Transcript

(00:00:16) Britton Arey: Psychiatry. We often get pigeonholed as pushers, and that is so not what I believe it should be about. I think we've got so much more we can do for patients than pushing medications on them. I feel like part of our responsibility for patients is to approach everybody through that frame and, you know, I kind of hit on this earlier, the biopsychosocial lens. And for me it's more the biopsychosocial-spiritual one. I know that makes people uncomfortable, you know, in medicine, to hear doctors talking about spirituality. I think it's often perceived as pretty close to religion, which people tend to shy away from. That's not how it, it is. It is one avenue. But I think our, our job when we, when we see patients is to conceptualize whatever is going on with them through that, that biological, psychological, social, spiritual framework. So we do what we can to support them on their journeys, and sleep is one of the foundational pillars. If they're not sleeping, there's no medication in the world that's going to help my anxious patient. You know, you're fighting an uphill battle with somebody if their sleep is shot.

(00:01:49) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And, I love what you said about your... You're not just about medication. And I'm curious why doctors like... it's so rare. Psychiatrists like you...

(00:02:01) Britton Arey: Oh.

(00:02:01) Justin McMillen: It's extremely rare. Why? Why do you think there's not more people like you that exist in psychiatry?

(00:02:11) Britton Arey: I think that... Unfortunately for the field, there's been a lot of pressure for throughput, for throughput. If you're operating in a purely insurance model, I think in order to, to make a living in our field, and to meet the performance metrics that are in insurance and in certain clinical settings, the incentive is to, to see patients as quickly as possible. A lot of people in psychiatry, who I think go into it with the best intentions... And I mean, UCLA, where I was, really trained us on the, the biopsychosocial model. And I loved that, my training. So I learned, I had amazing mentors. And then I saw colleagues who graduated and were passionate about what we had learned and wanted to practice it, and found themselves in a practice setting that wasn't conducive. So you can't, in 15 minutes with a patient, get into the foundational...

(00:03:36) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:03:37) Britton Arey: How are you sleeping? What does your diet look like, your exercise? Like, what is your connection with other people like? All the things that are really fundamental to anything that, that we see in our field, right? They, they don't have time to ask or get those answers, let alone follow them longitudinally to do the deep dive. They get to understand people. So I feel like, I don't think it's because they're just, like, bad doctors.

(00:04:15) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:04:15) Britton Arey: I'm sure. No, I don't.

(00:04:17) Justin McMillen: Yes. All right. No, please.

(00:04:19) Britton Arey: I, I, and I appreciate that. I just think it's largely due to the pressure of the current system and the reimbursement that doesn't work for mental health, and it doesn't... There's no way for a person like me, who, I love doing therapy. I love the longitudinal relationship with patients. It's like, why I get out of bed in the morning is because connecting with people and understanding them and being part of the, the pillar of their world is an honor and a privilege. And, like, I get to do that every single day. But I think if I tried to do that in a purely insurance model, I wouldn't be able, I wouldn't have the luxury of time...

(00:05:15) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:05:16) Britton Arey: ...that I currently have. So I think that's the very long-winded answer, I apologize.

(00:05:23) Justin McMillen: Why is the... I'm certain the American, the American public is absolutely screaming to have more people like you exist. I know this is true. When we had another person on here that does holistic psychiatry, and he always sort of goes towards a holistic approach and long psychotherapy sessions. And after that happened, our messages blew up. There were so many people. So I mean, you can attest as a producer, I mean, people said, why aren't you in my state? Like, why is this happening everywhere? I see my psychiatrist and they don't know anything about me. So you're on the forefront of where this is probably supposed to go, and then it's terrible. The system makes it hard for people, the kind of compassion that you had in school, to have to fit into a mold. Because you guys, I mean, as a, as a doctor, you went to school for, you know, so many years.

(00:06:21) Britton Arey: Yeah, yeah.

(00:06:21) Justin McMillen: You know, you're a doctor and you have to pay, you know, doctors have to get paid. So how do you do that now? And it's like you just get to, like, churn patients or whatever and just do medication management, and I think that's terrible for everyone involved.

(00:06:43) Britton Arey: I agree with you. I think it would be really difficult to get out of training with the number of years we invest, and the amount of debt that's scary when we, when we do graduate, and then feel the, the pressure to try and make a living and be unable to practice according to our conscience and how we, you know, the passion that we all bring to the profession. And I see so many of my colleagues burnt out because that isn't the [...] format.

(00:07:21) Justin McMillen: And I'm, I'm on LinkedIn and I saw the post about how you practice and the biopsychosocial model, and you said something existential. So I'm familiar. But I love, I love this.

(00:07:37) Britton Arey: So when I, when I went through residency, one of the first books that I was given from a mentor of mine is The Gift of Therapy by Irvin Yalom. And he is one of my heroes in psychiatry.

(00:07:55) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:07:55) Britton Arey: And it's, it's, it's totally readable. I would so recommend it. I know you have a passion for this field, and you're in it, and you're pioneering so much in it.

(00:08:09) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:08:10) Britton Arey: It's, it's been...

(00:08:11) Justin McMillen: This is so good.

(00:08:13) Britton Arey: You can click on and go to Amazon and, and it's... I mean, it's... Irvin Yalom wrote the textbook on existential therapy, which, which...

(00:08:25) Justin McMillen: I'm going to look into that.

(00:08:27) Britton Arey: ...changed my approach to how I practice. It set the tone for how I relate to patients. And it was the first book that gave me permission to be a human being in a session.

(00:08:44) Justin McMillen: Let's... So I'm gonna make an assumption here. Does that mean you bring your heart and you feel what's going on?

(00:08:55) Britton Arey: It's very much... Yeah, what it means... It means there's... You know, I feel like traditional psychiatry was where the psychiatrist just is a blank slate, right? Where patients are supposed to be projecting things onto us, and we're this receptacle. And then we have this paternalistic approach where we're supposed to be dictating to our patients, like, this is what's good for you, what you need to do. Yalom really turns that on its head and suggests that the real value...

(00:09:35) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:09:35) Britton Arey: ...the true value in psychotherapy wasn't necessarily that paternalism. It wasn't, wasn't even the advice. It was the, what it was, was the connection with, with this, you know, with other humans. Shared humanity, that shared journey with somebody. That's the agent of, of therapy, far more than... then you see them being in this with another person who's very much with you. And, you know, hence The Gift of Therapy. It's not just a gift we give our patients. It's their gift to us, to trust us on that journey.

(00:10:23) Justin McMillen: Well, I mean, that's such a privilege. I'll tell you a really quick story. One of my, one of the therapists that worked for us, amazing person. He was working with a really hard case. And I, I remember it perfectly because it hit me so hard. We were in some parking lot and I said, how are you going to approach this? He said, well, I'm going to talk to him and tell him, look, we're linking arms here. And we got a lot to fight, and it's just you and me, and we're arm in arm, and I'm going to help you get through this. And I was like, whoa, that was like... it just shifted my whole head, right? Because it's me on this side, you on that side, talking, listening. I'm writing stuff down. I'm thinking, I'm engaged in motivational interviewing answers. This guy was like, bond first, connection first. You're not alone. I'm going to be with you, and I'm gonna... And the cool thing about this person is he's this huge former football player turned psychotherapist.

(00:11:25) Britton Arey: Right.

(00:11:25) Justin McMillen: So, yeah, exactly.

(00:11:27) Britton Arey: I totally relate to that.

(00:11:29) Justin McMillen: It was like, just thinking of him with this guy, just like, I'm going to battle with you, demons. I was like, this is so damn cool. So when you're saying I gotta read this book, I think I've heard of it, but I haven't read it. So one of the things we say at Tree House is that humans are built for bonding. And if you don't bond with humans, you'll bond with anything that produces the same neurochemical response, which could be drugs, substances, it could be technology, could be money, or... I mean, it's just, life is about attachments. And so we find a lot of what we do is we remove substances and we replace them with humans, so they have formed connections. And that's a huge part. There's a whole part about Tree House, but at some point I'll show you what we do and you'll get it right away. It's so much about that. So that's... I feel like you're hitting the nail on the head.

(00:12:28) Britton Arey: And this is a thing I referenced earlier, but we didn't really have a chance to get into the Harvard Grant Study.

(00:12:35) Justin McMillen: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(00:12:37) Britton Arey: Super important and foundational for what you do as well, because it underscores the importance of exactly what you're talking about here. So the Grant Study was one of the longest longitudinal studies done looking at the drivers of human happiness and well-being and longevity. So they, you know...

(00:13:06) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's like so many years. Because it's outlived people, right?

(00:13:12) Britton Arey: That's... okay. Keep going.

(00:13:14) Justin McMillen: Got it.

(00:13:15) Britton Arey: Right. Because in academia, right, you often get in and you start a research project, and it's your passion project for 20 or 30 years.

(00:13:27) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:13:28) Britton Arey: And you publish stuff, and when you're ready to retire, you hire new people maybe to carry it forward, and, you know, go and see it, you know, raise it and, you know, have it grow. But they managed, over I think it was a 70-year period, they had multiple PIs across multiple generations.

(00:13:53) Justin McMillen: And PI, which is like the leader of the study.

(00:13:57) Britton Arey: Yeah, exactly. But thank you for that clarification. But they had multiple lead investigators who were willing to make their careers shepherding this study, to look at two cohorts out of, in Massachusetts. So it was one that was a group of, I think, sophomores in, in college at Harvard, and then another of inner-city youth in, in Massachusetts. And so they followed these groups throughout, you know, decades and years. They would get them and they would, you know, do a phone survey with them. Hey, how are you doing? You know, what does your life look like now? Are you married? Do you have a job? Who's in your world? How's your diet? You know, what other medical issues have you come up with? And they would do a survey on their, their happiness. And they would ask about their health, right? So every couple years, for all the people who were willing and continued to, to survive this really long study. And they were looking at all different types of variables that potentially could have impacted health and wellness and ultimately happiness. And throughout this entire study, they, they published a bunch of different [...] on it, and [...], who's written a book about the subject as well, was a lead principal investigator on this, and he's absolutely brilliant. You know, they've, they've talked a lot about the fact that there was really only one variable that correlated with both happiness as well as health and longevity. And what might that have been, you know?

