Transcript

(0:00) [Intro]

(0:29) Justin McMillen: You have so much knowledge around veterans, you have so much lived experience. And there's a lot that we can unpack here. So why don't we start with just giving, like, a bio? Let's talk about how you grew up, and then we'll, we'll go from there. And then as we, we carry on, we'll, we'll get into the weeds on a whole bunch of things. So. Good. Yeah. Okay. So where are you from?

(0:55) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Was born here in California. We moved when I was one. So, went to...

(0:59) Justin McMillen: Where?

(1:00) Chad Wooten: Here in California. [...] San Luis Obispo.

(1:04) Justin McMillen: Okay. So near, near this area.

(1:05) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, then, grew up mostly in Texas. So that was, San Antonio, Dallas, Houston. My dad was in air conditioning, so it's pretty lucrative down in Texas.

(1:21) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(1:22) Chad Wooten: So, San Antonio until sixth grade. And then we moved to Dallas. I kind of claim Dallas because I was there until my senior year. Played football, ran track, grew up on a lake, wakeboard, and, had a lot of friends, good family, parents still together. Very fortunate for that. You know, brothers, sisters, younger sister. She's three years younger.

(1:41) Justin McMillen: All right.

(1:42) Chad Wooten: Yeah. So I was the wild child. I had a lot of concussions early, so, you know, that didn't help as I went into the Marines, but, you know, football, hockey, rugby.

(1:50) Justin McMillen: They'll do it.

(1:51) Chad Wooten: Yeah, a few fistfights and stuff like that. So, but, yeah. No, I grew up, great family, loving, supportive. You know, growing up in Texas was wild. That was before there was cameras on front doors. So we were pretty mischievous. Got into a lot of trouble.

(2:11) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(2:12) Chad Wooten: And, had some legal issues. Hated school. Felt like prison. Was ADHD and could not sit still. Gave what I needed to so that I could make sure that I was on the football field, but otherwise I was not invested in school. It felt, felt like I was trapped. But, yeah, had a pretty cool core group of friends that we were able to, learn a lot of lessons that ended up paying off in the Marine Corps. And the places that I went running from cops on the weekend. You know, hiding, ducking, diving, long runs to get back to the house that, you know, our parents had let us have a sleepover at, you know, all the way across the neighborhood. You know, just silly stuff. But, then we got a little bit older and, you know, started drinking, smoking weed. Nothing really crazy. But, it was one of those things that... definitely was a pothead growing up. And, then one day I was like, I don't really want to go to college. Like, I, I, school, school is a prison. Like, I just want to spread my wings and fly, you know? And I was like, well, there's a war going on. I mean, I was in eighth grade when 9/11 happened, and, I remember that very specifically because the neighborhood that we lived in was real close to Dallas Fort Worth Airport, and there was a lot of American Airlines pilots, that their kids I was in school with. So when 9/11 happened, and my mom was working at the World Trade Center in Dallas. So a lot of people don't know that there were World Trade Centers around the nation, New York and Dallas. I think there might be one in LA or Miami and stuff like that. And, so my mom had just dropped me off, and we're in the cafeteria waiting for school to go and, you know, buddy on like a Walkman listening to the radio. And he's like, hey, doesn't your mom work at the World Trade Center? I was like, yeah. "So it just got hit by a plane." No shit. Right? Yeah. Like, well, she just dropped me off and it's like 30, 45 minutes away. I think she's okay, but that's crazy. And then, like, on his headphones, he started hearing, and it's like, oh, it was in New York. And it started getting amplifying information. And as he did, we were like, oh, this is getting pretty serious. So we went up to, like, our history teacher's classroom before school started. We asked them to turn on the TVs, when they had, like, the rolling cart of the TV. You know, that was always good news, right?

(4:47) Justin McMillen: So I come in, you're like, oh, we're watching movie night, you know, Schoolhouse Rock. Let's go.

(4:54) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Distract me a little bit. And, so now we turn it on and, you know, obviously you see the tower and... but yeah, I don't... I can remember watching the second plane hit, then, we knew it was serious because we were in eighth grade, and, you know, we had a football game that day, and all of us, all the classes had kind of been canceled. All the classes were, you know, sequestered to their classrooms and, sitting there and everybody had the TVs on and, you know, so we watched the towers fall, but we knew it was serious when football got canceled and kids started getting pulled out, the American Airlines pilots' kids were getting pulled out and, you know, so that was... Eighth grade. You don't really know. You don't really know a lot. I remember, I mean, Texas is a pretty patriotic place, but I remember watching the nation come together afterwards. Even at that age, people in Texas waved to each other and say hi and, you know, look each other in the eye, walking down the grocery aisle and stuff like that. But, I just remember a lot more flags. And it was, it was definitely impactful. And then, you know, getting into, get into high school, it was like we had friends whose older brothers were leaving because the war started. I was in, we were in Breckenridge, Colorado, on a ski trip. And, I remember coming down the mountain and, you know, parents had had the news on at night. And I remember George Bush giving Saddam the ultimatum and then, you know, come down the next night. And I think he gave him like 72 hours or something like that. But I remember the ultimatum. And then I remember coming down one night and it was just watching the war. I mean, the, the initial invasion, all the, all the warheads and, you know, the palaces and stuff in Baghdad and all the initial bombardment, I remember watching that, and, you know, my dad didn't serve, but we had, we have a good military history in our family. So, his side of the family, a lot of service members. And my, my grandfather, he was, he was in the Air Force, and, he ended up working for NASA. He worked for Martin Marietta, became merged with Lockheed Martin. They worked on every rocket from Atlas through space shuttle.

(7:21) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(7:22) Chad Wooten: So, yeah, that was...

(7:25) Justin McMillen: You got a big brain.

(7:27) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Right. Yeah, absolutely. And so it was, it was one of those things that, when it came time to towards the end of high school, you know, my dad was like... You know, I'll pay for you to go to college here in Texas, but, like, you gotta, you gotta show me, like, go to community college for a year and prove to me you want to school. And I was like, I don't want to school. But I didn't really, and really verbalize it, cause I didn't really know. I didn't really know I wanted to join the military yet. And then, you know, I can remember some recruiters coming to the high school and... yeah. So I was, I went down to the Marine recruiter's office. I had, I had hair, you know, like longer hair and, you know, a little pothead and... yeah, but I was, I was fit, you know, I was always... I was pretty athletic. And, so I can remember, you know, going down and talking to the recruiters and being like, oh, I think I want to do this, you know, and they're like, well, you know, we'll get to do this and here's this, here's that, you know, before we know that you're even eligible. And I was like, okay. I went home and shaved my head, came downstairs. My mom was like, what are you doing? I was like, I'm joining the Marines. She's like, what?

(8:49) Justin McMillen: This is all in?

(8:50) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I'm like, I'm like, yeah, no, I'm, I'm joining the Marines. This is happening. And, she's, she's like, you could do anything. I'm like, yeah, yeah, there's a war going on. I don't know, I just don't... I had this calling, man. It was just like I was, I was polarized towards it and, it was all driven anyway by going all the way back to 9/11 and eighth grade. So. Yeah. I mean, essentially my whole time in high school, we were at war, you know, I mean, that was... I graduated in '06. So, one of the bigger things that I can recall, my buddy Aaron Lugo, he, we always partied at his house. His dad worked for the post office at night as a mechanic, I think. But regardless, he worked at night at the post office, and, so his house was always kind of a free-for-all. And we could go there and, you know, party and all that stuff. And I can remember being over at his house and his brother was a Marine, and he came home. And I mean, he was like, couple days home. And then he was leaving for Iraq. And I can remember him coming in and having, like... and now that I've been a Marine, I was a platoon sergeant and all that stuff. Like, I don't really know why he would have all of his, all of his gear. That is something I've, I've pondered quite a bit, but he had literally all of his combat gear and, so I can remember his brother being on the couch, you know, older brother looking down on us, you know, like, what's, you know, what's, what's like, gosh, shut up, kid. You know, go away. Give me a beer. You know, something like that. In reflection, he was probably 19. You know, oh, you know, 15-year-olds see him, so I... yeah. And, so I can remember that vividly. And then, and then he passed, and, house to house stuff and, from... it's been a long time, but if I'm not mistaken, from what I looked into, he had been in one of the bigger cities, maybe Fallujah or Ramadi kind of thing. And, was clearing a house. There was some type of concussion that occurred in a room, in a small room, and it started a brain bleed, like a swelling of the brain. And by the time they got to a house, you know, maybe one, two down, doesn't matter. But he just kind of dropped and it, it, the, the overpressure, from what I understand, is what ultimately got him. But I can remember school, they, when they, when they did his memorial service, all of the school was allowed to go out front and they drove, they drove him past. And I can remember, you know, I had a teacher whose husband was an Air Force guy, and I loved her. She was in the, like the... She wasn't just, like, an English teacher. She was a content mastery teacher. Because of my ADHD, I had this, like, place to be, like, you know, the teacher would get done with giving the, the lesson, and, and they'd be like, you're disruptive or you're not paying attention. Go in there. And, you know, so it's like a, a room where the, you know, people with dyslexia, learning disabilities can go to. And so I had her my whole time, like, and so she, when we went out for Aaron's brother, he, when he was being driven past, she had gotten me an American flag. And I can remember being one of the, one of the kids that was on the side of the road holding an American flag. And that was a, that was a very impactful moment, something that I, I know was a driving force, whether it was, you know, subconsciously or overtly. I, it was, it was something that I can remember, knowing that there was a way... it wasn't just, I'm joining for adventure. There's a, there's a cost to this. It is real. It's not just I want to go play with guns because I like explosions, you know? So. Yeah. So getting back towards, you know, graduation, and, and this recruiter dance. I went and did my ASVAB and, I scored pretty good.

(13:07) Justin McMillen: And, even though in school you weren't doing that well.

(13:11) Chad Wooten: Yeah.

(13:12) Justin McMillen: Nice. Yeah. Nice. For people who, who have a history of ADHD and are thinking about joining the military... Do you have any thoughts or advice for them?

(13:26) Chad Wooten: Yeah. I mean, you, you know, it's okay to not be able to pay attention. Like, school is regimented and taught to make, I think, good office workers. And, you know, there are people and there are jobs where people with ADHD and things of that nature, they thrive. They're just not challenged or put in the right place to be able to excel at that time. Because it's this, is what it go to English. Now, go to math, you know, go to history. I excelled in the classes that I liked, but I hated it. And I'm like, and they'd send me home with homework. And I was like, no, you got me for X amount of hours during the day. Like, my home time is my home time, dude. You know, like I did okay because we had study hall in football and it'd be like, hey, pass me the English homework, you know, and you just jot it down. But I don't know, it, it just, it, it, it felt forced. And I would say it's okay to not feel the need to go to college right away. I think the trades are great for people with, with ADHD and stuff like that. Working with your hands is great. Woodshop was taken away from a lot of schools. It wasn't something that I was offered. At least not in high school. So, you know, just whatever you do, learn something from it. Even if you don't get good grades, don't beat yourself up for having poor grades or poor discipline when it comes to those things. But learn as much as you can, even if you don't excel in the curriculum. Learn something about yourself, because that's how you can, later down the road, when you get put into a challenging situation, you can go, oh, I learned from that and how I can navigate this. Whether it's, you know, it's like, okay, I see the, I see the goal here. It's to know how to write a five-page essay. All right. Well, my brain's going to jump around and I hate reading these books. I got to read them. I got to read them line by line. Let me get a few paragraphs down and I'm going to forget where I was at. I'm going to have to bounce back. Okay. So if you can't take that time to learn how to discipline yourself enough to focus on the page, take something away from it. Don't allow the system to beat you down and make you think that you're not capable of doing what society needs of you, because you can thrive. I was with an incredible amount of people with learning disabilities that were in the military that are thriving. I mean, when I got to the military, we'll get into it. It was what I needed. I was, I hated school, but you got me into a military school where everything is to either teach me how to kill better or take care of somebody better. Like, you know, first aid to, you know, whatever it is, I... I'm focused, like, like, there's no putting that down. It's like, oh, okay. You know, like, it's like, oh, yes. Like, you're going to... I have to, I have to take this test so I can play with this machine gun. All right, I'm in. You know, like, I know that's, that's a good enough push for me. Yeah. But, yeah, just don't be discouraged. Everything's a learning evolution. And, and where I scored so well on the ASVAB, which is, like, for listeners, it's, it's basically the, the aptitude test. It's an aptitude battery. I don't know what the acronym is, but it's, it's an aptitude battery. So, you know, my general technical skills were good enough that when I got back to the recruiter, he's like, dude, you scored amazingly. You can do anything except play with nukes and learn a language, because language school is full and you've got too many waivers for legal stuff to be able to play with nukes right now. I'm like, I want to be a grunt. He's like, did you hear what I just said? I'm like, yeah, yeah, but I want to be a grunt. Like, that's, you know, I mean, I don't know. I had made up my mind and, you know, I think often about what would my life path have been if I had done that. Or at one point, because they had just put me on ADHD medications, the Marine recruiter was like, you're going to have to hold for six months before I can ship you, and be off of those so that I can give you the check in the box. So I'm into the Army and was like, hey, here's my ASVAB and, like, here's what I want to do. And they were like, dude, what, do you want to be a Ranger? Like, here's a signing bonus. And all this, just throwing everything at me that they could. I was like, oh yeah, that'll be great. And I went to one function where all the guys that were going to be joining the Army from that recruiting station in Texas, and I looked around and I was like, this is not the caliber of the Marines like I... This is... I call my Marine recruiter. I'm like, I messed up. The Army's kind of got my contract right now. He's like, what? I was like, oh, sir, you told me I had to wait. And I'm kind of impatient. Not like I want, you know? And he's like, where are you right now? I was like, leaving the Army thing. He's like, meet me here. Pulled my stuff. And I was like, okay. Well, hey, how does October sound for a ship date?

(18:41) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(18:42) Chad Wooten: Right? Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I wasn't trying to just be pushy, but I knew I had started.

(18:47) Justin McMillen: Which is awesome. Yeah, like, playing two different sides and you show up and you're like, these are my people.

(18:53) Chad Wooten: And I can totally see it. The Army recruiter is so bothered, he's like, you won't be deploying with those people, like, you were going to go to a very specialized thing, like the Army's big. And I was like, I mean, the Marine recruiter's already got my paperwork back. I'm sorry, man, like, you know. So yeah, he... But then, yeah. So I shipped, I shipped to boot camp in 2006.

(19:12) Justin McMillen: So now, for people who are listening, and you're trying to decide what division or what branch of the military do you want to go into? Excuse me, branch. What sort of things should a person think about when making that decision?

