Transcript

(00:00:09) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So you're my first guy around this subject. Mike...

(00:00:11) Mike Riso: Mike Riso.

(00:00:12) Justin McMillen: Is that how you say it?

(00:00:13) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:00:13) Justin McMillen: Perfect.

(00:00:13) Mike Riso: Yeah, most people...

(00:00:14) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. And then we're... We... I'm very mellow about all of this stuff, so we just take it easy and just normal conversation.

(00:00:20) Mike Riso: Okay.

(00:00:20) Justin McMillen: So you've done this before, so you have a podcast?

(00:00:23) Mike Riso: I do, yeah. It's independent of MUFON. But it's called Universal Disclosure Podcast.

(00:00:28) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:00:28) Mike Riso: And I do that with my friend Reverend Stu in Melbourne, Australia.

(00:00:32) Justin McMillen: Nice.

(00:00:33) Mike Riso: So we talk about the, the nuts and bolts and the nonphysical, because when you start talking about UFOs, it really touches every, everything that we are as people. And I think it's the most fascinating topic anyone could ever think about or talk about.

(00:00:47) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. And for the audience who's listening, viewing, what is going on, because Justin doesn't talk about UFOs normally. People who know me well know that this is, this subject has been near and dear to me since I was a boy, and I am... It's sort of the place... I deal with a lot of reality, very, very intense reality around the work I do.

(00:01:06) Mike Riso: Right.

(00:01:07) Justin McMillen: People killing themselves or near killing themselves and then trying to bring them back. And it's like intense. And one of my greatest escapes, I guess, or ways that I, I let my brain go is I, I just soak up as much of this information as I possibly can, and people make fun of me for it because I'm like, super into it. You know? And I'm telling them like, just wait and, wait and see. And so I'm so excited to have you on today because this is like, I'm probably going to be as nerdy and as excited as I could possibly be. And people who don't... aren't used to seeing me this way.

(00:01:39) Mike Riso: Okay. That's cool. I'm, I'm honored to be your first UFO guest.

(00:01:43) Justin McMillen: That's, that's awesome. Yeah. And so you're, you work with MUFON.

(00:01:47) Mike Riso: Yeah, I work with MUFON. So, I'm the state director for Southern California MUFON.

(00:01:52) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:01:53) Mike Riso: I'm also recently been appointed to the regional southwest, director of the regional southwest. So California, Texas, Arizona and Nevada, New Mexico and Hawaii.

(00:02:03) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:02:04) Mike Riso: I help those states do their thing too, but they all have competent state directors. So, thankfully, it's not too much of a thing there, but, I focus, I focus mostly on SoCal here.

(00:02:16) Justin McMillen: Okay. And then for people who don't know, what is MUFON?

(00:02:20) Mike Riso: MUFON is the Mutual UFO Network, in 1969. It actually started out as the Midwest UFO Network, and then it grew to become the Mutual UFO Network. It's a worldwide organization. It's all volunteers. So there's, I don't know how many hundreds, actually like five, six, 700 people around the world who do what I do. They volunteer their time to investigate UFO sightings.

(00:02:41) Justin McMillen: Nice. Yeah. That's incredible. So you're, you're... someone sees a UFO, they reach out to MUFON. And then what do you do? You go out and talk to them? Or how does that work?

(00:02:51) Mike Riso: Most of it is done virtually. I like to Zoom with people so I can see who they are. And then, we can... I like to share my screen too, because I want to... I go to Google Maps and I'll put, like, I want to go right there. Like, where were you? Let's... Okay. What direction were you looking? So we, we can confirm what direction they saw the thing and where it went. That's helpful in the investigation part too.

(00:03:13) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:03:13) Mike Riso: I've gone out to the field a couple times, which is pretty rare. I was telling you guys earlier, I worked a couple of alleged implant cases, and that's the kind of thing where you got to go meet in person. Or if there's a crash or landing, you know, we're going to go out and investigate that in person.

(00:03:31) Justin McMillen: What? What would you... What... Tell me a story of an implant case. And tell... because, again, the audience may not know what this means. So explain.

(00:03:41) Mike Riso: Okay, so, an implant is an alleged object that is put into the human body by a being that is not human. So that's, that's what an implant is.

(00:03:50) Justin McMillen: How often... so, I mean, let me, let's go back a little bit. So how do you, how do you relate to this work? Meaning like, I think I, I mean, give some context here. I think the country... I think there's some statistics around the vast majority of the country believes that there's something out there. And, but this, this subject itself still gets a lot of scrutiny. And in order to do the work you do, you have to be an investigator. You have to be objective and, and come at it. So how do you relate to this sort of thing, or when you're showing up or you're going to talk to somebody, like, is your first belief that this person's probably crazy, or how do you, how do you approach it?

(00:04:33) Mike Riso: I'm neutral from the start. And, and actually, we're actually... we're crossing over...

(00:04:38) Justin McMillen: This is a horrible way to say that. Sorry.

(00:04:40) Mike Riso: No, no, no, that's, it's not at all. It's, it's, it's a fair thing to say, I believe. But we are crossing over. So MUFON has two wings. There's the nuts and bolts investigation side, and then there's the ERT, the Experiencer Research Team. What we're talking about now with the, with the implant is it's almost like straddling the line of both, because you have potential physical evidence, which is the nuts and bolts stuff, and then you have potential experience, which is more often than not a story with not a whole lot of proof. Occasionally we will get something like that. But, so there's two different hats to wear. And so, this is actually quite interesting. So someone made a report and they felt that they had... with this...

(00:05:22) Justin McMillen: So, California, this was?

(00:05:24) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:05:25) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:05:25) Mike Riso: Yeah. Not too far south of where we are now is where it happened. So, they made a report where they thought that they had something in their hand, and they had gone to a hospital and they got... it was, it, there was an ultrasound. There was a CAT... I don't know, an X-ray, ultrasound. And I think that was... but anyway, two medical imaging were done. And doctors said, yep, there's something in there. It doesn't belong in there. What is it? So they reached out to us and, I, like I said, I approach it all neutral from the start. But it was a significant road trip for me to go to meet with this person, but I'm happy to do it. But however, I made them prove, like, show me the medical stuff. Show me your license. You know, so I can do a little background. You know, make sure that I'm going into a safe place. Took a friend with me. It's... so that's another thing. If, if ever we go out to the field, it's required, you don't go alone and you meet in a public place kind of thing.