(00:15:58) Justin McMillen: Well, I guess when I, when I talk about this study, I don't know that I remember. So I don't know. It's social connection, right? It's how much, how robust your social life is, right? How much social interaction you have. It's a greater predictor for longevity than even exercise, right?

(00:16:23) Britton Arey: If I could clarify. Yes and no.

(00:16:26) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:16:27) Britton Arey: So yes, it was, it was about the, the social connection aspect, not about the robustness.

(00:16:35) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:16:35) Britton Arey: It was the presence of at least one authentic connection. So I think that at least one authentic human connection, one human that you could call when you needed to, that would be there for you, the one that you could turn to if, you know, if everything in your world... just having one person to do that was the biggest single predictor. It wasn't being married. It wasn't having a whole bunch of friends. It wasn't, you know, being surrounded by people. It was having one person in your corner. And, you know, the, the gravity of that statement. And you're right. I mean, you know, loneliness has been shown to be as big of a risk factor for, you know, the, the [...] of, of health and wellness as a pack of cigarettes a day. Loneliness really does kill. So the, the idea that one person can make, like, your life... is huge. And sometimes that's, that's what we, we get to be, that person in our patients' lives. And again, like, how, how cool is that?

(00:17:54) Justin McMillen: It's amazing. It's amazing. You can see how that lines up with your work that you were saying in existential psychotherapy.

(00:18:03) Britton Arey: Yeah.

(00:18:04) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Because you're saying, yeah, that, that bond, that connection is possibly the single most important thing you do. And I think you know more about this than I do, but there's research out there about therapeutic alliance, which is in the same vein, right? It shows that actually that has more of an effect on the success of the therapy itself than even the skill sets of the therapist. Is that right?

(00:18:34) Britton Arey: Exactly right.

(00:18:35) Justin McMillen: It's crazy.

(00:18:36) Britton Arey: That's the rapport. It's the bond that we have with the patients. It predicts far more than what a psychiatrist knows, or what they do. It's whether we have a relationship that's worth it to you, that is meaningful to you. That authentic connection piece. And that's why I think the therapeutic alliance research is as powerful as it is. Because there are very few venues in life where you're expected to come in and bare your soul to another human being. If you trust that person to take care of you and to take care of that information, and, you know, the depths of your psyche, your confidences, I mean, that's, that's the magic of what we get to do.

(00:19:32) Justin McMillen: I'm floored, because I was saying this yesterday. I mean, that was in my mind, too. So this is so good. I'm glad you're here. We're very aligned. And I know you're right, 'cause I see it all the time. Yeah, I have, I hire everybody, so this, like, [...], which is like, just like, you know, a six-hour course, and some of my counselors outperform, and perform, meaning that the people that they're working with stay sober long term and report having the most amazing experience. [...] And it's always like, how does this make sense, right? And, but it's, it's always, it's always the person that's capable of forming that kind of attachment, that bond, attachment. But that relationship is like this one-sided relationship that just gives to the patient, right? To be the best friend to that patient possible, without asking for anything... And the people that are best at doing that are the ones that, although... I've seen so many doctors and psychiatrists, and worked with somebody who's just based off education, and they're like the most amazing person I've ever worked with, and I, I can't say it's because they're so educated, you know. Which is not to knock education, or... You are lucky because you did both. You had the pathway to be a doctor and, and work, and so... but also bring this to it. And then you have the heart side of it, which is probably what more psychiatrists, you know, people should be doing. You know, probably what they want to do. So that was all of that.

(00:21:35) Britton Arey: Oh, that's a great question. I, that's, I think, the billion-dollar question, right? I think you, you hit on it really well, and you used the word attachment, which I...

(00:21:51) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:21:51) Britton Arey: Okay. I think a lot of what we're doing is re-forming attachments that were broken for patients early on in their lives. And, you know, there's a whole field, attachment theory, right? And that's part of what we, we find in our work, is a lot of dysregulation traces back to those early experiences where attachments should have been solid and safe for, for kids. And so part of our work is, you know, not just being there and letting them know that, you know, come hell or high water, we'll be the person that stays through, through whatever life throws at them, but also establishing a bond that's safe, that goes back and heals the original one that was destructive. Because that creates, to your earlier point, we were talking about dysregulation, you know, early childhood trauma can absolutely impact how the brain forms and the neurochemical environment in which it operates. So I feel like, you know, part of it is the work that you're doing, identifying some of the genetic polymorphisms and predispositions that can potentially set somebody up to have more dysregulation. And so there's, there's a part of it, as we said, it's the environment they're exposed to. Because that too creates very real effects on the physiology of brain health and function, where it looks for dopamine, where it looks for that regulation, self-soothing. So our ability to form that attachment, I feel like, is part of the, the therapeutic experience. They learn, you know, to... they learn that regulation. They learn somebody is not going to abandon them in their life.

(00:24:06) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah.

(00:24:07) Britton Arey: So whether it's a counselor or, or a sponsor, or, you know, or anyone, it doesn't matter. It's not about medication. It's the person who's willing to actually forge that bond with them.

(00:24:23) Justin McMillen: And I love that, original attachment. And this is... no, I don't, I don't have any questions for you, but there's a... I'm working with Noah, and he was the former head of LA County Mental Health. He's really doing a lot for homelessness, or is trying to. And he's in DC right now. He's doing work in DC. And he shared his vision with me. And it was about, there's a big push to do the largest peer recovery support network the country has ever seen. 10,000 people, minimally trained, to support people, right? And to sort of operationalize the sponsorship model that he has and use it for, you know, care and addiction treatment. So he's doing this paper with me, and I can publish it. But this is, that there are so many people in the world right now that have a tremendous amount of caring for others. And all we need to do is just figure out a way to operationalize that so we can let people know they matter. Right? Give people some sort of structure so that they have somebody. And I think it says, you know, you look at your life, the people that made an impact on you, it wasn't your doctors. It was, it was an uncle, that friend, that mentor. And so his vision is, how do we figure out a way to get people to operationalize this? My words. Just get connected in such a way that they suddenly start to care for each other, and just get back to that idea, to be able to matter to each other. And you would like him a lot. He's going to be here, but he's just, he's inspired. And he talked to me for about an hour, and he's constantly surfing, or he's in DC. [...] And then he gets in front of the charging stations and goes back in the water, and he's brilliant. But he's got this vision, and it's very aligned with this of yours. So the question I have for you is... I don't always do this, but I think in some cases on this show, I like to zoom out really big and, and really make this conversation bigger, because there are reasons why this exists in our society, right? You talk about attachment like this, and you're dealing with helping to fix that. I have a lot of people that show up at our centers around the country, and there, there are a lot of pain streams, and a lot of that is downstream effects of things that happened when they're younger. So what about our current society right now? Like, what do we need to do differently so that people can [...] at a young age? And what are we getting wrong right now?

(00:27:16) Britton Arey: Oh, there's so many, so many things about that. So I have, I have two kids, and [...].

(00:27:27) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah.

(00:27:28) Britton Arey: I just mean, we're open for this. I mean, first of all, kudos to you. You and I [...]. Right. But so I think being a parent really gets you to see exactly how broken society has become, and the, the inordinate amount of pressure that's on these kids, that I don't feel like we experienced growing up. I feel like there was so much more opportunity for that in-person connection. And so all of that... And part of the, the, the disconnect, I think, the fragmentation that I see is, is a lot of, you know, excessive technology, social media, the way that we're communicating with one another. I think the pendulum has swung so far to one side that it's leading to a fractionation of the, the connectedness that people used to share. And if they, if you're online with them, if you're, if you're playing a game with them, if you're on social media and you're connected, it's not the same thing. When the Grant Study talked about the bond, human connection, they weren't talking about a social media Instagram portfolio. And, you know, the million likes that people are trying to get. We're talking about being with somebody across from you, that you can reach out to, that you can have a real conversation with, and, you know, that in-person connection, that chemistry that you share with somebody. That's not the same thing as scrolling. So I feel like that's a big piece of where I see the, the breakdowns, the opportunities. You know, I'm, I'm the last person to demonize tech. My, my husband's been working in it for 22 years.

(00:29:54) Justin McMillen: Yes.

(00:29:54) Britton Arey: I'm very old. But he's, you know, he's in the video game space, so, you know, a creative director and wizard.

(00:30:05) Justin McMillen: Yes.

(00:30:05) Britton Arey: He used to be... for a short amount of time, he was actually involved... He was a director for Pokémon Go. So he's been on some, some projects that I'm sure a lot of people know. And he's, he's very good at... he's one of the first ones, extremely well read, knows everything about how promising technology is, and that it has the opportunity to really revolutionize our lives for the better. And I don't disagree with him, and his... His, his games are always fun. They're not violent. They're, you know, they're about lessons, they're about engaging people through immersive play. And, you know, I have brainstormed quite a bit about how you can use the, the gamification concept to engage and inspire people to do things that are really good, right? Like working out, like giving them [...] to do good things for themselves. Like, you level up if you, say, you [...].

(00:31:15) Justin McMillen: Oura Ring [...] today?

(00:31:17) Britton Arey: Did you really?

(00:31:18) Justin McMillen: I, I'm not, but, you know, so that was a big deal for me. So I was like, yeah, it's like I'm in the 60s.

(00:31:26) Britton Arey: Okay.

(00:31:27) Justin McMillen: Which is not good, right? So, yeah. Gamification, you're trying to beat your own score.

