Transcript

(00:00:00) Justin McMillen: [...] And I've been wanting to do this for a while. You are a hunter, both on and off land.

(00:00:09) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah.

(00:00:10) Justin McMillen: So you shoot massive fish?

(00:00:12) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yes. Yeah, I've shot a lot of fish.

(00:00:16) Justin McMillen: And you also, you also hunt. And I think when we were talking, you'd just come back from...

(00:00:25) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. So I bow hunt elk every year, unsuccessfully. I haven't got one yet. Felt a little better because the average time... I looked it up. How long does it take typically for a new hunter to take a bull elk with a bow? And it's 7 to 15 years.

(00:00:42) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:00:42) Stephen Kuzmanic: So it's like a long learning process. You know, some guys get it in the first few years. But that's why I like it. Because it's a challenge I have to overcome, and it takes years to figure it out.

(00:00:59) Justin McMillen: Sure. [...] Where'd you go?

(00:01:02) Stephen Kuzmanic: I go every year. [...] Yeah, I'm there every year and go three weeks.

(00:01:09) Justin McMillen: Well, this is a long, long, long walk.

(00:01:13) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah. We probably covered 140 miles this year over 12 days. And we were in the woods with all our gear, filtering water, bringing all your food.

(00:01:25) Justin McMillen: Did you see anything?

(00:01:27) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah. We had four up this year. I had two, and then [my buddy] had two. Unfortunately, the last 40 yards, a bull would come in in my shooting lane, and the wind just decided to switch. So once they smell you, they're gone.

(00:01:46) Justin McMillen: They're gone.

(00:01:47) Stephen Kuzmanic: And that happened twice. A couple other opportunities, but...

(00:01:53) Justin McMillen: So bow over rifle is a challenge.

(00:01:56) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. I don't know, hunting with a rifle, it's just... to me, [...] like a traditional bow. Sure. We use a compound bow. But that's exciting for me. Things that are hard to learn. Like, take a long time to figure out.

(00:02:15) Justin McMillen: You think once you get your first, the year after that...

(00:02:19) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, no. Not necessarily. I'll give you an example. Our buddy, his name's Mark. Neighbor Mark. He's killed, I think, 15 or 16 bulls in his life. And he's been hunting every year, like, since... so it's a tough thing to accomplish.

(00:02:38) Justin McMillen: Why is it so hard to get close?

(00:02:41) Stephen Kuzmanic: To get close? Yeah. It's more about monitoring the wind, monitoring the wind, and just getting close. You want to be 40 yards or less. That's what you want.

(00:02:54) Justin McMillen: Sure. 40 yards from a giant bull.

(00:02:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: Their life is trying to run from predators. So they're constantly keyed up. When you see them, they're just postured, looking around, and when you get close, smelling, and they're just like... I mean, you just peek around a tree, just barely peek around, and they see you.

(00:03:17) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:03:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:03:18) Justin McMillen: It's very different than hunting fish.

(00:03:21) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah.

(00:03:24) Justin McMillen: So can you give an overview to understand spearfishing, like, the different facets of what you do?

(00:03:32) Stephen Kuzmanic: And so, I'll start with how I got into it, I guess. So I went to a maritime academy. It's a school. There's five of them in the US. Anyways, it's a small village. And I became friends with these spearfishermen. They were on the [...] team. Ryan Moore, Brandon Walters, two of the best divers in the world. And so I became friends with them. And this was in college, 2000... shoot, I was in college 2005 to 2010. It's been 20 years.

(00:04:08) Justin McMillen: Yes.

(00:04:08) Stephen Kuzmanic: So I'm there, and they spearfish. And so I said, hey, I want to do that. Sounds awesome. So I had the best guys in the world to start my spearfishing career.

(00:04:22) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:04:22) Stephen Kuzmanic: So they're basically like, here's our gear. Throw it on. Come with us. And so we started getting into it, and I just wanted to get into it, you know what I mean? It was very difficult. So, yeah, we started diving together. We were up in the Bay Area. So we were, like, you know, up in... I can't remember the names, but the North Coast. So really sharky. Really cold. We started off with, like, abalone. Really easy kind of going, you know, abalone. And then shooting fish. I was there with all the guys. We started with a gun, because those guys... [...] on the spear, to try to get, like, whatever it is, it's even tougher. Even closer.

(00:05:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:05:21) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. We just started getting into it, and one day I'm like, I want to get good at spearfishing. So I went to the shop, bought all my stuff, and started going out there alone, because that's... well, no, that's when I came back down. When I graduated, came home, started work, and I'm like, I'm going to spearfish. So [...] my gear, and I just started diving. I've been [...] San Francisco.

(00:05:50) Justin McMillen: That is, like you said, sharky.

(00:05:52) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah. And the first time... you know, I've never had a fear of sharks. Now, there are times, 'cause I dove most of the time alone. So I'd get out there and you kind of start getting this feeling like something just doesn't feel right. Like you're playing the Jaws soundtrack in your head. Like, literally, like, I'm swimming out... ...and I'm like, "Oh, I'll feel better once I get to the kelp, 'cause I'll have a little protection." And I'm like, I don't like this. And I get out. I mean, that's happened just, I mean, maybe four or five times where I actually felt like a presence, I guess. I didn't see them, but I felt a presence. So I'm like, I gotta get out.

(00:06:36) Justin McMillen: Yeah, that's like your instinct. You know what I mean? I don't question that. Right? Like, if you got a weird gut feeling, I think that's important.

(00:06:45) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. It's so rare that I get that feeling, so I'm going to trust it. I'm like, I better get out.

(00:06:51) Justin McMillen: Did you have any encounters up there?

(00:06:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: None up there. No, no, no. Well, there... ...that I saw. I'm sure they were there.

(00:06:59) Justin McMillen: Oh, they were there.

(00:07:01) Stephen Kuzmanic: I've seen one. I've seen one in my, you know, 20 years of diving. I've seen one great white, but I've seen multiple other sharks.

(00:07:11) Justin McMillen: Where was that?

(00:07:12) Stephen Kuzmanic: That was in Catalina, again by myself. And, you know, I was diving and I kind of looked off into the distance, and it was really clear water. And I saw this shadow, and I actually started diving towards it, 'cause I thought it was a big white seabass. But it was so clear. Sometimes your perspective is a little bit off. Like, a big fish far away, it seems closer than it is. So I see this big, you know, shadow, and I'm like, "Oh, seabass. Cool." And I take a dive. You know, I'm at 40, 50, 60 feet now. I'm kind of planing off closer, and I'm still far. I'm maybe, you know, 80, 100 yards away. And I just see this figure far away, and I'm like, "Pretty sure that's a shark."

(00:08:03) Justin McMillen: Were you on a boat or what?

(00:08:05) Stephen Kuzmanic: I was diving off a boat. It's called Church Rock. And so I'm, you know, 50 yards from the rock, maybe [...] yards from the shoreline, and it drops off, so there's, like, a ledge there. So it's maybe 60 feet to the ledge, drops off to deep water, and that's where what I'm assuming was a shark was dropping down. And it just kind of dropped into the abyss. And yeah, I didn't, like, dive in on that one. So the thing with sharks is, if you see them, you're okay. You're going to be fine, because you can see them. If they're hunting you, you're never going to see them.

(00:08:53) Justin McMillen: That's true.

(00:08:53) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know, they swim, what, 35, 40, 50 miles an hour. When they're feeding, they're gonna whack you, dude. You're not going to see them if they're trying to eat you.

(00:09:02) Justin McMillen: If they're going to eat you, how are they going to hunt you?

(00:09:06) Stephen Kuzmanic: I think from the bottom. Straight up. That's how they smash their prey, from the bottom. We've watched them on, like, tuna grounds out at the island. You know, at sunset, we're going diving, and we have our sounder. And you can see the tuna, and you can see sharks swimming straight up into the tuna and smashing them.

(00:09:32) Justin McMillen: Jesus.

(00:09:32) Stephen Kuzmanic: Like, we've seen it. So, yeah, they're out there.

(00:09:35) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So I guess it's like, don't worry, because if it's going to happen, it's just going to happen.

(00:09:42) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. I mean, you can't control it. You know what's funny is, you know, they have those shark deterring devices, like they create a magnetic field or whatever they do. Well, a friend of mine runs the Catalina swim crossings. So people hire him to be the trail boat for when they're crossing the channel. And a guy got bit by a shark at night. He was wearing one of those. He said the only time it's like an issue is when people are actually wearing the...

(00:10:17) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:10:17) Stephen Kuzmanic: ...the shark deterrent devices. Sorry to that company.

(00:10:23) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Well, I think you're better off not [...] whatever those devices claim they do.

(00:10:31) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:10:31) Justin McMillen: [...]

(00:10:32) Stephen Kuzmanic: He was just, like, you know, kind of... yeah. Yeah, I think it was a smaller shark. It was only, like, a six-footer. It wasn't like [...].

(00:10:47) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Have you ever had any crazy shark encounters and stuff?

(00:10:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: No. You know, like, you see sharks and stuff, but what you do is, you're a predator, too. So, like, you've got a fish there and it's going nuts, and sharks are kind of after it or whatever. You go take your fish. You have to be a predator, too. Also, like, bull sharks in Florida, those are pretty wild. Those are probably the most aggressive. Those bull sharks. You know, I'm sure you've seen videos of them swimming straight at guys.

(00:11:28) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:11:28) Stephen Kuzmanic: [...]

(00:11:28) Justin McMillen: Yeah, totally. And then when you're out there protecting your fish, what kind of sharks then?

(00:11:37) Stephen Kuzmanic: So I don't know [...], but I was diving.

(00:11:40) Justin McMillen: Okay. So that was probably the bulls. But you're a predator, too.

(00:11:46) Stephen Kuzmanic: Sure. I mean, right. So you're fighting for it.

(00:11:50) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Leave it alone.

(00:11:52) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

(00:11:54) Justin McMillen: So you don't have to fend off...

(00:11:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: Because I see it all the time. Yeah. So, like, in Japan, we were shooting dogtooth tuna out there, and sharks were coming around. And so one guy will go down, if a shark is in the area, and just kind of swim at it sometimes. Most of the time, just swimming at it is enough. Swim at them and they'll peel off.

(00:12:25) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:12:25) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know, like, I think that was a hammerhead, or [...]. But they always just kind of stayed far enough away.

(00:12:36) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I think that's pretty... yeah, I think you said the whole thing, like... Yeah, everybody has this idea that sharks are trying to eat us. And I'm pretty sure, especially with how many there are, so many here, they're not messing with people.

(00:12:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: No. I think most of the time it's an accident. It's dirty water and you're splashing on the surface and stuff.

(00:13:01) Justin McMillen: I don't know. Like you said, they're not trying to eat us, right?

(00:13:06) Stephen Kuzmanic: I really don't, I really don't think so. Your fish, they'll take your fish. But most of the time they're not trying to come after us.

(00:13:14) Justin McMillen: I don't know, maybe that's hard for people [...].

(00:13:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. You know, I think people are already freaked out about being in the ocean in general. I forget. I'm in the water [...] every day. Yeah. It's like, for me, a second home. But I think people are afraid of being in the ocean. And then on top of that, there's predators. You know, it's like, yeah, it's just a thing.