(00:06:32) Justin McMillen: Which makes sense.

(00:06:33) Mike Riso: So I brought my tri-field meter and my metal detector, and, you know, my, my camera, and it's like, we're going to record everything. Just, just in case, we don't know what's going to happen. So I, you know, set it up and nothing came through on the metal detector part. Nothing really came through on the tri-field. Like, okay, it's not that interesting yet, but, but this is going to be removed. So I also gave them a medical grade vial that I put gloves on and, you know, gave it to them as sterile as I possibly could. Like, put the thing in here when you're done, and then I'll come and retrieve it. And originally they were saying, yeah, no problem. We'll, we'll give you the... we'll give it to you.

(00:07:11) Justin McMillen: And when you showed up, Mike, were they... I mean, can you give me a little bit of background around... Are they like a stable seeming person? Did they seem... Are you allowed to talk about that?

(00:07:22) Mike Riso: Yeah. I mean, this is, this was... it was a little bit more of a gray area kind of case with that kind of a question.

(00:07:29) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:07:29) Mike Riso: But yet, you know... You know, I say that, you know, with, you know, just because... Most people would know what that means. It doesn't care about what you do as a person or how smart you are or what color your skin is or whatever. So, so, I mean, on one hand, I get what you're saying, and I think I'm trying to answer it in an appropriate way.

(00:07:51) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:07:51) Mike Riso: But, I didn't let that affect anything...

(00:07:53) Justin McMillen: Got it.

(00:07:54) Mike Riso: ...with, with the case.

(00:07:55) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah. You'd wonder. Like, so say you show up and it's somebody who clearly has schizophrenia or something like that, that's like living on the street. That might be taken differently, but you probably need to... if you're going to take all things in the same way and be objective, you have to consider everybody the same. Would be very different than like some professional person who's just like, I can't believe I'm calling you. But this, like, there's a thing that happens...

(00:08:24) Mike Riso: A lot too. Yeah. I mean, we, we talk to people from all different walks of life. I'm, I've talked to law enforcement, ex-military, you know, doctors, you know, you name it. It's, it's across the board. There isn't any one particular type of person that is more, I don't know, whatever, likely to see or experience something than... It's, it's equal representation across the board.

(00:08:48) Justin McMillen: Yeah. I suppose witness credibility would be... Is that considered? Do you...

(00:08:53) Mike Riso: Yeah. Absolutely.

(00:08:54) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:08:55) Mike Riso: I don't believe everybody that I talk to.

(00:08:58) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:08:58) Mike Riso: They're not going to know it, but, but that's one of the things that we take into consideration. And fun little fact, it was the FBI that came in in 1969 and handed over all of their steps to MUFON. They're like, you guys want to do this? Here, this is how we do it. We're doing it the same way that they did way back then. It's, forgive the expression, but there's 12 steps to it. And what we, we go through and, and cross-reference all kinds of data points, you know, the weather, the astronomy, flight radar. Are there any other reports that are taking place around this time? It's rare, but it happens, and it's always fun when it happens, like, oh, wow. You reported this thing on, I don't know, whatever, pick a date.

(00:09:42) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:09:43) Mike Riso: And then I go into the database, which, by the way, has over 150,000 reports. And I pick up... well, even if it was ten years ago, I was like, wow. Some other person reported something remarkably similar from 20, 30 miles away. I'm assuming that y'all don't know each other and you reported it a long time apart. Now it's gotten really interesting.

(00:10:03) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:10:03) Mike Riso: Because we have more than one person. You know, typically, it's one person. Maybe, maybe two. But when, when you got people that don't know each other and made separate reports... Now, right now, I'm all... I'm all over that.

(00:10:16) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. You get excited. So what... So the, the... you were going on about the thing in the hand.

(00:10:22) Mike Riso: Oh, yeah. I keep derailing, you know?

(00:10:24) Justin McMillen: That's fine. It's all good.

(00:10:25) Mike Riso: So originally the... I guess we're calling the doctors, right? Because the surgeons... Oh, yeah. No problem. We'll give it to you. Then it gets removed and they're like, we're, we're, we're not going to give it to you. It's in pathology, and they're just not going to give it up. So it's like, oh, that's weird. And then I get word that they needed an affidavit. Okay, fine. I work in professional services. There you go. And they're like, no, we need an affidavit from an attorney's office. Or... Like, what? Why is this all of the sudden? You went from, we'll give it to you, to, we're not giving it to you, now you need the special paperwork. And it's kind of strange. And around that time, my phone started acting weird. But only when I was communicating with that specific person who this was going on with. So, like, I don't know, it could be coincidence.

(00:11:18) Justin McMillen: Did the person have any kind of story that went with that, or they just noticed something in their hand?

(00:11:24) Mike Riso: There was a story that went with it. It was, okay...

(00:11:28) Justin McMillen: You got so many...

(00:11:29) Mike Riso: Okay. Yeah. So I'm, a lot of cases in my head, but no, this is what happened. So when, when they were, let's say, 8 or 9 years old, they went to the doctor. There was something wrong with their hand, and there was a lump in it or something, and they're like, oh... the doctor just brushed it off, it'll go away. And then in a couple days, it, for all intents and purposes, went away and disappeared. And then fast forward several decades, and then the same spot, you know, is irritated. And there's something under there. So they kind of put it all together where it might be connected to way back then. Okay, I'm, I'm open to that, because that is a thing. A lot of experiencers are lifelong experiencers. They have... Multiple events happen throughout their life. So that was kind of like the back story behind it.

(00:12:19) Justin McMillen: Got it.

(00:12:19) Mike Riso: Eventually we, we finally got a photograph of the object, and I looked at it and I think... I mean, honestly, to me, it looks like maybe, maybe a piece of wood. And I sent it in to someone who has looked at many implants. I was like, what do you think about this? Because I'm trying to debate, like, do we really want to get a lawyer involved to write it up? I had somebody in line to do it, but I didn't want to take that step unless I thought it was the real deal.