(00:31:34) Britton Arey: And I feel like there... So I think there's more immersion that, that you can do. And of course it comes from a very, highly, a very playful approach. And so we're the last house to ban tech, like, we have, you know, we have had, for his research, every console for gaming. So I know way more about games than I would have known had I not married him. But I, I appreciate technology. I appreciate the opportunities to connect people from other parts of the country, from different countries. I think it allows for, you know, [...], but I think it also has [...]. And that's where we haven't done a really good job of figuring out where those lines are, and how you go from, we can really use this for good, to now we've, we've allowed it to segment and separate people, and our kids' development, and our mental health, and our, our self-esteem.

(00:32:52) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I think about this a lot in this conversation. So, but it was in the same vein, a conversation today in one of the meetings. We're talking about AI and how rapidly things are changing, and not promoting, whatever, or not. But sorry, I'm [...]. So I have no thoughts or opinions about that. But the idea that the, the problem... and not looking at the person with the trigger, right? Like, we have to consider that these things exist. And instead of saying, hey, this is a way for me... I can't handle myself with it, right? Which is like people with phones, they want someone to take them away for them, right? Which is like the most un-American thing ever, right? It's like we've been given all this freedom. This, this country's built to be free. Okay, so then we get more abundance, more stuff. I think what we should be talking about is how do we learn to interact with that stuff so it doesn't destroy us and it enhances our lives? We can be better, right? And that's the real issue that I think about a lot, is what are we missing in society that can allow us to think about how we interact with, engage with freedoms, not, you know, control the freedoms. Otherwise the Founding Fathers were wrong. Like, so did that, that expression of, you know, they meant freedom, and trust it. They're good, they won't destroy themselves. Well, it kind of looks like with a lot of freedom, that's what's happening, is we're destroying ourselves, and people are sort of begging for it to be taken away. Which is crazy, because that's the only solution they see, frankly.

(00:34:36) Britton Arey: Right. And no demonization of technology... and they did this in Australia, right? Social media.

(00:34:46) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:34:46) Britton Arey: And I'm not, I don't know too much. But they, you know, it was, again, this idea that... and it's being promoted here as well.

(00:34:59) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:34:59) Britton Arey: Which I don't fully agree or disagree with, necessarily. That social media is causing problems for, for kids, especially. And Australia implemented a social media ban for, for kids. And, you know, so what happened is, you know, kids are smart. And they found ways around it. So the, the ID checks, verifications, they found ways around them, right? Those kids are freaking smart.

(00:35:33) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:35:33) Britton Arey: You, you take something away from them, they're going to find another way to do that in some capacity.

(00:35:40) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah, right. This is off limits.

(00:35:43) Britton Arey: Yes, that's exactly right.

(00:35:45) Justin McMillen: [...]

(00:35:45) Britton Arey: Yeah. But I think your, your point is so, so brilliant. It's so well, well taken. And that's where the conversation needs to shift, which is, the phone isn't the demon. Technology isn't the demon. Even social media by itself isn't the big bad. It's not the evil. It's the, the issue that few people are actually willing to address, look at, is why are we turning to these? What's, what's not working for us? What are we missing that we're using these things to fill those holes, instead of the people that are in our world? And that's the question. The better question is, is what are kids getting from this that they're not getting from, from their homes, from their environments, from their lives? What, what is it about, you know, 100 likes on social media, other than the, you know, popularity and other means, like, which are not, are not trivial, but why are they finding that in other places, and what's going on with the self-regulation? It's so much easier to say, it's this, get rid of this, and kids will be fine. No, they won't.

(00:37:11) Justin McMillen: So. Right. Yeah, they won't, they won't. You have to go downstream... upstream, upstream, right?

(00:37:19) Britton Arey: That was like... yeah.

(00:37:21) Justin McMillen: Yeah, upstream. Yeah.

(00:37:23) Britton Arey: [...] earlier, and look at root cause analysis, right?

(00:37:28) Justin McMillen: Have you read this book? You know this book, Tribe?

(00:37:32) Britton Arey: I've heard of it. Yeah, that's one.

(00:37:38) Justin McMillen: Tribe. Tribe's message is about human connection. It's in this... it's really about the military, because he was a wartime journalist. You may... oh, sorry. George Clooney, in the movie...

(00:37:53) Britton Arey: Yeah.

(00:37:53) Justin McMillen: He wrote that. He's a big writer, he's a good guy. Okay. But the book basically talks about how humans... it's about human connection we've lost over time. And he, he frames it as a... there's one way for how kids... we, we put kids in their own bed, and then we give them, you know, like, the children, like, cry it out. And we give them, like, a blanket or a bear, and we say, like, that's their soothing thing. And, and then we all... and I was raised this way. My parents are great, I'm not saying bad. But then we wonder why humans believe that material things are going to make them happy, right? And maybe if we focus on how we attach to our children at that young age, we solve those problems. Then you get this thing, right? So, like, how do you do that when we can't afford to live our lives? Both parents are working, and there's a lot of systemic challenges to this. But one of the issues is that we sort of left the kid, I think. Not, not, nobody did it... it was like we all, we had to work. And maybe we didn't consider the fact that the next generation wasn't learning how to attach. And maybe that's causing people to not know how to... They're looking for things to attach to that aren't other people, because they don't know how.

(00:39:30) Britton Arey: I think that was really, really well said. And I think that, you know, this concept of, like, the blankie and the bear, that's the transitional object.

(00:39:41) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:39:41) Britton Arey: Right. You're... again, kids, like, [...] people, right?

(00:39:45) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:39:46) Britton Arey: That was a book that, you know... I get the idea that, you know, potentially misrepresenting attachment, right, can, you know, can be a misplaced prioritization. I think that's the bigger, bigger point. I think you're not wrong. I think in the, the quest for parents to provide for their kids... and, you know, my husband and I are both working parents, and we do spend quite a bit of time trying to, to do our best. And for the people who are depending on each of us. And in our quest to do so, have we forgotten that our primary responsibility is really to, to our kids, and to helping them learn what healthy attachment should be? And not in the in-between times, but, but always. And I feel like that's where the... it's so much easier to be like, nope, it's... yeah, take the phone away, take social media away. Let's, you know, like, [...] your house. Yeah. I love your point about freedom, right? That's... I don't think restricting our freedoms is the answer. I think the root cause is, like, is that... and really doing that analysis, a hard look at ourselves and where we may have taken a wrong turn, and giving us an opportunity. Because that's what, you know, I feel about therapy, right, is, is you get the opportunity to examine your life. If it's where you want to be, and if not, of course, correct.

(00:41:33) Justin McMillen: Can we do that as a society? And that's why we have this conversation. We should, we should... I, that's why I love doing this, because I get to talk to people about these ideas, and, and yeah, it's amazing to, you know... I think this is a thing on all of us as parents, like, in the matter of time, do we do what we need to do?

(00:41:53) Britton Arey: And it's okay. I don't think we need to feel bad. We just need to think about how to make things better. You know, I remember, I was at a conference, it was an integrated mental health conference at UCLA years ago. And they were talking about the importance of attachment, and especially, like, the parents' bond in the first couple of years. And we've always known that, you know. I was taught that the, the bond in the first year, especially the first couple of years, is so integral to the foundation of how a child feels safe in their world. And then the research, the presenter, the, the presentation went on to say that, you know, it's not just those first couple years. It's the years after that. And I'm thinking, oh, crap, that's when I went back to work, you know, that's when...

(00:42:58) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:42:59) Britton Arey: That's when I was busy building my company and trying to, you know, hire on the psychiatrists to, to make this group practice, and to espouse the type of psychiatry that we wanted to practice out here. And that's what I was... I was not an absentee, but I certainly wasn't a, a mom during that period.

(00:43:19) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:43:20) Britton Arey: I really... obviously my kids, right, they obviously are, they're the classic shrink kids who are going to be so screwed up, and I'm sure they're on a couch, and that's fine, because they, you know, should be there. But kids, you know, no exception. And then they said something that I liked, which is, it's never too late. It's, it's... you don't get to a point in which the attachment, that bond, fails to be corrected or fails to be instrumental. And so if you've got teenagers or college-aged kids, you can still forge the bond that they need to feel safe and secure in their world. And so, like, I have two teenagers back home, and I am going to make sure that they feel safe and attached, and are 100%, like, when Mom says, like, hey, you want to hang out?

(00:44:26) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:44:26) Britton Arey: Oh, what do you mean? Exactly. Like, why do we compromise? Why do we let it go?

(00:44:32) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's so good. It's such a nice thing to hear, because I think that, again, it's a haunting thing for a lot of us. And I think... yeah, I mean, I was just talking with my brother about... my brother, my business partner. Right. We were talking about this yesterday. What's the balance with time and kids? And, and then it was like, we're talking about this little clip we saw in a podcast. And this guy, a military guy, I saw more of him, that was crazy. And he was saying, his son's six, and he was on The Diary of a CEO. And he says, you know, it's me and this, like, my son. Like, there's never been a person in your life who wants to hang out with you more than your kids. And they don't, they don't want any fucking [...] with you. And he's just sitting there, he just wants to play trains, and he's looking at me, and there's nothing in the world that he wants more than that. And in my life, nobody will want me to be there more than he does. And he's like, laid down, and I'm trying to play trains, like, I'm doing it, but I'm not there. He's like, I'm on my phone or doing my thing, you know? It's Sean Ryan. He's a huge, huge podcaster. And he's like, that haunts me, because it's not going to be forever. He's going to grow up, and he's not going to... I mean, he's not going to care the same way. My brother, yes, like, he's more emotional about this, and I... he gets really... he's very... he's got a huge heart, and he's talking about his kids. It's like, finding that balance, you know? Kind of, take over the world. All this stuff doesn't matter. I mean, compared to our children. And... but at the same time, like, we're just hanging out with them, that's it? We're really teaching them, like, you know, we want them to go and try to do something, right? So they're seeing Mom out doing stuff and trying things and creating this practice and bringing this new way of doing psychiatry to our community, and bringing doctors together that have the same philosophy you share. So that means... you're saying that that's a big deal. And are they your daughters or sons?

(00:46:43) Britton Arey: [...]