(00:13:40) Justin McMillen: Totally, totally.

(00:13:41) Stephen Kuzmanic: But there's levels to diving, right? And being comfortable, you know. So you have your shore diving. That's what you start out.

(00:13:51) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:13:51) Stephen Kuzmanic: Shore diving, you can see the bottom, right?

(00:13:55) Justin McMillen: Oh, yes.

(00:13:55) Stephen Kuzmanic: So you feel a little safer. Now, the next level would be blue water. Blue water is where you can't see the bottom anymore. It is just the massive depth of the ocean below you. And that takes a lot of hours to get comfortable in, at least. Because now, you know, a 60-foot dive on a 60-foot reef... You're going down and you're laying on the bottom of the reef, and you're protected, you know, you can see the bottom. Well, do that same 60-foot dive with no bottom, where it's just blue water. There's a mental block there. At least there was for me.

(00:14:38) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:14:39) Stephen Kuzmanic: It took me a long time. I had, like, a whole floor in blue water where I would get to about 50, 60 feet and stop, because I didn't want to go any deeper. I wasn't comfortable. I didn't like it. So [I'd] stop at 60 feet and just...

(00:14:56) Justin McMillen: That's right.

(00:14:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: ...what am I going for? And then I took a freediving course. It was like, I think it's called... I can't remember the name of it. It's like three stars or whatever it is. You need to dive 30 meters and, yeah, a 50-meter dynamic swim.

(00:15:14) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:15:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: And so that course, we had this lady, she was, like, a yoga instructor, insane freediver. She can go up and down... her name was Maria. I mean, [...] for her to dive, just up and down, up and down. So we were diving with her for days, and eventually... it was so beautiful. So we just spent four days there doing yoga, breathing exercises, stretching diaphragms. She taught us how to breathe on the surface, which is actually way simpler than I thought. Anyway, so she brought me to 100 feet, and after that course, I was like, oh, I can actually accomplish this. And so that really made my diving a lot better.

(00:16:06) Justin McMillen: And when you go to 100 feet, how long are you down there for?

(00:16:11) Stephen Kuzmanic: So [...] any time, it's probably, you know, [...]. I was just on this... the deep dives, like, the fish that I've shot, none are longer than a minute and a half. None of them are.

(00:16:28) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:16:28) Stephen Kuzmanic: They're really shorter at times. It's just the nature of the fish. It's very rare that you're down, like, so you're hanging out at 80 feet and you're waiting for your fish to come in. They almost never do. I mean, that's rare. At least for me, you know. The fish are... you're going to dive on them and [...], and that will be your [shot], usually.

(00:16:54) Justin McMillen: Got it.

(00:16:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know what I mean? Like, yes, longer dive times are beneficial to you, for sure, because you can spend more time down there. But more often than not, it's not that long of a dive.

(00:17:13) Justin McMillen: So go back to Maria... Maria Teresa. It's crazy. [...] What is it she taught you that really changed everything?

(00:17:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: Probably two things. One was breathing. So on the surface... I know you've dove plenty of times, right?

(00:17:32) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:17:33) Stephen Kuzmanic: So there was, like... I would go through a process that I just kind of made up. Like, big breath, let it out. Big breath, let it out. I had, like, this made-up process that I thought was the right way. Turned out it wasn't. I was actually spending a lot of energy, because I was so focused on these breathing techniques that I kind of made up in my head. Like, really, really trying to get a big breath and, like, really forcing it almost, to try to stay down longer. It turns out all you have to do on the surface is breathe... ...like you're napping. Like, imagine you're laying on a couch and you're breathing to go to sleep. That's how you should be breathing on the surface. Very relaxed. Just be normal. And then you do, like, maybe a minute before your dive, do one kind of stretch, an inhale stretch, and then go back to napping. You know what I mean.

(00:18:34) Justin McMillen: Like, because, you know, naturally [people] actually act opposite in the water, right? You can see it, like, they're moving in panic mode.

(00:18:45) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:18:46) Justin McMillen: And I tell them, like, you know, you want to try to... it honestly sounds terrible to say, but it's like shallow water blackout. That feeling of just like... it's like everything is just very relaxed.

(00:19:02) Stephen Kuzmanic: It's like, you just feel so calm. You need to be calm. That's the most important thing. Like, if you could train for spearfishing, like, yoga would probably be the best for it.

(00:19:15) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:19:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: To be able to relax. Maria would also say, think from your head to your toes and do, like, an inventory all the way down through your whole body, and relax every single muscle in your body. That's how you should be on the surface.

(00:19:32) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:19:32) Stephen Kuzmanic: Like, you know what I mean? So, and then the same thing, too. Once you take your big three-part breath, stomach, diaphragm, kind of your throat, three-part breath is what they call it. Once you take that breath, now you invert and go to dive. Well, you have about six kicks or so until you're negatively buoyant. And that's when you literally stop kicking. Now you're sinking. And again, you need to relax every part of your... every muscle in your entire body and sink to whatever depth you're trying to achieve. And so, like, I'll even close my eyes. I'll be vertical, I'll be looking at the surface behind me, because then I know I'm actually [...]. So you're not, like... there's no drag, and you just sink.

(00:20:24) Justin McMillen: Sink.

(00:20:25) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Now, again, that's a very hard thing to do, especially in blue water, is sinking in the ocean.

(00:20:33) Justin McMillen: In that scenario, you're on a line, right? You're connected to the line?

(00:20:38) Stephen Kuzmanic: [...] It transfers over to... so, like, when I'm blue water hunting, and you're sinking, everything's relaxed and you're just... but it's very hard, you see.

(00:20:51) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Well, what about, you know, when you have a watch?

(00:20:55) Stephen Kuzmanic: So I don't wear a watch. A lot of guys do. I don't want the pressure of dive time recorded on my watch. I just go off how I feel. I rarely go to, like, contractions. I'm sure you've heard of, like, they actually train into contractions, so... And then they can... the interval, the contractions, how close they are together.

(00:21:23) Justin McMillen: Like when you [...].

(00:21:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: Understand. So if you've ever held your breath for a long time, your diaphragm will actually physically... it's like a spasm, I guess, you know, literally a contraction, 'cause you're trying to get air in your lungs. So it's an involuntary contraction of your diaphragm.

(00:21:46) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:21:46) Stephen Kuzmanic: And, you know, it's like trying to pull air into your lungs. So a lot of [guys] push into the zone. I never have one contraction.

(00:21:56) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:21:56) Stephen Kuzmanic: Like, I don't go there. Because I want to stay alive.

(00:22:00) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:22:01) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, that's very rare. So there's guys, you know, they do go into contractions, and now you're risking shallow water blackout and other things. Like, now you're asking for trouble. I don't dive in the contraction zone.

(00:22:18) Justin McMillen: What freedivers do is amazing. Like, I mean, what do they do now? Like, I don't know, I don't even know the numbers. [...] all the world records... Russian guy, his mother died. It was... [...] the show, the book.

(00:22:35) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, but I've never really [...].

(00:22:38) Justin McMillen: So... but he's doing that. He does the free, like, free version, you know, go like 300 feet.

(00:22:45) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

(00:22:47) Justin McMillen: No fins, like [...] all the time. I'm sure you've seen the show. These guys are unbelievable. And I'm sure on those dives they're in contractions.

(00:22:59) Stephen Kuzmanic: I don't know that for sure. Actually, I'm pretty sure they are.

(00:23:03) Justin McMillen: You'll see, like, especially on the way up. Maybe not on the way down, but in the last part of it, they come up fucking blue, man. And like...

(00:23:13) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yes.

(00:23:13) Justin McMillen: And then, yeah, they have to say, like, "I'm good," do certain things. And they're literally like...

(00:23:20) Stephen Kuzmanic: Right, I think you have time to do [it]. So, as you come up, you let out all the air from your lungs, it'll pull the oxygen from your brain, and you'll pass out. So what they do is they do a recovery breath, retrieve the breath. So you almost, like, pressurize your lungs, and you kind of push to get oxygen back to your brain. If you just release, you can pass out.

(00:23:52) Justin McMillen: Do you... I mean, have you been with anyone who [blacked out]?

(00:23:58) Stephen Kuzmanic: I've never seen anyone. It's awful, because you start shaking and they just start sinking. I've never seen it myself, but I've heard stories.

(00:24:12) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:24:12) Stephen Kuzmanic: [...] So you're really, really experienced. It's really safe when we're doing, like... we have, like, a one-up, one-down type of style. So one guy is available, like, for a rescue.

(00:24:28) Justin McMillen: And now, the problem is, I'm diving with, like, [...] my friend. I mean, I've been on the surface and he's on that 100 feet, and I'm like, it's been two minutes... ...three minutes. I'm like, he can do a five-minute dive at 100 feet. So I'm getting a little worried, for sure. And what am I going to do? I mean, I know he's down there somewhere, but, like, do I really know where he is?

(00:24:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: I don't know. The rescue... yeah, that's where it's like...

(00:25:01) Justin McMillen: We don't know what happened to him.

(00:25:04) Stephen Kuzmanic: Exactly.

(00:25:04) Justin McMillen: Have you heard of the mammalian dive reflex? So he told me he was on, like, minute two and a half, it was like two and a half, three minutes. He said he felt his spleen contract, which will pump O2 into your bloodstream.

(00:25:21) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:25:22) Justin McMillen: Can you tell the audience what is the dive reflex?

(00:25:26) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. So I don't know too much, but I'll try to fill in what I've heard. So we're mammals, right? Just like a dolphin. When cold water hits your face, it lowers your heart rate. Let's see, what else is there? Your spleen is holding oxygen. So your spleen will actually contract eventually to release O2 into your blood. It'll give you, like, an extra boost. What else? I forget.

(00:25:54) Justin McMillen: Yeah, it's... I know that there's... So there's a whole... I think it's really squishy science, but there's a whole conversation about aquatic ape theory, saying that we evolved in the water, and that that's actually why we can do all of this stuff.

(00:26:08) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:26:08) Justin McMillen: There's a whole thing. Basically, we're mammals, just like dolphins. And, you know, there's the other one, where your body... there's, like, a blood shift thing at, like, 100 feet. This happened to you, where, you know how you feel like there's an elephant on your chest...

(00:26:23) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah.

(00:26:24) Justin McMillen: ...and then it'll release. Supposedly, that's because blood is reversing its way through the capillaries. Have you ever felt the blood shift?

(00:26:33) Stephen Kuzmanic: I never have, no.

(00:26:34) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. But, I mean, you feel it, like... I don't know, at 100 feet. I mean, it's crazy, and you're like, you actually feel better almost, because everything is concentrated, I think, like your blood.

(00:26:48) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, you do.

(00:26:49) Justin McMillen: Yeah. I don't know. I did one over 100 feet, like, logged one on my watch, and it felt like I was being smashed. I mean, I just remember the squeeze. Just a chest feeling. It was just like, holy shit.

(00:27:02) Stephen Kuzmanic: I think everybody's different. You get used to it, you get used to it. I've never had a problem with, like, lung squeeze or any of these, like, issues. And that's just based on... I don't know, genetics or whatever you want to call it. Like, people are affected differently by the pressure, because there's a lot of pressure.