(19:26) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Unfortunately, at this point, the administration has to be considered. The administration, what wars we're in. Conflicts look different in different places. What your capabilities are, what you want to do, and what your longevity intent is for your time in service. Right? Because you can, you can change branches while you're in. But I will say, like, going in and becoming a machine gunner, there's not a lot of options coming out. It's like, okay, yeah, you're a leader, you're a machine gunner. You know, I mean, I had... I ended up going to some other places that kind of stacked my resume a little bit differently. But my, my general Marine infantry guys, like, you want to be a contractor? Do you want to be a cop? If you've got the skills, the desire, like, go be a helicopter pilot. They're going to teach you a skill that's taught by, you know, Bell or, you know, Lockheed or whomever. You know, go, go be an airframe mechanic. Go do something where you can get out and you can make good money. If you get into the intelligence field, you can get out, you keep that clearance, and it's easy to lock in a higher level job because of that. Not just background, but that security clearance, because that's very sought after. It's, it's something that, if you can walk out with, you know, a secret, secret's good. But, you know, top secret, TS/SCI, and go solicit yourself. Because ultimately, that's what you do when you leave. You're selling who you are, and that's going to be new to you. You've only sold yourself to the military. You're not writing a blank check. And, you know, civilian life is a lot different. But being able to say, hey, I went to this school, I was a leader here, I, you know, I, I did this, and this is, you know, my A school was for airframe, or, you know, I mean, you've got... now you've got a Space Force, but it just depends. I mean, I, I went into the Air Force recruiter's and they laughed me out of the office because I, you know, had some troubles with, you know, getting caught by the cops for having alcohol or, you know, silly stuff. So, it depends on what branch will take you. But when you're thinking about soliciting the branches, think about what you want to do. Part of it's adventure, but part of it is getting to do something that you're not going to get to do in the civilian sector. Like, yeah, the Army has HR. Do you really want to go to the Army to learn HR? Like, do you, are you that person that wants to learn how to do drill and march and go through a boot camp so you can learn HR? Go do something that you can't do except in the military, like missiles and machine guns. You know, like, I'm sorry. Like, I'm not going to get to do that elsewhere. So, like, that's super cool. Like, that was awesome for me. But different people have different desires. I would say just form-fit it to what... your... I'm big on, like, short, mid and long term goals. And what's your, what's your five year plan? Because you're going to enlist for, you know, say you enlist for, say, four years to six years. Are you going there so you can get college? Are you going there so that you can do something that you can't do in the civilian sector? What's the risk/reward? Well, if you're in the space that I was at, you're probably not going to be able to have a healthy marriage. Our divorce rate's very high. So do you want to go to war? Do you want to learn a skill? Do you want to have a job that is steady, do 20 years, have a retirement at an early age, and then get out and have a resume that's really stacked so that you can have a career in that? Well, if you want to do that, don't pick the ones that are going to destroy your body. I was only able to stay in for ten and a half years because my body gave out. You know, I never, I never did a B billet, which is like drill instructor, infantry instructor, recruiter. I was in the operational force the whole time. So, you know, ten and a half years was my shelf life. So I would say just think about it dynamically. Don't just be impulsive and say, this is what I want to do, because you are signing a contract and quitting is really not an option. Like, saying, like, hey, I'm done isn't really a thing no matter what branch you go to.

(23:41) Justin McMillen: So is there anything you would have done differently, if you, if you could go back and give advice to your younger self that's going to those recruiters' offices? What would you say?

(23:56) Chad Wooten: It's a really good question. I often think about what my life would have been like being in the Ranger regiment if I had made it. And I think I would have... my career ultimately led towards the special operations side of the house, and I would have gotten there on a much more accelerated path. I also would have been thrust into war a lot more violently and sooner, if I, if I had made it into the Ranger regiment. Career longevity, I don't know. Adventure and fun, maybe, you know? So, I don't know. I've also thought about, like, what my recruiter was urging me towards about, you know, maybe going, like, counterintelligence or doing something on, on that side of the house. I don't know. As far as my younger self, I would say, I'm proud of you. You're patriotic and you care. Don't let your body get destroyed so quickly. That would be, that would be my coaching to my younger self.

(25:15) Justin McMillen: Wow. That's a powerful statement. I think, helpful. You know, there's going to be guys going... there's going to be people listening to this that hear that, that'll be a good, I mean, even a clip to put in, right? And, and I think that's a big moment, right, for you. It's like you just fucking fired in there. I think you probably didn't think about it a ton. You came down with your head shaved. There's probably some people ruminating over this and, and making the right decision. And I think thoughts from a guy like you are valuable. So, so thank you.

(25:47) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Yeah.

(25:49) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So, so you ship out October.

(25:51) Chad Wooten: Yeah. October 10th.

(25:53) Justin McMillen: And then, and then what?

(25:55) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Got to MCRD San Diego here. Because the Marine Corps splits boot camp up by the Mississippi River. So if you're east of the Mississippi, you go to Parris Island in South Carolina. And then if you're west, you go to MCRD San Diego here. Unless there's, there's some exception to that. It's like, from what I understand, it's, like, generational. So, like, if your dad was a Parris Island guy, and you live in the Dakotas, you know, like, you can be like, hey, can I get exemption and, and go over there? But one thing that it does is it kind of does set you up, like, you're going to, you're going to go to School of Infantry on the East Coast or the West Coast if you're an infantry guy, and then generally just for financial reasons, which makes sense, you're going to probably go to either Lejeune if you're on the East Coast, or, you know, on the West Coast, come to Pendleton or to Twentynine Palms, like I did. So, go to, go to MCRD San Diego. I don't know, when I worked as a veteran service officer, I got asked a lot, like, oh, Marine boot camp, was that hard? And it's like, oh, man, it was fun. Like, I honestly, it was like, it was like football and track and... Yeah, and, and the drill instructors are hilarious. Yeah. And, like, if you're not, if you're not, like, being targeted by them at that moment, or, like, if you've got a lot of pent up energy like I do, it's like, oh, we're getting hazed again. Like, or so I trained, you know, it's like, yeah, put me in the pit, make me do some, you know, make me do flutter kicks. And, like, I got some energy anyway, like, let me get it out. So I did well. I didn't, I didn't, you know, I, I didn't really strive to be one of, like, the leaders at boot camp. It was really like, let's just kind of check this out, you know, like, there's, there's a lot going on. But I enjoyed it, man. I'm telling you, like, especially in reflection, like, so many funny moments. And, one of the first sergeants from my company that I graduated from down at MCRD, he ended up being my first sergeant over... and, well, he was a, I guess he was a staff sergeant at San Diego. But, you know, being my first sergeant over in [...] later on. And I was like, y'all are crazy. He's like, oh, we had so much fun. I can tell. Like, y'all were crazy, like, the door and just be like, did you see what you just did? Dude, you have no idea. Like, things that I won't go into because it was just, it was madness. But it was so fun. Like, platoon on platoon brawls. Like, just getting, getting to watch, because it's, I mean, it's, it's teaching you discipline. But, man, the drill instructors are having fun. Like, I mean, this is not, this is not great. But we had a kid that had, he'd gotten in trouble in another cycle, he got rolled to us. And then when we were doing The Crucible, you know, you're up for... I forget how many days, but it's like, you know, they, they limit your sleep, they limit your chow. And I only had so much chow. And this kid, like, he had gotten hurt during the Crucible because he got rolled to us. And so he got sick in quarters. So he got to, like, sleep in his tent in the field while we were all doing stuff and getting pushed through, like, the hard part of boot camp, you know, like a defining moment where you're going to get your Eagle, Globe and Anchor afterwards, you know, like, and this kid's... and my drill instructor says, like, I ain't never seen nobody, you know, as a kid at the Crucible, like... I'm around all this stuff and, they put him through it. They did not like him. And, so we were sitting there, we were cleaning the barracks afterwards. We were going to push back down south because, so you go up at San Diego, at least you go from the recruit depot, which is by the airport in San Diego. You go up north to Pendleton to do your field training and rifle range and things of that nature. And so we were up there and, having to clean up right after the Crucible, and kids, like, sitting up against the wall, like, nose touching the wall and, in style. And they were, I think they were processing him out or something. But he gets up and he just jumps off the deck and, we're on the second floor. And, drill instructor, you know, whatever. And, he comes out, he's like, did that bitch jump? Yes, sir. Did he go head first? I'm like, did he go head first? He's like, no. And I kind of did, like, a combat roll. I was like, no, sir. He can't do, like, a combat roll. He's like, okay, pussy. And then, like, goes back in and calls 911, like... it's like, you know what I mean? Sure, sure. There's, like, the whole, there's, like, an ambulance picking this kid up, and they've got to take us to chow. And he's just, like, this drill instructor just going off. It's like, it's jump off roofs and high school shit. I still jump off roofs, you know? Like, I mean, just, you know. Sure. Just stuff like that. Like, like, I don't know, you get three meals a day, like... yeah, I mean, there is, there are some stuff. I mean, they probably used a little bit too much water training on us. I think all of our bladders are bad now. Yeah, pee every hour kind of thing. But, you know, I mean, it was, it was honestly, it was, it was fun. Going back to, you know, being asked when I was a VSO, as, you know, outreach coordinator, I don't know, was boot camp hard? It's like, yeah, but, like, the fleet's a lot harder, man. Like, when you're getting ready for deployments and, you know, you're, you're in country. I mean, there's... I went through way harder things after boot camp. It's literally initial training, you know.

(31:22) Justin McMillen: And it's not even really getting you there, right?

(31:24) Chad Wooten: No. I mean, it's fun.

(31:26) Justin McMillen: I think, what is it... what do you think the primary outcome is of boot camp? Is it really, is it like a rite of passage? Is it, is it just meant to bond everyone? Is it to bring you into, like, the Marine Corps culture?

(31:42) Chad Wooten: It's all those things. If I'm, if I'm being brutally honest, at least back then with the war going on and everything like that, you know, big picture, Marine Corps boot camp is meant to break you down, refine you into what they need so that you can be a Marine. It is, it is, it's, you know, pressing of a diamond, and it's a lot of pressure. And then you're supposed to come out. And, but boot camp, you can go be an administrative clerk or motor transport or an armorer or an infantryman. I mean, I want to say Marine Corps, these, back then, I was, like, 180 to 200,000 strong. And it was like the infantry is only like 30 to 33,000 of that. So, you know, everybody else is support surrounding the warfighter. But, you know, I mean, there's air wing, there's frickin', you know, I mean, there's, there's all these different jobs. If I'm being honest, that, you know, when I was going through, they made us martyrs. That's, you know, it was, you get stripped of I, me and my. And you get told that everything that is important is about the team. It strips you of your personal identity. And that's why everybody's so proud to come out a Marine. But, you know, a lot of the... when we talk about moral injury, part of what's so hard, I think, for specific portions of the military, Marines in particular, infantry guys, that, you know, you get broken down and basically told, yeah, you're like, we're the jihadis for America. It's like, go. And, like, come on, man. Like, you believe in the cause. All right, good. Like, let's go. Like, no questions asked. Just run at it. And I think that a lot of the guys that I've worked with that have been hurting coming out of service, at times myself, some of my best friends, you know, it's like, we didn't get to fulfill our mission. You know, it's like when we start, when we, here in a little bit, start talking about the suicide rates and everything like that. I think that there's a dramatic issue in the Marine Corps because, one, we were told that killing's okay and then you're worthless. And so when you get out, you're lost, and everything you're taught is about the team, and then you have no team surrounding you. You're setting yourself up for failure. And that's where I see a lot of guys falter. A lot of guys fail. So our suicide rate's so high. So, you know, it's, it's a little bit dark, but, you know, I don't know how boot camp is nowadays, and I'm not saying that everybody's experience is the same. But I can tell you that that was one of the things after I got out that I had to really take inventory of, was I never had a plan to live coming out. And once I realized that, it was probably three years or so after I got out, I'm like, oh, no wonder all the guys are killing themselves or drinking themselves into, you know, alcoholic stupor. And I'm having to help guys get to rehabs or losing their families. You know, all the legal issues that come from it. It's, you're distraught and then you're, you're messed up on top of it physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And, and then ultimately, all you were, all you wanted to do is fulfill your mission. And if you didn't get to do that, that's a heavy weight, you know? So it can, it can come home with you afterwards in a way that's not just that terror and trauma that I saw downrange, you know. For, for the individual, it's, it's literally a... you feel like you didn't serve your purpose.

(35:28) Justin McMillen: So I want to be clear. I think you're saying that to serve your purpose, you're talking about sacrificing your life.

(35:38) Chad Wooten: Yeah. I mean, yeah, if it comes down to it, like, get into the scrap, man. Get into it, you know, get into the fight that you want. And, you know, rules of engagement change. And then you, you know, you kind of, you accept death at such a young age. And then you come out and you're alive and you're confused, you know? You don't understand. Why am I here? What's my purpose? Why do I hurt so bad? Why do I feel as though I didn't do what was needed to keep my buddy to my left or my right alive? Why are they still killing themselves? You know, and that weight... Stacks and stacks and stacks. And it's the, it's that weight that gets onto a veteran's shoulders that, you know, suicide rates increase. I think the Marine Corps, certain infantry units, in the Army as well, the SOF community, I think it's predominant there for that reason.

(36:32) Justin McMillen: When you, when you say this, I can feel [...]. It seems like this has got... this is heavy for you. There's a lot of pain around this idea. Was it the right way to get you guys prepped in that way? How do you understand it now?

(37:02) Chad Wooten: I think that war has been part of culture for as long as there's been written history, written and before. I think that war is inevitable. I think that, you know, Carl von Clausewitz said something along the lines of, war is merely the action arm of failed politics. And if we've learned anything, our politicians aren't going to be able to fulfill what's needed. So war is inevitable.

(37:27) Justin McMillen: Is it necessary?

(37:30) Chad Wooten: Yeah. And as society gets softer in the United States and in the first world, the third world is still going to remain savage. How do you take, how do you take a video game, pampered kid and say, hey, we're going to make boot camp easy on you? And then we're going to, like, just take you over to this, like, probably one of the most traumatic, horrific things that you're ever going to have to do and ask you to be, you know, with permission... But, like, someone who's capable and has the authority to take someone's life. I mean, the way that we're taught and we're broken down, there's a lot that goes into the psychological development of a Marine, and that is so that you have the ability to make that critical decision at a moment's notice, but you also understand the weight of your action. So, like, we weren't just turned into, like, bold-faced killers, of course. But we had to be prepared for that, you know. Boot camp, like I said, boot camp was fun. You know, you get to your infantry unit and things changed, man. It's big boy world. Like, it's, hey, we're going to a place where these guys just got back from seven months ago. And, like, the stories they have are like, prepare yourselves. That was one of the most devastating things about when I got to Iraq, is just seeing how savage humanity can become to do these things. And Iraq at that point was more on the insurgency side. So a lot of people coming into Iraq to fight, as opposed to, like, Iraqi nationals. I'm not saying that wasn't a thing, because there definitely was, but people are capable of really disgusting things. And I think it is necessary. I think you do need to be able to take someone, break them down, and teach them that primal instinct. And that's, that's what boot camp is, man. You got to get down, get primal, get fit. Yeah. Mentally and physically. So, you know, there is pain, but if you don't experience that pain, then you're gonna experience a lot more pain on the battlespace. Make sense? I mean, you need to be, to be prepared.

(39:59) Justin McMillen: I think setting a person up to say, look, you, this is likely to turn out... or you're going to be sacrificing your life, but having you fall in love with all your brothers that are around you, this seems like the perfect setup to, to make sure they were able to go into a savage world and, and do what we need to do, and to maintain, I guess, maybe a certain amount of what America stands for.

(40:21) Chad Wooten: Yeah, that there's a cause and a purpose here.

(40:30) Justin McMillen: And, so it sounds like boot camp was a big shift for you.

(40:34) Chad Wooten: Well, boot camp was the starting point.

(40:36) Justin McMillen: Yeah, but then, so what happened after that? We keep kind of... these are interesting roads, right? Nice. Good. Yeah. Snacks and water.

(40:45) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I left, I left boot camp, went home. Got my last little bit of trouble in Texas. I was on my ten days of leave after boot camp.

(41:04) Justin McMillen: Well, what'd you do?