(00:46:43) Justin McMillen: Okay. Your kids are going to be like, my mom was on this mission to change this thing. And, and I got to watch that. And that's probably going to be part of what drives them to do what they're doing. So raising your kids is modeling, you know, so that's how I...

(00:47:00) Britton Arey: Yes, that's very true, right? Because you're there, you know. Not only are you their first, right, you're also their, their earliest inspiration. And seeing you follow your passions and do something meaningful...

(00:47:15) Justin McMillen: Absolutely.

(00:47:15) Britton Arey: ...gives them that same fire, that, that they're both capable of doing something that could change... And I, I absolutely think that's, you know, that's kind of the original, you know, existential psychotherapy, right? The fundamental tensions that we experience as human beings bring people into, into our office, into our practice, in psychiatry. You know, Yalom says it falls into four main existential issues. So one is death, right? Fear of death, and facing your mortality. Questions that can come up, and people feeling really anxious regarding [...], when the underlying real issue is that you're afraid that at some point, you know, something... And when you grapple with that, which sometimes is later in life, and sometimes it's, you know, very early, that creates symptoms that sometimes you miss the deeper meaning of, if you don't explore that, right?

(00:48:30) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Like I said, that would be a huge factor in anybody's... deepest part of our psyche.

(00:48:38) Britton Arey: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think it's very... So the second one was isolation, right? So the idea that, even if you're connected to people, fundamentally our experience is ours and ours alone.

(00:48:53) Justin McMillen: So, so the experience of the person...

(00:48:56) Britton Arey: So, exactly. The experience of, of being a person, and knowing that what you confront, you confront through your own eyes and by yourself, ultimately, right? And that, that... people talk about this a lot, feeling alone when surrounded by people, or alone in a crowded room, or alone despite having all these friends and all these people, but not feeling really connected with them. That experience of isolation is terrifying. Right. So having that existential, you know, kind of... a common complaint is, you know, I can't really articulate it, I just feel really... I feel very isolated. I feel very much apart from all the people that I'm surrounded by, and I don't know why. So that, that's another one. Meaning, right? Finding meaning and purpose in life. You know, you hit the nail on the head, but a lot of people's existence, you know, even if you define yourself as, you're, you're really after changing the way substance abuse is treated, and mental health, and homelessness, and, and helping people who've served our country, which, you know, are all huge, noble missions. But your individual why you're here, what your life is about, you know, that might be totally different, related to, you know, your kids and your, you know, your own sense of humanity, and, and importance to the next generation, or, you know, all the interrelated... that could be your, your sense of meaning and purpose in life. And some people, I think, go through their whole lives without ever examining what their fundamental purpose is, and where they assign meaning. I think that leaves them with a void, and I think creates a lot of anxiety and depression, to not have that.

(00:51:13) Justin McMillen: Just when you do the social, spiritual...

(00:51:16) Britton Arey: And spiritual, spiritual things. Yeah.

(00:51:20) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah.

(00:51:21) Britton Arey: Frankl is another one. Are you familiar with his work? So he, his brand of, like, Irvin Yalom kind of existential psychotherapy, [...] was responsible for logotherapy, which, you know, you being familiar with it, right, is, is how he survived being in a concentration camp, right? Which was him finding a reserve of, of meaning in the most horrific of circumstances, that allowed him, his psyche, to be resilient enough to not just come out of that horrific experience, of that trauma, but to come out, write a book, and pioneer a field of meaning-focused therapy for people. That is, logotherapy is the term for it. And a lot of people are practicing logotherapy because of him, and trying to help people develop that resilience through infusing their lives [...].

(00:52:31) Justin McMillen: Can you tell the audience, like, a little bit more about logotherapy and what it is?

(00:52:38) Britton Arey: Yeah. So logotherapy is, it's, it's really a direct descendant of existentialism. So it's the idea that finding meaning even in your struggles, finding purpose in, in even life's challenges, can give it a point, to what you're experiencing, that's bigger than just the fact you're in a shitstorm right now, that you're struggling, right? That's, that's not the point. It's seeing a bigger purpose to why you might do this. There's another side that, like, your pain has context, and it's, it's bigger meaning.

(00:53:25) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:53:26) Britton Arey: So that's the, the kind of the, the 30,000-foot view of what logotherapy is about. And that's, you know, very reflective of his own personal experience, and how he was able to survive brutal conditions by, by understanding that there was a broader point, a broader purpose to his life beyond his pain.

(00:53:57) Justin McMillen: That's so good. I think what's nice about that is, when I get into this, [...], it's like, victim role or archetypes, it shows up, and it's suddenly the whole world is against me. And the way to do that is to say, well, there's, there's meaning in all of these events, these things that happen. And so, you mentioned [...], and, and because of that, I... and this now, or here's the meaning I found in pain, and I'm not going to erase it. And understand, and understand how it's, like, colored me or shaped me into who I am. And then, through different contexts, use it in a way that helps the world.

(00:54:49) Britton Arey: Yeah, that's amazing.

(00:54:51) Justin McMillen: Crazy that some of the most terrible places, to find things that could change everything.

(00:54:59) Britton Arey: There's very little good that came of that time period. Certainly, something good came out of that, it's beautiful.

(00:55:08) Justin McMillen: You know, you're right, like, horrific.

(00:55:11) Britton Arey: It's like, yeah, I, from my perspective, honestly, I don't know if I would have the resilience to go through something like that and come out the other side like he did.

(00:55:25) Justin McMillen: And so, yeah... sorry.

(00:55:27) Britton Arey: Tell me, please.

(00:55:28) Justin McMillen: It's just crazy, because there's nobody really in the world, like, if you... let's say you're dealing with something absolutely horrific as a clinician and you want to make it okay for them. It's really terrible. Is it okay for them? There's always going to be, like, I was a kid, I was raped, I was this. You know, when you have somebody that's been through something like he was, and they create a formula or system for it, that person can never be made wrong, because they did it. So anybody, it's like, I have to fight this demon, this thing that happened, and now I'm going to go to this person. That was the worst situation ever, and he figured it out, which means that I too can make meaning of this absolutely horrible thing, that the world really is [...] the meaning of. It's, right, like, this person did this to me, or this thing happened. So, yeah, I've never really talked about him on this show, or talked about it much, but he's an extraordinary person. He gave a gift to everybody that's been through incredibly terrible things. Like, going to the worst place, finding meaning, and then they say, what the hell? They came out and they're like, way out.

(00:56:43) Britton Arey: Yeah, crazy. And that's, I think, just so, so awesome. I think it's so easy, you know, to fall into victim mentality, that this happened to me, now it's who I am. I am, you know, I'm a used person, I'm broken. You know, I will never be the same. It's this person's fault. And it is... people, I think, kind of give up on themselves. And I think the idea is that, sure, that, you know, there are a lot of things that happen. There are a lot of really terrible circumstances, and a lot of trauma that, that happens. I'm not diminishing anybody's pain, but I think there is, there is another way to look at that, which is, you know, not necessarily just as a survivor, as somebody whose life is, you know, irrevocably changed, but not necessarily for the worse. Like, what if you developed a resilience because of that? You were, you were the one who went through that, instead of collapsing in on yourself. What if you come out the other end stronger, and a gift to other people, because you make meaning from what happened to you?

(00:58:13) Justin McMillen: That's... yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's absolutely right. So, yeah. You said there's four... I think there's four things.

(00:58:24) Britton Arey: Yeah.

(00:58:25) Justin McMillen: So I just, I love that. No, it was, it was the...

(00:58:30) Britton Arey: It was me, because it was a situation, and I am like you. I'm sorry.

(00:58:36) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:58:37) Britton Arey: No, I just wrote something, so I should, like, I literally should know. Oh. My head.

(00:58:45) Justin McMillen: I'm, I'm writing the thread that I'm thinking about, which is, I think, maybe you gave a clue at the time, but there's alone. That's the scariest thing, because no one is, you know, with somebody else... Isolation is like this, the experience of being alone. Was the one... it was meaning? Meaning, I guess, it's like you tie that back to people. I had a whole thought on that one. And then maybe the fourth one...

(00:59:17) Britton Arey: I don't know, it's like I literally just...

(00:59:21) Justin McMillen: You look... yeah.

(00:59:23) Britton Arey: I'm so sorry, but I, it's important enough to, to do. Let's see, it was... Oh, this is a good one. For you especially. It's freedom and responsibility.

(00:59:44) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:59:44) Britton Arey: So it's the idea that... That ultimately... and we were just kind of talking about this, that we're accountable to ourselves for our own lives. That it's so much easier to blame somebody else for how your life turns out than to take responsibility, that you have the ultimate power to determine what happens in the course of your life. And, you know, all of these existential themes are, are foundational... That's why the, the four cause that existential, you know, kind of angst. Because when the human condition is, you know, that, that we're mortal, ultimately, it's... we go through it alone, and we are that alone. It's that we're responsible for figuring out the meaning of our own lives. And ultimately, we're accountable for what happens in our lives. All of those themes are terrifying.

(01:00:55) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:00:55) Britton Arey: When you, when you actually... they push them down. No... Do you want to think about death? Being, being ultimately alone? Who wants to think about meaninglessness? Nobody wants to think about the weight of what freedom brings. You know, that's... it's an awesome privilege, a huge responsibility.

(01:01:18) Justin McMillen: So, so let me ask you, is this the foundation for the way that you practice therapy? You use that as your... are you, would you consider yourself an existential psychotherapist, psychiatrist?

(01:01:33) Britton Arey: Yeah, I, I definitely have an existentially informed practice.

(01:01:38) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:01:39) Britton Arey: It's, you know, I, I consider what I do more biopsychosocial-spiritual. So I'm a fan of the fact that, I believe the brain's an organ like all the other organs. It can go awry. I think there can be chemical shifts that can make people really [...] and emotional. I think there are things, but it's... So I subscribe to the biological model. I believe in the psychological model. I think that the way we understand ourselves and our world and our place in it very much has to do with how we choose to relate to others and how we navigate our experiences. I, I believe that there's a lot in the psychological lens, which is the mission of therapy in general. And I incorporate a lot of different approaches, whether it's behavioral, or psychodynamic, or existential, or... I feel like there's so many good models, and you recruit different approaches at different times, in different circumstances, for different patients.