(00:12:50) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:12:50) Mike Riso: So, sorry for the letdown. It's, I, in my humble opinion, I think it was a piece of wood. But it's still odd to me that the doctors were originally going to just give it over, and then they changed their tune. And it's also odd to me that the, the text messaging got really wonky between me and this person. Never happened before, and only with that person. And if I may jump to another implant case, the same weird stuff happened on text message, only with that person, on a completely different communication app.

(00:13:24) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:13:25) Mike Riso: So it seems if I work an implant case, I have to be extra cautious of my communications with whomever I'm speaking with.

(00:13:33) Justin McMillen: What would that be... As far as the implants go... What is the most... not, not just what you've investigated, but what's the most compelling story around an implant? Do you, do you know of... I know there's a Garry Nolan up north that does a lot of that stuff. Or is it that, or...

(00:13:51) Mike Riso: I don't know if he gets into implants or not. Just... but I know who you're talking about. And respectable guy for sure. I don't know if he gets into implants. There was a doctor named Dr. Roger Leir, who's passed away now. He was in SoCal here, and he specialized in that. He took out a lot of them. I think perhaps the most compelling one that I've heard about, I have not been part of it, but is Whitley Strieber. I don't know if you've heard of him. He's the author of Communion.

(00:14:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:14:21) Mike Riso: And he had...

(00:14:22) Justin McMillen: Crazy.

(00:14:22) Mike Riso: Yeah, exactly. He had, he has allegedly something in his ear. And he went, I believe it was with Dr. Roger Leir at that time, to go get it. I hope, I hope it was with Dr. Leir. So, you know, fact check me on that. But, anyway, point is, they went to make the incision and the thing moved down, away from, you know, the point of incision. And then he decided just to keep it in there. So, there's some Star Trek...

(00:14:49) Justin McMillen: That's some pretty wild stuff.

(00:14:51) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:14:52) Justin McMillen: That's crazy.

(00:14:53) Mike Riso: But there's, there's a number of people who've had stuff removed, and it's always weird in that it's almost always inconclusive, but yet it's always made up of stuff that it shouldn't be made up of. And how in the hell did that get inside of your body? Yeah. It'll happen where, you know, someone gets an X-ray done and like, oh, you've got this thing in the bottom of your foot. What are you talking about? I never had an operation. I don't have anything there. But you do. Yeah, it's, it's bizarre.

(00:15:22) Justin McMillen: That is really crazy. That's... Yeah, that's... I don't know, there's something so creepy about that idea.

(00:15:29) Mike Riso: That part is creepy because you're not really consulted. You don't consent to it. And most of the time, you have no memory of it. Which is another commonality with abductions. It's, there's, there's usually little to no memories. Sometimes it'll surface after the fact.

(00:15:49) Justin McMillen: But what's it... what's the most... as far as all the things... I mean, you've obviously investigated a ton. How long you've been doing this?

(00:15:58) Mike Riso: For four and a half years or so.

(00:16:00) Justin McMillen: Okay. So just in the last four and a half years. What was, what's the most interesting case that you've come across, would you say?

(00:16:08) Mike Riso: There's a couple of them, actually. My second case ever, I thought I was being tested. I was just like, wow, these guys are serious. Like this, this can't be... this can't be real. This is a test. I was talking to a retired law enforcement officer, and I think it was May of 2023, going by memory, middle of the day, downtown Los Angeles. They see what they describe as a sphere that flattens out, spins around, turns back into a sphere, goes up a little bit, shoots across the road and does the same thing a couple of times. You know, okay, this is kind of wild. So then when we're on Google Maps and I'm looking where they're looking, I was like, hang on a sec...

(00:16:53) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:16:54) Mike Riso: I was like, holy shit, that's One Wilshire. And what you're describing is this thing over at One Wilshire and it's going to U.S. Bank Tower. The two most sensitive buildings in all of Los Angeles. I used to be a property manager in downtown L.A. in the early 2000s, and One Wilshire might be different now, but back then, nobody lived there. It was all computers, telco, telecommunication equipment...

(00:17:19) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:17:20) Mike Riso: Servers and stuff like that. Yeah, it's one of those weird buildings like that. And then of course, U.S. Bank Tower, formerly Library Tower, also a pretty, you know, sensitive building. So, like, what in the hell is this object spinning around and going back and forth in between the two? So I thought it was a test. But after interviewing this person at length multiple times, I was like, I don't think it's a test, you know?

(00:17:44) Justin McMillen: So it was a, it was a police officer, retired?

(00:17:47) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:17:47) Justin McMillen: But yes. And he saw it himself, or she...

(00:17:50) Mike Riso: They saw it with their eyes. There were other witnesses. Unfortunately, the other witnesses did not want to speak. They did snap a photo. And they took a photo of it, hoping that they captured the object. They looked at the phone and they're like, it's not there. Whatever. They go to lunch. After lunch, they look at it again and they zoom in, like, oh, I got it. So they sent it, and I, I analyzed it. I confirmed that it was authentic. It wasn't messed with. And it showed a perfect sphere. It was a dark, perfect sphere. And it's like, okay, well, I mean, honestly, it could be a balloon, but it's too perfect to be a balloon, right? And a balloon wouldn't, you know, pop back and forth between two buildings with intention. But, anyway, that was, that was one of the more interesting ones.

(00:18:39) Justin McMillen: Did they, did they appear to be shaken? Were they shook by it, like rattled from seeing...

(00:18:44) Mike Riso: Well, I mean, yes or no. Most of the time people are, I would say, I don't know, I'd say confused, but they're, they're looking for answers. They want to know what it is.

(00:18:55) Justin McMillen: Do they always assume it's like aliens and extraterrestrials, or are they... What was his take? Was he like, I saw something, it wasn't from this world, or was it... or their take, excuse me?

(00:19:06) Mike Riso: I don't know, man. Or... Yeah, they weren't really sure what to think about it. I ultimately closed their case as insufficient data. And they were in agreement with that, as, like, I can't rule out this wasn't a drone, even though what you're describing doesn't really sound like a drone. But, so, again, my, my thought... This is, you know, like, not to get wild, this is my thought, is whatever this thing was, it's trying to, like, suck up information through all this communication. Like, I don't know how that would happen, but, you know, what else would it be doing there? And then there was also an LAPD airship in the sky at the same time. And it was said that the pilot must have seen this because they almost collided. So it doesn't get more serious than that when you're talking about a law enforcement helicopter almost colliding with this thing that's over two sensitive buildings. But at the end of the day, like what? What do we do with this?

