want to see that piece of art.

(12:46) Justin McMillen: I mean, there's other stuff he's done that's incredible too, but that's... for some reason that's the one that I'm, like, blown away by him. Yeah. I was looking at that the other day, actually, like two days ago. My parents went on a honeymoon to Italy. It wasn't a honeymoon. It was like their second honeymoon.

(13:10) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. With four kids at... that's what they talked about. Was that that sculpture. Race for kids. So where do you line up in that? Primo. Number one. Number one. Yeah. Okay. First born. The trailblazer? Yeah. And then what are the other ages? And male? Female. Two brothers and one sister. But it goes like boy, girl, boy.

(13:38) Justin McMillen: Nice. Yeah. How old is the youngest? The youngest is 26, I believe. About to turn 27. Are your parents empty nesters? Everybody's up and out.

(14:05) Ethan Espinoza: They are kind of. The friend I was talking about earlier is actually my brother, and they're watching his kid all the time.

(14:05) Justin McMillen: Oh, okay. Yeah. I bet they love that, though.

(14:05) Ethan Espinoza: They love it. Yeah. Gives me a little more time to work on my art, too. Did you all grow up here in Orange County? Are you born and raised? I grew up in Santa Clarita. Okay, but I was born in Orange County. Okay. Yeah, my parents like, they dated and had me out here. Kind of like, I don't know, this is where my real home is. Even though we lived in LA County. I'm having a hard time drawing you. Moving and trying to... so expressive, which is great. I'm really hard to sit still.

(15:08) Justin McMillen: No, you're doing good. Considering what we're doing. Usually I will... I don't know what I was thinking when I got into this, but I'll draw like... what?

(15:08) Ethan Espinoza: The way that they put it is, like, the general to specific. And so first you draw, like, the shape of the head, and then the line where the eyes are and then the nose, like where the bottom of the nose is and where the lips are and stuff. But instead I, like, fully drew your right eye before everything else. And so it's not coming together like I would hope. But it's okay. It's still really fun. Were you raised in church? Or is that something... I was, yeah. Yeah, I was raised going to church every Sunday and doing stuff throughout the week. Like there's something called AWANA, where parents drop their kids off and they do, I don't know, sports and things like that, but they also memorize, like, scripture. And they just make it fun and you get like awards and stuff. That go on your... that go on, you're like the best. I've seen the AWANA is. I know it's... you know what I'm talking about.

(16:36) Justin McMillen: I love AWANA. Has it always... has there ever been a time where you felt disconnected or you didn't think about your faith? Or has it always been there and strong?

(16:36) Ethan Espinoza: There is a time when I didn't really have faith. But I assumed I did. I didn't really think about it. I didn't question God when I was younger, like, whether God existed or not. But when I was ten and a half, I started... I don't know what it was. I remember I was in my backyard, I think, in like a tent or something, because we would set up tents as like forts in the backyard. And I just remember realizing I was so sad and heavy-hearted. And I was like, man, I remember playing... we were playing capture the flag with, like, neighborhood friends or tag or something like that, and just thinking like, man, I haven't been happy in a long time. But I had two loving parents. I had friends. Health was perfect. We had kind of like a childhood that, I don't know, was picturesque. And so that made it even worse because it was like, well, there's nothing I can change in my life. Everything's good. So why am I feeling so down? And I started thinking about things like, why are there kids that suffer even though they haven't done anything wrong? Or people that do bad things... I was ten when you were thinking about this?

(18:01) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And I was thinking, well, I know, right. Like, why was I thinking about that? But it just kind of like this reality hit me. I didn't have any traumatic experience or anything like that that, like, made me start thinking about these things. I just couldn't stop thinking about, like, is there any career that I could choose that would make me feel like it was meaningful?

(18:29) Ethan Espinoza: Because all of it seems really, like, meaningless, and then you die. And what else did I think? I was thinking about how there's people who do bad things to harm other people, and then they might get away with it. And the other person dies before basically it has, like, a happy ending or where there's justice. So I was thinking about that, and I was like, man, life's really absurd. And I couldn't think of anything to, like, really console me. I just felt that kind of deeper and deeper. And so at the time, The Lord of the Rings was in theaters and so my dad was like, hey, you can see Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers if you finish all of your homework. So I didn't finish my homework. I didn't tell my dad that. I just kind of got into the car with everybody. And I was like, dang, I just lied to my dad. And if you've seen the movie, it's like The Two Towers is more depressing, like it ends unresolved. Like Gollum is about to have Frodo and Sam eaten by a giant Black Widow. And the heaviness of my heart was like, reflected in how that film sort of ends. So I went home. I told my dad that, you know, I didn't finish my homework and asked him to forgive me, but I still felt so much guilt over it. And I was like, asked my dad if we could talk. And he said, yeah. So I started sharing with him all these things that I think I just shared with you. But on top of that, I was thinking, you know, in AWANA, from the Bible, you learn that the fruits of the spirit, which... fruit is like, if your life was a tree, like, what's the fruit that, like, people would see in it? Or, like, you would even be self-aware of. And it says it's love. Like if a person who's been transformed by God, there's certain evidence that can be seen and experienced. It would be love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self-control. And I was just thinking like, man, I don't feel peace. I don't feel joy. I don't know that I've ever felt, like, real peace. And so, like, what makes me think that I have been transformed by God and, like, am saved from going to hell, if the fruit isn't there in my life by my own experience. And so I was like, dad, I don't think I actually have a relationship with God or have been, like, saved. And my dad kept reassuring me because he's like, Ethan, like, you've prayed throughout your whole life. Like, all right, you do good. But I started feeling this sense of justice, like, man, if I were to die right now, it would be right for God to judge me for the wrong that I've done. And it was kind of like this realization that, man, the melancholy that I feel over the wrongness that's in the world, like, I'm a part of it. I'm not just, like, looking out at other people who are the problem. Like, I lied to my dad, who's been perfectly good to me, you know, and was lazy in doing my homework. Like, I've done wrong too. And I was thinking, you know, it would be right for God to punish me for this. Basically. That's super heavy. But, and I was like, well, man, if God requires obedience, like perfect obedience, and I've fallen short of that, then even if I try for the rest of my life to do good, and I do a really good job of it, I still have all of the, like, crimes I've committed against God. On my record. And so there's really, like, nothing I can do. And then it was at that moment that I was like, wait, that's why the cross happened. That's why Jesus died on the cross. It's because there was no other way. Like, there's nothing that I can do to save myself. And I just felt like hope for the first time in those, like, maybe six months that I was feeling like there's... there's no hope.