(01:02:53) Justin McMillen: Sure. So, yeah. How much time... I don't know how much you want to talk about your, your practice, what you do. But if anything I say, you just say, I won't get into that. But you, when you sit down with someone, how much time does it take to build an understanding, and then choose which direction? Or are you kind of always picking and choosing? And then whatever the issue is that week, or that month, or that quarter that you're working on, how do you choose which direction you're gonna go?

(01:03:25) Britton Arey: That's such a great question. I don't think I've ever been asked that question before, which is amazing, in almost 20 years of practice. And the answer that I would give is, I'm constantly reformulating my understanding of my patients. And I, I'm so lucky that I have some patients that started with me when I started my practice.

(01:03:53) Justin McMillen: Oh, wow.

(01:03:54) Britton Arey: So I've had patients that are still with me for, you know, going on 20 years now. And it's been this amazing long journey of seeing them through growing up, and, and marriages, and illness, and all sorts of different things. And I, my understanding of them shifts every time we confront a challenge. And so, you know, I think we all get trained in, in medicine and in psychiatry that you do an intake, [...]. So you do your workup and you come up with a diagnosis and treatment plan, and that informs the rest of your, your time with your patient. And I've come to believe that you can get an initial idea, maybe, the first visit, but rarely, for me... I feel like really understanding takes, takes time. And I've slowly started to give myself permission to take that time with my patients, and allow myself to not have all the answers by the first visit, or the third, or sometimes the 30th. Because my understanding is to evolve, the deeper we go, peeling the layers. Right? That's kind of a classic analogy for what therapy is, you've got [...], and it's kind of true, right? So you've got, you know, more and more layers. The more your patient invites it, the more they share with you, the longer the experience you get with them. And so really getting to know them takes time. I have [...] no idea what I'm dealing with, and experience certainly helps with that. But every person is so different. And that's the other big... as well. The other thing that has informed my practice is one of the titles of the chapters in The Gift of Therapy: you make a new therapy for every patient. And I didn't really understand what he was saying about that until I started working with people. I realized there is no one approach. No depressed person is just a depressed person. It's this person who happens to be depressed right now. And what works for one person with those same symptoms is not going to work for another, simply because they're so different. And so my brain, during, you can see what's going on in there.

(01:07:02) Justin McMillen: Oh, hamsters on wheels.

(01:07:04) Britton Arey: Yeah. But it's so fast, smoke coming out of my ears, because I'm, I'm really trying to conceptualize and reinvent therapy for that person, for me, and then reinvent that every single time I'm with them.

(01:07:21) Justin McMillen: This is just... yeah. So I, you know, I read this, I [...] and I, I, I don't... yeah. That's... I think that shows that, you know, you understand how complex humans are. So, I mean, they're pretty complicated creatures. And I think... how, how much is intuition for you?

(01:07:49) Britton Arey: It's going to be more, you know... I think you start out after training with very little of that, and very little of the trust that you learn to place in your gut. And I think over time you start to learn that you have... all of us, we have a radar that we, I think, often learn to ignore, because it's so disconnected from ourselves. And learning to trust that, learning to listen to yourself when you go, [...]. It feels kind of like this, you know, [...]. And learning that, getting better at reinforcing that, finding through experience that, that, that little voice, that feeling, is actually really powerful. And then helping patients really start trusting theirs, I think, is, is part of the experience.

(01:08:56) Justin McMillen: Do you think it's honed through logic and reasoning over time, and then it becomes automatic? Or do you believe it's coming from somewhere else?

(01:09:05) Britton Arey: I'm not sure I quite understand that.

(01:09:07) Justin McMillen: So, like, the idea... the intuition could be that you're just picking up things, signals, that are not even really being logically processed, but you just seem to know what to do based on reading all these cues that you're not even really consciously aware of. That would be one idea. The other idea would be, I've done this, you know, so many times, it's so automatic for me. I know exactly what the person does, that, that... so many times that it's now just my DNA, and I know where to go. I don't have to think about it.

(01:09:40) Britton Arey: So yes is the answer. No, no, it's both. It's definitely both. It's, it's... I feel like there's so much to the idea that we have a subconscious, right? There are things that we act on for reasons we don't really fully understand. And there are signals that we get in ways that we're not even able to perceive. And so learning to trust those feelings and instincts, I think, is one, and the other is the muscle memory. Yeah. You see enough of a certain type, and you, you do get comfortable with learning how to approach a certain type. And that becomes part of what the intuition is.

(01:10:27) Justin McMillen: All right.

(01:10:28) Britton Arey: So I feel like the answer is yes. It's both.

(01:10:32) Justin McMillen: And... yeah. And I mean, with somebody with your... and people don't know you. Britton, Dr. Arey.

(01:10:42) Britton Arey: Right.

(01:10:42) Justin McMillen: That's either one... I respond. Oh my gosh, Arey. Very... okay, okay, okay. You were the youngest ever graduate of UCI. You're definitely... you're a brain. You're smart, very, very smart person.

(01:10:59) Britton Arey: Oh.

(01:11:00) Justin McMillen: Where does that come from? Were you just high-driven as a kid, or things come easy to you? How did you graduate high school at 16? Med school at age 19?

(01:11:13) Britton Arey: Yes.

(01:11:14) Justin McMillen: You finished college in three years? Two years?

(01:11:18) Britton Arey: So really, I didn't, I didn't really graduate from high school or college. I just went straight from high school after my junior year to college, and left my junior year of college and went straight to med school. So I have no high school diploma and no college degree.

(01:11:46) Justin McMillen: Any...

(01:11:49) Britton Arey: Right. I have... so we explain how to tell that, like, I didn't graduate high school.

(01:11:56) Justin McMillen: Oh, come on.

(01:11:57) Britton Arey: And then I got an MBA and nothing else. So the funniest part of that is, having my own existential crisis at the age of, you know... like, crises happen, right? When I was at med school, which they did not let me leave early, graduating from.

(01:12:18) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(01:12:19) Britton Arey: So smart on their part. But, you know, I beelined so quickly through my education because I knew that, I knew what I wanted to do in my life. Doctor. I wanted to help people. And at 23, found that I was really not emotionally prepared for the demands that were being put on me, versus kind of where, where I was at that time. And so, literally had to leave residency at that point, and see a psychiatrist for myself, in therapy, and had an amazing therapist who really helped me explore what... like, why I had gotten to be an MD at the age of...

(01:13:25) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:13:25) Britton Arey: ...23. And a lot of that was, you know, my, my personal story. I, my, my dad was a doctor. He was a surgeon. And he passed away when I was very young. And I remember it was my mom and I growing up. And I remember thinking that it was so hard to try and, and cope with, with my sadness, and watch my mom with hers. And I didn't want anybody to have to go through what I went through, if I could help it. And I knew that, that medicine was the key to being able to alleviate suffering. You know, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I remember thinking about neurosurgery for quite some time, because that felt really important to me, to help people who are struggling with, with brain conditions. At that point, being young, you just feel like if you go into medical school, whatever that is... Right. And then it wasn't until I got there, I was like, nope, that is not for me. I do not want to open people's heads up and play with their brains physically. I just want to connect with them and try to figure out ways to alleviate their suffering. And that was my, my path. But my father passed away when he was 40. So he went through med school and residency, which was grueling for a surgeon. He was an otolaryngologist. And he started, and then just when he kind of made it through, in his practice, he got cancer and passed away. So I think in my head...

(01:15:31) Justin McMillen: I'm sorry.

(01:15:32) Britton Arey: Thank you.

(01:15:33) Justin McMillen: Very young, too.

(01:15:35) Britton Arey: Yeah, that was... I was [...]. So I don't wish that on, on anybody. But...

(01:15:47) Justin McMillen: He would be so proud of you, though. Holy hell. I, he would be like, my daughter... Imagine he is somewhere watching and saw you finish school at 23, blaze through the way. Did you just say, yep, that's good? And that makes me feel good. I [...] feeling, and feeling really sad also for you. Was he... I mean, I believe he's watching. So I think he's probably just like, yeah...

(01:16:22) Britton Arey: I do, actually. I do. And he, he fueled a large part of what I do with my life. So I owe him a tremendous amount. You know, it was really hard to lose him when I did, but he was the inspiration to become what I did, and use that pain, we talked about with Frankl, that, that tragedy, that trauma, to do something, to serve others. Like, that ended up being my meaning, that, that [...]. I didn't know it at the time I went through it. But as I, you know, did my own therapy, and, and trying to understand, why was I so intent on getting through everything as quickly as I possibly could? I didn't want what happened to him to happen to me, which was so, so much of my life to [...] the long experience of what it is to become a doctor, right? All the school and all the training, all those years, to be cut down right before I got to do anything to, to help. And so, as quickly as I could, I really did that by that time. So when I was in high school, I, I had the opportunity after my junior year to apply for a program at USC, the Resident Honors Program, and it allowed you to do your first year of college and your senior year of high school in the same year. And applied to it, and it was a lot. I had test scores and National Merit Scholar, and it was... they accepted me and gave me a full ride to USC, which I wouldn't have been able to attend otherwise. So I'm very, very, very grateful for, for that. And my heart is absolutely with the USC Trojans, for, for... not that I'm on that campus, but, but I, I owe a lot to that experience. And [...] and all the scholarships that I was given. Just, again, so blessed to have that experience. And then, again, I knew I wanted to go into medicine, and had a friend of mine, a close friend, who graduated in three years, actually. He graduated from SC in three years. And I was like, well, he's going to go to med school. I'm like, I should be able to do that. And so I, you know, I figured, right, if I don't get in, I'll just finish college. It didn't make sense... I, you know, college, and I was there for free, so I probably should have had four years in college. But I applied my junior year, got into several schools, and I didn't really...