(00:19:59) Justin McMillen: How big did they... Did they think it was?

(00:20:01) Mike Riso: I mean, by the tone... I don't recall off the top of my head. I mean, I think they were thinking 6 to 8ft, perhaps.

(00:20:08) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:20:09) Mike Riso: If I remember correctly.

(00:20:10) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's unreal. I mean, unreal. What was it you said? There was a couple. What was the other one?

(00:20:16) Mike Riso: Well, there was, there was another one where there was a person in Palm Springs, and these are all recent too. I like the recent stuff. These are... they were driving down the 10, I think it is, out there. And it was, this was like four, 4:15 a.m. Most everyone was asleep. The only people on the roads are the truckers. And they see some lights off in the distance. Now, we're close to Twentynine Palms. You know, a military base. Their first thought was they're doing drills. Or maybe these things are flares. But it was flying directly with them. The flares weren't burning out, so they weren't flares. And they ended up pulling over and stopping the car and getting out, taking video of it. They described what to them appeared to be like a 300ft chevron craft, like a big V, gigantic. And, you know, it had lights, you know, three lights, and it silently floated over them. They took video of it for approximately five minutes, and they said that, you know, they felt a very tremendous peace and calm while this was happening. And that lasted like 7 or 10 days after the fact, which is pretty interesting.

(00:21:29) Justin McMillen: So you've seen video of it flying over the...

(00:21:32) Mike Riso: Well, hold on. So they, they stopped the video. They confirmed that it's on their phone and they play it a little bit, and then they throw the phone back in the car, go and shower, get some coffee, and they go to retrieve the video, and it's not there.

(00:21:48) Justin McMillen: Oh, man.

(00:21:48) Mike Riso: So my first question was, well, how do you know you even took the video? Maybe you thought you were taking a video and you snapped a picture. And they're like, no, I, I watched a couple seconds of the video to confirm that there was a video. Okay, fine. How do you know that you didn't accidentally delete it? Did you go into... Yes, I went into all of my stuff. Everything is there except this one thing. It's like, okay, interesting. And then on that night, there was a helicopter in the sky doing spraying for invasive mosquitoes. So I tracked where the helicopter took off and landed. Being what I do, you know, for a living, I found out who owns that property, and I called that person. I was like, I want to talk to that pilot. You know, are they... Did they see anything? They should have, but it also didn't make noise. I made several attempts and got, no, I got no response from that phone call. So if you are a helicopter pilot who was in Palm Springs doing invasive spray, you know, reach out if, if this sounds familiar, because I want to talk to you. I mean, it'll be interesting to get some corroboration in that regard, but I do believe the person and what they said.

(00:22:58) Justin McMillen: Yeah, they just seemed... they just felt like they were...

(00:23:02) Mike Riso: Yeah, they, they seemed... they were very, you know, upstanding, had a very credible position in life. They didn't want to be known or, you know, they're not looking to get money for anything. And that's the other thing. MUFON doesn't buy or sell, you know, any stories, as it were. Sometimes people do think that.

(00:23:18) Justin McMillen: Sure. But you guys aren't doing this to make all the big bucks.

(00:23:22) Mike Riso: It's like, no, it's, it's private. They can... Everybody volunteers their time.

(00:23:26) Justin McMillen: So, so you, in order to do this, you have to be an incredibly curious person.

(00:23:30) Mike Riso: You do. Yeah.

(00:23:31) Justin McMillen: And you, you... I assume most people that are doing the job that you do, they believe. You believe that these things...

(00:23:38) Mike Riso: I believe because I've seen stuff and I've had my own experience.

(00:23:42) Justin McMillen: Trying to cue up my next question, which is what happened to you as a kid? Because I, I heard that there was something that you saw as a child, and I'm, I want you to share that too.

(00:23:54) Mike Riso: Well, you know, I hate to say it, but I'm not comfortable sharing some of that stuff, because I'm still putting the pieces together myself.

(00:24:03) Justin McMillen: Okay, okay.

(00:24:04) Mike Riso: But that's where my thrust comes from.

(00:24:07) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:24:07) Mike Riso: You know, when, when I'm doing this kind of stuff, and I was like, okay, well, you know, similar stuff happened. You can only, you can only assume, right? But I'm still, I'm still working through that.

(00:24:22) Justin McMillen: Okay. I respect, I respect that completely. I think the, the theme though is that you have experienced something yourself in some way that for you, this is not... this is real.

(00:24:35) Mike Riso: Absolutely. Yeah. Now the question is what, though? And my personal question is how physical is it really?

(00:24:44) Justin McMillen: Explain what you mean.

(00:24:46) Mike Riso: There's a lot of experiencers who believe that what happened to them was... In a different realm, in a different dimension. Like it happened, and it seemed more real than, than what we are here right now, but yet it wasn't in this same 3D space, which is hard to put into words, but that's, that's a common kind of thing too.

(00:25:09) Justin McMillen: Like multi... like from a different dimension or something?

(00:25:13) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:25:13) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And that's being thrown around in Congress right now. So for some people who are listening to this that think, man, this sounds a little crazy, like just Google, just go on YouTube and Google congressional hearings for UFO whistleblowers and listen to some of America's most well decorated military officers, former heads of agencies, talk about this subject. It's, it's probably at this point... it's crazy to say, but it might be the most important subject being talked about that no one's really getting into. And the only reason I say that is because it's all over. If you're looking in the right places, it's all over. But yet it's still so... we're so conditioned to just be like, well, that's science fiction silliness. So this is part of why I'm so interested in this. So let's see where we're at. So for you, it's real, multi-dimensional. So that's, that's the thought, right? Is that these things are perhaps like moving in and out of time, space. It's kind of the idea, or as well as that is to believe.

(00:26:14) Mike Riso: Yes, that's the thought. So, theory. One of them anyway.