(23:20) Justin McMillen: Hell, yeah.

(23:20) Ethan Espinoza: And so I asked my dad if we could pray together. I was like 11 by this point. And I just said, like, God, I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins, that you rose him from the dead, that you've made him Lord. Like, please have mercy on me. And as I was praying that, I felt like all of a sudden this, like, feeling of love, like, go into me. That felt... and the heaviness that I felt over, like, guilt, not just for lying to my dad, but that I had just been experiencing, totally gone. And I felt so, like, light and full of joy. I was so overwhelmed. I was like, my nose was running, my eyes were like, couldn't cry harder. And I felt like God's presence was inside of me all of a sudden, and, like, totally forgiven. Like I had never done anything wrong. And I went running downstairs to my family, and I started, like, beating my chest. I was like, I'm a Christian! And. But then, like, the next day, I woke up feeling, like, close with God. And then the next day and the next day, where there was, like, I felt like each decision I was making, I was having like a dialog with God, like, would this be the right thing to do? Like, I'm going to tell this person about Jesus and stuff. And I felt like as I was obeying God, or like, to move forward further... like I was in junior high and I was invited to, like, this girl's birthday party. And all these girls were asking to, like, dance with me kind of. And they were dancing in a way that was more provocative. And I remember wanting to do it. There was like, they were, like, surrounding it. It was like five of them or something. And I felt so strong in my heart that God was saying, like, don't. You know? And then I didn't do it. And then I felt like that same, like, joy well up in me again. And I felt like so connected.

(25:23) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's incredible. I mean, I'm just going to... I can just rant like another time. My dad, shortly after that, I think it was like six months later, there's an organization called Children's Hunger Fund that they, they do just that. They raise money to feed the poor around the world. And so they actually, the founder of it, him and his wife were neighbors of ours.

(25:55) Ethan Espinoza: And my parents became, like, supporters of them, like lifetime supporters, and had this close relationship. So they invited us to go to El Salvador with them, like my dad and I. So I got to go. And it was the first time that I'd seen poverty. The first place we went was to an orphanage where there was like 150, 200 kids that don't have parents. And I remember looking at, like, some of the kids' eyes and there's just, like, such hopelessness in them. They looked, like, dark. And so we had that experience of visiting there. And towards the end, I remember feeling so strongly like, hey, you're supposed to share the gospel with them, like the kids. And I felt so much fear. But I also felt like this is something that I'm supposed to do. So I asked the adults if I could do that and if they could pray for me. And they got a translator and I stood up on a table and I was able to, like, share the gospel. I would probably say it differently if I was talking to them now, but it was the best I could do at, like, 11.

(27:13) Justin McMillen: Yeah. 11.

(27:13) Ethan Espinoza: And but then... so I'm just feeling like, man, I'm following God so closely. And there was this... there was a kid, he was older than me by maybe, like, a year or two. So it might be like 12 or 13. Anyways, he said, Ethan... I'm like, hey. I'm like, how are you able to do that? And I said something like... I just, you know when I say it was something that I felt so awful for saying like afterwards, because it was so prideful. It was something like, you just aren't brave enough or something like that. And then after I said it, I could see him feeling like he was... I don't know, just. Shrunk down, though. Yeah. Like, lesser than. And then I felt like, wow, you can erase everything that I've done that's good up to this point, because I just ruined everything. But that was good, I think, just in terms of, like, even when you're doing good in certain areas, like pride or any sin can creep up. And it's just a reminder, like, Jesus really is the only righteous one.

(28:47) Justin McMillen: Even like when we feel like we've arrived. Has this... has your relationship to God, has that carried through? Since... it's always been this way for you? You're 34. You said. Yeah. 34. Yeah. Has it...

(29:20) Ethan Espinoza: I've definitely. I think like... I've made decisions that I'm, like, ashamed of for sure as a Christian. But there hasn't been a point where I was like, all right, God, I'm going to do my own thing now. And that I'm really grateful for. And that's even the reason why I didn't do art right away. I think the way that I wanted to go about it was more like, lust for... and with God, I felt like God was telling me way earlier on, like, no, like, just draw people's faces and I'll, like, take care of the rest. And I kind of... to God I was like, well, if it's not going to be the way that I want it to be, then I'm just not going to do it. And that's why I, like, waited so long basically. And yeah. So. That's... and to be more specific, as opposed to just saying like more or less. Well, so people aren't like, what does it mean? I really wanted to go to art school and I wanted to, like, master the human body. But I felt like for me, part of that was like, I want to be able to, like, look at, you know, a woman and, like, study the anatomy and stuff and not be okay. But, and I'm not saying that that would be wrong for everybody, but just for where my heart was, it was like I could feel, like, a disconnect from God when I would go in that direction. And so, like, going to art school or, like, taking those kind of classes, where it's called figure drawing. And I had other Christians be like, hey, this is totally fine. But just for me and my own, like, relationship with God, I think I had, I would have kind of a guilty, unsettled conscience when I would do that. And so I felt kind of like, well, God, I'll never be able to succeed if I don't go to art school and take those classes. And so you're like, you gave me this gift, but then you're, like, not letting me use it. And that's messed up. That's kind of how I felt. Like, fine, then I'll go to business school.