(01:19:47) Justin McMillen: They let people apply before you even finish?

(01:19:51) Britton Arey: I mean, you can. It's the thing. Evidently, I just... they never closed the loophole, right? After me, never again. But, you know, you practice, and you take the MCAT, and you do the things you're supposed to do. I was really hard in college for GPA, so I, you know... and I went... so I didn't, like, I did... I did things like... I was completely absurd, but I was the only nerd. So, like, college was amazing, but, but I really wanted to go to med school. So I, I applied, got into UCI, and I ended up leaving college to, to go to med school, and that was at 19. I was 19. So two years...

(01:20:48) Justin McMillen: And you were done?

(01:20:49) Britton Arey: No, four years.

(01:20:50) Justin McMillen: Oh, 23.

(01:20:51) Britton Arey: Yeah.

(01:20:51) Justin McMillen: Sorry, you're so early. That's making sense to me, but I'm doing the math. All right. I saw that. Yeah. Okay. So you graduated, you're made at this point. You have life experience, but you're like, well, I just charged through all this. So then some therapy, then this...

(01:21:14) Britton Arey: Did my first year of residency at Cedars-Sinai. And so I loved that so much. It was like, I was so excited to be there. I wanted to learn about the human psyche. So that's what really drew me to Cedars. But after I, I did a year in residency there, and then their, their program at that point was really struggling. They... ...had four residents per year, which is a small program for residency, versus, by contrast, UCLA has like 14. So four people manning the entire hospital for, you know, each, each year, and each took call roughly every 2 or 3 nights.

(01:22:11) Justin McMillen: So you're just not sleeping? Yeah.

(01:22:14) Britton Arey: Every other night.

(01:22:15) Justin McMillen: You're earning, you're earning your, your badges.

(01:22:20) Britton Arey: Yes. Yeah. Well, you know, and I know you're as well researched as I am on the effects of sleep deprivation.

(01:22:29) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:22:29) Britton Arey: I mean, I was borderline crazy at the end of that first year. Yeah. And then the [...] of patient care. And, you know, I learned my field and my craft, and I... But, right, I think I literally had a meltdown, rather than [...] frequent call, either way. But I, I've done the... and so maybe I just made a horrible decision with, with my life, right? I didn't know what I wanted to do, and I wasn't prepared to do anything else. So that's what I learned. I can work at McDonald's without a high school diploma.

(01:23:15) Justin McMillen: Yeah, well, then the thing would have been...

(01:23:19) Britton Arey: I mean, yeah, that's all I was qualified to do.

(01:23:23) Justin McMillen: Sure, sure. Doctor, you went so fast, did you even consider anything other than... you burned the boats. That was... you went all in.

(01:23:35) Britton Arey: Yeah. One thing, that's, that's... I had, I had no transferable skills.

(01:23:41) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(01:23:41) Britton Arey: So it was, it was doctor or bust. And then I realized, doctor, and what? And I, in therapy, kind of did, you know, kind of a personal inventory, and realized that I was missing pieces of myself that I kind of [...]. So prior to, in high school, I did theater. So I really made a huge amount of friends, and my social circle was filled with a lot of people outside of my high school that did a lot of shows. Not in my school, but community theater, which was an amazing experience. And I got an agent, that was Hollywood, and it was, it was a thing. And then when I... I loved it, but when I went to college, I had to make a decision.

(01:24:46) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:24:46) Britton Arey: I was going to go for medicine, or was going to go on a bunch of auditions. And [...] wasn't really done in the middle of LA. But, you know, it's just, it's... it wasn't possible to, to bridge the gap between what it took to commit to being an actor and what I needed to do to commit to wanting to pursue a career in medicine. I chose, I chose that path. And so I abandoned all of the things that had made me who I was at the time, and left them behind. And it reminded me about those parts of myself, right, myself that I missed. I missed being with people on a peer basis. I missed, like, presenting. I missed interaction, interacting. I missed the performance. And I missed kind of the, the really high-level, like, strategy stuff that you don't really do, you're, you know, just doing frontline work.

(01:25:59) Justin McMillen: Which is... right.

(01:26:01) Britton Arey: Not on your [...]. Right. So my therapist recommended at the time that I read What Color Is Your Parachute?, for, you know, anybody who's kind of exploring career options. And I started looking online at job descriptions, things that sounded like they might be interesting to me.

(01:26:26) Justin McMillen: It's so crazy. But you think about how people in their 20s are going to medical school, and, you know, and then, you know, at 23 you're like, yeah, I should do this? Or it's weird. I mean, it's very unusual.

(01:26:44) Britton Arey: And yeah, I think it was, you know, you talked about crafting. I am the poster child for, for how you can do that. And so I, I took my therapist's advice, and I looked online, and the descriptions that I found that I really liked were things like, find this in medicine, right? Help design drugs in the future, or help with branding. And, like, be a brand ambassador for, for a medical device firm. And, and a lot of the job descriptions I really liked didn't really need an MD, but they did need an MBA. So, okay, well, I'm totally not qualified. I need this. And my therapist was like, you, you know what? Just apply, and just see what happens. And I, I did, and I got, I guess, calls from people who were like, you're totally not qualified for this job, obviously, but it's so interesting. An MD who wants to do something in marketing? Like, how cool is that? Let's bring you out here. And Eli Lilly was one of those, and they flew me out to Indianapolis, like, I mean, Indianapolis, and brought me in to the headquarters, and really showed me a path for myself in marketing and product planning for drugs that were going to be launched ten years in the future. And they wanted to put me in a position to inform medications in neuroscience.

(01:28:37) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(01:28:37) Britton Arey: So, so cool. And they offered to put me through an executive program.

(01:28:44) Justin McMillen: Very cool.

(01:28:45) Britton Arey: So they took a chance on me, and, like, so, so incredible. I have a very different opinion of the pharmaceutical industry than a lot of my colleagues. I met some of the, the brightest people, who are working to make the, the medications that are going to launch in ten years.

(01:29:13) Justin McMillen: I'm like, wow, that's crazy.

(01:29:15) Britton Arey: I mean, I was in a room with the chemists, biologists, who worked on some of the medications for psychiatry. I mean, it was... I was literally in meetings where I felt that if something happened to that room, and, and, you know, it didn't exist anymore, the, the, the entire country would go down, and [...] in that space, because they were so bright and so good at what they did. And being part of that multidisciplinary team, being able to be the voice of the market and doing that, certainly something you can't [...]. It was amazing. And then [...], and, and being away from my family, and especially my mom, was no longer an option for me. So I, I came back to California.

(01:30:18) Justin McMillen: So you were, you were in [...] during that?

(01:30:23) Britton Arey: Oh, no, I was in [...].

(01:30:25) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:30:26) Britton Arey: I [...] Indy, and then all the planes got grounded during 9/11. And I, I knew I wanted to go home. And through, all, bouts of cancer... when I was in medical school, she had primary breast cancer, surgery, chemotherapy, was doing really well. And then cancer [...] with her surgery, and, and so, it was enough. You know, I was coming home once a month to do my MBA program at UCI. I had a health care executive program. They flew, flew me back to Orange County, which is where I'm from. And my mom and my fiancé at the time... But after 9/11, I, I couldn't [...] planes anymore, and... And I didn't want to be that far, so that defined my priorities. So they found a position for me locally, and I did three more years with Lilly.

(01:31:42) Justin McMillen: So the neuroscience...

(01:31:44) Britton Arey: The leading thought leaders out here in psychiatry, which was tremendous. But decided that I really missed my purpose, which was helping people on the front lines. So I reapplied to finish my residency. Stanford and UCLA. But my, my husband at the time had a job in Los Angeles, and so did...

(01:32:12) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:32:13) Britton Arey: But I continued my training at UCLA, which was amazing, and had some incredible mentors, and still do. And then went straight from UCLA into private practice. So, so that was my career path, that I completely [...]. If you ask me, I'm just... no. I'm sorry.

(01:32:38) Justin McMillen: No, I think we were... we started with how did you start school so young. And then you went through, and you're just... I mean, it's amazing. So it's a great story. I think anybody listening is probably going like, wow, that's... It's incredible, how one thing after another for you. So these moments where you're taking a... having a stop and, you know, to assess. That happened after you got out of school, and you realized your dad was part of this, and, you know, if you want to do it. And then people come along and help you, you know, really... which is super interesting, because when we started, I said, like, what do you think? Why are you so rare in psychiatry, right? And you're thinking, oh shit, is he going to start attacking psychiatrists or not? But yeah, I mean, you, you being able to be part of pharma, and to actually experience that, and to know that in life, there's just, there's this world where there's just these demons, terrible, that are doing terrible things. There's bad things in everything. There's things that happen that are messed up systemically. But you can't just take an entire industry and say it is terrible. I mean, pretty much anyone who says that probably has... they themselves, or somebody they love, that's still alive because of pharmaceutical inventions. And I think we forget that. So there's, there's, there's a pendulum swinging, right? Like COVID. And so this government, as much as a lot... there's a lot of reasons. But I think your experience, likely, probably helps you to understand this balance between psychiatry and your heart, right? And a desire to help people through psychotherapy, to have a common respect on all sides, maybe.

(01:34:31) Britton Arey: Yeah, I absolutely do. And I, I do think there are a lot of people who demonize the, you know, a lot of the industries. I think it's sort of not really understanding the contributions, or, you know, really to acknowledge the fact that when you go and get an antibiotic, it's like a very trivial thing now. It wasn't, a hundred years ago.

(01:35:01) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:35:01) Britton Arey: It's because of the...

(01:35:03) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:35:04) Britton Arey: ...people like Colonel Eli Lilly, who, you know, who actually started his own little [...], and insulin and diabetes, and, and how much they've done for medicine and for, you know, for our health. And so I, I think that gets forgotten, when it's so easy, like cell phones, you know, to place the blame on that.

(01:35:31) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:35:31) Britton Arey: That's the, the, the big evil, right? As opposed to, well, you know, there are shades, right? Everything kind of exists in its own place, but it's not all bad.