(00:27:24) Justin McMillen: How much is conditioning? Like, do you have to have a certain kind of body?

(00:27:29) Stephen Kuzmanic: I don't think so. No. I guess, like, the thing... I think the most important thing is training your mind to be relaxed. Period.

(00:27:39) Justin McMillen: Are you built like a typical spearfisherman?

(00:27:42) Stephen Kuzmanic: What's that?

(00:27:43) Justin McMillen: Are you built like a typical spearfisherman?

(00:27:46) Stephen Kuzmanic: No. But they're all shapes and sizes, dude. I've seen guys with pot bellies that are great divers. I've seen guys that are in shape that are great divers. All body types. Skinny, chunky, bulky. Like, I think everybody has the ability to do it. It's just you have to spend time in the water. You have to get comfortable. If you're not comfortable, it's never gonna work.

(00:28:14) Justin McMillen: And how do you get comfortable?

(00:28:16) Stephen Kuzmanic: You have to go out there.

(00:28:18) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah.

(00:28:19) Stephen Kuzmanic: Like, I knew that. So I went alone. I just went out there, and I'm all alone. And I pushed just a little bit every time. Push your limits. Like, okay, I want to get 50. Okay. Another 50. Okay, drop my gun, put it on the bottom. Well, now go get it. Get down there. Get it. Try to relax. You know what I mean? So, like, you train your body whatever you want.

(00:28:48) Justin McMillen: Yeah. You're trainable.

(00:28:50) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know, it takes a long time. But eventually it's like second nature. Like, I don't even think about it anymore. And my heart rate drops. It almost feels like I'm meditating. Like, I'm so relaxed, it doesn't even excite... ...like a big fish or whatever. It doesn't even excite me anymore, because I've trained that out of my mind. Whereas, like, when I first started blue water diving, and I was with Brandon Walters in Panama, we're on this, I forget it, I really want to say [...], and there's 100 yellowfin 20 feet below me. I can't even dive. I'm so excited. Too excited to dive. And the only way... I used to experience that. So over time, you learn just... yeah, you have to relax to dive. It's the only way. You can't be jacked up to dive.

(00:29:56) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:29:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: So it's time in the water. And that's why it takes so long to make those dives happen. You know what I mean?

(00:30:06) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:30:07) Stephen Kuzmanic: Like, guys go out and pay money to go see bluefin here, right? We have a big bluefin fishery right here. They pay all this money, and they'll miss ten fish. They'll miss ten shots.

(00:30:23) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:30:23) Stephen Kuzmanic: Talking to my friends, it's because they're too jacked up and they can't aim and they can't [...].

(00:30:32) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:30:32) Stephen Kuzmanic: And the more they do that, they'll be able to do it. But that's the only way. I don't care how much training you do outside of it, you just gotta do it.

(00:30:45) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So, this process... so, you know, so many people listen to this all around the country. So when you're sitting on a boat and you've got a gun, what is it in terms of the equipment? Is it just a gun in a boat, or [...]?

(00:31:05) Stephen Kuzmanic: So for big fish, we have, yeah, like a 67-inch [...], you know, a blue water gun. We use [...], obviously, the equipment, right? It's reliable. It's been around for [...]. And so it's a big giant blue water gun. For tuna, you can use a 100-foot bungee that has Spectra inside. So the bungee can actually stretch to 250 feet.

(00:31:46) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:31:46) Stephen Kuzmanic: Because the Spectra inside is 250 feet. So it's a bungee, and then you have that, at minimum, [...] float. For bluefin, I would probably run two, three [floats]. And yeah. So, you know, once you shoot, the line breaks away from your gun, and now you just throw your gun, it's banded over your arm.

(00:32:14) Justin McMillen: So the spear itself is connected to a line?

(00:32:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yes. It's actually steel cable for tuna. So it's stainless cable.

(00:32:24) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:32:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: Once you shoot, the whole system leaves. The gun isn't attached to the cable in any way.

(00:32:32) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:32:32) Stephen Kuzmanic: But... so when you go down, you're actually tied to the surface. The float, the bungee, is your shooting line on your gun.

(00:32:43) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:32:43) Stephen Kuzmanic: And so once you shoot, the shooting line leaves. The gun is not attached anymore. And so now your shaft is in the fish, hopefully. And then the bungee is running. Your shooting line, your bungee, your float on the surface. So once you make your shot, you can now swim up and get your float, and then fight the fish from the surface.

(00:33:07) Justin McMillen: So you're not... ...underwater?

(00:33:09) Stephen Kuzmanic: No, no. You're not fighting the fish underwater. No. [...] My tuna's 300... 290-pound yellowfin tuna. Well, 300 pounds, but it's, like, controversial.

(00:33:22) Justin McMillen: Yes.

(00:33:22) Stephen Kuzmanic: The way you weigh the fish... there's an actual calculation with math and a tape. So it's, like, girth squared... I don't know the exact formula, but we put it in the formula, which actually is pretty accurate. And it was 290 pounds.

(00:33:42) Justin McMillen: Okay. A yellowfin. Okay. So how big is that?

(00:33:46) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, taller than me.

(00:33:47) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:33:48) Stephen Kuzmanic: It's giant, giant.

(00:33:49) Justin McMillen: Like, when you shot it, were you like, this is going to be...

(00:33:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: It was my first tuna.

(00:33:56) Justin McMillen: What?

(00:33:56) Stephen Kuzmanic: It was my first. So it was after, like, my training with Maria Teresa. And I'd done a bunch in Panama and never shot a tuna. And I'd been to Mexico, like, a couple times, had a shot at tuna, and then finally it all lined up. Last day, my buddy Don Miller, the fish killer, he went down, he goes, "Dude, [...]." And I'm like, it's my turn to dive. So I went, I grabbed a handful of squid. I go down 30 feet, 40 feet, and I just kind of throw the squid. We use these, like, chunk... cubes of fresh [squid], kind of just throw it in the water, and I go to swim, because I want to go get the gun. Well, I look back, and that giant tuna is just slowly eating the squid in the water. I'm like, are you kidding me? It was amazing. [...] So I go up, snag the gun from my friend. He did not want to give it up. [...] I turn around and I just take a quick breath and go. And [...] right underneath me. It turns around, comes back right underneath me, and [...] right back. Shot him, spine, stoned. So when you stone a fish, they vibrate.

(00:35:24) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:35:25) Stephen Kuzmanic: They're basically dead, or they can't move. And it's just vibrating, and I'm like, are you... like, last day, going down, sunset happening, I shoot this giant fish.

(00:35:40) Justin McMillen: At that point, yeah, absolutely.

(00:35:43) Stephen Kuzmanic: That was my reward. Like, all the work I put in, like, finally, finally. And when I finally got the fish to the surface...

(00:35:55) Justin McMillen: So do you, like, slice it up immediately and eat?

(00:35:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: No, we took it back, we fileted it, and then we actually gave [...], like, a restaurant that would cook for us for free. We brought them a whole quarter of it. And then, you know, we kept [the rest] for ourselves. But actually, sushi is the best the next day.

(00:36:13) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:36:14) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. So the fish on ice, and in 24 hours, it, like, relaxes the meat. It's actually better the next day.

(00:36:24) Justin McMillen: Nice.

(00:36:25) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. So, yeah, you can do that. Like, it's [...], but a fish is still [...] for, like, 24 hours. And that's when it's [...].

(00:36:37) Justin McMillen: Oh, man. Are there people who do that for a living? Like, commercial spearfishing?

(00:36:44) Stephen Kuzmanic: Some commercial spearfishing. Yeah.

(00:36:47) Justin McMillen: From here, or on the East Coast?

(00:36:50) Stephen Kuzmanic: I don't know. People do it here. They run real commercial. Yeah. Of course, bluefin. But I [know a guy], commercial spearfishing. He goes out a bunch. So...

(00:37:03) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Cool life. Very cool. But also, like, that's tough, man. You've got to get a lot of fish.

(00:37:11) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of pressure.

(00:37:14) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Let's get, like, a giant tuna, you know, every time.

(00:37:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: I mean, this guy's like... this year, I guess you would say, you know, he just seems to, like, always...

(00:37:26) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. Right.

(00:37:28) Stephen Kuzmanic: So that is like, you know, when you're out on a boat diving all day, there's the one guy, the fish guy, he's probably in the water all day. Well, the other guys are, like, taking breaks there, you know, hanging on the boat. That guy's always in the water. So...

(00:37:49) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's diligent, you know.

(00:37:53) Stephen Kuzmanic: So prior to that fish... so it was just the tuna, the blue water fishery, and before that, before that, I did, like, the amberjack, Panama, pargo. I got, like, [...] before that. But no big tuna. I mean, that was a monster.

(00:38:14) Justin McMillen: [...] I mean, you know, is that your biggest fish, or the dogtooth?

(00:38:20) Stephen Kuzmanic: Well, so, yeah. So my friend Brandon... the story of how I kind of got myself in the situation. So, Brandon... so when I got out of the academy, I was sailing on a tanker. So I worked 90 days... or 80 days on, or 75 days on, 75 days off. So I was off half the year. And Brandon... ...same thing. He's a ship captain, and so he has time off every, like, November [...].

(00:38:52) Justin McMillen: I mean, what do you... I mean, you're on a ship? On a tanker?

(00:38:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:38:57) Justin McMillen: Nice.

(00:38:58) Stephen Kuzmanic: I was the third engineer. Okay, so I was third officer, engineer. You run an engine room, doing, like, maintenance and whatever. I was in charge of generators, lube oil, purifiers, a couple other things. But I don't work in that space anymore.

(00:39:19) Justin McMillen: Now?

(00:39:19) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. No, now I work on container cranes.

(00:39:23) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:39:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, it's still maintenance stuff.

(00:39:27) Justin McMillen: Yeah. The same... is it longshoremen? Is that the same union?

(00:39:33) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:39:33) Justin McMillen: Okay. [...]

(00:39:34) Stephen Kuzmanic: Okay. So, yeah. So, anyway. Yeah. So my buddy... so we have these careers where we have, like, most of the year off, half the year off. So I would... and then, shoot, six, seven, eight times, I get a phone call from a friend, and he'd be like, "Hey, there's fish in wherever. You want to go shoot some tuna?" "Sure. Yeah. When do you want me to show up?" "Tomorrow." So I'm like, okay, I get all my stuff together, I'm on a flight headed to Mexico. Well, one day he's like, "Hey, can you get to Japan?" I'm like, "Yeah, where do I go?" You know, I'm like, "Cool. We'll be there in two days." So I say, okay, here I come. Every time, every time he calls me, I'm going, because I know there's going to be fish there. I'm diving with one of the best divers in the world. Good friend of mine. So I fly to Japan. I've never been in Japan before, but I fly out there. We get on a 24-hour ferry to an island that has 50 people living on it.