(31:48) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's so interesting. And listening to you talk, I think about, you know, I have friends that are Christians, I have friends that are atheists. I got friends that are Buddhist. And it's always so fascinating to me to... oh, you rewind. So the work I do means that I see people that have. Worked really the flesh is just overtaken them, right? There's so much about indulgence and gratification and it's very, very earthy. It's very like... it's crazy how much it's everything you're talking about. It's feeding all of that to the extreme. And you know, then they come to our treatment centers and they get they get strong and healthy and connected, and they develop relationships with other people, and they establish bonds. And then they sort of wake up. And "wake up" meaning they just, you see it in their eyes. They kind of come to life. It's extraordinary. Like, I am so blessed to see, everybody that I work with, to see that. It's like I literally get to watch miracles on a regular basis. I see people go from near dead to coming to life. And it never gets old. We have treated thousands of people now and it never, ever gets old. But also with treating thousands of people, you start to develop this sense of, like, when people have peace, you can feel it coming off. And that's part of why I was like... because really, like, interviewing an artist, like, you're an incredible artist, and making money, all this stuff. But then running into you and saying, I want to have you on the show was like, you carry something. I didn't know any of... I mean, I knew that you have belief in God, but I didn't understand to this depth that it all makes sense. I think, long story short, I think people can feel that in you. And it's incredibly compelling. And I think a lot of people walk around with a lot of torment and tension. And I wonder why they don't find some way, like, what is it? What do you think the resistance is to believing in God for an atheist? Why would an atheist choose to say there's nothing, as opposed to having what you have?

(33:53) Ethan Espinoza: I mean, there's a Bible verse that says, the fool says in his heart there is no God. Yeah. And so I think part of it is like foolishness. But people's circumstances are different. There could be right? I have a hard time believing that they really don't believe in God, because they're often, like, they hate God the most. I like the concept of God. And so it's like, how do you have hate towards something that you don't believe exists? That's why I feel like they're kind of lying to themselves. I... I think some of it could be pride. Some of it could be just coming to really a piece of the puzzle that God's left a mystery, which is like, well, if there is a good God, then he must just be made up. Because a good God wouldn't allow... and it's often times a personal experience that they've had, of like some tragedy. And they can't reconcile that with saying, like, God, if he is good or whatever, they think, would not have let this happen. And so therefore there can't be a God. But I mean, that's just one. Another one is, it's almost like, I hope there isn't a God, because if there is, like, then I have it coming to me, you know? And so part of it is kind of like that. I mean, there is an aspect of it that's faith though. That's a... Like you can't see God. God's invisible. But like Jesus said, the spirit of God is like the wind where you see the trees move and things get pushed around wherever the wind is. But it's invisible. You can't see it. And you don't know how it works, necessarily. So you'd be a fool saying there's no wind. I don't see it. Yeah. It's kind of how it is.

(36:31) Justin McMillen: See that? Yeah. Yeah. What about you? Why do you think people... I think what you said come to that conclusion. I think what you said earlier about people with pain, personal pain, and they feel that injustice that you felt. I think a lot of people stop at your ten. You know, your ten-year-old way of seeing it. I think not everyone is raised in a family where you could just go to your dad and say that. And I think if you're left with being ten and nihilistic and thinking that the world is a terrible place without an opportunity to be guided, I think that's probably part of it. I don't know. I think about this all the time, though. I think the easiest thing is... it's. No, it's not the easiest thing. I think, what's crazy is that if you... if a person just acknowledges that there's some sort of... and this is a very, like, a kind of very simple, like, the starting point. Just acknowledging that there's greater forces at work. What happens all the time that I see with people is they begin to notice it everywhere. They start seeing the effects of the wind, like you just said. And once they start noticing that, they double down on it and then the belief grows. And something seems to emerge within them. But it... to me, it seems like when we're on Earth, we're here in these bodies, there's like this organic system of everything. All of it's connected, like the plants and the... I'm talking about purely biologically. All the chemistry and reproduction and all of these things. And there's this system. And then locked in that system is like all the souls. We're here doing something for a reason. And I think maybe it's hard to... It's hard to not be within this system and just experience what the system is doing. Like, the system wants me to have sex so I can have babies, right? So more of the system can exist. And pain, to avoid things I shouldn't do, all again so the system can exist. But what I think happens for a lot of people, and definitely people in the recovery space, is that you get to the point where you realize that you're so locked in it, that the chemistry, you know, chasing pleasure, avoiding pain, is so strong, that the only way to counteract that, especially because there are genetic factors at play too. If we go down the science road, like, people who are predisposed to addiction are built differently. Well, the spiritual part of that person has to be very strong to counterbalance or overshadow that organic system. And so I think different people have different degrees of that. I don't think about the devil a lot. Like I don't like to. But maybe that's part of it too. I don't know. I just know that if you've felt... it's so hard. If you feel the feelings that you can have when you've accepted God, when you understand that all of these things are at play, it's really hard not to want other people to experience that too. As far as I can tell, in most of my life, it's just been trying to live a certain way to where that's attractive, rather than, like, tell people this is what you should do. So I don't know, but it's challenging. We're all so damn smart, or maybe not at all. You know, we can intellectualize anything.

(40:34) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah, I think that's part of it too. There's kind of a humbling of oneself that it requires. So I think the... we like... I mean it's scary. But to totally answer to yourself is.

(41:12) Justin McMillen: It's tough to give up.