(01:35:43) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's true, it's easy to demonize. And to, I think, going back to this morning, the book Tribe talks about one of the ways [...] is through existential threat. Right. And it's probably genetic. There's probably a genetic cause for it, which is that we had something that was going to threaten our security, and then we learned that, as a species, when we came together and collaborated, that we were more successful than when we separated. So, so we see this as humans, where we have some external other and it causes us to attach. And it's true, and it's actually terrible, because it means that we're always going to have to have a war, or an opposing team, or something close. Like after 9/11, everyone came together. And I think people feel more attached, and we also... even if we're not, like, aware of it in the front of our minds, I think anything that makes us feel attached, we're going to gravitate towards. And I think demonizing, that's bad and good, and it's all, like, the desire for a bond, an attachment. Even, like, we have a center in Oregon, right? In Portland, there were people right outside of our facility, and they were, like, smashing it, and just, like, hitting it with a bat. And it was like a minor little riot. And they called me, they were like, this is crazy, these people are nuts. And I was like, no, I look at it like, they're like, you know, tribe. Like, they're like... that was exactly... I'm like, that's, it's, it's... Yeah. I mean, these [...] movements for, you know, things, social... it was to be alone, is, people want a reason. It's coming together. I'm so damn lonely, like, whatever it takes. So it's like we all hate [...], or I guess it's, like, demonizing. And, you know, maybe it's just a symptom of us being lonely.

(01:37:53) Britton Arey: I, I could not agree more. I think it's more of a symptom of the, the fragmentation. And, you know, that there is an epidemic of loneliness, and I feel like there isn't enough awareness of that. And I think the point is really... it's so much easier when there's these proxy causes. It's gotta be phones that are doing it. It's gotta be technology. It's this. No, it's actually us as people, who are trying to fill holes that we already experience within ourselves with these things. We need to come up with, like you said, the root cause of why we're experiencing that. And I like, you know, tribalism is... and I'm sure you're seeing it in schools as well, right? Where kids are coming together, sometimes in not altogether healthy ways, because they, they found a social identity that makes them feel part of something that's not necessarily reflective of their personal identity.

(01:39:03) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:39:03) Britton Arey: But they're, they're, they're bonding, and they're finding a way to fit in over a social construct. And I feel like that does them [...] sometimes, because it's not really reflective of, of who they are, but it's in fit with the new social norm.

(01:39:24) Justin McMillen: Maybe it's just they're, they're living in a frame that's very natural, which is like, find community. And to some place within that gang. Oh, this is a terrible situation, but it's natural for us to want to be with people where we all have a place where, you know, gangs, like, survival, the idea that we're all working collectively for this thing. These are natural things that will be, very bad things for the family.

(01:40:02) Britton Arey: Yeah. Making up the replacement for the family, that structure that doesn't exist. And so you're absolutely right. People will find, gravitate toward a way to create that family bond, even if it's a really unhealthy way to do it. Violent, you know, horrific way of finding that, the, the male structure. That's what gangs represent.

(01:40:27) Justin McMillen: You're part of... yeah, a group. That lonely, that we're doing all of this... like, some of these are symptoms of people that are just in need of others so badly that we're, like, expressing it in all these weird ways.

(01:40:43) Britton Arey: I mean, even so, like, our need for connection is being hijacked, or allowing ourselves to be... social media to sort of hit those marks for us and give us a minor version of it. It's very, like, synthetic and not real.

(01:41:02) Justin McMillen: Tribalism. My party versus your party. Everybody wants to belong so badly, that's why they're so terrible.

(01:41:12) Britton Arey: Yeah.

(01:41:12) Justin McMillen: It's just nice to know that you exist. And that's why I love doing this. Because, like, I've been really great... yes, I've had [...] on at some point. Maybe we do that, because it's connecting you guys, because the forum...

(01:41:27) Britton Arey: Yeah.

(01:41:27) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Where it's okay. Yeah. Like, kind of... yeah. Every time I'm sitting here I'm like, man, if you could be next to that person, you guys could be talking, that would be great.

(01:41:39) Britton Arey: That'd be really interesting.

(01:41:41) Justin McMillen: Really awesome. Yeah. There's so much. I, yesterday, a guy came in, he runs Project Kinship. Who's heard of this? It's like Homeboy Industries in LA. Basically, think of, like, the prison system, the public, and the people of the prison, and they stay stuck in the system, they never really make their way out. So this guy, who was really kind of, of all of that, grew up in gangs, covered in [...], stories insane. But he created Project Kinship as a felon. Now he's got 130 employees, you know, schools. And it's about the same thing, which is, like, having people that care, like bringing... How would you describe what you do at the end of the day? Like, you're in prisons, you do all this stuff. He's like, I think we bring the heartbeat to the whole system. It's like the real human inside. And so you get out after three years, and wake up, and it's like Project Kinship. So, all right, we're going to get education. We're like, let's make sure you're rehabilitated, so you don't end up back in this thing. And he's putting all these people through school. Yeah, just an amazing person who's sitting across from me. It's just like, it's just like coming off... It's like, this guy's just living in this crazy... great, great. Yeah. Just people talking. And then the conversation elevated enough to talk about how we make, like, larger scale, you know...

(01:43:15) Britton Arey: But I think that your point, though, is, is because what he's doing, and even the name of his, his project... Right, Project Kinship, is about family, is talking about connection.

(01:43:27) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:43:27) Britton Arey: Talking about the same thing that we're talking about with, you know, what the Harvard Grant Study predicted for happiness and longevity. We're talking about the same thing that reduces recidivism.

(01:43:42) Justin McMillen: Right. Right.

(01:43:43) Britton Arey: It's, it's connection. Connection is the antithesis of, of abuse, right? It's, it's the opposite of relapse. You're connected. So that's the, the... so much of what we're seeing is what we're struggling with, right? Weighing that, and figuring out how we can approach it systemically, from all of our angles. I think that's so key.

(01:44:07) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I think it's... I think it's, we all have different domains we're working in. I think there's like... there's got to be some way, way through this. So there's also this Netflix thing that's done, you know, after collisions and disruption, and it's kind of creating a conversation around, like, where are we headed as a species, right? This, in America really, like, where are we going? What needs to change? But through all of this dialogue with the people, right? So everything, it's like, there needs to be a real conversation. We can all have it across all these different, different opinions and different places. Like, there's got to be a way to talk about this at a scale that is, is, is really grabbing people's ears and attention. Not yours, that sounds weird. Because I think it's just like, for you, it's obvious. You're like, you know, you're, you're very clear on that. I mean, to be there for each other, people. You have answers, and other people have similar answers. And if we could somehow just get the public to understand, like, yeah, this is actually why... I think everyone's feeling the feeling that something is really wrong. I think a lot of people feel that way, and nobody knows where to look for the answer. And there's, there's people selling their weird random ideas, but they're not like, we have to look at the whole picture. And if we don't, the country will fall. Yeah, it sounds super [...], but I do. I think we're at that point where if America doesn't stop and take a look at how we got here, what's next, we're going to collapse. And then everything that this was trying to do is going to become like... it's going to be what other countries do, which is a failure, you know?

(01:46:11) Britton Arey: But then it also is, Abraham Lincoln, a house divided...

(01:46:15) Justin McMillen: ...cannot stand.

(01:46:16) Britton Arey: Yeah. Something like that.

(01:46:19) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:46:19) Britton Arey: Yeah. That's exactly what this is, right?

(01:46:22) Justin McMillen: It's so nice. And, you know, red... it sucks. It'd be nice if we could come together. So I think the answer, obviously, is the alien invasion.

(01:46:33) Britton Arey: Yeah.

(01:46:33) Justin McMillen: That's gonna put everybody right on the same page.

(01:46:36) Britton Arey: Well, clearly we need you, right? I can see it. But, I mean, your point is really... well, my husband was in, worked for the government, doing consulting work, and he worked for [...]. And one of the projects they worked on was this... and forgive me, but it was, the idea was to put people together in a room that would otherwise never have an opportunity to interact. So scientists with people in entertainment, like directors, and people in industry, and, you know, engineers, and laborers, and people who, you know, had, yeah, very different perspectives, very different walks of life, so that they could come up with... they have a problem, and they have all of them in the room to talk about what their approaches are, and different approaches. And that would bring something different to the conversation. And, you know, you'd never get these people together in a room to tackle that problem, you know, like, oh, but, but people from the entertainment industry, people in, you know, interactive media, physicists with, you know, all these different things together, like that. So that the creators of... what if [...] wiped out our communications grid? And that, those are the people that were helping the government solve those problems, were thinking outside the box about ways to, you know, come up with solutions that they themselves wouldn't have been able to, and a bunch of them in that one wouldn't have. But together, there was power.

(01:48:33) Justin McMillen: Yeah, that's... yeah. That one, that's so cool. That's... I'm so curious. I don't know how much you can talk about what the problems they dropped into were, that sort of...

(01:48:47) Britton Arey: Yeah, that one, by the way, was me. That's not what he shared. But it was, it was those types of, you know, the, the... I mean, it was... it started working on, like, defense contracts, and trying to come up with different creative solutions. That was the name of the game, right? So it was like a myriad of different interconnected points. Right? So, but, I mean, it was... so I was so glad he was a part of that. And I love that our, our government was thinking like that. So putting these... trying to figure this stuff out, I mean, so much better.