(00:26:18) Justin McMillen: So, yeah. What about spiritual, like biblical? Is there... There's a whole take on that too, right? That these are not...

(00:26:26) Mike Riso: There is. I mean, I do my best to straddle all of the lines without getting too much in one way or the other, but I like to look at it holistically and not just look at one thing, which actually brings up a good point. Let's define what a UFO is.

(00:26:42) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:26:43) Mike Riso: For this conversation.

(00:26:44) Justin McMillen: Perfect.

(00:26:45) Mike Riso: You know, the government has rebranded UFO to UAP. They started off with unidentified aerial phenomena, and then they later pivoted to unidentified anomalous phenomena. And what that translates into really is anything at all that moves that you can't instantly identify can go into that bucket.

(00:27:05) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:27:06) Mike Riso: And I personally don't particularly like that because it really muddies the waters for, for this conversation. If we were to say a UFO is a physical craft with a shape that you can discern that has... it's not aerodynamic, it shouldn't be in the sky, but yet it is. And then it's moving without any... like that's the kind of thing, like that's what we're looking for. That's what a UFO really, really is. A ball of light in the sky, I don't know. It could be anything at all. It might be a UFO, but it also might not, even if it does weird stuff. So for people who say, like, oh, they can call these things in, in a way, I believe that. But what are you calling in specifically? Because I'm not seeing any shape...

(00:27:55) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:27:56) Mike Riso: ...out of that ball of light. I'm just saying, still interesting, but I don't think UFO.

(00:28:01) Justin McMillen: What does that... North Carolina, Chris Bledsoe?

(00:28:04) Mike Riso: Bledsoe. Yeah.

(00:28:05) Justin McMillen: That, I mean, yes. Yeah, he does that, right?

(00:28:07) Mike Riso: Like, yeah, I mean I, I have respect for the guy. And he actually reported his case to MUFON as well. I do believe he's an experiencer. And I do believe he seems to be able to potentially call things in, of sorts, if we use air quotes. But I also believe that they're not UFOs.

(00:28:25) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:28:25) Mike Riso: Unfortunately, he has put out some things online that were later found to be, you know, something different than what he thought. And that happens a lot.

(00:28:34) Justin McMillen: Can you tell us about that, or...

(00:28:36) Mike Riso: Well, I'm not, I'm not trying to, you know...

(00:28:38) Justin McMillen: It's okay.

(00:28:38) Mike Riso: I'm not trying to, like, dog on anyone. I do respect the guy. But he has, unfortunately, put out some stuff like that. Ended up being satellites or rocket launches and things like that.

(00:28:46) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:28:46) Mike Riso: And it, it doesn't, you know, it's not a UFO.

(00:28:49) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah.

(00:28:50) Mike Riso: But I do believe that there's people who can, you know, because this is part of the thing, is consciousness and being connected. There's a lot of telepathy happening with the beings and us. But again, like, what is... you got to define UFO. It can't just be anything at all that moves, you know?

(00:29:09) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's interesting. I think part of why they went to anomalous instead of aerial is because of the, the water stuff, right?

(00:29:17) Mike Riso: Yeah. Yeah. Trans-medium, in and out of the water, in and... from dropping, like the Tic Tacs allegedly came from space as well. Dropping down from, I believe, above 80,000ft, probably well above. That's my... there's, there's...

(00:29:30) Justin McMillen: But I think there's actual radar of that, right? There's actual military...

(00:29:35) Mike Riso: Yeah. That, that was the thing that really sort of kicked off what's going on right now, that's still, you know, percolating throughout. The Nimitz and the Princeton, they were all out there doing war games right here.

(00:29:48) Justin McMillen: Right?

(00:29:48) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:29:49) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:29:49) Mike Riso: Right, right. Off the coast of San Diego, Whiskey 291, maybe. I think it might be, hopefully I'm saying that one right. But, but, yeah, Kevin Day was the radar operator who saw these things multiple days. They were supposed to do a training, and he's like, we can't, we can't do this where there's stuff up there that's dangerous. So, Commander Fravor went up with... well, now we know Alex Dietrich. And they saw these things with their eyes. So, I mean, I don't want to...

(00:30:18) Justin McMillen: They didn't just see them, though. They got... they got video of it. They've got...

(00:30:24) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:30:24) Justin McMillen: I mean, they, multiple different confirmations with different systems showing this, right? And showing them going up in the air, down to the water. And then, and then that was released and put out there. And there's an article in the New York Times or something, right? Or...

(00:30:40) Mike Riso: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

(00:30:41) Justin McMillen: Which really kind of made everyone go, wait a minute. This guy is like decorated military, you know, high ranking. You know, I think he taught at Top Gun or something like that.

(00:30:51) Mike Riso: Yeah, yeah. Commander Fravor is like, you know, the literal, like the, the Top Gun that we know from the movies. Only the, the actual embodiment of that.

(00:31:01) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:31:02) Mike Riso: So when someone like that's talking, I'm listening.

(00:31:05) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:31:06) Mike Riso: My question is, going back to the physical, nonphysical part. You know, we see it with our eyes, we pick it up on radar, okay. But we also see rain with our eyes. We can pick up rain on radar. How physical was this Tic Tac thing? That's my question. Like for something to be able to drop that far that fast and then stop on a dime, like anything inside of it that's living would just be, you know, goo on the wall. So I mean, I'm not saying I have all the answers, but that's, that's my speculation on it. Like how, how physical really was it?

(00:31:39) Justin McMillen: Oh, that's interesting, because, you know, like, like a light could do that. But light wouldn't be something that you would pick up on radar. Wouldn't be solid. It's... it wouldn't create a signal.

(00:31:51) Mike Riso: Yeah. Weird. That is it. You end up with more questions than answers, but it's fun as hell to, to have the conversations and listen to the people and figure out, you know, separate the... you know, 95% of the time we can identify what it is.

(00:32:06) Justin McMillen: So it's in 95% of the... so 95% of the time, not a UFO.

(00:32:09) Mike Riso: Correct. Yeah. So if you take 150,000 cases I talked about, multiply that times 5%, and now you're talking about the total number of, you know, more authentic sightings. But that's still a big number.