(00:40:53) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:40:53) Stephen Kuzmanic: So, of course, [...] somewhere. But middle of nowhere. An island that's one mile around, with 50 people on it. And so we get to this island, and we have to convince these elders. They're like, "What are you going to do?" We're like, "Get in the water." "Spearfishing, shoot fish." They're like, "Nah." So they're like, "No, the currents are crazy." They're pretty wild. They're very strong. They're like, "Sharks and current." Like, "No." So it took, like... and he had a little friend, a Japanese friend that obviously spoke [Japanese]. He helped us talk to them. And eventually, after about an hour, they're like, "All right, fine." So now we have to find a boat.

(00:41:46) Justin McMillen: So we find this... I feel like I've seen some show about fishing where they went to a place to look for dogtooth.

(00:41:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:41:55) Justin McMillen: And it was rough, and probably that's where the massive ones are.

(00:41:59) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah. So now we've got to find a boat, like. And there's one. There's, like, one commercial fisherman. There's, like, I don't know, [...]-foot, just wooden boat, I think. Yeah. A four-cylinder, like, old diesel, like a little tiny engine and this giant prop.

(00:42:23) Justin McMillen: Oh, geez.

(00:42:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: So we motor on out there. My first, my first dive there, I ended up shooting a trout that was, I think it weighed 56 pounds, which is, like, 20 pounds... ...over the world record. This thing was... [...] at this place, ever. Like, no one has [...]. So it's just, like, it's very rare.

(00:42:52) Justin McMillen: Sure, sure. So you got a world record?

(00:42:56) Stephen Kuzmanic: I did, but I didn't [...]. Okay, I don't [...]. But it's kind of cool that I shot this giant fish. Giant. I mean, 56 pounds. It's, like, beautiful, with the blue rings on it. It was insane. I'm like, where are we, Jurassic Park? So, you know, we shot some small dogtooth. I'm kind of there... like, I'm there to help Brandon. I want him to shoot. He's there because he set the whole trip up, right? So I'm all on his [...]. Like, I'm helping him. I want to help him get on fish. And so finally, like, the stars align, and we get on this school of dogtooth. We know where they are. And Brandon takes a dive, and he shoots this, like, 200-pound dogtooth. Just an absolute monster. He surfaces and he's just like, "Yes! Yes!"

(00:43:52) Justin McMillen: Dogtooth... comparable to, like, how would you... like, what?

(00:43:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It's not a tuna. It's not tuna meat. It's almost like a wahoo crossed with a yellowfin. Almost. They actually have these big white teeth, and their jaws are crazy. They have, like, white teeth all around their mouths. They're, like, sharp white.

(00:44:20) Justin McMillen: Oh, yeah.

(00:44:21) Stephen Kuzmanic: Like, they literally look like dog teeth. They're gnarly. So they've got these giant mouths, and the way they act is kind of weird. Like, they sit in the current and just kind of waddle. So they're not, like, moving. They're just kind of hunting the reef fish. So they're hanging out on the reef, and it's kind of like, [...] watch them. And then there's this white dot on their tail. So they're very easy to see. So you're like, you're not gonna mess that up.

(00:44:56) Justin McMillen: They exist everywhere?

(00:44:58) Stephen Kuzmanic: Just like Bali, Indonesia, Japan. Tropical reefs.

(00:45:03) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:45:03) Stephen Kuzmanic: Tropical warm water reefs. Yeah. But, so he shoots this giant fish. I've been waiting days to have my opportunity. You know what I mean? So finally he gets his fish, and we're all stoked, and he goes, "Are you ready, dude?" And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah." So here we go.

(00:45:25) Justin McMillen: And that's hard, too. Like, you're excited, but you can't be excited.

(00:45:30) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Because you can't, because you have to make this dive. So I make a dive, and I'm passing up dogtooth, like 120 pounders, 130 pounders. I'm passing them up, 'cause I know there's another giant.

(00:45:45) Justin McMillen: Grand ones down there.

(00:45:46) Stephen Kuzmanic: And so I dive, I pass them up, and I go back up. And the photographer we're with, he's like, "What are you doing? Like, why didn't you shoot one?" I'm like, "I'm gonna [...]." You know what I mean? He's cool. So I make another dive, pass them all up. I get to about 80, 85 feet, and down below I see the monster that I want. And I'm like, here we go. So I'm planing off. And so, you never want to swim at a fish. If you swim at a fish... you know what it's called? Their lateral lines. They can feel, like, the pressure of you swimming at them, especially if you've got this big old gun. You swim at a fish... ...I promise you, they'll go away. They'll at least keep their distance. So what you do is you swim with them. Planing out at, like, 85 feet, and I start to catch up to this fish. So I'm kind of swimming with them. And then I can cut... then I cut in, and I send a perfect shot right in the pec fin... ...right out the gill plate. That's how you want to shoot dogtooth, because they're so strong that they'll break cable, like, 1,000-pound-test stainless cable. They'll bounce off the reef and break it. They're extremely strong. So, actually, these fish go off. They're funny, because they'll do, like, ten runs. And we do that with three floats on those fish, because they're so powerful and they'll break [...]. So we use... it's called, it's basically Dyneema or whatever it is. Spectra. It's, like, braided.

(00:47:32) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:47:33) Stephen Kuzmanic: It's chafe-resistant, for, like, reefs and stuff. So anyways, they'll do, like, ten runs where the third float gets pulled underwater. I mean, they're pulling three floats down, like, 30 feet, and then back up, and then they'll pull them down again. You've got about ten times. And basically what happens is, like, they explode. They have more testosterone than any fish, really. And so when they really freak out, they just do, like, ten runs, and then they basically die. You can basically just kind of [...] after that.

(00:48:17) Justin McMillen: So, yeah. Yeah, okay. Wow. That's crazy.

(00:48:20) Stephen Kuzmanic: It was [...].

(00:48:21) Justin McMillen: You can see... Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you hit the fish, and then that was it?

(00:48:29) Stephen Kuzmanic: [...] 180.

(00:48:30) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:48:30) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. We weighed those fish. [Brandon's] was 200.

(00:48:35) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:48:35) Stephen Kuzmanic: They're just monsters.

(00:48:37) Justin McMillen: It was so cool, the way you described it. So he invited you, and then there's sort of, like... you let him...

(00:48:48) Stephen Kuzmanic: Of course. Yeah. My one opportunity. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to annoy him. I'm like, he set this trip up. I mean, the logistics of it. And there's more to it, like, island to island, staying here, taking a ferry boat. And so now we've got to do this, and, like, getting all the way to this little remote island, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, he planned all that stuff. Lucky enough to be along for the ride.

(00:49:24) Justin McMillen: That's so cool. You know? So that's... you know, imagine, you're like, [...]. You're not selfish about it.

(00:49:32) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. I'm not. And honestly, I don't know... you know, I'm just there. We're in the most beautiful place in, like, the world, you know? It's just worth being there. Yeah, like, the water's so blue it's almost, like, a purple color. Like, 150-foot visibility. Just unreal reef. Just fish. I mean, just unreal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 80-degree water. Like, unbelievable.

(00:50:01) Justin McMillen: Well, [...] beautiful islands.

(00:50:04) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, I don't want anyone to [...] it.

(00:50:08) Justin McMillen: No, it's good to keep it secret. [...] your guys' spot, right?

(00:50:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. So what's cool about him is what he does. He's on a base in Japan, okay. So he's on the bridge, he's looking at it from his boat. And then he figured out how to get there. You know what I mean? So he's like, "Oh, you're from Japan? Yeah, here, come on." Okay. And then I bring, like, any extra equipment we need. I'll go buy it or whatever, and I'll put our whole thing together and just meet him out there.

(00:50:49) Justin McMillen: What is your... you said earlier that [you're] in this because it's hard.

(00:50:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. So it's funny. So my son's almost three. So I don't get to spearfish much anymore. I really don't. I think the last... it's been over a year since I've been in the water.

(00:51:08) Justin McMillen: Three?

(00:51:09) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, I know, I know. It's [been] five years [since I was] at the Tree House here.

(00:51:15) Justin McMillen: It's like... time flies.

(00:51:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: [...] Yeah. You two are amazing. So, yeah, this place [means] so much to us. It's like, I can't even thank you enough for creating it, you know?

(00:51:31) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I get, like, emotional. Hey.

(00:51:34) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Both.

(00:51:35) Justin McMillen: Yeah. No, I mean, it's hard to explain, man, but the feeling that I get when I talk to guys like you, they're doing so much. It's, you know, you get tired, and it recharges... ...my batteries. And it's a reminder. And, like, I even just remember you [with] your son. I mean, you're such an extraordinary human being, and, like, you know, [...] is just the biggest waste of human potential.

(00:52:09) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(00:52:10) Justin McMillen: And so now... this was Rafe? Rafe, right? So, as a dad...

(00:52:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. It's like, yeah. No, it's like, yeah, it's mind blowing. Yeah. And it's [because of] here, to be honest. And my wife, on this place... she's smart. She was like, "This is where you need to go."

(00:52:30) Justin McMillen: Well, what would you say... this isn't a Tree House thing... to the other wives, about their husbands?

(00:52:37) Stephen Kuzmanic: I mean, if you put your all into this place, you're going to get everything out of it. And then change... you change your life. I mean, if your husband or whoever is like me, like, likes work and, like, you know, likes being on a team, the community, this is the spot. I mean, there's no other place like it. I don't even call it a rehab. It's something very different. Yeah. It's a life-changing thing. And I've seen it myself, in myself and the handful of other people that I'm connected with, too. Like, I mean, it's just unbelievable. I don't know how else to describe it.

(00:53:26) Justin McMillen: That was amazing, how you described it. That's... yeah. What is it about, like, the way you're built? You're not a normal person.

(00:53:40) Stephen Kuzmanic: No.

(00:53:40) Justin McMillen: And where's this intersection between a person that wants to go crazy and do new things, and maybe something destructive, versus...

(00:53:50) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, I think...

(00:53:51) Justin McMillen: Any thoughts on that?

(00:53:52) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. I think, well, like... I found out, like, now, that I need a challenge of some sort. So whether that's going in the gym, like, increasing my bench or whatever, going elk hunting, or spearfishing, all these things. So what's happened with spearfishing is, that was a huge part of my life, and still is, and it's something that I've kind of, like, [gotten] what I want out of, I guess. So it's not necessarily as exciting to me. I still love it. I'm still going to go when I get the opportunity, but I need, like... like, I've done a bunch of stuff, right? So now I need, like, another thing... ...to master, which is elk hunting. Yeah. Like, it's so hard and so challenging and difficult. Like, everything about it. The hiking, the [...], spending 12 days in a tent, eating dehydrated food with my buddy. Like, in the rain, hail, in the wintertime. That excites me. You know, so it's like this new thing that I get to go do and try to master, and I don't know if I'll ever master it. And I have [...] spearfishing. It's just, now I have... I always need something to drive my brain and drive my body, and [something] difficult for me to do. Or else I... I don't know, I don't know what else.

(00:55:38) Justin McMillen: Yeah, you're getting at it. And actually, you know, a lot of the theory the Tree House model was built on was this idea that we're all built a little different, right? And then there's certain subsets of the population whose reward system [is different]. For you, it's so... totally. And since you were here, [there's been] genetics [research], things with, like, NIH and stuff, to study the genes of people like you guys, to determine what it is about us, causing us to not ever be satisfied.