(01:49:34) Justin McMillen: Yeah. There's really... I mean, this is... In place, right? But, but there's some good things. Some really good things are happening. There's a lot of hope. Yeah. I think sometimes, you know, I think we, we've had this, we're the dominant force in the world, right? We've been the global superpower for quite a while now. And, and we've been carrying a lot of things forward, and for whatever reason... I mean, very even, page to page. But, like, this country, since it was founded, the system that we created here has given birth to so much innovation, because it's a system where we're allowed to be free and to think, and, and that's great. And I would say, I think our freedoms are being taken away because of maybe our inability to engage with them without destroying ourselves. So we can, you know, [...] in the United States, but most of the world, poverty, there's a lot of things that have happened here. We've played so much, right? And so the question is, what's next? And we're also this country in the free world. And so maybe what our next frontier is, is, like, we become the healthiest, physically, mentally, so we can show the world that... that would be a... that's sort of a Pollyanna idea, I know. Is it, rather than just being the most dominant military force... And the reason I think we can do this is because we have more data on human health than anyone in the world. It's just siloed behind firewalls and hidden interoperability issues. We're very close with a way to connect all of it, make meaning of it, without messing with privacy. And just knowing that once we unlock that, we find answers to human health. And if we stay with the narrative, nothing's super contentious in government. There's... I've seen in my life, even if there's lots of wrong things being said, there's a push towards us being healthier. That's great. So if that continues, and America goes, okay, yeah, we're sick... in fact, most likely, yes. I think that might be the path, is how do we help this nation and show others how to do it? But then we have to have the opposite sort of thing. So we're fighting against, really, like, sickness and disease. I don't know, I don't know.

(01:52:08) Britton Arey: Well, there's all... I wholeheartedly agree with you. Like, I don't think... it used to be defined, right, as military might, dominance. And it really doesn't have to be that alone. You can be dominant because you're dominant in terms of longevity, and, and, or well-being. And we can corner that, if we all can get along enough to get people to [...] in that meaningfully. And I think we can. So I, I tend to kind of... I'm a Pollyanna, like you. But I think there's enough, you know, data out there. And I agree with you. AI is going to be huge in our ability to cut that data, better understand how to leverage our resources to become healthier, and to use what we have available to capitalize on that.

(01:53:12) Justin McMillen: So incredible. What an amazing thing. Like, that would be the next frontier. It's like, [...] over. Mentally sick, physically fucked up. Okay, now we're gonna, we're going to correct that. Because guess what? The rest of the world is also going to be... I like, you know, it's gonna take everyone's job, to make it even more... We're just gonna do whatever we want. So we got to solve this. We all get together. It looks like people... we pay people to help people stay healthy, so that you're making... You could bill insurance if you've been sick for 20 years. And practice like, sure, you get paid because you're continuing to help them stay healthy, and vacations, or whatever it is, right?

(01:53:53) Britton Arey: [...] The Moonshots people, there's this whole group. They talk about the future, and they're very much here doing all this stuff, it's huge. And to launch all this and go about it, these smart people... Elon Musk has been on their podcast. It's, it's brilliant. They've, they've also talked a lot about the... they believe a lot of diseases are going to be eradicated in, like, the next, like, decade or so, because of the advent of technology, based on the speed of, of how quickly AI iterates, right? That, that we have so many opportunities based on, you know, again, if we don't demonize AI. The whole... with regulation, you know, for another... it doesn't need to be regulated, especially now. But, if we can allow it to... we can use, we can use it to, you know, to really mine what is currently making us sick. And, you know, we can use it for that purpose. The opportunities in, in health and wellness are enormous.

(01:55:24) Justin McMillen: Absolutely. So, you know, they're using it in drug discovery right now. They're partnering and accelerating the pace...

(01:55:33) Britton Arey: [...]

(01:55:33) Justin McMillen: Yeah. They're able to mimic evolution and get all these drug patterns. And he was... he created a form of AI that uses evolution. So evolution AI, basically, like, you can run and simulate evolution to get, like, develop, like, one of the tests that detects... ...prostate cancer. And it's used, it's really good. Understand? So it was difficult. It was like, my brain is hurting, and he thought it was great. I was like, yeah, I felt like I couldn't... because my job was to translate for some of you guys that come in here with these brains. I'm like, so the audience can understand what you're saying. The... I know we gotta, we're gonna, we're gonna come back, we're gonna do, like, a part two, because I want to talk about some other subjects listed here. But the last one is, I think, I think the problem with AI is, is... and I know [...] just tried to rebrand it with superintelligence. They initially rebranded... but my opinion is it should be called collective intelligence, because it's, it's the mission of all of our thoughts. And I think right now it's this inhuman thing, or, or whatever. So that's become the other thing for us to even demonize and come together around. And that sucks, because what it is, is Shakespeare. It's all this. It's all we've written, and it's, it's like, so cool that we took all of human language, thought and reasoning, coding, and we put it in a box. We can go ask it questions, like, the collective consciousness. And this... people want this. Like, we figured out a way to create it, and it's amazing. And we shouldn't be afraid. We should use it as a tool and make it a human thing, and just, just harness it, like electricity, that people do, and machines. And it's not different, right? We turn it into something... we're literally creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of self-destruction.

(01:57:39) Britton Arey: I think with it, it's crazy, comparing, you know, AI data centers to nuclear energy, right? In terms of, you know, not wanting this in certain cities. And I think, I think that doing it... I just love the idea of the collective intelligence. That is exactly what it is. It's the entirety of what is put out there for, for human thought, that it's been able to... you know, the anthropomorphism of it is a disservice.

(01:58:15) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:58:16) Britton Arey: Because then it does become the... You know, conscious thing that can actually [...].

(01:58:25) Justin McMillen: So it's a tool.

(01:58:26) Britton Arey: Yeah. It's like your point, by being like... you know, well, you know, it's, it's something that we use, that, you know, if done in the right ways, can really help us. Everything can be used to destruct, right? A hammer and nail.

(01:58:45) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:58:45) Britton Arey: Can be used for destruction.

(01:58:48) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:58:48) Britton Arey: But doesn't it also put houses together, and things that are really good for society? And we need to move in that direction and conceptualize in those ways. A force for the right.

(01:59:02) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's, you know, the hammer and nail. [...]

(01:59:06) Britton Arey: So that, I'd like to see. It would be a good rebrand, you know, for sure.

(01:59:12) Justin McMillen: Yeah. We should... but we can, we... I think it needs to be changed, because we also need to feel like we own it. It's like, it's a way to unify us. Like, look what we did. We... What, you mean I didn't do it? Yeah, actually you did. You wrote something too. And at some point for us as a species, like, this is all of us.

(01:59:33) Britton Arey: And I'm all... yeah.

(01:59:34) Justin McMillen: And so you, the Oracle of Delphi, ask questions and get answers, and it's a perfect memory.

(01:59:41) Britton Arey: Yep.

(01:59:41) Justin McMillen: And we all have a responsibility to continue contributing to it, right? Because it's ours now. It's just like, people in Silicon Valley, it's theirs. Which is weird. They just created the frame. But the, it's nothing without all of what we put into it.

(01:59:59) Britton Arey: That's so... well, and that's so... that's such an important point. And that, you know, when we have part two, there's a huge part of that in mental health, right? Because, like, trying to... I, as a, as a therapist... And so there are huge roadblocks that have come up. And I think that the nuanced discussions, yeah, are hard, because there, there are some real benefits for people who wouldn't go see a therapist, to be able to ask questions.

(02:00:31) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(02:00:31) Britton Arey: You know, get the collective intelligence, right, or [...], which is not the same as going to see a therapist, right? It's not, it's not the same as going to your psychiatrist. It is... it's not a person. And that's the differentiation I can make. It's like, it's not the same thing as a human connection.

(02:00:56) Justin McMillen: We [...] together. So when we reconnect for a second episode, if you can see... see me and you together, we're on the same email. And then maybe you could come up with a few topics that would be interesting. So since we've sort of figured out our different things, I'll do the same, and we'll kind of flesh out 4 or 5 things, and we'll just really get into the weeds on it.

(02:01:20) Britton Arey: I think artificial intelligence would be a good one.

(02:01:24) Justin McMillen: I... that, that, the children. So my son, who's 15, he hates AI, and all his friends do.

(02:01:32) Britton Arey: Yeah.

(02:01:33) Justin McMillen: And I was like... and he's like, they're [...].

(02:01:37) Britton Arey: Really? I have not heard that.

(02:01:39) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I mean, he's, he's just like, no, no... my age. Like, yeah. Like, yeah. And I thought about it. I was talking... so we'll think about it. They sit around and listen to adults talking about AI taking all these jobs. We're robbing these kids of, like, their dreams. I mean, every dream they can think of, they... so they already have this. As a kid, you want to do stuff. I want to be a doctor. Well, the doctors are going away because... oh, well. Yeah, that's... yeah, you should try that. You know, they hear us talking about this. It's a new generation of kids who are being raised without the ability to be, like, magnanimous in their thinking about what they're going to do. And because they're being... super sad. And then I was... I thought we should talk about that now. So I'm trying to get him to come on here, because I want him to help me. But he is, he is... I don't think adults understand.

(02:02:37) Britton Arey: So true, because she has the exact same... there you go. 17. And they're, they're being told all of that in school, that AI is the big evil, and they're not allowed to utilize it. They're not learning the technology, they're not using... They're not learning how to use it.

(02:02:56) Justin McMillen: Right.

(02:02:56) Britton Arey: Which is just like not letting kids use computers, right? When computers first came out, right, when the internet launched, you know, of course everybody's job is going to, you know... [...] for doctors and lawyers came up. It actually pivoted. It enabled professions. It, you know... people had to leverage the power of computers and the internet differently. But it didn't necessarily eliminate them wholesale.

(02:03:30) Justin McMillen: You know, I don't think AI will do the same thing either. But people will have... I think, just like anything, fear is like the big... you know, we know how shows blow up. It's like, all you gotta do is get people in here to talk about things that are really controversial, scary. I mean, it's... there are things that trend, and everybody wants to... for some reason, we like to be afraid. And so humans search for that narrative around the subject that everything's terrible.

(02:04:04) Britton Arey: And, and then these frames are pretty dangerous, because words matter and messages matter. And so we create, we create a reality through how we talk about it with others.

(02:04:16) Justin McMillen: Thank you very much for coming in. This is an amazing conversation, and I'm looking forward to having you back.

(02:04:22) Britton Arey: Thank you, Justin. And I really appreciate it.

(02:04:24) Justin McMillen: Absolutely.