(00:32:21) Justin McMillen: Even if it's only one, you know, that's... you know, the world changes.

(00:32:25) Mike Riso: Right.

(00:32:25) Justin McMillen: But yeah. Where do you think this is all headed?

(00:32:29) Mike Riso: Oh boy. I'm not sure just yet.

(00:32:31) Justin McMillen: I'm not sure. And when I say that, I'm talking about the disclosure coming out of the White House. I'm talking, like I was telling Luke and the producer on the way over here, that this, this conversation... If, if what people believe... there's a lot of people say we're going to get full disclosure, there's going to be verifiable evidence. And if that happens, then this particular podcast may be the most important podcast I ever do, which is a crazy idea. That's a crazy idea, right? What do you think? We're headed in that direction, do you think?

(00:33:12) Mike Riso: I do not know.

(00:33:13) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:33:14) Mike Riso: I'd love to see it. And I support all of the people who are pushing for that. I don't see it happening, though. It seems like we're right around the corner. It seems like something's going to happen, but if you followed the topic long enough, it's seemed like that for many, many decades. It's, it's new to some people, or new to us, or it's being presented in a different way, but nothing has really changed much. And you have to ask yourself why. You know? I like Bob Lazar. I have never met him, but I do believe him. I'd love to see the sport model flying saucer that he says he worked on. I'd like to touch it with my hand. That's probably never going to happen. And, as much as I do believe him, as I... But does it really exist?

(00:34:03) Justin McMillen: Sure. I mean...

(00:34:04) Mike Riso: I, yeah... when you're an investigator, you can't latch on to something.

(00:34:08) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:34:09) Mike Riso: You've got to keep an open mind and you have to weigh... you know, my, my mind changes almost... not every day, but, you know, you know, what I say today might be changed in a couple days if I come across any information.

(00:34:23) Justin McMillen: And that, I think, is important as a person as well, to not latch on to something and be like, this is what it is. It has to be this. It can only be this. I know that's why you're good at your job.

(00:34:34) Mike Riso: Well, I hope so. I try.

(00:34:36) Justin McMillen: Because if you go into this idea that I'm here to prove that this is real, versus I'm here to be as objective as possible, and maybe it's real... Maybe it's not.

(00:34:45) Mike Riso: Maybe even more skeptical, highly critical. That's really how you're going to find answers.

(00:34:50) Justin McMillen: Yeah. No, I mean, science itself is really about taking a hypothesis and, and trying to break it rather than trying to prove that it's true. You know, and I think people miss that.

(00:35:00) Mike Riso: I think you're right on the money on that. And, and a lot of, a lot of ways, ufology... I think, you know, with, with ufology and all the branches thereof, if you are seeking something specific, you will find it. But if you question it, you won't know what to think anymore either.

(00:35:17) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:35:18) Mike Riso: And maybe that's the answer. Maybe there is no answer. Or maybe the answer is different for everybody. But at the end of the day, just thinking about it, just having this conversation is fun. It's fascinating.

(00:35:31) Justin McMillen: Like, so now we have to assume that there's other beings, right? Is the assumption... is there's pilots inside of these craft. And of course they look nothing like we... Well, I guess it depends on who you're listening to, but they, you know, they look nothing like we do. And that's a scary thing.

(00:35:51) Mike Riso: Yeah, yeah.

(00:35:52) Justin McMillen: Did... You happen to catch David Grusch's podcast recently on, on Joe Rogan?

(00:35:57) Mike Riso: I heard bits and pieces of it. I couldn't bring myself to listen to all of it because I was just like, oh, man, you know... like him, I like the guy. I respect the guy. But what he's talking about right now, what I think you're referencing, is the comment about the Grays and the reptilians and at war. Yeah. That's just like, you know, now we're, we're out... You're automatically out there the moment you talk about UFOs.

(00:36:24) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:36:25) Mike Riso: And I understand that, but when you start talking about things like this... I've heard that theory before. And he, I believe he said it's mostly secondhand, which is fine. But I'm not saying that I believe that particular theory.

(00:36:41) Justin McMillen: He claimed on that show... maybe we could cut this little section in from the episode itself. But he claimed on that show that he has seen video himself, with his own eyes, of... did you hear this part?

(00:36:55) Mike Riso: I know of a crash...

(00:36:57) Justin McMillen: Crash site with tall, white looking people, the albino skin, that were like, that had been killed. And that he saw another video of... and he said this is going to be released to the public, which was like just bananas to think about this. So another one where there were reptilians that were shot by U.S. soldiers because their lives were in danger.

(00:37:21) Mike Riso: So, so, so this is their video of the reptilians being shot?

(00:37:25) Justin McMillen: After they're shot. I, that's kind of what he alluded to. But the, definitely the tall, white Nordic looking ones, he said they look like Greek gods. He said that... They were like... he said, I can describe them as beautiful. They were just incredible to look at. And then he said something around, like, no one's going to believe the video footage. And so they're going to have to do testing on the actual tissue, and they still have the bodies.

(00:37:56) Mike Riso: Okay. Just... now bring it on.

(00:37:58) Justin McMillen: I know. How is this... is this, this is crazy, you know? Is that... I mean, how can someone with his background, his pedigree, go on a show that big and say this stuff? Like, I can't understand where we are.

(00:38:13) Mike Riso: So I don't know what you're going to think about this, but as an investigator, I don't just embrace that. I'm like, okay, you're, you're saying stuff that we've heard. Let's see it.

(00:38:25) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:38:26) Mike Riso: You know what I mean?

(00:38:27) Justin McMillen: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Where I get... what messes with me is just how many different people are talking about this. Then you have other folks like Elon Musk saying they're not there. If they were there, I would know, right? And it's like, it's like, trust me, I of all people would know. That appears to be true. But you have... it's like, it's... the argument is so interesting because of the amount of people that are putting themselves out there to look like complete idiots if they're wrong, you know what I mean? Why would you do that?

(00:39:01) Mike Riso: Well, I, I don't have the answer to the question, but I can speculate. I mean, there are legitimate people who are courageously stepping forward.