(00:56:16) Stephen Kuzmanic: Right? Yeah.

(00:56:17) Justin McMillen: That's a superpower, too. Right? Especially if you learn how to [use it]. So you're going to find it in... maybe society, but in your marriage, even with your children, you know, your expectations are so high that you can put pressure on people in your life, too.

(00:56:41) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, some of them. So, totally.

(00:56:44) Justin McMillen: But it's really cool because it unlocks [...], and they don't hide from pain or chase pleasure in a way that's self-destructive. So, shoot. It's ridiculous. I've seen [you] [...] 495. That's insane.

(00:57:02) Stephen Kuzmanic: I think right now I'm... because I lost [some] pounds.

(00:57:07) Justin McMillen: Okay, okay.

(00:57:08) Stephen Kuzmanic: So it's like a reset for me, and then I build back up again for a year. So, yeah, my [...] was five plates. Deadlift, five plates.

(00:57:21) Justin McMillen: Yeah. He's crazy. Is your frame, like, you know, like, seven foot tall?

(00:57:27) Stephen Kuzmanic: No, no.

(00:57:28) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And then it's just... you think just genetically, or...

(00:57:34) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know, my dad, my dad was very strong. But my brothers are... well, yeah, my brothers are 145, 150 pounds. You know, but I still think they have the genetics to, like, put on muscle. But it takes a long time. Like, it's a process.

(00:57:52) Justin McMillen: I think [...] at the same time. Like you have... what is your training like? How do you do it? Can you sum it up?

(00:58:01) Stephen Kuzmanic: It's, like, basic. Just, like, one muscle group a day. Chest, back, arms, shoulders, legs. And it's, like, bodybuilding, kind of. So I train with [...] Castleberry. I'm sure you've heard of him. He was, like, one of the OG, like, fitness influencers.

(00:58:23) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:58:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: Instagram. He is a beast. He's my height, 240 pounds, just an animal. And I met him in my gym, which is crazy. And we started training together. We've trained with each other for, like, three years now.

(00:58:38) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:58:39) Stephen Kuzmanic: So he's, like... you'd call him my trainer. He's one of my close friends.

(00:58:44) Justin McMillen: Well, if he ever wants to come on here, I would love to [have him].

(00:58:49) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, he would love to. Yeah. You ask him, for sure. He's awesome. He's a really good dude. He has, like... [...] kind of blackballed him from the industry, I guess you could say. Like, [saying] he was lifting fake weight, and, you know, strongman, all these things, right? Whatever. But he's a really good dude, and he helps everyone around him, and he's the nicest guy in the world. And I don't know why people treat him that way.

(00:59:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Exactly. So, because a lot of people can get to a certain strength and they plateau. Like, how did you... what did he do?

(00:59:33) Stephen Kuzmanic: I mean, just really strict form and posture and flexibility, and doing a full range of motion, like that. So he'll watch you and be like, "You're tight in your hamstrings. You need to, you know, stretch," or whatever. [...] you know. So he's been doing it so long that he can just kind of look at you and tweak you, and figure out the right movements, where to build, where you're lacking, you know what I mean? So, I don't know, [the reps] are all over the map. Yeah. So maybe there's 20 reps, or there's a heavy five. It just kind of changes, you know. Heavy is five, but he's like, "Yeah, we're gonna [...] everything, and we're going to go ten reps," or whatever. So we hit all the rep [ranges].

(01:00:35) Justin McMillen: That's crazy. Yeah, there isn't, like, one formula. Because I think that's important, because your body gets used to, like, one thing, right? So if you change it to 20 reps, you'll be sore from that. Like, what the heck?

(01:00:55) Stephen Kuzmanic: [...]

(01:00:55) Justin McMillen: And so how long would you be [in the gym]?

(01:00:59) Stephen Kuzmanic: We're usually about an hour and a half.

(01:01:03) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:01:04) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Five days a week. It's harder now with my son.

(01:01:09) Justin McMillen: Yeah. But, I mean, five days a week?

(01:01:13) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Four minimum. Yeah, yeah. No, rest is important. The rest, that's for the actual building. And, yeah, I found it almost, like, eat more, rest, [get] stronger.

(01:01:30) Justin McMillen: You know, so, yeah. Rest. Yeah. It's really important. What do you eat?

(01:01:37) Stephen Kuzmanic: Okay. Well, I'm a very [...]. I have a very high [metabolism]. And I need to eat, like, an extraordinary amount of calories to keep my weight. If I were... you know, [if I] stopped lifting, I would lose 10 pounds, 15 pounds.

(01:01:57) Justin McMillen: What do you weigh right now?

(01:01:59) Stephen Kuzmanic: I'm 195 right now.

(01:02:01) Justin McMillen: Really? Yeah. Okay. I'd think you're over 200 pounds.

(01:02:05) Stephen Kuzmanic: Thank you.

(01:02:06) Justin McMillen: I mean, the videos of you are just unbelievable.

(01:02:09) Stephen Kuzmanic: I mean, I was at 206. That was the biggest I've ever been.

(01:02:14) Justin McMillen: Oh, so are you... [how tall]?

(01:02:16) Stephen Kuzmanic: I'm 5'10". And so when we're lifting, like, the big weights, that's when I was, like, 200. 200 is where I like to stay. 200 is, like, the perfect weight for me.

(01:02:27) Justin McMillen: Is it a performance thing for you? Like, is it the strength, or is it, like, what is the...

(01:02:34) Stephen Kuzmanic: I just... I just like [...]. Yeah. So, yeah, like, the way it feels. I like to be strong, you know, even [...] whatever. So [I keep] it up, you know. It makes it easier, [things] like farmer's carries, like, any of that stuff.

(01:02:54) Justin McMillen: And I should... I should do all of that. What is your weighted pull-up? Like, you do...

(01:03:03) Stephen Kuzmanic: Right. Pull-up, three plates. Yeah. That's the most. And the most... so my record for, like, strict pull-ups, 49.

(01:03:16) Justin McMillen: No way.

(01:03:17) Stephen Kuzmanic: I think two plates, you know...

(01:03:20) Justin McMillen: That is, like, incredibly rare.

(01:03:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. It is, it's... sure.

(01:03:26) Justin McMillen: Yeah. 35, 40 is like... I mean, it's incredibly rare.

(01:03:30) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Always been good at pull-ups, for some reason. I don't know what that is. With two plates, I did definitely over ten. Two plates. So, I don't know. I'm just really strong at pull-ups or something.

(01:03:46) Justin McMillen: It's nuts. It's nuts. Yeah, yeah. It's cool to watch, because with your build being that strong, you move into sort of superhero kind of status and ability. Right? Like, jumping and, I mean, [...]. Like, you can jump, run...

(01:04:09) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(01:04:10) Justin McMillen: Do it off, like... yeah, 30 miles?

(01:04:13) Stephen Kuzmanic: Okay, I wish I had a number. How many miles we did, I mean, yeah, whatever.

(01:04:19) Justin McMillen: You're good at that. You need to, like, really... maybe you need to go hang out with another Maria Teresa, but, like, a Native American stalker, tracker.

(01:04:31) Stephen Kuzmanic: Totally. I think the most important thing you can do, obviously, like, the shooting of the bow, and then you train on that. But I think, the more ground you can cover, the better chance you have.

(01:04:45) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(01:04:45) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know, like, for example, the last area we were in was, like, this bowl. Well, we could kind of cover that whole area of terrain in half a day. But if you go over the ridge to the next [one], like, you have a better chance.

(01:05:04) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(01:05:04) Stephen Kuzmanic: And so the more ground, the more steep terrain you can cover... ...I don't know. That's why these guys, they do, like, 100-milers. They're ultramarathoners, because they want to be better.

(01:05:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Cameron Hanes is, like, very similar to you, I think. I mean, you're stronger than he is. He's done...

(01:05:28) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yes. And his thing is he does 250-mile races, and, yeah, you know, this and that.

(01:05:35) Justin McMillen: That's better? Okay.

(01:05:37) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah. So this unit I was in this year... the unit he hunts. Well, what he would do is, like, he's going in 20 miles. I mean, think about that. To then pack your animal out, you've got to do 20, 40, 60, 80, 100 miles. 50 of them with 100 pounds on your back.

(01:06:00) Justin McMillen: So could you do that?

(01:06:02) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, I could, but I'd have to, like, train a little more, I think. But me and Dan, we joke about it. We're both wrestlers, and we just know how to grind.

(01:06:15) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:06:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: And so we'll look at each other like, "How are we doing here, dude?" I'm like, "Oh, man." And we'll just keep [going].

(01:06:26) Justin McMillen: Yeah. The sweat.

(01:06:27) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. You just pull through. Like, he's like... I'm [hurting] as much as he is, you know. I feel like, dude. But he's still just gonna go. Like, I'm gonna finish the task. Yeah, of course, every time. And so we just laugh and grind it out. Dude, just keep going, you know?

(01:06:44) Justin McMillen: There's got to be some other... I mean, definitely, like, you're built for this. I mean, you can maybe... and just, yeah, you know, just getting your pace up. But tracking, too. Yeah, I mean, I had a girlfriend in high school, and her dad was an outfitter, a guide, and he had stories... he'd take, like, photographs. And his thing was, like, getting so close to them. He had stories of, like, a calf... [his hand on it], right before. Yeah. I mean, so his thing was being able to get really close. He wasn't some physical freak, but he was an absolute outdoorsman. Like, understood the animal, right?

(01:07:30) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(01:07:30) Justin McMillen: That's where I think...

(01:07:32) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Oh, totally. You know, I learn more every year. Like, I noticed even this year, I kind of, like, honed in on my own, actually, most of the time, which is kind of cool. So I was like, oh, man, I kind of know my thing. And everyone kind of has their own style of hunting. And so I just started kind of creeping around, like, real slow, and just being a little bit more diligent about being quiet. And, like, I kind of walk up this hill, and I'm like, oh, those beds are pretty fresh, you know? But I didn't [stop], and I just kind of kept walking. And sure enough, I busted cows out of this little valley, and I'm like, oh, I should have paid more attention to those fresh beds, because they were fresh.

(01:08:21) Justin McMillen: Is there any scouting ahead of time, like, before the season?

(01:08:25) Stephen Kuzmanic: So we had... we had cameras.

(01:08:27) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:08:27) Stephen Kuzmanic: Okay. We knew there were bulls in the area, obviously. And yeah, we knew they were around. So kind of the scouting we did, and [Dan] hunted a week... he's an animal. He had a week before I even went out there. So he had two, three weeks, basically, this year. And he, again, you know... yeah, he blew it. A giant trophy.

(01:08:52) Justin McMillen: Oh, oh, oh. So he blew it.

(01:08:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: He's got this... no, he didn't blow it, [...]. So, he's a special man. He was a wrestler. He was in the Marines. He served our country. He deployed a few times, and was a fireman. And he's just an absolute unit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a bulldog. He's built like, I don't know, like a bear. Like a bear rolled out of the woods, you know? He's an animal. Yeah, but yeah, he... well, he was calling. He was calling this bull. All right? Calling it in. It hung out in, like, low timber, about 60, 70 yards from him. He thought it was 100, and he never pulled out his rangefinder. He just... He was kind of caught in the moment, I guess. And so he never [took] a shot.