(41:06) Chad Wooten: Man, there's this, there's this dude, I'm not going to say his name, but, you know, I moved down to Houston my senior year, and, from Dallas, and in Dallas, like, you got a problem? Pull up in the cul-de-sac, and y'all fight. And that's obviously how you meet some of your best friends. You know, like, you see a lot of similarities in others that, you know, and then you get into scrapping, like some of my best friends, you know. But, down in Houston, it was, it was a very, it was a very high-end neighborhood. And, a lot of kids that were spoon-fed and, I don't know, it was, it was one of those things he kept... I hung out with the kids that were a grade above me, and they, they had another dude in their grade that he kept trying to scrap with my friends. He would never show up. So I was like, oh, you know, well, I said, I'll, I'll scrap with him. And then he would never show up. And, so he bailed on me, like, at least twice. And I'm just, I don't know, that's not, that's not how we were. So I got back from boot camp, and my buddy Phil had a welcome home party for me, and I don't know, that dude decided to show up, so I just put my beer down, punched him in the mouth, and, I didn't know... I didn't know how bad I had hurt him at the time. And, you know, my friends are like, dude, dude, you know? I'm like, it's cool. I went back drinking my beer, and my girlfriend that I'd had since eighth grade was there, and she's like, oh, great, again. And, you know, so we went back to my parents' house and, I honestly, I was like, well, the cops are gonna come. They never did. And so I got, I got to School of Infantry and, you know, riding on the bus, they land you in San Diego and they drive us up to Pendleton. And, so we get there and we're doing check-in, and we're out on, like, the basketball court and, they call my name and, like, put on your uniform. You gotta go see First Sergeant. And I'm like, gotta go see First Sergeant? Like, right? Like, I've never had to talk to a First Sergeant, you know, like, what's going on? And so I get up, I'm like, post up outside of his office and I'm like, what, what is, what is going on? And, so I get in there and he's like... I report in. He's like, how was your leave? I was like, it's good, First Sergeant. He's like, what'd you do? Like, saw some family, saw my girlfriend. He's like, well, did you get in trouble? Like, no, First Sergeant. Okay. So who's [...]? And I was like, well, you know, he's older than me. He's bigger than me. He always dipped out on fights. He showed up to my welcome home party, and, and, I don't know, I hit him in the face. He's like, okay, well, I got his dad on the phone, like, he called the school. And, you know, he's like, you know, like... I'm like, all right. I'm like, I'm a grown man too, right? Yeah. He's calling the Marine Corps. Yeah, about a guy that punched his son in the mouth. Yeah. Well, come to find out, his mom was a lawyer, so that, that circles back here in a second. But, he, First Sergeant was like, hey, sir, you know, I got Private Wooten here and, this is what he did, and this is what's going on. Sounds like the kid's bigger than him, older than him. And he just popped him in the mouth. Are you good with him going into training? He's like, you good with it, First Sergeant? I'm good with it. Like, okay. You know, I'm like, dude, this is, like, seriously, this is high school all over again. My, my principal in high school had my mom's phone number on a sticky note on his computer. Like, I was constantly in trouble in high school. So I'm like, oh, no, you know, not again. And, so he, he picks up the phone and he's like, sir, yeah, I've got, I've got my Marine here. And it sounds like your son's a bully. Older than him, bigger than him. And, he learned a lesson. Where are you? Oh, you're in Texas. We're in California. If you want him, come get him. Click. Apparently that was the family trying to call before the family pressed charges on me for assault with bodily injury. I apparently knocked four of his teeth out and four of them loose or something like that. I don't know, he required dental surgery or something. So he was like, oh, all right.

(45:27) Justin McMillen: So, yeah, you feel, you feel like you got wrapped up. So, like, I mean, as far as all your leadership, for sort of taking care of you.

(45:34) Chad Wooten: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was like, oh, I could have gone the other way.

(45:37) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So now you're on the radar.

(45:40) Chad Wooten: And, yeah, like, who is this fucking guy? And, dude, at boot camp, like, you go, you have to go with, like, drill instructors and stuff. It's scary. It's like, oh, we're at Man Land now. I'm like, nice. All right. Cool. You know? And, so yeah, yeah, it did. I did feel good. Until, I went home before my first deployment and, I got married, actually. And, we're driving up north, I got pulled over for going a little over on speed, and, I got pulled out because I had a warrant.

(46:10) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(46:11) Chad Wooten: Yeah. So I found that out on my honeymoon. That wasn't cool. But it's like, it didn't go away now. Yeah, but that was the last legal problem that I had. Legitimately. No speeding tickets, nothing after that. Like, like I said, I learned all my, I learned all my legal troubles, you know, early.

(46:28) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(46:30) Chad Wooten: And bounded through those. So, the Marine Corps really did do good for me, but that was my last, that was my last little thing before I left Texas. And, excuse me. Yeah. So that was my check in the box from boot camp to School of Infantry. And, yeah. And, went through, you know, the first, like, three weeks or so, there's just general infantry stuff. And then, and then they come to the point where they do the split, and you get to decide if you want to do a specialty job. So, we, MOS, military occupational specialty. So in the Marine Corps, you've got... oh, so it's four numbers, and 03 is the designator for infantry. So whatever your MOS is, if you're an 03, you're infantry. You got, you know... So I was an 0331. I ended up becoming a machine gunner. But, you know, they've got 0311s, a rifleman, you know, 0331's a machine gunner. And then mortarmen are 0341s, missilemen 0352s, you know. So it's just a code designator. But, so they were doing the split, and I wanted to go be an assaultman, because I like explosions. And they, they played with demo and rockets. And I was like, I want to do that. And, and my, my best friend... I actually, I did a math test and they only had, like, ten slots or so, and I, I scored, like, 12. So they were like, hey, you're going to be on ready reserve for, for that. And my buddy Big Red was sitting there and he's like, dude, be a machine gunner with me. I'm like, dude, I'm small. I was 155 pounds. I'm like, I'm tiny. He's like, be a machine gunner with me. I'm like, okay, like, I can do that. And so, yeah, I was like, all right, I'll be a machine gunner. So I went through machine gun school, which is awesome. Explosives are cool, but the assaultman MOS ended up getting phased out of the Marine Corps. And, so I, you know... yeah, it was, it was good, man. Taught me how to carry heavy things pretty early on. You know, we've got everything from direct fire weapons, from, you know, like machine guns, medium machine guns, and get into .50 cals. And my favorite is the Mk 19. It, it shoots grenades, it's belt-fed, too. Awesome, dude. It's awesome. You shoot a grenade 2,212 meters, like, I can, dude, I can shoot 'em like mortars. I can shoot 'em direct. Like, it's amazing. It's the best. It's like, so... but the weapon itself is very heavy. It's 77.6 pounds and... Yeah, that's like, without ammo, without tripod, any of that stuff. So that, that bad boy's heavy. But, you know, .50 cal's heavy too.

(49:22) Justin McMillen: Did you get these when you were in training?

(49:25) Chad Wooten: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(49:26) Justin McMillen: Oh, like in combat, you had the Mk 19?

(49:28) Chad Wooten: No, I didn't. No, no, we were, like, pretty much by the time our time in Iraq, we might have rolled with them. My first deployment, we might have had them on gun truck three. But I was always in, I was always in the lead vic. So we would have, like, either a 240 or .50 cal in the front so that we could use it for escalation of force. So, but, yeah, I was always, I was always in lead vic. So. Yeah, School of Infantry went awesome. That's where I met my, my boot camp best friend and I, Big Red, he, he's a big fella, hence the name. Yeah. So they called us Team David and Goliath, because he had bad eyes and he was strong. And I had really good eyes and might have been small, but, like, if I didn't have enough shoulder pressure shooting the machine gun, he would just be like... And I would, like, all of a sudden, butthole tight, shot groups, you know? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah. So we were, we were called Team David and Goliath, and, yeah. So that was... I got through School of Infantry and, so the way that, we, we call young Marines that are going to the fleet boots, you know, they're the young guys, the new guys. Army calls them cherries. We call them boots. And so our boot drop from School of Infantry was, like, 180 dudes. From, so, I, five dudes ended up going to 5th Marines here at Pendleton, and then all the rest of us, like, 175 of us, got shipped up to Twentynine Palms, California, which is up past Joshua Tree, up in the high desert. So, so, Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center. And, it is 900-some square miles of let's go blow shit up.

(51:03) Justin McMillen: Yeah, it's out there.

(51:04) Chad Wooten: It's cool.

(51:05) Justin McMillen: Yeah, it is. It's just a cool part. It's such a weird, Mars-like area, you know, that whole... it's like you're out there and it just...

(51:11) Chad Wooten: It's so quiet and still, you know, and you can hear gravel and people walking from miles away.

(51:19) Justin McMillen: Absolutely.

(51:21) Chad Wooten: You know, and then the stars.

(51:23) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Super cool. Do you ever see anything crazy floating around up in the sky there?

(51:25) Chad Wooten: Yeah.

(51:26) Justin McMillen: What did you see?

(51:27) Chad Wooten: So my first UFO experience was that, it was at Twentynine Palms. You're out at Range 400 or 410 and, you have to get up and do fire watch, which is, there's no fire, but you have to basically, like, you get up and somebody's awake the whole time while everybody's sleeping. And, so I can remember real clear night, and mountain range over to the east and, I just saw this thing, like, pop up, and I was like, wow, it's really bright. It was far enough away that I was, like, having a hard time judging its distance away from me. But yeah, one and then another and then another, and then, like, it went this way, like, its axis went this way. And then another one popped up right here. It started making an L, and then, like, this one that was over here wiggled, disappeared, and then all of a sudden it was on the vertical.

(52:23) Justin McMillen: Shut up.

(52:26) Chad Wooten: I swear. Yeah. I'm like, I'm watching it for, like, I'm up for, like, an hour or two hours, something like that. And, like, I'm watching it. Dude, I got my rifle out, like my, my optic on my rifle. I'm, like, watching the stars, you know, they're moving, you know, with the cosmos or whatever. And, dude, like, I'm watching them and they are stagnant over this mountain range, but it's, like, far enough away, like, at first when they were, when they were going, like, one, two, three, I'm like, oh, a plane must be doing, like, flares, right? Like, I thought it was just far away, you know, there's out towards... because basically the way I was facing is, like, generally towards Vegas, you know, just out that way. There's, dude, it goes, it gets real desolate. You got the Amboy Crater, which is a trip because there's, like, weird satanic stuff that happens on the top of that. We got thermals, we got thermals. And, like, so I've seen, like, some wild stuff on top of that.

(53:20) Justin McMillen: Like, this was, like, we had to come back to that. Guys. Yeah. Cool.

(53:23) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Dude, there's crazy stuff that happens, man. And we've got night vision, so it's like, you know. So I'm, like, from looking at this, I'm like, there's no way. Like, what, what is that? Like... It doesn't make sense.

(53:34) Justin McMillen: And then, did you say anything to anybody at the time?

(53:36) Chad Wooten: Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. So I wake up, I wake up [...]. I'm like, I'm like, dude, like, you got fire watch. And I'm, like, spun up. I'm like, it's two, three in the morning. I'm like, bro, dude, you got, like, dude, there's this frickin' light. And he's just like, dude, shut up. Go back. You get, like, two hours of sleep, go to bed, shut up. Wake up the next morning, first thing he says, bro, I saw that thing you were talking about. That was crazy. I was like, I know, right? And, like, that was crazy. Yeah. So then the next one, we're out in Iraq on my first deployment.

(54:05) Justin McMillen: As far as, like, protocol, was, were you required to report it or put it into any... No. Where were you at the time where you're like, that was a UFO?

(54:13) Chad Wooten: I didn't really know, man, I kind of assumed military. Like, I didn't know what it was. It was just, it was just bright lights. But I never saw it like that, like, it, like, because they were, like, they're very luminous. But, I don't really know.

(54:30) Justin McMillen: How far away would you say this is?

(54:32) Chad Wooten: Probably hundreds of miles. Oh, I don't know. It's like, I don't know, like, I've done... I, I'm a nerd about this stuff because I've had these experiences and, like, watched some podcasts, a lot of the Bible stuff. And I, like, I don't know, it sounds very similar to some of the stuff that Bob Lazar talks about with, like, them having these craft that could kind of, like, bloop, bloop. You know, and bright lights and stuff. So I don't know if it was that. Like, it's facing out towards the same direction, so it could have been hundreds of miles. I don't really know. Like, I mean, it was elevated enough that it was over the mountain range. It was, it seemed to me to be very high, atmospheric, but, like, not in the stars, you know what I'm saying? Like, it was, it was in atmosphere.

(55:14) Justin McMillen: Okay. So whatever it was, was inside atmosphere.

(55:18) Chad Wooten: Yeah.

(55:19) Justin McMillen: That's a trip.

(55:21) Chad Wooten: The next one's even crazier. So same place, same Twentynine Palms. No, Iraq two.

(55:23) Justin McMillen: We're going to talk about... in an hour. You wanted to, you want to wait until we get to that Iraq deployment?

(55:25) Chad Wooten: I mean, we're on the UFO thing. So, cool. So this one, we're so weird. I was in a mobile, I was in a mobile assault unit, or, is it Combined Anti-Armor Team? So we got missiles, machine guns. We were the number one force for the battalion. There's, like, organically the infantry battalion, there's two Combined Anti-Armor Team sections. So we've got two missiles, javelins. Mk 19s, .50 cals, 240s, 249s. Heavier assets for, for the battalion. So we were kind of the 9-1-1 force, whether it was come in and kick some ass or whether it was, hey, we've got a medevac or we've got to secure an area or somebody's getting overwhelmed, all the way to, like, we got to take this dude to this place, you know. I mean, we were, we were kind of an interesting element. I had originally, when I got up to Twentynine Palms, I was in, I was in, I had gone through the sniper indoc, passed that, and then ended up coming back to the Combined Anti-Armor Teams, because there was, to me, machine gunners had passed. We got taught how to carry heavy things and move distances. So too many machine gunners passed, so they pulled us back. But that takes me to... so when we can circle back. But Iraq second deployment, my gunny, like, all my, my truck's really tight. But we were kind of like traveling gypsies. Our, our other section of four trucks had gone up to be the battalion support for the battalion commander and the EOD convoy escort. And so, it was just us at the company, at the company outpost. And, as far as for our platoon, and the other platoons were whole. So they had their own villages or small towns that each one was in charge of. And we were kind of roamers. So we ended up doing a lot of long range desert interdiction operations. We rolled with tanks, we rolled with light armored vehicles. We pretty much got to see a good swath of Al-Anbar. If it was north of Ramadi and all the way up to the Syrian border, and across the Syrian border, we were able to, we did a lot of operations all over. So, between, like, the Thanksgiving and Christmas time frame, we ended up over on the, the eastern side of the Euphrates. And we had posted up, and since I was a driver on my first go for the majority of the time, drivers get first watch. That way you could get consecutive hours of sleep and not get woken up midway through the night. And so I'm on watch. What we do at night is we circle the wagons. So all, all four trucks, each one would kind of pick maybe a cardinal direction, whatever it is. Terrain feature will kind of dictate, but we, we face out, right? And, vic four was like, hey, flip down your NODs and look to the west. And it was over the Euphrates. And, you couldn't see it through the naked eye, but I flipped down my NODs and, like, dude, like, if I drew, like, a Simpsons-style UFO, like, the lights going across the center of it, to, to, to, to, to, to. Dude, like, you could see it and I'm like, whoa. So I'm like, Gunny. And he's on the, he's on a computer sending up our position and, you know, our logistical needs and stuff like that. My Gunny... Gunny, you got to see this. He gets out of the truck, flips down his NODs, and it's just like, gets back in the truck. I'm like, what is that? He goes, they love our wars. Go back to watch. I'm like, what? Like, it's like, yeah, dude, shut up. Go back to watch. Like, that one, like, that was when I was like, what? Like, dude, are you... He basically just confirmed that whatever I saw in the desert, I don't know whose it was, but that wasn't it. What [...] and I saw could have very well been something in the same category as whatever was over Iraq.

(59:30) Justin McMillen: So. Well. And he acted like he knew.

(59:36) Chad Wooten: Yeah, he was just like... he was like, they love our watch, go back to work... late, go back... they love, they love our wars, go back to watch. Sorry, heard the brain flip there.