(41:12) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. I agree. I think that's a trap too. I think that the... you can have such great expression of life here on earth if you just allow something bigger than you. In my mind, God, to be where all the credit is given. Like, then life suddenly opens up and it becomes like, wow, I have a responsibility now. I have to do all of these things. Like, doors are opening everywhere. I don't know. I, yeah. But if you only serve yourself, I see this, it causes people to fail all the time. Especially, like, just think of it like the simple dynamic of being successful, whatever that means. Being good at whatever you do or making money. When people make it all about themselves, it gets gross really quick. That's where the ego things happen. People act weird. Relationships get torn apart. It's where people destroy themselves with bad behaviors. It seems like really the only way to flourish as things unfold, in terms of success, like truly flourish, is to not make it about yourself.

(42:43) Justin McMillen: I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I love coming out... is it... don't you. Actually, it's better than I thought it was going to be. I feel like I'm looking at... so people can't see it. I'm looking at this picture, this... it's, it's a reflection now, off of all the glass block. And it's kind of starting to make me feel like cuckoo. Not in a bad way. And you can keep... I'm not saying this that, but I've never stared at something this long in the same way for so long. It's kind of cool that it's making this conversation different, which may or may not be interesting to listen to, but I don't care. Oh, I've had a great time. Yeah. Listening to everything you've had to share. And then just questions I've asked.

(43:45) Ethan Espinoza: No, I'm just about done, actually. Okay. With it.

(43:45) Justin McMillen: No, there was a... your last thought that you were explaining, I think, was the... it's liberating to no longer, like, just be living to serve yourself. And there's a Bible verse, but I haven't memorized it, but that, like, speaks to that. It basically says I want to... I want to read it. Okay. Should memorize it. Obviously.

(44:24) Ethan Espinoza: Okay.

(44:29) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's 2 Corinthians 5:15. It says, and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised. So he kind of... now it's like what we're talking about.

(44:29) Ethan Espinoza: No, that fits. I'll tell you a story that... so in the last several years, my life is just like... and since my children were born, really. But it just keeps growing into, like, more opportunities, more things. It's almost magical.

(45:05) Justin McMillen: And that makes me so nervous. And I'm like, oh, I mean, Heather, my wife, will sometimes cry and she's like, I don't understand how this is all happening. And it's not without struggle. Yes. And I mean, we've had plenty of struggle. There's been lots of things. Running a business is incredibly difficult and so a lot of pain around that. But health and the children and them growing, that's been a huge piece. And then having faith and doing the right thing and trusting over time, if we do the right thing within work, that the right things will happen, has caused so many good things to happen that it's unnerving. It scares me. And the other day, I had... there's a recent opportunity that I've been really excited about and nervous about. And I really started to think about overanalyzing it and thinking about myself within it. And everything was about me. Like I was thinking about myself. It was really weird. And I didn't catch it. Like it was just me, me, me. Like, how's this going to be for me? How am I going to feel? How am I going to look? Is it going to be bad for me? Me, me, me. And I was walking through a neighborhood and I just like it... it was nuts. I just, out of nowhere, I was like, what are you doing? Like, this is not none of this is about you. It's never been about you. You've been serving something for a very long time. Like, this is a... just acknowledge. Just be grateful and just pray for guidance and just do everything you can to continue to serve. And the moment that I said this, I went... first of all, I, like, I got emotional. I was like walking down a cliff, driving the gun... I'm like stopping. And the reason was because I felt so good. I was like, I can't screw up. I mean, I was like, I was like, all this fear around screwing up. I was like, I'm totally fine. Like, I felt so powerful. Like no matter what happens, I'm going to be fine. And I felt incredibly... it was just like a weight was lifted, but also like, just like felt like there was nothing that couldn't be accomplished. I'm like, I'm ready for all of this. Like it's fine. And then I went back to my house and I went upstairs. My wife was upstairs in her bedroom and I'm like trying to explain it to her, and it's coming out of my mouth like I'm fumbling. And she knows, like she knows what I mean, because she seems to be able to understand me outside of what I say. And then I couldn't stop thinking about it. So I called a mentor friend of mine, and I was trying to tell him, and he didn't get it. And I was like, no, look. Like, no matter what happens, everything's fine. And it was literally because I just let go of the idea that I have to be in control of it. Like, I need to serve and be grateful. You know? And I keep having these moments that are like that, that are just unreal.

(48:32) Ethan Espinoza: That's so cool.

(48:32) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So what's amazing is, like, the more that I feel grateful, it's like, you know, that feeling when you just want to say thank you so badly, and then you look around and there's nobody to thank, really. I mean, there is, there's always something to thank. But it's like, if you can thank God, then you can say... that feeling is, like, you know, other. So that's, you know, some people think of, like, having faith or being a Christian or whatever it is, like this submission thing. It's like, maybe it is. But man, I tell you, like, it just feels awesome.

(48:54) Ethan Espinoza: It feels so good to do those things. I'm definitely not perfect. I think you probably are far more perfect than I am. I've led a pretty crazy life and, certainly just, so, I mean, I certainly am not at 11 thinking of these things. And I never... this is the most I've talked about my faith probably outside of my immediate family in a long time.

(49:16) Justin McMillen: So this is strange and this is going to be on the show, but.

(49:16) Ethan Espinoza: Oh, wow. Yeah. You're bringing that out of me. But it's beautiful. I mean, literally feel like... I mean, how could I not? I look at my children and I think... yesterday I was in my... we have this, like, apartment on our property where people can come stay. And my parents.

(49:42) Justin McMillen: And I was working out there and my daughter, she goes out there, she wants to play. And she's nine. And she's over in the corner. And for an hour I was working and she was talking to herself and she was playing. And it's just crazy that I even... I don't know that I deserve any of these things, like, this kind of these feelings.

(50:09) Ethan Espinoza: So. And it... yeah, I don't know that any of us deserve anything.

(50:09) Justin McMillen: No, it's all... you just earn it every day.

(50:09) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. You know.