(00:39:08) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:39:08) Mike Riso: And I'm not talking about just the military folks. There's also civilians who have these stories and they step forward. But there's also, you know, it's humanity. You're going to get this. There's going to be people, opportunistic, who want the spotlight or want to cash in on, like, the UFO money machine, which doesn't really exist. There's that too. And it can be difficult to discern, like, who's, who's the real deal and who's not.

(00:39:35) Justin McMillen: Who do you think's most credible? I... out of all the people in the public, is it like Bob Lazar, or is there somebody that you feel like, man, that person is just really hard to, to dispute?

(00:39:49) Mike Riso: I mean, a lot of, a lot of them are credible. Bob Lazar probably is the longest running, and he's, in my opinion, he's like the original and potentially, I don't wanna say only, but he was a legitimate whistleblower. You know, he literally risked it all. And I don't mean any disrespect by this, but what we're hearing from these current whistleblowers is all approved script from the Department of War, which is very different than someone who puts everything on the line to say something. Now that's also interesting. Why is the Department of War approving these things to be said out loud and approving it to go in front of Congress? But then on the same flip side, why does Congress not seem to have the authority or ability to get the answers that they're seeking? You see, it's just a question.

(00:40:43) Justin McMillen: What do you think is the reason?

(00:40:45) Mike Riso: I'm not opposed to it all... not all, but, you know, the physical, nonphysical thing being somewhat of a psyop, where if we keep this... and this is, you know, we're just playing pretend here.

(00:40:58) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:40:58) Mike Riso: If we keep this myth going that we do have these physical craft, then we can keep asking for blank checks, and no one's going to say anything about it. Because there is a pattern that has emerged, and it's always around report time, and it's budget time, that we hear more about the UFOs than we typically do.

(00:41:20) Justin McMillen: Oh, it's just saying... well, that's, I mean, so it's more like defense contractors just trying to get more money. And so they'll do that, and then that'll likely get Congress to approve huge multibillion dollar budgets for black box projects.

(00:41:34) Mike Riso: Potentially. Yeah. That's, that's one theory. And it does make a lot of sense. Might piss off a lot of people that I just said that, but I'm hoping... I'm not saying that's what it is. I'm saying I'm open to that being something, because until we really, really have the answers, we don't have the answers. So another thing is there's a, there's a pivot that I see. We're going back to the threat narrative, and it's a valid narrative in that, you know, we've got all kinds of planes in the sky, commercial planes and stuff. So there is a safety feature to it. But I'm not aware of any UFO accidents with planes that didn't engage first. There are tales of military craft going down and whatnot, or disappearing, whatever. But they actively engaged with whatever this thing was. So the idea of, it's Russia or China, or maybe it is... I say no, because if it was, we wouldn't be speaking English right now. We wouldn't be using dollars. We wouldn't be having this conversation. You know, whoever has that type of technology will be the ruler of planet Earth, if such a technology exists.

(00:42:44) Justin McMillen: That's the part that gets me. So it's like, if this... like the theory is that it's not... the technology doesn't exist within the direct control of the U.S. government. So the theory is that there is technology, that it's in the hands of companies like Lockheed Martin, that they're holding on to, and they have had it for a long time. They don't have, they don't have to pay for anything to anyone. So they control it, and that the controls have been set up that way for a long time, so they can keep running this.

(00:43:12) Mike Riso: Now, if that's true, what you just said is the scary part, because if a private contractor has technology that can do what we're seeing, then they're running the show.

(00:43:23) Justin McMillen: That is a scary part.

(00:43:24) Mike Riso: And there's another theory, like a breakaway civilization. And it's what you're talking about, where... let's just go down this road and it's, you know, play pretend, as it were. Let's say that they do have this technology and they're not giving it up. Who would, who would give it up?

(00:43:43) Justin McMillen: Right, right. We're talking trillions or whatever.

(00:43:46) Mike Riso: It's more than trillions. I don't even know.

(00:43:49) Justin McMillen: Beyond, it's power to the next level.

(00:43:52) Mike Riso: Yeah. However, like, shame on them for holding everyone else back, because you haven't done anything with it. Because you haven't figured it out. Because if you did figure it out, you know, we wouldn't be having this mystery either.

(00:44:07) Justin McMillen: Yeah. But what's breakaway civilization? What do you mean by...

(00:44:11) Mike Riso: Oh, so, so a combination of the, the people who allegedly have the hardware with the people who hold the purse strings are in cahoots to, whether, whether it's... this is going to go... here we go. Getting wild again. But, like, send people away or off planet or whatever to start new civilizations somewhere without any of us knowing, and even knowing we're the funders of that.

(00:44:35) Justin McMillen: Wow. That's more scary potentially than... that's the most insane thought ever. So it's like crafts that can travel through time and space and potentially go to other planets that are inhabitable. And that could be happening right now.

(00:44:50) Mike Riso: It sounds wild. I personally don't know what planet would be inhabitable, but when you look up, you know, in the Milky Way, like... you know, I like to go out and take little vacations in the desert and just unplug. And you look up, you see the Milky Way with your naked eye, you know, holy crap. Like, oh, look at everything. That's like, we're nothing. We're little specks.

(00:45:10) Justin McMillen: Yeah. There's...

(00:45:11) Mike Riso: Yeah. It's like that famous tiny blue speck.

(00:45:14) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. There's, there's got to be more out there than, than this. It's just an interesting idea that if... yeah, all of this sounds crazy, so I just keep giving that disclaimer. But if, so, if we did have reverse engineered craft that can do all of these things, and it was controlled by some person, we're really talking about beyond money, beyond... because multi-dimensional travel, they'd be maybe able to travel through time, right?

(00:45:44) Mike Riso: Potentially. Yeah. Okay, here's the thing. Let's get, let's get really into weird.

(00:45:51) Justin McMillen: Let's get weird. What else you got?

(00:45:54) Mike Riso: There's a good number of cases from experiencers, people reporting that they have gone right through a wall or right up through the roof, and then presumably into a craft. Let's just take that by itself. What technology can do that?

(00:46:13) Justin McMillen: Nothing that...

(00:46:14) Mike Riso: And there's a lot of people who have reported things like that.

(00:46:18) Justin McMillen: I don't know.

(00:46:19) Mike Riso: Right. So if you can do that, you can probably do, like, anything.

(00:46:24) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah.