(59:47) Justin McMillen: And so when you're looking, because you have your NODs on, you're seeing... you're just seeing it more clearly.

(59:53) Chad Wooten: But it was too dark to see it with the naked eye. Yeah. And it was far enough away that, I mean, it was, it was probably like, you know, I don't know, like, that big as you looked at it over the horizon. But yeah, it was just chilling. Just floating.

(1:00:04) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's so wild, man. Yeah, I can't even. Yeah. So you obviously believe in UFOs.

(1:00:09) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(1:00:11) Justin McMillen: That's interesting.

(1:00:12) Chad Wooten: Big Red and I saw some stuff when I moved up to Washington, too. It was like two fireballs falling at, like, two in the morning. We're hanging out in the hot tub on New Year's, was like these two fireballs, like, falling. And then they kind of went different directions. We were like, that was weird.

(1:00:27) Justin McMillen: There's so much of that going on right now.

(1:00:31) Chad Wooten: Yeah. And when you're awake at odd hours and you have night vision and you're paying attention to the sky, there's not a lot going on. I mean, you're watching the sky, you're watching the ground, you're watching the horizon. Like, I mean, you're, you know, you're being attentive. You're making sure that you're keeping the boys safe. Like, you're watching everything. As soon as you see movement, you're like, oh, what's that?

(1:00:56) Justin McMillen: And, you know, do you think that's why so many, so many military have seen stuff?

(1:01:00) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah. Because they like hanging out around where we're fighting, like my Gunny said.

(1:01:03) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I don't know.

(1:01:04) Chad Wooten: You know, maybe a little bit of both. Yeah. Yeah. I can remember being at the, at the schoolhouse, and kind of all of the, all of the guys that had deployed, the infantry guys, we kind of had our own little corner as far as the, like, student squad bay, and we're all kind of sharing similar stories to that. And I turn around and all the guys that hadn't deployed are standing around, like, what? What is it? And, like, everybody had different stories. I mean, another guy had a story of, like, orbs coming into the Afghan valley and, like, doing, like, an EMP-style pulse and, like, taking out all their comms and stuff like that. Big Red's got crazy stuff from Afghanistan of, like, orbs coming into the valley and, like, moving around and stuff. Like, yeah, I don't know, different places, different things.

(1:01:48) Justin McMillen: So you saw UFOs, but no, no biologics, no, nothing like that.

(1:01:56) Chad Wooten: No, we don't get to go retrieve anything. Nah, nah, nah. We did find some other stuff. Well, we didn't find it, but there was stuff there. There's, like, some YouTube articles on some things that were left in Iraq. That has nothing to do with that. But it's...

(1:02:12) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Like, let's get... let's, let's keep going. Let's go. So, where were we at?

(1:02:20) Chad Wooten: You were, we jumped around a little bit, but we, we were talking about my, my training in Twentynine Palms.

(1:02:27) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Work up, build up.

(1:02:29) Chad Wooten: So I got to, I got to 1/7, First Battalion, Seventh Marines, very historic battalion. And we're up in Twentynine Palms. It's just a regiment that's up there. And the desert's our home. So, like, training in, like, desert warfare, that was, that was our bread and butter, man. And we were very good at it. It was, it was really incredible. Like, I didn't realize until I got to Camp Lejeune how privileged we were. Because, like, and I was a platoon sergeant out in Camp Lejeune. It's like, we only had, like, one range where we could shoot TOW missiles. We only had, you know, a couple where we could shoot javelins, and, like, the .50 cal ranges were very, like, controlled. Like, out there you could do maneuver by fire, fire and maneuver with trucks, like we could do. We could shoot TOWs most anywhere. We wanted. I mean, it was like, it was cool. My first range that we did after I left snipers and went back to the Combined Anti-Armor Team, it was like we put up some targets on the back side of a hill, and then we just drove around the, drove around the hill and, like, we're practicing, you know, like, shooting targets on the move. It's like, yeah, we couldn't do that.

(1:03:42) Justin McMillen: At least, you know, it's all structured.

(1:03:44) Chad Wooten: Yeah. You know. Yeah, I mean, the fire fans and, you know, where's that bullet going to go, math has to come in. And it's like, yeah, it's just not how it was. So out in the desert, I mean, that's where everybody goes to shoot, military or not, because it's just forever and ever. Yeah. Yeah.

(1:03:55) Justin McMillen: So, yeah. And it probably prepped you too for Iraq. It's a similar terrain.

(1:04:00) Chad Wooten: Absolutely. Yep. Every, every unit that's going to Iraq or Afghanistan at that time had to come through Twentynine Palms for a 30 day training evolution called, it was like CAX. It was like Combined Arms Exercise. And it was Mojave Viper. I don't know, it had, it has different names at different times, but, yeah, it's the, it's the place that you go and you do your proving to the Marine Corps that you're combat capable. And so we were doing those same ranges that units were coming from Hawaii, North Carolina, you know, or Pendleton to come out to. That was our backyard, man. I mean, we're running those ranges five, six times a year before we even get to CAX. So when we get to CAX, we're... it's like, stamp, like, you're good to go, you know what I mean?

(1:04:44) Justin McMillen: This is like playing on the home field, right?

(1:04:47) Chad Wooten: It is. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, but because of that, I mean, we were, we were really good. We were really good. So, but I got there, you know, like, I was kind of saying about, like, the difference between, like, boot camp and, like, getting to the Fleet Marine Force. Being a junior Marine in Twentynine Palms and stuff, like, I mean, it was tough throughout the whole Marine Corps at the time. But hard training, I loved it. I, it was like I was saying about, like, when I was going to school and things of that nature. It's like, I hated that. But, like, you get me into a Marine Corps school or you put me in these, in these, these units, and it's like every day we're going to be pushed harder and harder and harder physically and mentally. And, like, I loved it, man. Like, I loved, like, my seniors hated it because it would take two of them to be able to haze me until they could, like, like, they could listen. Yeah. Like, one of them couldn't. Yeah, one of them couldn't take me down. It was, like, they'd have to, they'd have to double up, kind of thing. So, but yeah. So it was interesting, you know, the senior Marines that we had had been on some, some difficult deployments prior to, and, you know, so they were preparing us for that. And, you know, it was, it was grueling. And you go through all of that and then you get to Iraq and then it's like, all right, that stuff's aside. Now we're in a truck. We're living together. Like, you've been through it, like, you're here now. Like, you're still going to do the dirty work, like, you're still here. We got to, you know, go, go grab the stuff, load the truck up, wash the truck, you know, get the truck ready, like, you're going to do the low tier stuff. But you're not, you're not necessarily treated quite as badly as you were. You know, it's, it's just, it's training. It's hazing training. So, it was... but I had, I had some tough seniors, man. And, learned some really bad lessons from them, like how toxic and, like, poor leadership could be. And, so went through, through that. And then we, we launched to Iraq. We landed in Al Asad and, loaded up our stuff and, whole company made movement. Our battalion headquarters is out of Hit, Iraq. It's like Hit, which is close to the Euphrates. And we were, weapons company was further down south. So, yeah, we're, you know, there's major MSRs, or main supply routes, something like that. We were, we're right on one of the major ones that goes north-south up to Syria. And, but we were, we were down at the southern end of our battalion AO. Rolled around, did a lot of stuff. Like I was saying, we're kind of traveling gypsies, so got to do a lot of stuff that wasn't necessarily like village stabilization operations. Did a few, like, you know, cordon knocks and things like that. So, roving. Yeah, a lot more of that. You know, the snatch, VCPs, you know, like vehicle checkpoints where we, you know, like, all right, hey, get that vehicle there, there'd be like a BOLO list, it'd be like, hey, there's a white Opel, which, I don't know. That's like seeing a Tesla here in California. It's like, there's a white Tesla everywhere, like, you know. So it's like kind of same, same there. But snatched a lot of vehicles. Rolling around with tanks was interesting. Those guys were a trip because they did not care. They're like, a tank in the open desert. I can see for miles, and I'm in a tank. Like, they literally had, you know, like, the table umbrellas that are, like, rainbow colored that you put on, like, a big, like, over a big table. They had those, like, as basically like, come on, let's go. Like, we're right here. I know I'm in this big tan beast, but, like, come play kind of thing. So yeah. They were fun. Did some stuff, you know, from, from, like, far, far up north on the Syrian border. Around Christmas, we did a big operation from Al-Qaim all the way to the western AO.

(1:09:11) Justin McMillen: From the time that you got to country, and then, I'm sure it was real the moment you got there because you're like, wow, we're not training anymore. The new issue is, like, this environment and what we're doing every day, as opposed to toxic leadership.

(1:09:28) Chad Wooten: I mean, there's toxic leadership everywhere.

(1:09:30) Justin McMillen: Yeah. But was there a moment that you suddenly realized, like, oh shit, we're doing this?

(1:09:32) Chad Wooten: Yeah. It was the first day that we ever rolled out of the wire. You know, you get to Al Asad, it's like the big... it's the big base in Al-Anbar. And, you know, you get your trucks, you get your gear, you get all your briefs, you get all your ammo, you get all your stuff, and then you load up and it's like, we're going to make movement. Well, I know exactly what day that was because it was my birthday. And on your birthday in the Marine Corps, you get dead-legged and pink-bellied. So I got, like, splayed over the Humvee. And, you know, they pull your shirt up and hit you on the belly, and then a lot of dead legs. So, like, by the time we rolled out of the wire, my leg was shaking. I couldn't tell if it was from fear or if I just couldn't feel, like, I'd been dead-legged, like, so bad, you know? But that was, like, you know, that was, that was... it was like, all right, it's go time. But you trained for it, you know? And, it felt nice to not be treated like a second class citizen by your seniors. Like, just that little bit of, like, all right, it's man time, you know? Like, it helps with the mental shift as well. But, yeah, it was, you know, we got there and then, like, within the first couple days of getting down to our first, down, down to our COP, down at COP Riggs, one of the days, just massive explosion and, some Iraqi, I think, police were trying to pull over what ended up being a vehicle-borne IED, and it... Dude, it, it just, it just wrecked them. They brought back, like, a lot of the body armor of the Iraqi police and stuff. And they, you know, they put it at the exit point, like, the checkpoint leaving base, and basically, you know, like, complacency kills kind of thing. And the sign's basically like, get your wits about you, boys, like, you know, we're here. So, being in the, in the mobile section, especially having a little bit more freedom of movement since we weren't doing village stuff, did a lot of runs up and down the main MSRs, whether it was for logistical purposes or getting to a different place so we could go and do longer range patrols and things like that. We, we were the... we would get called out for a lot of, like, IED finds. Found a couple ourselves. Crazy. One was a donkey-borne IED. They had a donkey that they had, is, I hope, already dead, but they had shoved a bunch of 155s, the artillery shells, in it. And, so that one was, that was interesting when the Navy guys blew it.

(1:12:07) Justin McMillen: How'd you find that?

(1:12:09) Chad Wooten: Dead donkey, wires coming out of the belly. So I don't remember if it was command det, like, if they had a wire going to it, or if it was remote or what. But I'm pretty sure my turret gunner saw it. And, I mean, if we see something suspicious, like, we'll halt, you know, we'll just stop so we can suss it out. My seniors not being the best, they made me play a game called Kick the Bag, which was, hey, there's a bag. And there is no, like, junior guys in my truck. It was just, like, me, my vehicle commander, and my turret gunner quite often. And then our Gunny sometimes in the back. So they'd make me, like, go out and play Kick the Bag, you know, like, run up and, like, kick it and be like, oh, that one's hard. Yeah, we should probably call EOD, you know. But, like, I would use observation before I got to that point. But, you know, it was still, it was one of those, being the junior guy in the truck, because you don't want to pull your other trucks up. I mean, we have different SOPs for different things, but...

(1:13:14) Justin McMillen: Yeah, it seems like whoever's having you play Kick the Bag hasn't had that go wrong, otherwise they'd be fucking smart enough to not be such an asshole about it.

(1:13:23) Chad Wooten: You know, I never thought of that.

(1:13:26) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I think the moment you see that go wrong, you're like, yeah, that's probably not the move. That seems weird. I can see culturally, like, if it's a joke...

(1:13:33) Chad Wooten: Can we call it that? Yeah. You know, that's the name of it.

(1:13:36) Justin McMillen: Yeah. But, they're actually... that seems... I don't know. At the time, did you think of it as being fucked to do that, or was it just kind of like, this is a joke?

(1:13:49) Chad Wooten: A little bit of both. Yeah. You know, first couple of times it was probably pretty nerve-wracking, man.

(1:13:56) Justin McMillen: Yeah, somebody's got to do it.

(1:13:58) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah. It's true.

(1:14:00) Justin McMillen: I don't know, there might be a better way, I don't know.

(1:14:02) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Yeah, you'd think. Yeah. But what would happen is we'd call EOD and then it would take them three hours. We'd have to sit there, wait for them. Just go kick the bag, kick the bag, dude. Yeah. Like, if you blow up, we know we're good. Yeah, yeah. Well, we're good. We're not good. Yeah. We weren't... We wouldn't have been good. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that was, it was a good deployment in regards to, like, my development. I was kind of always... I was meritoriously promoted to every rank when I was in, except for, except for one. And, you know, so I... well, my seniors may have been pretty fucked up. They also, they did develop me. I was one of the... I was the only junior Marine they got to lead a patrol on the first deployment. There wasn't a lot going on at that point. So it was like, hey, we need to go down and clear this thing. So, like, write this op order.

(1:14:58) Justin McMillen: And it was, what year is this?

(1:15:00) Chad Wooten: '07 and '08. This was sort of in '08 when that happened. But yeah. There was, there was some contractors that were down to the southwest that they had found some stuff that ended up being interesting. And we were their closest unit.

(1:15:26) Justin McMillen: So what do you mean, interesting?

(1:15:29) Chad Wooten: It's like things that were like... If, if this got mixed with that, they would be maybe, like... stuff that could be the only reasonable reason that we were in Iraq.

(1:15:51) Justin McMillen: Really?

(1:15:53) Chad Wooten: Yeah.

(1:15:54) Justin McMillen: So when you hear people say there were no weapons of mass destruction, that's not your understanding.

(1:16:01) Chad Wooten: I think there was a lot of things there. I don't know. I have a hard time with Iraq now, in reflection, because it's like, I don't remember Saddam being the one that had the towers taken down, you know what I mean? So, do I feel justified in everything that I did in Iraq? And I'm, I'm comfortable with it. Do I think that overall we were there for the right reason? I don't know, I can't, I ebb and flow on it. I think we did some good. But ultimately, those cultures don't do well with democracy. So your culture is, you know, like, your neighbor... So you kill them.

(1:16:47) Justin McMillen: Yeah. There's so much to that, Chad. I mean, what you just said... yeah, it was, I think everyone was confused at the time. Like, what are we doing with Iraq here? What's your take on it? Why, what do you think the political powers were thinking when it came to sending us up there? What's your best guess, or what's your opinion on it?

(1:17:13) Chad Wooten: I think there's an array of countries that were identified as potential threats that could destabilize the Middle East. I don't know. There's some smaller things. You know, if I'm not mistaken, I think he was talking about potentially coming off the OPEC dollar, which is, you know, was our... we, we got off the gold standard. We created the OPEC dollar, or the, you know, the petroleum dollar. And that's how we're traded, or how petroleum's traded in the world, net, you know. So it stabilizes our currency. But I don't know, man, I wasn't in DC, you know.

(1:17:57) Justin McMillen: So, you know, do you think that as, as a warfighter you should even be thinking of these things?

(1:18:02) Chad Wooten: Well, you asked me how I would choose or encourage someone how to choose a branch of service nowadays. And, you've got to think about all that stuff. Geopolitics is a lot more dynamic now that everybody has a little rectangle with a camera on it and all the information you want in the world. Back then it was newspapers and, you know, Walter Cronkite or whoever the right dude was telling you...