(01:09:58) Justin McMillen: That's crazy. Like a lifetime [bull].

(01:10:02) Stephen Kuzmanic: Like 350-plus, they guess, you know.

(01:10:06) Justin McMillen: Yeah. All right. Those stories, they're your best stories anyways.

(01:10:14) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah. That one, he... he was a killer before.

(01:10:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:10:21) Stephen Kuzmanic: He killed, I think, five. Okay. So [...] since I started going up there, we just can't seem to [...].

(01:10:28) Justin McMillen: Is it... you think it's because it's Oregon?

(01:10:31) Stephen Kuzmanic: I mean, there are places where it's easier. I don't know if it's easier anywhere. I mean, probably, like, on some reservation somewhere, you know what I mean? Or, like, private land. There's a lot of private land out there you can get landowner tags for. Yeah, I'm sure that's easier, you know.

(01:10:51) Justin McMillen: But what does it cost to do that?

(01:10:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: Eh, say 600, I think 700 bucks.

(01:10:56) Justin McMillen: And then once you have... I mean, shoot. Yeah, equipment gets up there.

(01:11:01) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Once you have all your stuff, flight, to mountain meals, and a $700 tag, and you just head out there.

(01:11:09) Justin McMillen: That's cool that you [...] there, though, because it's a big place, and there's a lot going on there. [...]

(01:11:17) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(01:11:17) Justin McMillen: Oh, no way. [...] North Washington, kind of... [...]. I was [up there] as a kid. It's awesome up there. Where in Oregon? Where were you guys this year?

(01:11:30) Stephen Kuzmanic: We're in Eagle Cap Wilderness, east. [...] lake. Okay. And then the other years we kind of [did] the west side. So we've actually [hunted] Rocky Mountain [elk] on the east... ...Roosevelt on the west, just, like, near the coast, Coastal Range.

(01:11:50) Justin McMillen: Yes. That whole... all that area, it's pretty out there.

(01:11:56) Stephen Kuzmanic: The different [...] pressure on there. And the Roosevelt, especially, sneaky. Oh, gosh. [...] Because they're, like, they're just... the ones on the east, the Rocky Mountains, are, like, a lot more vocal. So there you go. And [they bugle] a lot more.

(01:12:20) Justin McMillen: Do you come in and do a whole [call]?

(01:12:23) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. [Dan] is very good at it. So he does most of the [calling]. But when I'm off on my own... I was [bugling with] a bull this year, going back and forth for, like, 20 minutes, so it was [...].

(01:12:42) Justin McMillen: Come on.

(01:12:42) Stephen Kuzmanic: Just because it was impossible. Yeah. Well, this one, I was trying to fight. So I finally got on top of him, the view right at him, and [...]. Well, he had a broken horn and [...]. He didn't want to fight. So we do... we do... just trying to challenge him. Like, you're [in] his house. So come out and challenge [me]. But he didn't want to fight. He was all busted up.

(01:13:13) Justin McMillen: That's kind of good, though.

(01:13:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: No, I would have been [...]. Yeah.

(01:13:17) Justin McMillen: Like the, you know, the broken [...].

(01:13:20) Stephen Kuzmanic: Totally. Yeah. So they get pissed, because they want to take [you] down. Yeah. So, like, the idea is, you know, you find out where they are, you get close to him, and you [challenge] him in his house. And so he's going to challenge you. And so that's how you get them in, like, your shooting lane or whatever. Get him closer to you. And then shoot him.

(01:13:45) Justin McMillen: But wow.

(01:13:45) Stephen Kuzmanic: To me, it's really fun. And what's cool about it, too, is, like, you only have one month a year. That's it. So now you've got to wait a whole year. Yeah, with spearfishing, right, any time I can go train, or go do it any time I want, I go to the ocean. And [elk is] only once, one month a year. And so the learning curve... that's why I think it's a long learning curve, because you don't have that much time out there.

(01:14:17) Justin McMillen: Anyways, that's true.

(01:14:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know, a year, maybe, if you're lucky, two weeks. That's it. That's all you get.

(01:14:26) Justin McMillen: If you had to lay it out, between spearfishing and hunting... I think I know what you're going to say to this, but which one is harder?

(01:14:39) Stephen Kuzmanic: I would say spearfishing is probably harder, in a way. Like, you have to do so much more to, like, train your breath hold, learning. And there's just... that's such a long learning curve. Like, bowhunting is hard because the animal is so keyed up and keen on you. So... but you're still in it. Like, you can [...] spearfishing, and you can dive, you know, 30 feet or so, you know what I mean? So, like, the learning curve for spearfishing is probably longer. I'm not [saying] it's more difficult to shoot a fish. But the whole breath side of it, that's what takes a long [time].

(01:15:31) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. In the water and stuff, you know.

(01:15:34) Stephen Kuzmanic: So for people trying to get into it, it's just way harder on this [side]. It's just... what I mean, you've got to go in the ocean, hold your breath, and dive. Right? It's a lot. You know, grab a bow, go hiking. I'm not saying it's easy, but you can go hunt, and, you know, breathe doing it.

(01:15:58) Justin McMillen: Yeah. At least you can breathe.

(01:16:00) Stephen Kuzmanic: So, like, you know, people talk about buck fever, where they're, like, shaking when they're drawing. Well, imagine that same thing, but a 300-pound yellowfin. You're at 70 feet and you're holding your breath. Now imagine the physiology of that. So to get over that, it's a long time, you know. I mean, yeah, spearfishermen are way tougher. Like, on a toughness scale, like, I would say...

(01:16:30) Justin McMillen: Oh, wow. Now you use the word tough.

(01:16:33) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, I don't know. I think the learning curve is longer, but... the amount of miles and stuff you cover...

(01:16:42) Justin McMillen: Like I was saying, you know, like, I had to put together, like, a team of badasses to do whatever. [...] world-class [...].

(01:16:52) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, they don't stop. They're crazy. Yeah. I mean, I think if you actually hit one, you have to do... yeah. Like, you start doing [the math] later in the hunt, like, okay, we've got three days left. Okay, if we down a bull right here, we're at eight miles from the truck. So we've got to do eight... one, two, three, four... eight times five. What is that? 40. 40 miles. 50, with 100 [pounds] on your back.

(01:17:30) Justin McMillen: Oh, my.

(01:17:31) Stephen Kuzmanic: I start thinking that, and I'm like, yeah, [...]. They're like, well, we don't have to [...], you know. Like, trying to think of all these things.

(01:17:43) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Oh, that's a good thing.

(01:17:46) Stephen Kuzmanic: Some days, I think you're so fine, you're on your own... finally, I think you're just fired up. You just gotta... you just, you know. Yeah. Yeah, you do it.

(01:17:58) Justin McMillen: You hang it from a tree, right?

(01:18:00) Stephen Kuzmanic: That's right. Yeah. So you can bring half of it out, go back the next day or whatever, you know.

(01:18:08) Justin McMillen: Fine. Yeah. That's crazy. If you were trapped on a desert island, and you have somebody with you, a hunter or a spearfisherman, who would you rather have with you?

(01:18:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: Why? Because [he'd] fish? It's more likely... that equipment? Oh, you mean, like...

(01:18:32) Justin McMillen: No, we're just in nature, right? So, yeah. A permanent island. You're on an island, with [...] coming out of the ocean.

(01:18:44) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah. Spearfisherman. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you mean, like, you don't even have... you don't have your stuff?

(01:18:53) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:18:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah. So you just now have to, like... Oh, man. Oh, well, [the hunter], because you're in for the grind. Okay. You know what I mean. Meals for days. The filtering... they don't care about the grind. You know, [...] I need to swim off the boat, come right back.

(01:19:16) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what I mean.

(01:19:19) Stephen Kuzmanic: You snap up there like, oh, kind of just like, dude. And he's 12 days living in a tent, you know, dehydrated food.

(01:19:29) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's interesting to think about that. Like, you think about Cameron Hanes. He became... I don't know how people feel about him, but he became really well known, and it's really about his toughness. This idea around [...].

(01:19:47) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah.

(01:19:48) Justin McMillen: And would you say that's kind of, like, what people are striving towards?

(01:19:55) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah. He's not the only one. I mean, there's more elk hunters, dude. Like, this is not a Cameron-specific thing. I think a lot of that community, you're like, yeah, we need to do these long races to get ready for it. Yeah. It's... you just want that, you know. Like, yeah. You know, obviously Cameron, he's really, you know, what he does, and good for him. I mean, he's a badass. That's [what he does] for a living, basically, right?

(01:20:31) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty awesome.

(01:20:33) Stephen Kuzmanic: I mean, if I could spearfish for a living, I would probably do that.

(01:20:38) Justin McMillen: Yeah. [...] good to you, man. You've figured it out. Do you work as a longshoreman? What does that look like?

(01:20:47) Stephen Kuzmanic: I'm a mechanic. I fix container cranes. The giant cranes that unload the ships. Yeah. It's nonstop. So that port runs 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

(01:21:01) Justin McMillen: And same, full time?

(01:21:03) Stephen Kuzmanic: Pretty much. So you have highs and lows, I guess. Like, coming in... But, yeah, most of the time, I mean, this equipment gets beat, and you gotta go fix it. And it's not like, you know... you try to prevent that. I mean, it's kind of hard, running every piece of equipment for weeks on end. So you just kind of [put out] fires.

(01:21:25) Justin McMillen: Where are the boats... are you at Long Beach?

(01:21:28) Stephen Kuzmanic: I work [at] [...]. Yeah. L.A. Harbor. [The harbors are] right next to each other.

(01:21:34) Justin McMillen: Okay. So, yeah. And then where are [the ships] from?

(01:21:37) Stephen Kuzmanic: Everywhere. They come from all over the world.

(01:21:40) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:21:41) Stephen Kuzmanic: China, I think mostly China. But there's some... yeah. I don't get too much involved. Like, the ships, like, I just don't really know. Yeah, yeah. I just hear there's three ships docked, and I gotta make sure they can unload. You know what I mean?

(01:21:58) Justin McMillen: Sure, sure. You're not, like, checking the manifest to see.

(01:22:02) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, exactly.

(01:22:03) Justin McMillen: Today, is that pretty well monitored, as far as stuff smuggled in, and just customs?

(01:22:08) Stephen Kuzmanic: Very, very [...]. And they, you know, they scan all the containers.

(01:22:13) Justin McMillen: And they've never found anything that...

(01:22:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Not that I know of, but I'm sure they have.

(01:22:22) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. That's crazy.

(01:22:25) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah. Yeah. There's scanners. Yeah. They're always down there. But, yeah.

(01:22:33) Justin McMillen: Nice. Yeah. Cool job, though.

(01:22:36) Stephen Kuzmanic: Cool job. You know, shipping was a cool job, too. If [I could have done] that and go home every night... That's it. Yeah. Because that was pretty cool to see. And, you know, "Hey, we're going to Alaska," or going to Hawaii, or going, you know... I mean, you're just running the engine room in the middle of the ocean. And, yeah, that was pretty cool, too.