(50:36) Justin McMillen: So cool. Yeah. How many kids do you have? Four. You have four. That's great. Yeah. Oldest is a boy. And then three daughters. 14, 12, nine and six. And you'll probably meet them at some point. 14-year-old. Another... since we're talking about God, like, my son. So we didn't bring the kids to church when they're young. Very different from your family. We pray and stuff, but there's not... we don't have a connection to one specific church. And when Finn was about 11, maybe, every Sunday he would get dressed up and he would be like, I'm going to take off. And he would leave. And so obviously, after the first Sunday, I was like, what is he doing, to my wife? So he's going to church. Okay. I said, son, where are you going? So I can go to church. What church? Lots of churches, like... okay. So he's, like, walking to different churches in Laguna, like checking out the Catholic. And then he goes to the neighbor who's Catholic. He's like, hey, will you take me to church at the Catholic Church? So he goes to Catholic Church, and then he goes to the Protestant church, and he goes to the Christian Science Church. And I've gone to some strange churches and all this stuff. But yeah, he on his own just dove into it so hard.

(51:39) Ethan Espinoza: Interesting.

(51:39) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Around the same age.

(51:39) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. As you. And that's pretty cool. It is really cool.

(51:39) Justin McMillen: It was so cool to see. It was amazing to see that. Because then my daughter Hazel started doing it on her own. And then my wife started reading the Bible out of nowhere. And she went to a school that had, like, a religious base to it. And, I mean, was raised in a Christian family. I was baptized, raised in a Lutheran family. And not... we weren't, like, regular churchgoers. But God's always been part of things. And then my wife started reading the Bible, and she's like, I don't know what's happening to me. And then. Yeah, a lot of it is like, I think in general there's this feeling of, we're so blessed, things have gone so good. We really need to, like, to find out how to just say thank you, which is a big part of it. The other part too, I think most of my praying in the last 15 years has been when I'm scared to death. So. So it's a good time to pray.

(52:46) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. Like, God, please help me get through this. Like I'm about to have this conversation. I need so much help. I'm really terrified. I'm scared. Or, you know, please don't let this happen this way. Yeah. It's literally a command in Scripture. He says, to not be anxious and to cast all your anxieties upon him. And then he says, so the verse is, do not be anxious for anything, but in everything with prayer and supplication make your requests known to God. And the peace of God which surpasses understanding will rule your heart and mind in Christ Jesus. So there's this exchange that happens with the creator of the universe. When you communicate to God, like, your anxieties, he in return, like, receives them and then gives you peace. But he allows us to get into a situation and feel anxiety to have that, like, exchange. Because he actually loves us and gives us, I don't know, opportunity for, like, that relational experience with him, you know.

(54:09) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Well, you just described that night I was just telling you about, which is exactly what happened.

(54:09) Ethan Espinoza: Oh yeah. That verse. But that's like, yeah, I mean it was like the level and again, it was the anxiousness was coming from making it about me. And so the motivation was suddenly I had a realization not to make it about me. But the moment that I gave it over, I was like, I felt so much better. Because I was in a state of fear and stress.

(54:31) Justin McMillen: What made me acknowledge it was that I was like, yeah, it's because you're making this about you. It's so crazy, man. There's been so many things. There's this amazing woman in Hawaii. Her name is Tammy. And I've grown connected to her family for different reasons. And she's friends, she's also close with another guy that works here, and he and I are, like, connected at the heart. Like, when we're going through stuff, it's always, he's going through similar stuff. And it's a lot of it's work related. And what's so crazy? So she's super religious. She's like, deep, deep relationship with God. She just, like, sends me prayers all the time. And, oh, but she somehow always knows when things are difficult, because she always sends. And she'll send something to me. And since I've met him, it's... it's almost eerie. Like, it's almost like. Yeah, it's almost like she's listening. Like, if someone said, oh, she's got your phone miked up, that's how she knows that this is going on, I'd be like, that seems more probable, then somehow. But her son just stays with me. She prays a lot, though.

(55:44) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah, but she does it. It happens when you're spending a lot of time in prayer. All of a sudden you'll get this, like, you'll see Luke or something in your head. Maybe not see him, but just, you'll think... and I got a text, like, Luke, like, I just appreciate you or something like that. And then he'll be like, man, that was right at the right time.

(56:08) Justin McMillen: Yeah, or something like that. Like, it's real for sure. I've experienced it so many times. It's not once or twice, like ten times. So many times with her where... wow. In some of the worst situations, we had this one woman who was really crazy, like, very sick person, attacking us. She didn't want her husband to go to treatment. And so she was doing terrible things. She was calling and tearing apart the admissions staff and writing horrible things. And at some point, she started to attack me and my family, and it was just super taxing. It was an incredibly difficult time. And Viji and I were going back and forth about it, like, what do we do here? And you know, and one of the hardest periods, like when she really started attacking my family, which was just crazy. No one's ever done that before. I get a message from her, and it was like, I know things can be hard, and you just have to remember why you do what you do. Weird. Wow. So weird. And she also texted him. And I don't think you feel, when you read that, like at that time one, like it... Honestly, it's so overwhelming that she seems to do that, like that. That's always the first thing, which is, how in the heck does this person know? I guess I never thought of it like there's something watching out for me, other than her, you know? But there's a deeper piece of it for sure. Yeah. And she always writes... she'll say stuff, and then she, she'll say, like, it'll move into what's obviously a prayer where she's praying for, you know, like, lightheartedness or strength or. It's so strange. I love her so much. I can't... I was telling her son, I'm like. And he's like. He's like, yeah, my mom is kind of magical. She's always been that way. He's like, he said he's never heard her speak negatively or poorly about anyone, ever. And he's 30. Yeah. What a great... yeah, yeah. Not reputation, but like, I don't know. That's a real, I think, litmus test for somebody's character. Part of their character is how they speak about others. Yeah. Whether they have the self-control to not... say what you say matters a lot. We have a guy that works here, an older gentleman, and he's really into The Four Agreements.