(1:18:25) Justin McMillen: Yeah, telling you how you should perceive the world.

(1:18:29) Chad Wooten: So, you know, and we trusted our politicians a lot more before you could do your own research.

(1:18:36) Justin McMillen: I think about this a lot. I think about American supremacy, or America's need to stay first, as a matter of global security or just even the, the, the best outcome for the human species as a whole. Yeah. And, and so then if you, if you start from there and you say, okay, well, to do that we have to maintain leverage and strength in all these different areas of the world. And to do that we have to control resources. And, you know, we have to have different states in power in different places. Then maybe, I don't know, but maybe even going to Iraq, if it was for money or control or oil, if it ultimately led to the United States being in a position of authority to keep the world in order, then, then it probably is a good thing. You know, I mean, if it's as simple as just, we're going to war to get back at or to kill the person who's trying to kill us, and there's people trying to kill us all the time. Yeah. If it's that simple, then no, it was terrible. But if it's, it's about maintaining global order, all for the survival of the species, because we're the best option at this point.

(1:19:55) Chad Wooten: Yeah.

(1:19:56) Justin McMillen: Then, yeah, I mean, the service is warranted.

(1:20:03) Chad Wooten: And, you know, that's how I look at it. That helps me feel better about it.

(1:20:08) Justin McMillen: Right? Yeah. I remember we had a guy, when I was in college, this guy came, just fully, you know, all the brass and the whole deal. And his thing was to let us know that there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And he was very vocal about it. It was weird. I went to listen to a talk and, and he was extremely passionate. He was very upset and, and, I'll never forget it. But then we talked about it in one of my classes, and it was like, well, does that matter? Yeah. You know, what if it's all about oil and money? It's like, well, okay, what does that lead to? Like, let's be smart about this. What does being about oil actually mean? Yeah. Is it just to make a few people rich and there's lobbyists, or is there an important strategic move for the U.S. government to maintain a certain amount of strength across the world so that we don't end up with China running the show or Russia running the show? At the time, they weren't talking about Russia so much, and China was last. But, but these are interesting ideas.

(1:21:06) Chad Wooten: Yeah. It's just like a prizefighter that, you know, has to stay top, get in the ring every once in a while just to show that they're still capable.

(1:21:11) Justin McMillen: Yeah, maybe that. Or maybe it's just like, for example, you mentioned the petrodollar, right? So the US economy is totally dependent on it being traded. The dollar being traded, using all these things to back it. It's essential. We can't, we, you know, the dollar loses value if there's not trade agreements that the dollar's, you know, used to buy and sell different goods and commodities around the world. So if we lost that and the US economy started to tank and then other people were at our heels, we might end up with, in the future, a different hegemonic force in the world. And that could have been some other force that could be causing our life to, I don't know. I mean, yeah, to tell this to a guy like you who's been there and seen it and done it and sacrificed, it's probably audacious and wrong.

(1:21:57) Chad Wooten: No, I'm not offended. You know, I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty open and open-minded, but also observant. And, like, I had a conversation with Tulsi Gabbard. She'd come out to South Carolina for a trip, when she was running for president, and, my buddy Andy, he ran Warrior Surf Foundation, and he's like, hey, this is my friend Tulsi. She's in a wetsuit. Like, I know my politicians pretty well, but I didn't know this, you know, congresswoman from Hawaii. And, it's like, yeah, this is, this is my friend Tulsi. She's, she's going to say some things. We're not political here, but, like, you know, she's like, hey, I'm Tulsi, I'm running for president. I go, of what? She goes, the country. And I'm like, oh, all right, put on my little political hat. I'm like, so what's your platform? You know, and, but she'd already been in the ocean, like, hair was wet, in a wetsuit, you know, like, she's, she's just surfing with us. And, she was awesome. So we, it was a horrible day of surf, and it's in Charleston, South Carolina, so it's not great surf anyway. We end up getting washed down, like, a mile, a mile and a half, and, so we're walking back and she's like, Chad, you know, don't you think we should, you know, stop these endless wars? I'm like, yeah, but, you know, I, I don't know you well, but I take you to be somebody who cares about nature and stuff. And, like, do you understand that, like, if we leave Afghanistan right now, what's going to happen? Because this would have been like '17, '18. I'm like, if we leave Afghanistan right now, the largest, at the time, untapped lithium deposits in the world are underneath their soil. And China is going to step in and they're going to strip mine it, and it's going to destroy nature out there. People are all going to get paid out, and you're not going to hear much about it. But, like, it's going to destroy what is beautiful and natural out there, if there is much. I didn't go to Afghan, so I can't speak. I got a lot of buddies who did. But she's like, okay, what about, like, we just put Marines in Saudi Arabia because they were hitting, like, the Yemenis or somebody were hitting the oil pipeline. And I was like, do you know what the OPEC dollar is? And she's like, no. She didn't.

(1:23:57) Justin McMillen: Ha. Too damn smart, Marine. What do you do?

(1:24:01) Chad Wooten: Well, she didn't really have... she's like, I don't... like, yeah. She'd be like [...] to that. And I'm like, I, you know, the OPEC dollar, you know, blah blah blah, gold standard. Here we go. You know, and she wasn't, she wasn't completely ignorant on it. But she was like, I don't really know. And I'm like, I was like, okay, well, you know, we, we ended up having a beautiful conversation and it was awesome. At the end, like, she leaves, I told her, you know, if she ever comes up to the upstate of South Carolina, like, you know, let me know. So she comes back a few months later and I've got pictures with her, man. And, she comes back. Just big ole hug as soon as she got out of the car. I'm, you know, and, she, she just wanted... she just got done with some campaign rally, and her team was like, is there any veteran stuff going on? And I guess the Army-Navy game, we're at this, you know, bar, restaurant, and all the West Point and Annapolis folks, they get together every year, they watch here in Greenville. So she came, and, so I gave her a big ole hug. And, like, one of the first things she said is, dude, I looked into that stuff you're talking about. You were right. And I was like, how did... it sucks. She's like, you know, it's like, yeah. This is... so I don't know, my... I had one of the smartest officers I've ever had in my entire life. I love this man. This would have been in, like, 2012, the 2014 time frame. I was at Lejeune. And he would, he would pull all the platoon sergeants in and, his initials are G.T.M., and we used to call it getting GTM'd, because he had this, like, giant brain. And he would just sit there and he would start on a subject, and then he would dance around and go over, like, three other things and, like, three hours later, or an hour or two, three hours later, all of a sudden he would, when he saw the exhaustion on our faces, he would circle it all back together and, like, it... But it would be, like, in a platoon sergeant office, late night kind of thing. We're like, like, sir, I know you were in Fallujah, because that's what my second deployment was, to Fallujah. And I'm like, you know, I know you're out there, like, ISIS is starting to take over. Does it bother you that, you know, we did all this stuff and, like, the power vacuum that was created? Now ISIS has got all this stuff that we worked so hard for. Because my deployments were on the latter part, you know, of the, of the war in Iraq. And we were turning it over to the Iraqi forces and the Iraqi people and trying to, you know, foster democracy and things of that nature. And, he was like, you know, one of the greatest things that it did is it created an open field where borders weren't super secure so that any insurgent from around the world could come in. If they wanted to get a piece of America, they could do it. So we were able to attrit a vast sum of insurgents from all around the world that had something that they wanted to, you know, get their anger out on, on the US, and they can't get a visa to come into the United States. So they came to Iraq. That's why we were fighting insurgents, not necessarily the Iraqi populace, so much as, like...

(1:26:58) Justin McMillen: It's a honey, honey trap or whatever.

(1:27:02) Chad Wooten: Yeah. It was.

(1:27:04) Justin McMillen: Yeah, like, open the door and let them all come.

(1:27:08) Chad Wooten: Yeah. And come on. Yeah. And he wasn't wrong. And he's like, we got to do it in mostly, you know, open areas where... yeah, I mean, like, the second deployment was a lot of, you know, stuff in the city, but, you know, open desert where we've got the technology kind of thing. You know, it's not Afghanistan where they fought off everybody since, you know, like, Hannibal, or, you know, all these...

(1:27:32) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Historically. Yeah. I guess it doesn't go so well for the occupiers.

(1:27:36) Chad Wooten: And so, yeah, it's in their blood.

(1:27:39) Justin McMillen: Nice, deep. It goes back forever. I think, it's interesting, what I'm thinking about is how you mentioned moral injury earlier. Right? And I think it's so, it's so fascinating to me. And I don't know what you think about this, but just how at any point in time we can look at our lives, we can consider things and we can choose to frame them in these different ways. Right? So, and I think the natural tendency for humans, especially if we have pain, is we want, we want some sort of roller coaster to throw that pain in, to go on a ride. Okay. So as mentally we're going through thinking about stuff, if you've had a history where you're, you're in pain, the pain doesn't have a place in the world yet. It's just in there. And then you're like, oh yeah, Iraq. There weren't any WMDs. And it was fucked that we were there. That, that's where I'm gonna put it, you know what I mean? Like, choosing where to, where to drop in and run, you know? Because you could look at anything in life. And this isn't me talking to you. I'm just talking, okay? I'm talking to you, but I'm just sharing ideas. You could look at anything in life and see, like, the big brain guy you were talking about, this, like, yeah, we just did this and it created this honeypot and it pulled everyone in. And then we were able to address it. Or you could say it like, it's all greed and so-and-so got a contract for X company to build a bunch of shit here, and that's why we're here. Yeah. Either way, like, wherever you're going to be able to dump your pain, yeah, is where you're going to probably, where not you, but people are going to attach. And I wonder if, if some of the pain that happens after coming back is about trying to figure out a place to put the pain. And then you look around you and there's all this messaging, it's like, oh, well, there's an injustice here. Yeah, listen to this better. And there's an injustice here. Yeah. So it's like, where do we put our pain, you know? Like, how do you address that?

(1:29:30) Chad Wooten: Yeah. I mean, it's not like that wouldn't make any sense. Just 100%. Yeah. Like, it's the at what cost, and, like, to what end. Right? I mean, I kind of got to the point where I was like, we're going to be yelled at and said we were there for oil. Like, I wish we had just levied a bunch of oil money.

(1:29:48) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Like, yeah, it would've paid for it. Yeah.

(1:29:53) Chad Wooten: I don't know, I think that Eisenhower warned us of the military industrial complex, and I think that's part of it too. I think as far as dudes coming back, I mean, the moral injury, like, I was kind of saying about, like, the martyrdom aspect of, like, being a Marine, it's like a lot of the guys feel like they didn't get to fulfill their mission. A lot of guys feel like they didn't get to get into the, you know, the combat that they wanted, and myself included, you know. I mean, you train, you train, you train, you get taught all these skills that nobody else gets, and you're really good at it. You're really proficient. And then you get to one of the most dangerous cities in the world, and there's an administration change. And then the previous deployment, a vehicle got within 300 meters of you, you were starting your escalation of force. Now we're integrating, the vehicles can drive on the highway and they can integrate into your convoys, and you can't do anything. And then, you know, we're getting rounds coming at us and it's like, well, just push through because we're in armored vehicles and, like, whatever, you know. Like, they're going after the Iraqi police and the Iraqi army a bunch. You know, the fight's transitioning. And they really liked going after the Army guys because they knew, like, there was that kind of, that rubber band of, like, that pent up aggression that had been pulled back, that they knew if they, if they messed with the Marines, it was like, okay, like, maybe shoot at the Army guy driving by or the contractors, you know. So, like, there was a lot of, a lot of that. RPGs were pretty real. The second deployment, at least the threat of them. There's still a fair amount of IEDs, mostly hitting other companies. But yeah, it was, you know, I mean, I don't know, it's, it's so hard because it's like, granted, my combat experience, like, as far as, like, pulling triggers, like, in the combat zone is, is quite limited because of the time span that I was there and the ROEs. But, like, you almost, like, you're so driven towards that, that you, you desire it so badly and then you feel like you didn't get that. And I got, I mean, it's like, you know, I never got to do my thing. Like, we all... so our first deployment we were in for seven months, we turned over with 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines, and they came in and then we went back and replaced them. Seven months later. So seven in, seven out, seven in, you know. Typically you're supposed to have dwell time as an infantry unit. You're supposed to have time to decompress and, decompress, re-stabilize your forces, you know, get new guys in and stuff like that. We didn't have that. And so when we were leaving Fallujah, everybody was so bitter about how it had gone down and how tied our hands were, that 3/4, I don't know if it was 3/4... One of the other battalions from the regiment was going to Afghanistan shortly after we were getting back, like a few months later. And the commanders, you know, asked who wanted to, who wanted to cross and go over with them. And, I mean, it was like almost 200 guys or something like that. And, myself included. And, you know, at that point, my, Ashley left. I got her up there in between my first and second deployment, and we were young. It really wasn't fair to have her moved out to the middle of the desert in the middle of nowhere. Well, I'm going to be gone for seven days, back for... gone for ten. Back for five. You know, constant, the training cycles. The tempo is so high, you know. So she had left and, my First Sergeant, when I was trying to cross back to go to Afghanistan, was like, no, you need to go rekindle the marriage. And I'm like... and it happened, like, just let me go to Afghan. So I didn't get to go to Afghan. Big Red went to Afghan, a bunch of our peers went to Afghan. And there it was more, the ROEs were a lot less restrictive. So, you know, the guys, but they were, you know, they were, they were jumping. They were jumping. They were running at that combat. I mean, it's, it's addictive and they're running at it and trying to, trying to catch it like Pokemon, you know? And I'm glad I didn't, in some ways, because I ended up... MARSOC came down and did a recruitment thing, and it was basically, if you had the ASVAB scores and the scores and the rifle scores and some other stuff and the clearances that I had, that you had to go to this interview thing. And so I did, and that's, that's where I ended up going. And I don't, you know, I might have ended up there. But, like, all the guys that did Iraq, Iraq and then Afghan, like, they all got out and they got out fast because the Obama administration, they started a voluntary early release program, and so dudes were coming back from Afghanistan and then they were out in three weeks or whatever. It's not a proper amount of time to have guys that are back to back deploying and then, you know, send them out. I think that was part of not just the moral injury, but also, like, the physical injuries. And then, like, your receipt of damages done and, like, what's it for and why? I think you're kind of getting towards that. And it's, you know, what's it for and why, man? It's, it's something that digs deep in, in, in a lot of vets. And I think it's like, as you get a little older, you kind of start to see it for what it was. And was it worth it is hard to weigh out when you go to the VA and, you know, you've got all this receipt of damages done, you got this, you know, this litany of injuries. And it's like, it's like, oh, man. You know, I mean, it's like getting out, getting out was really hard. So I, you know, I, and I know it was for guys that did just four years, five years, six years. I ended up doing ten and a half.

(1:35:58) Justin McMillen: But did you end up fully transitioning to MARSOC? Was that... so?