(01:23:05) Justin McMillen: [As a] dad, [that] doesn't work anymore.

(01:23:07) Stephen Kuzmanic: No, no. And he's three. He turns three [in] December.

(01:23:12) Justin McMillen: So he's fun now.

(01:23:13) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh my gosh. He's always been fun.

(01:23:15) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah, I see, like...

(01:23:17) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Mini-me, totally.

(01:23:19) Justin McMillen: Rough. And he's got a mullet. Nice, nice.

(01:23:22) Stephen Kuzmanic: I'm teaching him, like, wrestling moves and stuff. And my wife says, "Well, what if he doesn't want to wrestle?" And I'm like, you know, in life, sometimes there's things you don't want to [do].

(01:23:38) Justin McMillen: Yeah, right. That's... yeah.

(01:23:40) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, yeah. Like, Dan's raising his son there on the wrestling team. And he tells him, "You're gonna understand later why I have you in wrestling. You're not understanding that now. Well, I promise you, you'll understand."

(01:23:59) Justin McMillen: So important, man.

(01:24:01) Stephen Kuzmanic: It's on us as parents to teach them things, because they're not [going to]...

(01:24:07) Justin McMillen: Yeah, right.

(01:24:08) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yes. I mean, like, I don't want to... well, I don't want to either, you know? Yeah. That's what wrestling teaches you. Wrestling is very difficult. It's tough. There's no easy part about wrestling, but it teaches, like, everything. Yeah. You're like, whatever. Yeah, easy. You know, like, you've done the hardest thing already.

(01:24:33) Justin McMillen: Wrestling... that's a good thing. Wrestlers are the toughest.

(01:24:38) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(01:24:38) Justin McMillen: You know, it produces beasts, right? Totally. Like special [operators], like SEALs and stuff. They always say, "I was a wrestler." Wrestlers. Yeah. Even, like, I heard this the other day, it was not only just wrestlers, it was wrestlers that had some [...]. So maybe a wrestler, like, you know, who didn't accomplish their goals, and now they're angry. They need to prove... they want to prove themselves another way. They go into a program like that. They're not quite... ...as awesome as they think.

(01:25:16) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(01:25:17) Justin McMillen: It's always the way it was. Or somebody like Dan Gable, or somebody that kind of [...].

(01:25:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know, [we] watched the documentary on Iowa wrestlers when I was in wrestling. And so that was, like, kind of another level. It's just a sport. You know, it's more popular, I think. I think a lot more people are... more eyes on it, because before, nobody knew it.

(01:25:46) Justin McMillen: Sure, sure.

(01:25:47) Stephen Kuzmanic: You know, there's some schools that are well known. Like, my high school was really well known for their program. But I think people understand now, like, there's this whole... you see, like, a massive influx of people that are wanting to do these combat sports. And so they're in wrestling programs, too. And, yeah, if you do that, it's a lot easier.

(01:26:15) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, I mean, it is where you're conditioning a ton, and you guys are just freaks that are nice. And, you know, wrestlers are running in the morning. They're cutting weight at the gym. [...] putting plastic bags on themselves.

(01:26:38) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. To sweat, right.

(01:26:40) Justin McMillen: And just freaks.

(01:26:41) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. I was 160 on Monday, 145 on Friday, every week, the whole season. You know, just grind, grind, grind. Make weight, right? You know, the coaches would help us. It's, like, "Yeah, just make weight." You know, it's kind of like an unwritten... like, you need [to make] this weight.

(01:27:04) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah, you do it.

(01:27:06) Stephen Kuzmanic: And they're a lot better with that [now]. So, yeah.

(01:27:10) Justin McMillen: Oh, yeah.

(01:27:10) Stephen Kuzmanic: They actually get down, get [to weight] in there. Actually, they'll cut another couple pounds so they can get a meal, at least, you know. But, yeah, man, it's just a grind.

(01:27:25) Justin McMillen: That's right. Yeah. So, [...].

(01:27:27) Stephen Kuzmanic: Definitely. Yeah.

(01:27:29) Justin McMillen: So I'm pretty... I appreciate what you're saying. It's just when you want to do it. Because it's like... for us, my son [did] jiu-jitsu over here. He did it for a few years, and he's [on] crew now. He loves... when he's not in the water, he's... it's been amazing for him, to watch him. That's his thing. He was doing jiu-jitsu for a while, and one of the best [things] about it was just not being afraid of, you know... wrestling, his confidence. Yeah. I mean, he just... he learned to, like, push right into stuff. And yeah, I'd watch him get to it.

(01:28:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: And you just feel at home, you know? It's, like, automatic.

(01:28:19) Justin McMillen: [It's a] weird place that people can go to.

(01:28:22) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah. Like, conditioning that out, totally.

(01:28:26) Justin McMillen: I know that wrestling, jiu-jitsu... because, yeah, just respect, man. And then, you know, the greatest thing was some of the teachers were good there. I think any jiu-jitsu gym is going to... when he has other men in his life telling him, like, do this... ...you know, respectfully, yes. It's really important to understand, like, there are certain people in life you listen to. And I'm fine with that person teaching [him] discipline.

(01:29:00) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(01:29:01) Justin McMillen: You know. No, my kids... I mean, my youngest, she's [at] an American [...] gym. She surfs every morning. She's doing yoga. She does karate. She's, like, on this pathway to become a black belt. And, yeah, she's doing the most. My theory on it is, like, they gotta be doing hard things. Like, the way it seems, if you're gonna make a good adult, you have to go through adversity, right? Well, either, like, [...] where you get your ass beat, or, you know, and that builds character, or you're in a really tough situation and you overcome it. But if you get kind of... you and your wife have, like... you gotta help him find it. If [you don't], you know, he'll go find something to test his mettle.

(01:29:57) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Just like, it can't always be easy, you know. You need hard things. Just like spearfishing. All this stuff's related. Like, wrestling, all of it. Like, if you're not challenging yourself in some way... ...then what are you doing? Right?

(01:30:14) Justin McMillen: Right.

(01:30:14) Stephen Kuzmanic: I don't even know, like, how do you feel accomplished? How do you want to move on to the next day? How do you even function in the world? Yeah. Like, be a little tough. Like, try to learn something and figure it out, and, like, challenge yourself. I don't know. So just, like, [going to your] job, going home, eating too much, and, like, sitting around... What? I don't know. What are you doing?

(01:30:41) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And not, you know. Well, I really believe it's our job to toughen kids up as much as possible, and try to do that without [...]. Yeah. I mean, so you can come up with love, too. It's like, you know, I think about this a lot, like... So this, by the way, I'm not... yeah. No, but so I think about this. I look at the wrestlers that were successful. Obviously, they had all the parts, right? But, you know, everyone has them, everyone has all that. But then, not only did they have that, they had the support from their family. The parents, right? Every match, they're watching, taking care of, "Hey, what do you need for the tournament?" You know what I mean? And the guys who don't have that, sometimes that makes them angry and tougher.

(01:31:41) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(01:31:41) Justin McMillen: Or they're not quite up to their potential. So, tough, but also supportive.

(01:31:47) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. And it's really important, I think. I think there's a line, though, between pushing a kid and, like, maybe they didn't want to do it. And then they think the only reason... the only way I can get [my parents to] love me is if I wrestle.

(01:32:04) Justin McMillen: Yes. Yeah.

(01:32:05) Stephen Kuzmanic: I don't know. I don't know either. And so, no, I'm not claiming... and that's why, I, you know, I think I'm kind of [going to] give [him] direction, but not, like, force him. I think I want to make it sound like wrestling is really cool, and something that's really important, and that he'll want to be in wrestling.

(01:32:28) Justin McMillen: Yeah. He'll say he wants to do that.

(01:32:30) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. Yeah.

(01:32:31) Justin McMillen: Maybe [to] impress you, but also because it was pressure.

(01:32:35) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, that's okay. It's fine. Yeah.

(01:32:38) Justin McMillen: All that, to impress my dad. Yeah, that's part of it. That's where it starts. I, you know, myself... so I'll tell you the story of how that almost blew up in my face. So my son's middle name is [...]. Right? It's Hawaiian. And it means ocean, man. It's a very, like, significant label to put on a kid, which... it's like water. Water, man. You know, like, it's a big deal to say that. I didn't know this when he was young. Heather just said, let's just call [him] this name. In the water in Hawaii, it means you paddle, you can swim, you can dive, surf, all this stuff. So here he has this name. Well, he's [...] a little more [...]. And I have nothing to do with it. And I kind of said... I think he was probably, like, eight or nine. I was like, he's not going to do this. Like, it's like, yeah. And then one day we were down at the beach in Laguna, and, I mean, I got him swimming, and, yeah, yeah, on the beach. And he said, "Yeah, I want to swim out. I want to swim out with you." So, okay, we got in the water, swim out about 75 yards, pretty far for him. He's only, like...

(01:33:53) Stephen Kuzmanic: Sure.

(01:33:53) Justin McMillen: Yeah. We go farther. Now we're, like, way out. [...] like, next to [the] cove, you know, or whatever. He said, "[Let's do it]." I was like, "Really?" Yeah. So, boy, yeah, swimming all the way around in one day. Right. That went from... he was, like, nine, eight or nine. We swim all the way from [...]. Like, nobody'd even do that with me, right? You'd be scared out there, you know? Fear. No, nothing. And then it just became a thing, like, "Let's go swim now." Yeah. I mean, he's like... he swims as well as [any]... ...man. There's no... he has no competitive stuff around it, which is interesting. He's just really fucking good at it. Like, we go down the backside, it has a 60-foot drop there in the back. So he'll go down to 35, 40 feet. He'll help me teach guys, like, the 20-year-olds, to dive, you know. And he's, like, at this point, like, 11 or 12. So it will happen. But I gotta be careful, because if I was just pushing it in his face, yeah, he would have probably done it because he wanted to make sure I was happy. But also, you know, it may have ruined it for him.

(01:35:08) Stephen Kuzmanic: Sure.

(01:35:08) Justin McMillen: No. He's good. [We have a] beautiful relationship. And that's like... it's something I admire.

(01:35:15) Stephen Kuzmanic: That's cool. Yeah.

(01:35:16) Justin McMillen: So let him find his way.

(01:35:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, yeah. Does he, does he spearfish yet?

(01:35:21) Justin McMillen: He shot one. He shot his first fish... we went to Fiji, okay, for this thing. And, first time we went out, he shot a fish with all these locals. We brought it back to the beach, cut it up, scraped [it with] shells, got the little scales off. And these little things right there, like... Yeah, it was amazing. They were like, [...] water on it.

(01:35:44) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, yeah.

(01:35:45) Justin McMillen: He ate it within ten minutes of shooting it. So that was just a little... he's not done.

(01:35:52) Stephen Kuzmanic: That's fine. It's a great way to start. Yeah. Honestly, if you can, if you can three-prong a calico bass, you can kill anything in the world.

(01:36:03) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Those fish are sneaky.

(01:36:05) Stephen Kuzmanic: I have had that.