(58:46) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. That book. You ever read it? I just ran into somebody reading that and they gave me a quick, like, synopsis of the book, but I haven't read it myself now. What does it teach?

(58:46) Justin McMillen: It talks about the power of the word. And it explains how the mind is like a fertile garden and the words that we say to each other plant seeds. And they can plant the seeds of fear and doubt, or they can plant seeds of, like, the greatest dream. And so just the... and so the first of the Four Agreements is "be impeccable with your word." And it isn't what you were saying, be impeccable with your word. You think it means, keep your word and don't, you know, do what you say. It's not. It's like how you use your words. And so being impeccable with your word. You won't speak poorly of others, and you won't put anything out there that doesn't plant a good seed. You know, yeah. It's a really neat book. It comes from, depending on how you feel about reading different philosophies, because it comes from Toltec wisdom, which is like ancient Mexican, Latin American. I think it descends probably from like the Aztecs and the Mayans.

(1:00:03) Ethan Espinoza: So it might be something you're not into. But there's some seriously beautiful stuff in there. There's, like, some powerful truths.

(1:00:33) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's great. I mean, having discernment is something necessary for just navigating through the world. And being able to, as I've heard it, chew the meat, spit out the bones. You can get wisdom from all sorts of things.

(1:00:33) Ethan Espinoza: Like, even if there's somebody who says something who is wrong, there are lessons that can be learned from what they're saying. Yeah. For sure, for sure. So I think you can find lessons everywhere.

(1:01:02) Justin McMillen: Yeah. I've heard some of the most important life lessons standing in a line at a Circle K from a homeless person standing in front of me, kind of thing. So if you're listening, you know, you'll hear what you need to hear. And then, yeah, there's a lot to that. But that's really cool.

(1:01:17) Ethan Espinoza: Well, there comes a point with drawings that they kind of, like, can get worse and worse at a certain point. Doesn't mean our conversation is done, but I can show you what it looks like. Should we have the big reveal here? Okay. I usually... look, can you see it from the cameras? Yeah. Like.

(1:01:42) Justin McMillen: Okay, so I'm pointing at that one over there.

(1:01:47) Ethan Espinoza: It's... man, I wanted the lighting and everything, and your face is so interesting. I wish I could draw you right now with you being, like, really still. But I think you did a great job, considering the circumstances.

(1:02:15) Justin McMillen: Okay. You go. Holy crap. Dude, it's not... that's amazing. Thank you. Whoa. Is this a good place to hold it, or should I hold it?

(1:02:15) Ethan Espinoza: Like, can you see it? Well, now put it back where it... where? Oh, do you want me to put it? Wherever you want. Is it... it looks good right there. Yeah. Really? Okay. Wow. So it's on fabric that you did that? Yeah. This is on canvas. Okay. On unprimed canvas. So it's cotton. That's crazy, man. That's so weird.

(1:02:37) Justin McMillen: And in a good way. I just want to see... see your own face in something like that. You're more handsome in real life, for sure. Yeah. I look like an old man with my white beard. Are you? But that's how I look.

(1:03:01) Ethan Espinoza: It's called a wolf. There you go.

(1:03:01) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So this is, you do this during the day, and you would... this was something you would do at a coffee shop or something and sell it to people? Or people commission you. How would people get a hold of you to have you do a drawing? I know this is like a quick drawing. Like you can do paintings and all kinds of stuff.

(1:03:16) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. Can I put this down now?

(1:03:16) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.

(1:03:16) Ethan Espinoza: Sorry. Yeah, I know, it's all good. I was just like, did you get the shot?

(1:03:47) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. All of it. Yeah.

(1:03:47) Ethan Espinoza: All right. I'm happy to dive into kind of how art translates into... yeah. Providing for me.

(1:03:47) Justin McMillen: So cool. This thing that's amazing. Thank you. It blows my mind that people can do that. You were literally, we were just talking, and then, yeah, and then boom. Yeah, yeah. It's incredible. Thanks. Yeah. So what was your question? So if so I know you do commissioned work for people, and how would someone go about getting a hold of you to do something like this?

(1:04:18) Ethan Espinoza: So I have a website, but I haven't introduced it to the public yet because I'm still making some edits to it. Right now the best way is through Instagram. Okay. Yeah. What's your Instagram handle?

(1:04:44) Justin McMillen: I'll put it in the show notes.

(1:04:44) Ethan Espinoza: It's EthanSB. So "SB" is short for my last name, which is Espinoza. Okay. Yeah. People often reach me through there. Is it always from life, or do people send you photos to work from? It can be a concept that somebody relates to me. Like, I would like an abstract piece in this room of my house, or I would like a family portrait. And so either they'll have a good photo that I can work from already. Or we'll do a photo shoot together and get it where I'm kind of controlling the setting and telling people where to look so that it's something I could work with. Okay. Yeah. But I do a mix of drawing from life and then working from, working on things in my home studio. So when I'm drawing from life, I will either do it through appointments that people will make with me, to have, like, their kids drawn, or just themselves, or, like, maybe a couple. Or I will go out in public and ask people if I can draw them for, like, a certain amount of money.

(1:05:47) Justin McMillen: Did you just walk up to people and, like, like full street artist?

(1:05:47) Ethan Espinoza: That's how I've made most of my money in the beginning. Yeah.

(1:06:15) Justin McMillen: And that's incredible. So.

(1:06:15) Ethan Espinoza: But I would do that at the beach, because people are already, like, just laying down or, like, being still. So I'll just walk up to people and say, excuse me, I'm an artist and I'm doing realistic charcoal drawings of people. Would any of you like a drawing of yourself, or of your kids, or of you and your friends? And often time... and then I share with them, like, how much. And they'll either say no thank you, or, actually, like, it's her birthday, can you draw her? Yeah. And it creates lots of unexpected but, like, special experiences. Do you always talk about God and faith and everything like that?