(1:36:04) Chad Wooten: I got to the... I went and did assessment and selection and, well, let me backtrack. So I didn't get to go to Afghan. But I promised, after I got done with the MARSOC in-person screener thing, I told them, I was like, hey, I promised my C.O. that I would do the next deployment, which ended up being to the Pacific. And the, the MARSOC recruitment thing was, was interesting because I was so bitter and I didn't want to go and stay in the forces under the current administration because of how hard they had tied our hands. My dad, love my dad, man, and his great influence on me. And he did one of those dad Jedi question things. It's like, it's like, well, if you go and you try out, like, what happens if you don't make it? And I was like, I guess I get out. He's like, so why don't you go try? You love your job. You're good at it. Like, at this point, I was in pretty much command and staff as, like, a young Marine. Like, I mean, I had, I was getting sent on advance party. I was at the, like, the company headquarters level, but also still, you know, in Fallujah. I was my commanding officer... I was his vehicle commander. Part of the leadership there, but, like, also was helping out at the armory, and then I was also helping with, like, company organizational stuff on the logistical side. So, like, I was, I was a shining star. I mean, I was, yeah, I was, like, I was combat meritoriously promoted on that deployment. I was, you know, I got, I got promoted and then medevac'd that same day. And then, you know, it was like, I took the, the anger that I had from Ashley leaving, and I just drove it straight at work. And I was at that point, I was like, well, I'm just going to marry the Corps. And that's what I did. So I still had those toxic leadership traits that I had been taught. And, you know, I'm proud to say that after I left 1/7 and had gone to MARSOC, I learned what good, accountable leadership looked like, and that you could actually elicit a lot out of a man by not just beating them down and demoralizing them, but actually seeing their strengths, seeing their weaknesses. And, rallying the team around to compensate for their weaknesses and complement their strengths, you know. So I got, I got that developmental thing, but yeah. Thanks, Dad. Like, you know, like, why don't you go try? So, I went on the, I went on the MEU in 2010, the Marine Expeditionary Unit, and, that was interesting. Ship life is very different than what we were accustomed to. But came back from that, bunch of other guys from my battalion also had slots to go to assessment and selection at that time. And, so we got back from that deployment. We trained up during that deployment and then got back, and then we went to assessment and selection. So there's, like, I don't know, probably, like... well, I'm not going to give numbers, but there's a lot of dudes that went and a small number of that that graduated. And it was, it was cool.

(1:39:32) Justin McMillen: So yeah. What's your take on MARSOC overall? I love it. For people who don't know what it is. I mean, yeah, we've talked about it on, and we've had, like, we've had quite a few, I think three now. Yeah. And which is crazy. It seems like God just keeps dropping MARSOC guys in our direction. I don't know what it is. If you guys are telling each other to come here or what.

(1:39:49) Chad Wooten: But, there's a Care Coalition that takes care of us better than the big boys, and... okay, some of them have a strong affinity for y'all, and that's okay. That's how I got here as well.

(1:40:02) Justin McMillen: I see. Well, we like it. I'm a huge fan. Everybody knows it. I'm a huge fan of the Marine Corps. So, my grandfather was a Marine. My dad wanted to be a Marine, but his dad was like, nah, you can go in the Air Force so you can learn some shit that you can actually use afterwards. Oh yeah. So Dad did Air Force. And yeah, that was, that first eight years Dad was still in and he was planning on doing life. So I was supposed to, you know, be the kid that's being pulled from base to base kind of a thing. But, and I went a different direction. But, yeah. So MARSOC. Cool. Tell us about, give us your love, love story of MARSOC, because, yeah, I love hearing the way you guys talk about it. And it seems like it's still finding its identity. So it's cool to have you on here. Yeah. And share.

(1:40:43) Chad Wooten: Yeah. I got there in 2011, is when I did assessment and selection. And, you know, that's, it's why I, like I said, I mean, I'm grateful for how hard, my seniors, for all their flaws, they beat me hard enough that I learned how to be tough. So, you know, it was one of those things that that mental fortitude going over there really paid off. Having a strong back also helped. I don't have such a strong back anymore. I had, you know, three spine surgeries later. Here I am. But, you know, this is what it is. But, yeah, it was, it was an honor and a privilege. I mean, I, you know, I got to, went over there and you go, you're basically with, I mean, the program percolates up the top performers in the Marine Corps, and it brings in people that, like, like I said, I was, I was, as far as in the company, in the battalion, I was, I was on the higher end of, you know, some of the, the guys that were capable, but you go from the battalion and there's, you know, a handful of y'all, to, like, literally you're in course with all those dudes. I mean, there's a few turds, but, like, I mean, it's, it's like, it's wild. I think they do an incredible job. There's so much of the land-based operations stuff I had never done, anything that wasn't... well, that's not true. No, I don't, I don't... Okinawa. So I had a little bit of time doing some training where it was... It was green, but it's a lot different going from, like, living your life as a desert warrior to, like, going over there and not just doing, like, hey, there's green foliage now, but, like, the highest level of, of training and all that stuff. So it was incredibly professional. And you're just, you're around guys that, that are your peers that you're like, whoa, like, you're a stud. And then you, you look at your instructors, man, and they're like, you're just, like, walking gods. You're like... I mean, I remember being in the schoolhouse and, like, one of our staff sergeants, like, they pulled us out for a Friday formation. They're like, staff sergeant just got his Silver Star. So, like, here's a citation. All right, tell 'em about it. Okay. And he's just like, yeah, it was a Tuesday. And it's like, all right, boys, that's what you guys have to look forward to. Have a good weekend. You know, it's like, you know what I mean? It's like, okay, you're just telling stories about, like, hucking grenades and, like, assaulting a frickin' hillside, you know, like, like, cool, like, you know. And being, having the rug pulled out from under you, you know, like I said, on my, on my last combat deployment, it's like, this is where the warfighters are, you know, and this is where I get to do it, you know? And my, my dad was like... I was like, I'm going to go skydiving. He's like, you wait until the military pays you for that. I'm like, well, that's a good idea. I can do that. You know, like, and, you know, so I didn't end up getting to go to jump school, but, I got, I got hurt before I got to a team. But yeah, it was, man, it was, it was cool. And, I was there in 2011. You know, we had gunnies and staff sergeants and everything like that in the schoolhouse with us. And, so I, I ended up tearing my shoulder right before survival school in 2011. I actually, I think I tore it in assessment and selection. And then I just made it worse. But they were like, hey, you can't, you can't go through SERE school right now because, like, dude, your shoulder's bad, like, you need to go get surgery. So I ended up going to, to Duke and got surgery. And they pushed me back to the fleet. I went to, went to 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, and, ended up doing some time over there before I went back over to MARSOC. So they just needed me to heal. But, the way that they take care of the boys, the stuff you get to play with, like, really cool, the people you get to be around, and I mean, it takes it from, like, this is my job, to, like, this is my profession. Like, you really, you're like, I want this, you know? And, like, if, like I said, if you've been basically told you need to be a martyr, like, what better place, you know? Like, let's go do it with the best of them.

(1:45:14) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And you're going, you'll have the chance.

(1:45:16) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah.

(1:45:17) Justin McMillen: So, a small unit too?

(1:45:19) Chad Wooten: Very small.

(1:45:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's like, like, is it the smallest of the SOF community?

(1:45:23) Chad Wooten: If I'm not mistaken. I don't know, PJs might be.

(1:45:28) Justin McMillen: I was going to say, like, like, yeah. Like some rare animal that just pops up every once in a while.

(1:45:33) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah.

(1:45:34) Justin McMillen: And the combat controllers.

(1:45:36) Chad Wooten: Yeah. But, but, yeah, they were... it would be less. They would have to be. There's just not... I mean, they're attaching to units, right? They're not... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, so, like, first deployment we had some, we had some high level dudes from some units that were operating around us in, in Iraq and then in Fallujah. Aside from... because my, my section, we were, like, the last conventional forces that were pushing into, into town, you know. So I had some experience seeing what the results of combat look like. I mean, you drive around Fallujah, man, every building's pockmarked. I mean, it was like... and it was, it was wild. Have you seen Training Day? So there's a scene in Training Day where they're like, they're like, what are they doing? They're like, clapping pigeons. There's like, over, like, so over the mosques, when we would roll into town, they literally would be clapping pigeons and, like, flying kites, like, hey, the boys are rolling in, you know. Like, so it's like, I know, like, luckily they were going after the Iraqi police and Iraqi army at that time. But at least I'd at least seen the battlespace. I knew, I knew what it looked like to be on the operational side. So it's like getting to do that in a small team with everybody that's so committed. I'm a very team-oriented person from playing sports in high school all the way through. You know, my, my platoons were, were very tight. And so it was just, dude, it's the pirate life, man. It was the pirate life for me, you know what I mean? Yeah. And it's like, let's do it with the best. And, so, yeah, went through... for people who are listening, so MARSOC, so it'd be like MARSOC, SEALs, Rangers, Green Berets. I mean, so, yeah, MARSOC, SEALs, Green Berets. And then, like, Rangers, they're, they're a wild one. They're, they're, like, support, but they also operate at, like, a very high level. And, so my buddies that are Rangers, they've got incredible stories because they're, they're rolling with the big boys, like tier one, like Delta. DEVGRU, SEALs, they're like the, the... So those tier one dudes, you know, if they need support, they can pull from pretty much any of us to, to get support to do the outer cordon stuff. And, you know, in, in, in Fallujah on our deployment, one of the CAAT teams was going out and working with those guys, and I just, you hear stories when they come back. Me, like, they all call each other by their first names. Like, they, they move silently, like, it's, you know, it's like... it's like wizards. Like, you just, you get to see wizards on the battlespace.

(1:48:29) Justin McMillen: We had a guy come through here that when he, when he first told us that that was his background, I didn't believe him. You know, it's like, you get people... there's so much stolen valor. These are, you know, veterans. But, guy that I met doing the work I do, you know, the work I do. But then he's like, I want to introduce you to some people. So we all flew back to North Carolina and we got to meet with, like, the chief medical officer of their unit. And it was, it was all real. It was. Yeah. He ended up being one of my dear friends.

(1:48:58) Chad Wooten: Yeah.

(1:48:59) Justin McMillen: And he, he passed, similar to what we're gonna talk about here. But he took, took his own life.

(1:49:04) Chad Wooten: I'm sorry.

(1:49:05) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It was so shitty, Chad. I had, so, talked to him two days after Christmas, and I knew he was just, like, in his head. Is his, his issue with his... the baby mama wouldn't let him see his kids. And, and, he was upset, but we had an amazing conversation. Last thing he said to me was, he's like, I love you. I mean, we were, we were really tight. Had a picture of him hanging up at my house for a long time, and my kids still talk about him, and... And so I booked a flight to Raleigh. And he, he took his life, like, less than two days before I got there. So I didn't, I wasn't showing up to intervene. I didn't have a pre, you know, an idea that, that that was what was going to happen. But, I knew what he was going through, and I was really excited to see him. He was working at, like, a deli, which was so crazy. Yeah, yeah, he was working at a deli, and I was like, what do you think... he knows what we're talking about. There's, like, contractors, human trafficking, all these things that may be more interesting for him. And he was like, nah. He's like, you know, I was sick for a while. And then, like, I came back into work and, you know, these, like, big old huge ladies that I work with, they're just, like, hugging me and telling me how much they love me. And he's like, I know it's simple, man, but that's, like, where I'm at right now. I just want to be around people who love me. He's like, I don't really, you know? He's like, I could easily go do... yeah, he was a really cool guy. Beard down to, like, here.

(1:50:42) Chad Wooten: Nice.

(1:50:44) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. He... yeah. You would, you would really like him. Low ego, super kind. Knew everything. Been to so many schools, had so many... he was talking to my son Finn about picking locks and stuff and guns, you know. It's like, Hank's got some stuff, you know?

(1:50:52) Chad Wooten: Yeah. So anyways, I'm sorry for your loss, man.

(1:50:59) Justin McMillen: No, I shouldn't be. This is, this... this show is not about me. So I just, whenever I think about it, I can't help but to talk. So. Yeah, he's a really special dude.

(1:51:08) Chad Wooten: When you meet one of those giants, man.

(1:51:10) Justin McMillen: Yeah, they're, you know, they're titans. Yeah. You can't help but just look at them with just eyes of... Just like, God, you're spectacular. You know, I went to his funeral in Arlington, you know, and it was like... it was so trippy to see him. First of all, so many of his old unit showed up there. So it was just, like, such a crazy cast of characters. Yeah. And then they, you know, give the flag to his wife and... Yeah. I mean, there were so many things that he did that he didn't... there was just no way, he would care less about talking about them. But it was just... and it was like, look at this show for this man. Yeah. You know, and he's just rolling around on his beach cruiser when he was here and just smiled all the time. He always had a cigarette hanging out of his mouth and a giant beard. Just gross.

(1:51:59) Chad Wooten: Yeah.

(1:52:01) Justin McMillen: So, anyways, we shouldn't talk about him anymore. So.

(1:52:05) Chad Wooten: Yeah, the tier one guys are an interesting breed.

(1:52:09) Justin McMillen: You said you got injured, though. Shoulder, right? That was at the end of your, the time at MARSOC?

(1:52:12) Chad Wooten: No. So I ended up, they had me go back to the fleet. I went to 3rd Battalion, 6th Marines, another illustrious battalion. And, went back to CAAT. And, man, that was when I really developed as a leader, and was able to take those bad skills that I had learned from toxic leadership and took the skill sets that I learned from these, these MARSOC guys and was like, look how much more I could get out of these guys, right? The development part of it. And, that was where I had that big brain captain. And, so I spent, spent a workup with them. Basically, the colonel gave me a letter from MARSOC that was like, hey, go back, six months after full duty, after your surgery, you're going to come back. So by that point, I had done a workup with 3/6. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna let my boys deploy without me, even though it was just back to Okinawa. We went to, we went to mainland, did some stuff. I found a dead guy on Mount Fuji. That was an interesting one. Yeah, caused a couple international incidences on that too. Pow!

(1:53:27) Justin McMillen: Well, what happened?

(1:53:30) Chad Wooten: He was, he was, it looked like a climbing fall. Like, he was a local national. So he had... we had gone up, climbed in a cloud, came back down, and as we were coming down, the sun, it broke through. So we were just kind of amazed how far you could see. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I don't think we're on the same trail. Did a map study, started skirting the mountain. There he was. And, so we worked with the local Japanese police to get him recovered. I stayed in contact with them, and they were able to get him back to his family, which was pretty cool. But they didn't know whether to bust me down in rank and punish me or give me an award, because I told my First Sergeant... I was like, hey, First Sergeant, you know how you told us if we have any contact with the police, bad or good, then we need to tell you? He's like, yeah. Like, so this happened. He's like, are you serious? I'm like, check it out. And he's like, whoa, like, that's crazy. All right, so you're good. I'm like, yeah, I made it back by curfew. He's like, okay. And so we ended up flying back to Oki with command and staff and landed at the airport. And one of the lieutenants that stayed behind for the company was standing there and read me my rights in the, in the airport. And I thought it was something that had happened at Jungle Warfare School about a month before I left, and that was not it. Anyway, lieutenant reads me my rights. And he's like, did you find a dead guy on Mount Fuji? I'm like, yeah, like, check it out. He's like, that's crazy. Hey. So the PACOM commander called down to the Camp Fuji commander, and he told them, hey, Colonel, great job on [...] them finding that guy and blah, blah, blah. Like, that's awesome. Looks great for our relations with the, with the local nationals. And, well, it was winter conditions, and we weren't supposed to climb the mountain until the first of, and every weekend, "Don't climb that mountain. Don't climb that mountain, so don't do it." Well, I did, the weekend before we left. And, so anyway, I had to answer when that lieutenant was like... he's like, are you serious? And I was like, yeah, like, here you go. He's like, dude, PACOM commander called the colonel and was telling him, like, what a great job you did. And, the colonel was like, oh, thank you. And got off the phone and was like, who the fuck is Sergeant Wooten? Because he had no idea, we were a visiting unit. And, so the colonel wanted my ass, the PACOM commander, I think, wanted to give me an award. And, but the lieutenant is like... It's like, yeah, like, oh, did you tell anybody? Is it... ask your First Sergeant. He's like, First Sergeant, did he tell you about this? He's like, yeah, he told me that morning. And he's like... 'cause I had technically reported it up. So they're like... they ended up being like, hands are tied. Yeah. Yeah. But they were like, well, they want to award you or bust you down. Can we just call it a wash? I was like, yeah, that's cool. Whatever. So, but yeah. So anyway, did that deployment, other than that and whatever happened at jungle school, nothing really noteworthy. Oh, actually, that's not true. We were, I was spearfishing offshore off Okinawa, and the North Korean...