(01:36:06) Justin McMillen: I've only ever used a three-prong. That's how I spear. Yeah. I like three-prong because I like to try to get as close as I can. That's what it did to me, because I think, like, how do you become, like, one of those mystical Native Americans who walk through the forest and [...]?

(01:36:28) Stephen Kuzmanic: Like, totally.

(01:36:29) Justin McMillen: So I would want to figure out, like, how do you... how close? Yeah, well, I did it with... you can be like somebody who just has some magical thing. It's like, just creeping up on them.

(01:36:41) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, yeah. Well, just the same way. I mean, you know, like, I've had [them come] right up to [me], like, look right at [me].

(01:36:49) Justin McMillen: Oh, yeah.

(01:36:50) Stephen Kuzmanic: Right through the head, you know. Yeah. There is some [truth] to that. Like, when there's lobster diving. Just lobsters, no gun. And lobster [diving], I look around me, I'm like, giant calico all around me. I'm like, I'm gonna come back tomorrow, I'm going to dive with my [gun]. So I just pretend like I was lobster diving. Sure enough, knuckle, boom, you know?

(01:37:18) Justin McMillen: So there is, like, this understated thing.

(01:37:21) Stephen Kuzmanic: They know you're weird, for sure. So, like, not looking like you're hunting them [gets] you closer.

(01:37:29) Justin McMillen: Yeah. With [...], I think the more you know that feeling, especially when there's a lot of surge, and you're like... you can go in and you're fighting it at first. Yeah, you know, you're kind of stumbling and getting in, and even... you're fighting it because you're just trying to not move too much. And then you go, and you start to get into that place. So when you get out of the water, you're like, you've got sea legs, you know? Yeah. It's a lot of surge. I think the more that I get to where I'm just kind of part of that whole motion...

(01:38:04) Stephen Kuzmanic: That's the key. Yeah. Like, I love shooting in really [...] surge. You're like... there's a lot of differences in depth, you know, where you go super deep, then there's a shelf and you just come up, or, you know, you kind of play that kind of a spot.

(01:38:22) Justin McMillen: But, yeah, [...]. I haven't shot in forever. Yeah. Yeah. And which is great.

(01:38:28) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, definitely.

(01:38:30) Justin McMillen: [...] Well, it's amazing that it happens. Now we have... it's just annoying. Beautiful, with massive sheepshead, like, this big.

(01:38:48) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, they're not afraid at all.

(01:38:52) Justin McMillen: Like for you.

(01:38:53) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yes.

(01:38:53) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Huge. They always come through. Yeah. Huge. So just chilling. Just sitting in there.

(01:39:00) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, it'll really drive you nuts, because you'll be like, I can't believe this here, I can't do anything.

(01:39:09) Justin McMillen: Wow. That's all [protected] now. And, yeah, from, you know, when you go in and there's... you go down, like, a spot before you come into that little bit more?

(01:39:21) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, totally. So if you look at the rock that's there, that should be on the [...] line. From there out, it's protected, all the way from there, all the way [to] Thousand Steps. You can't do anything there.

(01:39:35) Justin McMillen: But they did it all to help, because the sheepshead are growing, and they're killing the urchins to help [the kelp] grow. So the whole thing... so it's beautiful.

(01:39:46) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. We went to Greece, and it was, like, clear water and everything, but I was like, it's insane, our backyard is way better than this.

(01:39:55) Justin McMillen: Totally. You know, there's so much... like, yeah, this shoreline is, like, the best in the world.

(01:40:01) Stephen Kuzmanic: We know it. Yeah, I don't know. That's why I say that, like, in the world, like, right up here. Palos Verdes, it's all over, you know what I mean? And then Catalina, like, this whole area. It's [been an] insane fishery the last decade.

(01:40:17) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's insane.

(01:40:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. People don't realize.

(01:40:20) Justin McMillen: No. And I think they don't, because it's, like, a little secret, kind of.

(01:40:25) Stephen Kuzmanic: I mean, yeah. I used to drive... it's a short drive, and I would... I might see one or two guys, like, literally all season. And then all of a sudden spearfishing [blew up], and there's trucks all down the coast, you know. And it's like, that's cool. Like, I'm okay with that, but you gotta find your own, like, secret spot, you know.

(01:40:49) Justin McMillen: Yeah. How big... what's [the] biggest [white seabass] for you guys?

(01:40:54) Stephen Kuzmanic: Biggest, 57 pounds. But... The problem, a little bit... yeah, I don't really claim that one, because it was the first [white seabass] I shot. It was Father's Day. I went out, and I'd never seen one, [looking] for three years. I just never saw one. And I come up and I see this fish, like, three feet [under] the surface, and I'm like, is that a seal? I thought it was a seal. It's so big. And they're, like, silver, [like a] seal, and I'm like, oh, shit, that's a fish. Boom! Shoot it. It was just... it was a female sleeping right on the surface, and I shoot it. Well, my boys, they taught me how to shoot fish, right? [...] They didn't tell me what to [do after]. Oh, I know... it's so much line. It's all tangled through all this kelp. And so I finally kind of, like, I started doing the line. I get close to the fish where I think it is. I [...] kind of, like, [my] gun, floats... and I find the fish tied up, like, [...] feet down in some kelp, and go to grab it to bring it up. What's [stuck]? Oh, you're supposed to go down and cut below the kelp. Well, I didn't know that. So, yeah, yeah. I'm like, oh, no. My heart... early in my career, right? Hard to do this. I can't dive anymore. I'm so jacked up. And then I start looking for my gun. I can't find my gun. I can't find my line. I can't dive anymore. I get [...] the fish, and I'm like, kind of panicking, with the water getting dirtier, and I'm like, crap. So I leave. I go to the Father's Day brunch. So I leave, and I call my friend to tell the story. "This is where I was." He goes, "[I'll go]." They went out that afternoon. I'm like, oh, I don't know. Oh, there's, like, some picture with my 57 [white seabass].

(01:42:56) Justin McMillen: That's good, though. It was a fish.

(01:42:59) Stephen Kuzmanic: It was, like... that was a fish. Yeah, that was my first. And, you know, [...] like that. That's dangerous.

(01:43:08) Justin McMillen: Yeah. I'm glad.

(01:43:09) Stephen Kuzmanic: It was lucky. I literally [could've] died, more or less. And I was like, I don't know, this must...

(01:43:17) Justin McMillen: That's nuts. Yeah.

(01:43:18) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yes. Yes. Like, that thing's real.

(01:43:20) Justin McMillen: Totally. Those [...] feet [under] the surface, six or seven of them just [cruising]. Isn't it crazy? Yeah. And they're so huge. I mean, they get up to 80, 90 pounds, and you're, like, in the kelp off the shore. You're like, what are these fish? What is that? I've never shot them before. Is that how it is when you go [out]?

(01:43:44) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, no, no, no. I mean... so one time, I go back to this special reef, and I [get] surrounded by 200, 300 [fish]. Three or four times, one [dive]. What is going on? Just [seabass] all around me. Then I [make another dive]... Same thing. Dive, shot, four dives. Like, I was like, what is that? [...]

(01:44:12) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:44:13) Stephen Kuzmanic: I've only ever seen them, like, I know, usually, like, singled up, and kind of like, you might see, like, a [...]. I mean, it was just like, I don't know, it was insane. Just crazy. Hundreds of them all around me, you know. It was insane.

(01:44:32) Justin McMillen: It was like, wow, you called it.

(01:44:35) Stephen Kuzmanic: It was one of the coolest things ever.

(01:44:38) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So people starting in spearfishing, where would they [...] start?

(01:44:45) Stephen Kuzmanic: Get yourself a mask, [snorkel], fins, and just go out. Go out [when it's] clear. Don't go out when it's, like, [surgy], you know. Make sure it's, like, no surge. [...] no surge. That's, like... you don't want surge the first time, you know what I mean? You want calm. You want to make sure the water's blue. So you can tell if the water's dirty by the color. Blue, it's clear. [If] it's green, like that really pretty, like, emerald color, where people are like, "Look how pretty the water is..." ...dirty.

(01:45:21) Justin McMillen: You know, I never noticed that.

(01:45:24) Stephen Kuzmanic: So the [...] the water, the dirtier it is.

(01:45:27) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(01:45:27) Stephen Kuzmanic: The bluer, it's clear. So, like, you look outside, you know it's clear when...

(01:45:33) Justin McMillen: When you say blue, it's just, like, a type of blue?

(01:45:37) Stephen Kuzmanic: It's, like, a dark blue. Okay. Yeah. That means it's clear. Green, dirty.

(01:45:43) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:45:44) Stephen Kuzmanic: So pick a clear, nice day. Like, go dive, like, the reserve. Don't [...]. Just go out there. [...] Start off with that. Breathe easy. You know what I mean? Relax. [The] reason is, go [see] fish, and go see... even, like, being out there.

(01:46:06) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:46:06) Stephen Kuzmanic: You might not [shoot anything], you know. And then if you don't like it, I don't know, whatever. Like, you're gonna get more comfortable as time goes on. So give it some time to, like, get used to it. It wasn't comfortable for me for a long time, you know. But I just kept going. Keep going, keep going. And eventually it's like you become... you almost, like, [become one] with the ocean. Like, you're like, cool.

(01:46:37) Justin McMillen: Sounds cool.

(01:46:38) Stephen Kuzmanic: But it's true. It's true. I don't even know how to describe it. You're just like... eventually you're just like, oh, this is, like, my home, you know? I belong here. And it takes a while, you know?

(01:46:55) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:46:56) Stephen Kuzmanic: Sometimes you go out and it's like, it's not for me [...]. But there are times where [...], not very often.

(01:47:05) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen to that.

(01:47:09) Stephen Kuzmanic: And so, totally. Something's not right, [whatever] that is. [...] I don't [know].

(01:47:17) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:47:17) Stephen Kuzmanic: There's times... or you're down, you know, how long it feels like forever. You're like, "Oh, I'd better be careful today." Totally.

(01:47:28) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. You know, [...].

(01:47:30) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, a little too confident. Yeah. Whatever.

(01:47:33) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. Well, certainly, I appreciate you coming here today.

(01:47:37) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. It's been really cool.

(01:47:39) Justin McMillen: I think anyone watching this that wants to learn about spearfishing, you covered a lot of ground.

(01:47:45) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah. And, yeah.

(01:47:46) Justin McMillen: Just... I'm excited. At some point, you'll get more stories. Come back when you shoot your first [bull].

(01:47:55) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, man. Yeah. Or at least I hope so.

(01:47:58) Justin McMillen: I hope [...].

(01:47:59) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah.

(01:47:59) Justin McMillen: So you'll do it?

(01:48:01) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, I think so.

(01:48:02) Justin McMillen: You gotta find your Maria Teresa. Totally. Maybe you already found him.

(01:48:08) Stephen Kuzmanic: Yeah, maybe. Dan is definitely part of that, for sure. Yeah. He's real. He's, like, a real hunter, you know.

(01:48:21) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:48:21) Stephen Kuzmanic: Oh, yeah. He was there [for] our first two years. [...] Yeah, yeah. He's a good dude. He was just here last week.

(01:48:34) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. Oh. All right. Well, thank you.

(01:48:37) Stephen Kuzmanic: All right.