(1:07:15) Justin McMillen: It depends on what headspace I'm in or, like, feeling the audience.

(1:07:15) Ethan Espinoza: I usually write scripture on the back that I think would be relevant to their lives or where it seems like they're at. And that's pointing to Jesus. And so it could be like, often times John 3:16, which is just probably the clearest explanation of the gospel. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life. But then I'll write... more meaningful, sorry God, that's very meaningful. Thank you for your... no. But other verses that are more relevant to that specific person's circumstance or.

(1:07:54) Justin McMillen: Right.

(1:07:54) Ethan Espinoza: Like, I might have just drawn a husband and wife and I could write on there, like, there's a verse that says, a man who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the Lord. So I could, like, write that on it. Or say I'd just drawn kids, and there's a verse that says, like, arrows in the hands of a warrior. So are the children of one's youth. How blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them. So it's poetic, yeah. And it's like, hey, your kids are a blessing. But there's a... there's sometimes...

(1:08:36) Justin McMillen: Sorry.

(1:08:36) Ethan Espinoza: Oh, you just... what you just said reminded me of, there's Khalil Gibran. I don't know if I said his name right. He wrote a book called The Prophet. And someone... it's like this guy's leaving this town, and all these people say to him, you know, tell us of this and tell us of that. And he says this, it tells of children. And he says something to the effect of what you said, which he must have pulled from Scripture.

(1:08:36) Justin McMillen: You know, it sounds like, yeah, it's about children being arrows in the quiver. I mean, it's very well. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah. The reason I know that verse is because my mom made us sing it to my dad every Father's Day, and she made, like, hand motions for everything.

(1:09:02) Ethan Espinoza: Nice.

(1:09:02) Justin McMillen: Yeah. But what was I starting to say? Oh, in terms of talking about my faith with those people.

(1:09:32) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. Often times I'll open it by saying, hey, would you mind if we pray together before I get started? And often times it'll be something simple like, thank you for this beautiful day, thank you for this person, and please... like, I'm just asking you, God, for your help that I do a good job on this drawing and that it would be a blessing to them. And that they would be reminded that they've been fearfully and wonderfully made. So... and then that might bring tears from their eyes, like, getting started, you know. Hopefully I do a good job after that.

(1:10:04) Justin McMillen: And do you get nervous when you do this?

(1:10:04) Ethan Espinoza: Now, I don't get... it's nervous. I get excited, like, for it sometimes. I do get on edge, though, depending on the circumstances. Like, I could be drawing somebody and their friends are talking, or there's people next to us that are being really rowdy, or there's just, like, distractions, or there's lots of clouds in the sky but breaks in them. So the lighting's dramatically changing. And I'm like, man, there's a lot of adversity right now between me and a good drawing.

(1:10:30) Justin McMillen: And so yeah, that that'll happen. But I mean, I've drawn thousands of people within the last five years. So it's gotten pretty... I don't know, confident. Yeah. It's incredible. I can't believe you can just sit there and do that from life. Do you have teachers? Do you take classes? Like, how do you improve?

(1:11:04) Ethan Espinoza: I seek out constructive criticism when I'm working on a piece that I feel like could be better. I mean, not just when I think it can be better, but where it feels like I could really learn something if I had somebody look at this and tell me what they see can improve. Typically that's with a painting. So there's an artist who I love. His name is Mark Whitney, and he has a gallery in Laguna Beach. And I noticed his artwork because it looked like one of my favorite artists' work. His name is Henry Ossawa Tanner. I believe he... his father was a Black preacher, but a former slave. So he was born, I think, during the Civil War and then experienced freedom. And his dad, like, encouraged him to paint because he was just natural at art. But because his dad was a preacher, not just because of that, I'm sure. It's like, also just... well, like, I don't believe that people who really have a relationship with Jesus, just because of how they were raised... I believe that, like, God chose them and stuff. So that's why I like to preface it. Anyways, he makes beautiful art. And I was exposed to it at... [???] but he died, like, a few hundred years ago. Anyways, I walked into this gallery in Laguna and the artist there had a very similar style to Henry Ossawa Tanner. And then I looked at where he went to school, because I was reading about this artist in Laguna. And they went to the same school as Henry Ossawa Tanner.

(1:12:46) Justin McMillen: Sick.

(1:12:46) Ethan Espinoza: Yes. But anyways, so I asked his wife to ask him if we could meet together, and he said yes. And then since then, that was like three years ago, I'll bring my paintings, I'll call them up and be like, hey, is Mark in the studio today? And she's like, yeah, like, come through. Then I'll bring my artwork and he has usually a handful of things to tell me that could improve it. And so that's been great. I also, for another one of those like meetings with people where it helps to direct your life, was with Morgan Westly and Joanna Peralta. They're husband and wife. But because they're painters, it's kind of like they're... I don't know, they're... and it helps them to have their own brand as a pair. So that's why it's Joanna Peralta and Morgan Westly. Basically, I was a server during college and I served her table. And she said, hey, I'm a professional artist. My husband and I try to paint from life, like one person a week for a portrait. Is that something you'd be open to? And in my heart, I'm, like, bursting. Like, I want to be an artist, you know? And I want to learn how to paint. And that would be an amazing opportunity. So she was like, okay, bring, like, some of your art. So I did. And she ended up not only painting my portrait, but her and her husband gave me, like, a one-on-one art lesson. And Morgan Westly is, like, world famous and sells his paintings for, like, hundreds of thousands of dollars. He's just top in his field for fine art. So it was amazing to just get, like, connected with them and invited into their home without me having to, like, seek that out. Yeah. Turns out they're, like, strong believers. I think he used to be an atheist or something like that. His dad served in World War Two. Just like a really interesting and brilliant man. Well, they both have, like, nurtured my, like, growth as an artist. And that was when I was in college. So I wasn't like, doing art other than, like, drawing my hands or drawing my professors during class. Forget why I brought that up, but...