(1:56:47) Justin McMillen: Speargun or sling?

(1:56:49) Chad Wooten: It was sling.

(1:56:51) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(1:56:52) Chad Wooten: Yeah, it was sling. I don't know if guns were allowed in Oki at the time, I don't know.

(1:56:57) Justin McMillen: No, I don't think they were.

(1:56:58) Chad Wooten: Nobody, nobody had guns out there, that was out where we were at. It was all just, it was the three-prong spear.

(1:57:01) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And it's my... yeah. That's... I shoot big fish with those.

(1:57:06) Chad Wooten: Nice.

(1:57:07) Justin McMillen: I'm way more into that than... I mean, I haven't done blue water with the big guns, so. Yeah.

(1:57:13) Chad Wooten: But I think it takes a lot of skill to do that, right? With a three-prong.

(1:57:16) Justin McMillen: So, absolutely, man.

(1:57:19) Chad Wooten: Yeah. So we spent, like, most of the weekends we'd be out and doing stuff. It was a fun deployment. But spearfishing, yeah, a lot of spearfishing. You know, just, I don't know, wherever I went, I would just immerse myself in the culture. Like, when we were in mainland, I went as far as Tokyo, but, like, spent most of my weekends, like, bouncing around to different districts and just going to historical sites and things of that nature. So, I made the best of every weekend. But the North Koreans were lobbing ICBMs over at Guam too, as, like, a hey, look what we can do kind of thing. So we were spearfishing. We were, like, a klick offshore and, the, man, we look up and it's like, oh, you know, all we got is, like, fins, a dive knife, and, you know, drag bag behind us. We're, like, snorkel and fins, and we're like... I'm like, dude, the alarms are going off. Like, the sirens are, like... dive! Me and my buddy were like, dive. So we just, like, took a couple of breaths, dove down, held onto some coral, waited for a flash. Nothing happens. You know, that was, that was interesting, but... yeah. But the, yeah, the, man, you know, just, just making sure I was there for my boys. If anything happened with North Korea, we were going to go in. It was going to be an incredibly high attrition rate. We were going to be pretty high up in the, in the, like, the landing force. And it was not looking good. So luckily nothing happened there. And then got back, like, got back on, like, a Saturday and, like, that Monday I'm back in the recruiter's office. I'm like, hey, here's my letter. I'm full duty. Like, I'm good to go. And, they were like, dude, you're too senior now. Like, it's been, like, a year, year and a half. Like, what are you talking about? And they're like, yeah, like, you're too senior of a sergeant now. I'm like, I was promoted... I was, like, to sergeant. I was a corporal when I went there. And they're like, yeah. I'm like, I went through with gunnies and staff sergeants. They're like, dude, rules are rules. Like, you're too senior. Like, shit. So, stuck it... stuck around with 3/6. 3/6, it sent me to a lot of really cool schools. Advanced machine gun school, Jungle Warfare Leaders Course. And, the other infantry leadership courses. And, you know, it was, so it was, it was good being with my guys on that deployment. And I was like, well, if I got to stick around, at least I know this unit. I'm not getting moved to, like, another unit or something like that. I was with them, and we were building up for what would have been my fifth deployment. And, my old platoon commander from the Oki deployment, he ended up being the officer in charge of the monitors, which are the guys that place dudes. Okay. And so we're coming off ship, I mean, we were stabilized, like, we were, we were pushing out for an expeditionary unit off the, off the East Coast. And, you know, he gave me a call and was like, hey, I'm, like, in charge of the monitors. And, like, I know you wanted it. And, like, slots opened up and, like, I can get you back over to MARSOC. I'm like, I don't want to leave my boys. Some stuff that happened in the platoon, I was like... and they were going to shake it up. And I was like... so I went to my Sergeant Major. And he was, he was an old MARSOC guy. And, I was like, hey, Sergeant Major, like, this is, this is the phone call I just got. And he's like, dude, I'm just going to figure out a way to get you over there as soon as we got back. Like, are you... like, if you're going to shake up the platoon, like, and you can just, like, take me and leave the platoon intact, like, just let me go, you know? And, so they did that, and, so I got to go back over to MARSOC. Got back into ITC, the training course, got past survival school, doing all this stuff. And I'm probably about, like, nine years at this point. I'd never done a B billet. I'd never done, like, drill instructor, School of Infantry or recruiter or anything like that. So my body, I didn't know how much my body was beat up at this point. I was doing really well in course. I was, you know, like, in the, in the higher tier of the guys, whether it was, like, PT testing and stuff like that. It was incredible to see how much the schoolhouse had changed just in that short amount of time. Yeah, from 2012 to 2015. It was incredible. I mean, it was, attrition was no longer the mission. It was, it was incredibly professional. Standards were, were wild, in a good way. What was, what was interesting was the new guys that I was in course with, it was a lot of very young guys. Now, to get into MARSOC, like, you have to, you have to be, like, like, E3, E4 or something like that, and you have to have, like, a combat deployment. Obviously things changed, or I would've been able to go back as soon as I got back from the Okinawa deployment. But the guys that I was there with now were very young, very immature. You know, I was there with gunnies and staff sergeants and, you know, war dogs, and these, these, these young bucks were... they really thought they had already made it. Like, I'm good. I'm like, dude, [...] your shoulder on one run. Yeah. Like, see how that goes. Yeah. Like, yeah, made it, man. You know, so I was doing good, until I wasn't. And, my injury started to catch up with me. I got Bell's palsy for a little while. And, but I was like, I am not... I will not quit. Like, I will not, I will not allow myself to be the reason that, that I get dropped from this program. This is my dream. All my boys that I went through assessment and selection and ITC with back in 2011, 2012 are now, you know, seasoned, couple deployments. It's who I hang out with on the weekends. It's my boys. That's who I moved to North Carolina with, you know what I mean? So, I mean, to the point to where the instructor staff at the schoolhouse, when I get back in 2015, like, a lot of them are my peers, you know. And, so anyway, yeah, keep, keep going through school and all that stuff. And then we get down to an amphibious phase down in Key West, and, man, my, my body was just, it was done. We, we had our ocean appreciation week, and, I think it was the bouncing of the boats, on the top of the heads or something like that. But I was not doing good. But I wasn't going to quit. I remember laying in the bed in the hotel room, and we had to be, we had to be out on the, on the line with fins on and, you know, combat fin stuff or something stupid. And four in the morning, right? It's up for 4:30, on line, whatever it is. And I was like, dude, I'm not doing good. I was like, we're not quitting. And, so I got down to the shoreline, did our inspection and all that stuff, and get in the water and start going. And, first my left arm went numb, and, so I was like, whatever, just drape it over the pack and keep kicking. And then my left leg went numb, and I'm like, that's not good. And, so I kept kicking. And, so I end up getting pulled out of the water. One of the... I mean, I had fallen way behind. Dude, it's dark, in a bay down in Key West. And... One of the instructors came by on, like, a jet ski or kayak and was like, who is that? I was like, Wooten. They were like, dude, what's going on? I'm like, I don't know. I, I can't, I can't use my leg. He's like, dude. So they get the, they get the boat over and they pull me up, and I'm, like, a retarded mermaid. I'm, like, kicking with one leg, like, in the boat. Like, what do we do with all this stuff? It's all these junior sailors. I'm like, just cut it off, man. I don't know. They thought I had a stroke, but come to find out, C5-C6 have a sufficient amount of damage, L4, L5, S1 are real jacked up, left shoulder surgery recovery had recovered-ish, but wasn't doing so great. And so anyway, I did not have a stroke, but it was my first time starting to identify what was going on with me structurally. I also had a couple days in the pool, you know, the, the MARSOC training pools. It's like 15 feet deep or something like that. It's like a, it's a dive pool. So it doesn't have, like, that slope. There's like a deep end and then there's a shallow end, just straight down. Yeah, yeah. And they'd have us doing this stuff for, like, you know, basically, like, dive school prep stuff and, you know, so jump in, go to the bottom, do a backflip, cross, crossover, do a front flip, and then you can surface, kind of stuff, or, like, underwater crossovers. And so it's just, you know, it's just getting you accustomed to not having a whole lot of air and, drown-proofing kind of stuff, but more like games. And, I had a day, man, where I thought I was just sick or something, but I was, like, not doing great. And, real dizzy, real disoriented. And, went in the bathroom and was throwing up. So, like I said, I chalked it up to being sick, but, my TBI wasn't doing well at that point either. It was just years of, years of running hard and not taking care of myself were catching up with me. And, you know, luckily, I ended up in one of the best places you could be. The providers that are there, phenomenal. I mean, they've got the PERRES system, these, you know, they've got physios that are there that are, like, professional, like, sports team physios. And I had this, this gal Rita. Dude, I mean, she'd be like, this is jacked up, like, it's this and this. Like, she would write out, like, what it was going to be. And then I would go get an MRI and, like, her write-up without imagery would be more detailed than what the fucking, you know, the radiologist was.

(2:07:36) Justin McMillen: That area, the country's known for that.

(2:07:40) Chad Wooten: Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. So, like I said, I got, I got hurt at, like, one of the best places, if you're going to do it.

(2:07:46) Justin McMillen: You know, it's the silver lining. Yeah. If you're gonna fuck yourself up, do it. And they're really good, you know, research hospital or whatever.

(2:07:51) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I mean, I'm fortunate, you know. So they, they ended up putting me on the med board. And I got medically retired. I was, I was that...

(2:07:59) Justin McMillen: Like, did you know that was going to happen right away? Were you ready to be done?

(2:08:05) Chad Wooten: I was not ready to be done. And I did not know that that was what was going to happen. When they said med board, they were like, no... well, yeah. It was like, well, what does that mean? They're like, well, you go through the process and, like, if they find you fit, like, you're good, you stay in. And I'm like, okay, but I'm probably not going to get to do this. Like, I'm not physically capable of keeping up with the, with the young bucks now. And how bad's my back? You know, I mean, I can remember I was living on the beach at the time, and, and it's Topsail, but the North Carolinians call it "Topsul." You know, and, you know, I, I went for a beach run and, like, lost feeling in my left leg for, like, days, you know. I'm like, that's not good. So went in. It was one of the few times I've ever been disappointed with Navy medicine. Went in on a Friday and, you know, have my images, and I see this orthopedist and she's, like, a colonel or something, and I'm like... she just, like, walks in. I don't, I don't remember exactly how, but just kind of real flippant. Just like, it's clearly Friday for her. And she's like, so what do you like to do? I was like, run. Well, you'll never do that again. I'm like, okay. She's like, yeah, you probably need surgery, have a good Friday. I'm just like, for real, dude, you know?

(2:09:25) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Some bedside manner right there.

(2:09:28) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, TBI starts catching up with me too. I got over to the Intrepid Spirit Center. They started diagnosing my traumatic brain injury, and, knew it was bad. Didn't know how bad it was. I was still fit. I was still surfing. I was still doing yoga. I was going through vestibular therapy at this point. Knew it wasn't good, was having some symptoms. But it wasn't really until after I got out that my receipt of damages done, probably about three years later, really started catching up with me. So that was... it's one of those things on the med board. Like, the more things that are wrong with you, the better your chances of getting retirement. And then, you know, and then your VA rating, it's like, you know, okay, well, so you never used to go to medical, or now you got to start going. And so, like, I can remember the medical staff at the, at the clinic being like, all right, pretty much, like, you need to be here, like, every Monday or something, and doing some type of annotation for an ailment that you haven't been treating for all these years. By the time I left, my med record was not just one folder, it was two folders, and it was about that thick.

(2:10:42) Justin McMillen: Yeah, see, there's such a big problem with that, though, in terms of what it does to someone's psychology. Yeah, I get it. I mean, because you want to be rated so that, you know, I mean, and make the transition work. But, like, now I'm going to prove how fucked up I am.

(2:10:54) Chad Wooten: Well. And if, if you, if you reported it before, you could miss out on a deployment. That's how your boys have to leave without you, or you don't get to finish school, right? You know, I mean, I would have pushed through my shoulder injury if I could have, but they were like, dude, you can't go into SERE school with that tear right now. Like, there's going to be things that happen there that, like, you can't do that. So, you know, like I said, silver lining.

(2:11:22) Justin McMillen: How long ago is that, that you...

(2:11:25) Chad Wooten: I got out in 2017.

(2:11:28) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah. It's, it's been a minute.

(2:11:31) Chad Wooten: So.

(2:11:32) Justin McMillen: Okay. Keep going. Sorry.

(2:11:33) Chad Wooten: No, you're good. Yeah. So it's, it's one of those things, man. It wasn't my plan. It wasn't my timing. I also didn't know, I didn't know how my mental health was at the time either. I started going to counseling at that point. I can remember, I had this, I had this counselor, man, and he was great. And, he was like... I need you to go home and cry. I'm like, okay. He's like, do you have a pillow? I'm like, yeah. He's like, you have a pillowcase? I'm like, yeah. He's like, you need to go home and cry. Like, why? So what happens... you're on a patrol and you're in your trucks. What happens if you hit an IED? I'm like, well, the SOP. You know, establish base of fire, you know, take care of the threat and create the cordon. You know, start triaging the injured, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Is it flawless?

(2:12:43) Justin McMillen: I don't even know it, but that sounded flawless.

(2:12:46) Chad Wooten: What do you do after that? I was like, what do you mean? Like, what do you do? He's like, medevac, you got the truck rigged for tow. Like, what do you do? Continue the patrol. He goes, yeah, you've been continuing the patrol for ten years, dude. You've never taken care of this. You've never, you've never triaged the things that have been stacking in your mental health. I need you to go home and cry. So I'm like, I do as I'm told. I go home, I'm like, come on, cry. You know, I couldn't. Like, you know, just... One of the days I was driving into the, the Intrepid Spirit Center for, for TBI, like, I'm just driving and all of a sudden, I just, just broke down, man. Like, bad. Like, just borderline panic attack, shaking, crying, like... and then, like... and here's me being like, problem, find solution, move forward. You know, like, identify the threat. Like, eliminate the threat, whatever it is. I'm like, you cry like a pussy, you know. I'm like, judging how I'm crying. And I'm like, I can't control this crying. So I'm mad that I can't control the crying. And then I'm, like, judging how I'm crying. It's like, dude, this is an emotional response. How about you just let it go, bud? You know?

(2:14:06) Justin McMillen: And being good at this means letting go, right? You want to be the best at it?

(2:14:10) Chad Wooten: Oh, buddy. Still learning that one.

(2:14:13) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Years later.