(1:15:10) Justin McMillen: It doesn't matter why you brought it up, man. It's because you were asking about teachers.

(1:15:10) Ethan Espinoza: So I also ask Morgan to look at my work from time to time, or, like, for advice when I'm tackling something. For instance, I was hired by this family to do, like, 30 portraits on one canvas. It was just under 30. And they were all from different photos for the most part. Some of them you could only see their faces. Others, like, you could see, you know, what shoes they're wearing and stuff. So it was very intimidating. And I called Morgan and I was like, what do I do? You know, what do you say? And I think I don't remember what he told me. He told me that when he's working on something that feels maybe overwhelming in the moment, he tells himself like, just draw. And even though he's painting and so he's like, just, like, remember that as you're doing this, like, you're just drawing. Stay in them. Yeah. Right there. But I ended up shipping it to England for this man's, like, 90th birthday or something.

(1:16:24) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(1:16:24) Ethan Espinoza: And I got that job from going up to people at the beach, like asking if I could draw their portraits. And I think I drew, like, their grandkids or something like that. And so they thought of me when they were thinking about, what can we give grandpa that's unique? And then even the shirt that I'm wearing... what does it say? Sloth? It's an artist who made this shirt. But he does, like, paintings and murals and stuff. He's based in Arizona. He's got a following of, like, 260,000 on Instagram. So he's more like influential. He has a deal with, like, the basketball team, the Suns. What is it, the Arizona... Phoenix Suns. Phoenix Suns. He's worked with Nike and all these big brands. Anyways, I walk up to this family at the beach and I was just feeling bold. I was like, can I draw you? You know? And he, like, laughed. And then he said, you can draw my wife and her sister, it's their birthday. So I draw them. He, like, films it. I didn't know who he was. But come to find out, he's a professional artist. Really kind and just generous man and hardworking. He's like a hybrid, like, artist-athlete. So he'll do like... he did Lifetime's first, like, huge competition and stuff like that. He's a former collegiate athlete, football player. Anyways, I've been... I've stayed at his house multiple times out in Arizona because of, like, jobs that I've had. Like a wedding that I just went to through a connection that I had with him. And he, like, hooked me up with shirts and all this stuff. But anyways, all that to say is it's been so cool. By just, like, running with that kind of message, I felt like God was giving me like, just draw people's faces and then I'll take care of the rest. By going up to people on the beach and asking if I could draw them. And a lot of people say no. Most people say no. But so many doors have been opened. That's how I got the job with [???] -- a husband and wife -- if I could draw one of them. And I ended up drawing the husband, who's kind of like a... he's maybe 60, had a mustache. It was really... he was interesting to draw and really fun. And then the daughter saw the drawing, hired me to do the wedding for her friend that she was, like, the maid of honor at. At the wedding, I got exhausted after drawing. I drew, like, 15 people or something. And the last person that came up, it was like at 11. So I'd been drawing for like six hours.

(1:19:06) Justin McMillen: Oh my gosh.

(1:19:43) Ethan Espinoza: And he asked me to draw him and his wife. And I remember... oh, and when he leaned back with his wife for me to draw them, he, like, had a double chin kind of away. I shouldn't say all this because I'm about to tell this whole story. But he was very challenging to draw. And I just thought... I stopped and I was this close to saying like, I'm sorry, I'm too tired, you know. Like, no. But instead I, like, pushed through it. And it ended up, like, looking decent. And he, he gave me, like... I was hired to be at the wedding, so nobody needed to give me anything. But he gave me a handful of cash. And then he said, hey, this is my business card. I'd love to hire you to do artwork for my company. So I ended up driving out to Compton. And he gives me a tour of his facilities. And then as I was there, he hired me to do an art piece of his whole, like, company's property. So I hired a drone photographer, who's a friend of mine, and he had a bunch of shots of it. And then I worked from one of the photos that he took for, like, two months or something. Just poured myself into this drawing. And I was working at [LR Bakery???] on the drawing. And [???] saw it. And then shortly after, he, like, hired me to do artwork, to make some of the shirts for [Peyton ???] on, like, one of their fight weeks.

(1:20:58) Justin McMillen: Nice.

(1:20:58) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. And then that's what, through all of those relationships, is a big reason why I decided to move out to Costa Mesa.

(1:20:58) Justin McMillen: Where were you living before that?

(1:20:58) Ethan Espinoza: San Clemente.

(1:21:25) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah. That's incredible to see how you can, like, draw these dots. Yeah, right. You can connect all these pieces. And what I love about it is you're putting yourself out there, and you're having these encounters that are flourishing, you're evolving into these opportunities, and then you just keep going. And you've only been doing this for five years. So I'm lucky because I get to sit down with you before you're too busy to have a conversation. So. Thanks.

(1:21:51) Ethan Espinoza: Yeah. Yeah. Ethan, it's been awesome to have you on here. This is really cool. I'm, like, totally blown away by this.

(1:21:51) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And this has been a really cool conversation.

(1:21:51) Ethan Espinoza: Oh, it's totally mutual. I feel so energized by the time together. And I wish I was interviewing you because I want to learn about Birdhouse.

(1:22:11) Justin McMillen: Treehouse.

(1:22:11) Ethan Espinoza: Treehouse. Yeah. That's okay. See, like, I need to learn the name. It's okay. Well, we'll have more chance to talk, for sure. I think I could learn a lot of stuff from you as well.

(1:22:11) Justin McMillen: So we'll get together. And I'd love to show you what we do at some point too.