(2:14:15) Chad Wooten: Still working on that. And, so, but yeah, I didn't realize, you know. I mean, like I said, it's years of just pushing through and years of bodily damage that I wasn't aware of. And come to find out, driving around in Humvees for ten years in open desert. And, you know, we're starting to learn newer things about traumatic brain injury. And, you know, those, those micro TBIs. That's like my, my TBI doc that's helped me the most, Doctor Gordon. He was like, yeah, I treat, like, wakeboarders and, and water skiers and jet skiers. It's like constantly doing this, micro tears all over. Yeah, yeah. And I went in from football, hockey, rugby, fistfights, you know, a couple other things. Skateboarding accident. And then, you know, as I'm getting rated, they're like, well, the only time you've ever been seen for TBI was when you ate it off a longboard up in Yucca Valley, California. And I'm like, yeah, I don't go to medical. But, like, there's all kinds of stuff that happened while I've been in service. Like, what about those? Like, well, you never went to medical, so now you got to start backdating all of those records so that there is evidence, so that as you go through the med board process, they'll actually say, yeah, hey, this is combat related. This isn't combat related, you know. And they, and they decide what is and what isn't. And I'm going through it, I'm like, look, you know, I got all of these things and here's, here's my records for those. But, like, I'm pretty sure I have adrenal fatigue. Like, I have this, you know, I'm pretty sure, like, something's wrong with, like, toxic exposure. Like, I've lost a lymph node, like, I got medevac'd for it, you know, and then they had to remove it. And, like, you know, I've got kids dying of cancers and, like, I don't... like, I have, like, my, my ceiling fell in in Okinawa in 2010 from black mold around the AC duct. Like, it literally, like, you know, the two by two tiles, like four or five of those, like, fell in, and the dust bunnies that were around the AC duct, like, were built up a couple feet high. They were covered in black mold. The Japanese guy that was there to do the work to fix it, like, walked in and, like, had eyes like this, and then comes back in, like, an E.T. suit. Dude, we're, we're taking, like, these black mold dust bunnies and just swiping them off our bed and drinking a Shiner Bock hanging out the back, like, yo, what's up, dude? There's a problem. Like, you know, like. And so, I mean, now we're learning about microplastics. Well, guess what? All of our water sat out in the sun, in plastic, in the heat. Yeah. I'm like, dude, we've got, you know, all these different things. So I, I had an inclination that there were issues, and that receipt of damages done... You get it back from the VA, you're like, oh, I got 100%. That's awesome. That's stability. That's for the rest of my life. But then, like you were talking about, the psychological side, then it starts to set in, because you haven't actually accepted that there was truly an issue other than the physical things that, like, prevent you from doing something. Like my back going out and being so bad that, like, I would lose feeling in my legs, I'd have to crawl to the bathroom. That's not good. That one's like, got it, there's a problem, right? Yeah. Like, oh no, I pissed myself again. That's not good. That's a problem. You know? But you just keep pushing through because that's what we're taught to do. And so then you get out, and you got this receipt of damages done, and you're like, that's not going to affect me. It's just, it's just a stipend that gets to create stability for me. And, you know, so then I go to work at the nonprofit that I work for in the upstate of South Carolina. And, it was, yeah, it was one of those things, learning that the VA system, and seeing it and how others are affected by it, was a trip for me. Because not only did I get hurt in a place where there was these wonderful care providers, but I had a nurse that called, called my Iraq and Afghanistan case coordinator. So the day that I got done with my terminal leave, like two days later, I'm sitting in her office at the VA in Greenville, and she said to me, now, she's like, hey, your case manager called me. This is what I'm tracking. Like, hey, I got all your records here. We need to start getting into this. We need to start doing this. We need to start doing that.

(2:18:36) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(2:18:38) Chad Wooten: I'm like, this is amazing. Dude, that's not how everybody gets out, man. Right? Dudes are getting out and it's like, all right, see ya, like, here, go see the VA. I didn't know that. You know, when I sat down with the VA secretary, that's what I told them. I was like, hey man, everybody needs a Stacey Reeves. That's who my, that's who my Iraq and Afghanistan case coordinator was, man. And so, you know, you've got SOCOM Care Coalition that's also helped me out, Semper Fi Fund, you know, the nurse care team that they've got. So I was stacked. I had all, if I needed something, I knew how to make a phone call. And then I went to work at the nonprofit, and I started learning the local, regional and national level resources. So I started learning how to help others get to the resources.

(2:19:24) Justin McMillen: Is there, is there an issue with there being enough resources, or is it just awareness and access?

(2:19:42) Chad Wooten: Yes and no. There was an abundance of nonprofits that were stood up coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan. The funding was there. The NGOs were able to get the, get the funding. The palate was there with donors. They were able to get the resources so that they could get, you know, say this nonprofit's focus is on this one specific thing. But then there's, like, our, our nonprofit that I worked for, we helped out with employment, education, housing, spousal support, outdoor recreation. We really tried to be, like, a one stop shop so you could come to us. Even if we didn't have it organically, we could get you to the resource locally, nationally.

(2:20:17) Justin McMillen: Very nice. So it's a pivot point, right? We may not have it in-house, but we know how to quarterback you to the right resource. Like a central hub with spokes out to every resource necessary.

(2:20:27) Chad Wooten: Yeah. And it's really incredible, man. My nonprofit was called Upstate Warrior Solution.

(2:20:33) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(2:20:34) Chad Wooten: Yeah. And, so the guy... so you remember how I was talking about, like, the guys that were getting out after the Iraq and Afghanistan deployments, that voluntary early release program because the administration changed? A lot of those guys... the rules of engagement sucked and a bunch of people wanted out. Yeah. And they were offered an opportunity to leave early, and, but they were basically discarded. Well, what happened is a lot of those guys got into the communities. And so the Marine Corps retroactively had to create a program called the District Injured Support Coordinators. They may have had them before, so I could be wrong on, like, their origin time and stuff, but they really got mobilized for these, these guys and gals that had, you know, been through combat zones or were of that Iraq and Afghanistan time frame. And they were regionalized and they were traveling with a Navy Marine Corps Relief Society nurse. And so they were going, like, to the door of the veteran that was hurting, and they were like, oh, hey, you're not using the VA properly, or you're not using the VA, or, hey, we need to get you to outside resources. And between the Marine Corps DISC and the, and the nurse, dude, gangsters. They were, they were saving lives.

(2:21:39) Justin McMillen: State what?

(2:21:41) Chad Wooten: Upstate Warrior Solution.

(2:21:42) Justin McMillen: Okay, we'll put this in the show notes too.

(2:21:49) Chad Wooten: So, yeah. And what's really cool is Charlie Hall, you know, he, he started it. The, the board chair, Marston, he was the second commanding general of MARSOC. And so, they basically, when Charlie was wrapping up doing this, he was, he was like, there needs to be a solution. That's, that's local. There's, you know, so we covered five counties. And so, but it was one of those things that, now, not all in North Carolina, it's South Carolina, in the upstate of South Carolina.

(2:22:24) Justin McMillen: Okay. And, so what's really cool is... do you guys work with people outside of there? Sorry for the other questions.

(2:22:30) Chad Wooten: How so?

(2:22:34) Justin McMillen: Meaning, like, if the person is not in South Carolina...

(2:22:39) Chad Wooten: They're not. You got to be in those five counties, I swear.

(2:22:43) Justin McMillen: That's smart though, to keep it local.

(2:22:51) Chad Wooten: Yeah, yeah. And they do a lot of stuff that has a larger ripple and impact. But that's at, like, the higher level, like the higher ups in the organization level.

(2:22:57) Justin McMillen: Right? Right. Like, they're, they're helping and they're liaising and working with legislation stuff and...

(2:23:06) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Big time. And so anyway, working, working with them helped me. Oh, what they've done now with Upstate Warrior Solution is they actually got this, this older, it was like an old bank or something like that. And they, they turned it into, like, the veteran hub for the upstate. So, like, it wasn't just like our office was there and we would come to you. It's like, now you go there, man, and they've got an incubator for small businesses, for veterans. They've got a kitchen, like, they've got a gym in it. Like, dude, the place is awesome.

(2:23:32) Justin McMillen: Where's that at? What town?

(2:23:36) Chad Wooten: It's in Greenville, South Carolina.

(2:23:38) Justin McMillen: Greenville. Okay.

(2:23:40) Chad Wooten: Yeah. And that was like, that was like Charlie's dream for years. And he, he was able to make that happen, man. And it's, it's truly how local communities should be, how they should be taking care of veterans. The onus is on them. Hey, let's amass the county veterans service officers and bring whatever resources we can from the local government before we start petitioning the state government and then the federal government.

(2:24:00) Justin McMillen: You know, it's better for, for your donors and people that are supporting, because if they, if you can see the impact of what you're doing and it's local versus these grand schemes, you know, it's like, I don't know, I'm giving money to these people, I don't know what the hell they do. Right? But you have something like that. You can get people together. You have been affected. You can put them in the same place and they'll be like, this equals that. And that's really powerful and smart.

(2:24:30) Chad Wooten: Absolutely.

(2:24:31) Justin McMillen: It's very smart. So you're working with them, volunteering with them for some period?

(2:24:34) Chad Wooten: Yeah, I was, I was there helping. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So Stacey got me over to them. I started as a fellow with them. Then I was, I was outreach coordinator for a while. I did everything from, like, going into the jails. I was on the Homeless Care Coalition. Met with politicians. I would go out and do speaking engagements, you know, be there for the news or whatever. Like, go out and do, like, veteran employment fairs and stuff like that, set up a booth, or I would go look for veterans in their local place of, you know, hiding or hanging out, you know, everything from the VA to the, to the local bars or whatever it is.

(2:25:08) Justin McMillen: You mentioned yoga. And I think we talked earlier that yoga has always been a really big part of your... well, not always, but it's been a big part of your life. What is it that veterans need to know about the power of yoga in terms of healing PTSD, or anything that you may have learned from it?

(2:25:28) Chad Wooten: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I started doing yoga when I was at the, when I was at the MARSOC schoolhouse, because what we were going through physically was so demanding. I would go to, like, the, you know, the flow yoga and just kind of, like, the stretching kind of stuff. And it was, it was one, it was really good for my, my body, but I also found it really beneficial for my headspace and, get me ready for the week so that I can roll into the school. I was like, okay, we're going to, we're going to, you know, do a 12 kilometer ruck on this day. Then we're going to spend the next day, then we're going to, you know, whatever. It's like, the whole week's grueling. So being able to go and stretch, but then also, yeah, like, the... being, starting to be in tune with self, other than just, like, mind-muscle connection for, like, lifting, working out, running, things of that nature. I found really beneficial. So I loved it. I like the hippie dippy stuff. I don't know, I'm a Texas hippie, man. I love guns, I love my country. But I, you know, I like...

(2:26:38) Justin McMillen: The long hair that you shaved off, too.

(2:26:40) Chad Wooten: Yeah, bro. Yeah. So it was, it's something that I've continued to do. They did it at the, at the TBI clinic before I got out. They also did some mindfulness stuff that was, like, the first time I got brought into, like, mindfulness. But all that stuff, especially when you have nerve damage or complex traumatic brain injury, having the mind talk to a different part of the body and really just focusing on that for that little bit of time, you're, you're giving that effort and you're teaching those neural pathways to communicate, and you're keeping limber and you're keeping the fluid moving in your joints and keeping the muscles moving. So even when I'm not physically strong, you know, I can still go and do something that might limber me up and alleviate some of my pain level. So I'm somebody... I'm fortunate, with all the surgeries that I've had, I am not... I don't like pills. Like, I don't like pain pills much. And I like booze way more. That was, that was always my thing. Not in a... it wasn't always in a healthy way with that. But, you know, like, it was like the not, like, in, not like in pain pills. I would do whatever I could to stay moving. And, yoga was an integral part of that. Since we've been here, you know, you asked the group, like, what's your favorite modalities? And, dude, like, yoga is mine, because I've got both my shoulders are now... well, this one's ripped, this one's torn all to hell. My wrist is jacked up. You know, my right knee's jacked up, left ankle's messed up, my hips are tight. And I've had three spine surgeries, so I had a, had a C5-C6 disc replacement three months before I got here, you know. So, like, I'm, you know, like, dude, I'm... I'm pretty beat up, man. You know? So it's like, it's like doing that kind of stuff is self-care. But it's also social. It is the meditative side. I mean, even just the, being quiet and the sound therapy, I'm cool with that, too. Like, I like it. You know, I think you had asked the question where it was like, what...

(2:28:43) Justin McMillen: You're the first dude... there's, like, you know, stuff affiliated that, like, you like yoga, like, nobody ever says, like...

(2:28:51) Chad Wooten: You know, it's like, it's like, I think you asked why the other guys don't. I'm like, because if they can't fuck it or kill it, dudes aren't really typically interested in that.

(2:29:02) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah.

(2:29:04) Chad Wooten: You know, and, I don't know, man. I think that if you're going to be, you know, whether you're a warfighter or whether you're getting out or whatever, like, if you can't find different pathways to feeling better, like, you're going to be stuck on pills. You're going to be... the VA will throw all the pills you want. Well, maybe not all you want, but, like, they're going to throw pills at you. Like, that's inevitable. Like, it's going to happen. I think I got out and I was on, like, three meds from the Navy or something like that. And then by the time I was probably out for, like, six months, I was on, like, 16 meds. Like, bro, I was relatively healthy. I mean, I was jacked up, but, like, I was relatively healthy. Crazy. I don't blame necessarily the VA for that. I had a lot of stuff going on. And what I noticed about the VA is, whereas, it depends, I mean, physicians are different everywhere, but the VA, if they give you something, say for mental health, and it's like, all right, well, you've been depressed, so we're trying to, like, stabilize you. And then that med takes you too high. Then instead of being like, hey, let's pull you off of that or back you down on it, they're going to be like, let me give you another one, and then it's going to take you low. And then they're going to be like, oh, too much. And then they're going to give you another one. And then you're just on a roller coaster of emotion and, and meds. And, you know, I mean, the science on psychiatric medications, like, bro, the least you can be on the better, in my opinion, because it's, it's like, there's serious, serious repercussions for trying to mess with brain chemistry that much, when you could go out and do something like a yoga or stay physically fit and working out and getting the GABA going without having to be on gabapentin and Lyrica, which I've been on Lyrica for ten and a half years, you know. I'm finally coming off of that. But, like, dude, you know, I mean, I've got, I've got complex nerve damage all through my body. Like, I still can't feel my left toes all the time, but I don't piss myself anymore. So, you know, I got that going for me.

(2:31:06) Justin McMillen: So I think I heard my, my six year old daughter say that the other day.

(2:31:10) Chad Wooten: Yeah.

(2:31:13) Justin McMillen: It's good, right?

(2:31:15) Chad Wooten: No, it's good.

(2:31:17) Justin McMillen: It's beautiful. You got, you got to count your wins, man.

(2:31:21) Chad Wooten: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

(2:31:23) Justin McMillen: So. Well, so you're into that. Why not become a yoga instructor? You could go work at all the VAs and shit. You could get way into this. Yeah, that's not your...

(2:31:34) Chad Wooten: Well, I know, man. My job right now, I still get to have an impact on active duty guys and their, their mental and physical wellness, and getting people in the outdoors, and that's very fulfilling for me. The nonprofit world kind of burned me out. It was, you know, between the politicians and the people, man, it was just, it was a lot. And at the time, I also wasn't taking care of myself. I was trying to triage the community like it was my platoon. And, one, I learned some stuff. Every, every culture and community is going to have goods and bads. And what I learned is that typically the guy that kicks and screams the most deserves the least, and the guy that says the least deserves the most.

(2:32:21) Justin McMillen: Unfortunately, yeah. That's... and the squeaky wheel gets the grease. So yeah, the asshole that's, like, complaining and bitching is going to get all the attention. And then the man who's suffering in silence, because it's maybe a more honorable thing to do...

(2:32:32) Chad Wooten: Yeah. It's the one that gets left behind, gets...

(2:32:38) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Well, I'm really excited for... so we're going to, we're going to do another one of these. This is part... a cool, visual arc to talk about. So I want to get into the veterans service space in general and talk about the different pain points that exist for veterans right now. I'd like to get into, you're getting ready to go do something, and we won't mention it exactly on here right now. We'll leave that open. But I'd love to talk to you about it afterwards, just to hear about the experience and the effects. Cool. So the goal is for you to be a voice and to really help figure out how to make a difference in the veterans space in general.

(2:33:17) Chad Wooten: So.

(2:33:18) Justin McMillen: Yes?

(2:33:19) Chad Wooten: I'm good. Absolutely.

(2:33:19) Justin McMillen: All right. Chad.