(00:46:24) Mike Riso: And why is it that the, the legitimate sightings... there's, it's called the Oz Factor, where there's no sound. It's almost like, almost like time stops in a way, where everything just goes silent and still. And then there's a gigantic thing there and, you know, moving or whatever. Like there's, there's something more at play than just the 3D world that we understand. I'm convinced of that.

(00:46:51) Justin McMillen: Maybe it's their soul leaving their body.

(00:46:54) Mike Riso: That's, that's possible. Yeah. Maybe. I mean, that's... so let's, let's, let's go with that, because I've, I've asked a couple people this question and no one's been able to answer it yet. If I had a technology where I could bring you out of your body while you're sleeping, and then I do an operation on your astral body or your light body, is that going to leave a mark on your physical body?

(00:47:19) Justin McMillen: Probably not. That's wild.

(00:47:21) Mike Riso: But, you know, how else can you go through a wall or a ceiling or something like that?

(00:47:26) Justin McMillen: It's like the, the... what do you think of the Fire in the Sky? What's his name?

(00:47:31) Mike Riso: Oh, Travis Walton.

(00:47:32) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:47:32) Mike Riso: That's an interesting... that's one... Okay. That's going to probably be one of the, the most interesting cases, because he was gone for five days. I think it was five days. So it's a significant amount of time. There's witnesses, you know, they're looking for him.

(00:47:48) Justin McMillen: You still cover... Do you cover Arizona too?

(00:47:51) Mike Riso: Well, they, I mean, every, every state has its own...

(00:47:54) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:47:54) Mike Riso: Own chapter.

(00:47:55) Justin McMillen: Oh, you said you do.

(00:47:56) Mike Riso: Yeah. I just, I just help out with, like, some of the admin stuff.

(00:48:00) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:48:01) Mike Riso: But, yeah, I don't get too into the nitty gritty. I'm not, you know, trying to, and do stuff like, you know... but, but it's just, it's a very interesting story as well.

(00:48:11) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That one was a group of loggers in the Apache National Forest, I think, in Arizona. And at the end of a logging day, they saw this bright light in the trees, and then they tried to chase it, thinking there was a forest fire, right? Something like that. And then one of them got out, and then he appeared to be struck by this thing that was like floating up in the sky. And then they... They left him or something.

(00:48:37) Mike Riso: As I, as I remember it, or as I understand it, Travis was the one who got out, and I think he went up and he touched the craft. And when he touched the craft, he was flung back. Almost like an electrocution type of thing. I'm, you know, just... I probably don't have all the details right, you know, and I don't consider myself a historian. But I know the general gist.

(00:49:00) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:49:00) Mike Riso: And then because of that, you know, they... I can say they, right? The beings took him into the craft, presumably to, you know, not let him die. And that's...

(00:49:10) Justin McMillen: Yeah, that's his claim, right? They, they fixed him up, so, like... And his buddies thought he was dead, and then they all passed, or several of them passed, lie detector tests too, or polygraph tests around this. They, they also thought... just for the audience, so in case they don't know, they also thought that he... they believed that he'd been murdered by his friends.

(00:49:31) Mike Riso: Right. I think that was probably the first... I mean, come on, if you're law enforcement, you would think the same thing too.

(00:49:38) Justin McMillen: Sure. You know, you're also... Yeah. Yeah. You know, aliens, you know, I mean...

(00:49:42) Mike Riso: Yeah, especially, this is what, the 70s. So it's, it was definitely... there was definitely a lot more stigma then than there is now. There's still a lot now, I mean, but it was, it was... yeah, it was in high gear then.

(00:49:55) Justin McMillen: There's a movie out of it. So if people want to check it out, it's called Fire in the Sky. But it documents those, and I think it's, it's not exactly what he claims. It's not exactly accurate to what he said, but, I mean, the basics are there, and it's a freaky movie, so...

(00:50:11) Mike Riso: Yeah, I believe so. But when you're making a movie, though, I mean, you do need to have artistic license in order to make a movie, you know, watchable, you know, whatever.

(00:50:21) Justin McMillen: You, you know, they are going to do some stuff to... Have you, have you interviewed people that have claimed to be abducted?

(00:50:28) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:50:28) Justin McMillen: Really?

(00:50:29) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:50:29) Justin McMillen: What is that like?

(00:50:30) Mike Riso: It's, it's different. So like I said, it's two different hats. So when, when those conversations are being had, I take off my investigator hat. I'm not there to prove you right or wrong. I'm here to listen. And can I help you? How can we help you? A lot of times, just being there to, you know, be the person... like, almost always, like, I've never told anyone this before, or you're the first person I'm telling this to, or something like that. It's like, wow, what a, what an honor that is. And it can be emotional. It's usually traumatic. So it's, it's a completely different thing.

(00:51:08) Justin McMillen: Got it. Wow. So you're kind of helping a person go through a catharsis. They're like healing through it, even maybe.

(00:51:16) Mike Riso: Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's one conversation. Sometimes I'll talk to people for weeks or months. Not every day. But, you know, we'll trade emails or something, have multiple conversations, and talk through things. Occasionally I might refer someone to, like, a regression therapist, if that's what they're looking for, to retrieve memories or whatnot. Or I might refer them to just a group. Like, sometimes people just want to go talk to a group of people, because most of the time, you know, anyone out there listening, if, if you tell any of your friends, like... Yeah, I went through a wall and went into a spaceship, you're probably not going to get a good reaction.

(00:51:54) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's like, this is a way for people to think you're absolutely nuts.

(00:51:58) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:51:59) Justin McMillen: Which is... Yeah, there's a... but again, if you look into it, there's a guy at Harvard, John Mack, I think his name was, that studied the most number of... he was a psychologist and did a ton of work on this.

(00:52:11) Mike Riso: Yep.

(00:52:11) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So for every layer of, like, that seems like bullshit, there's like some pretty serious folks behind it looking at stuff. Which, another theory is that this whole thing's a psyop too. And that the plan is to make every conversation about this seem like complete nonsense so that no one ever really gets to the truth around it. Which is also a crazy idea. So...

(00:52:34) Mike Riso: Well, if that's the end game, it's, it's working quite well, I gotta say.

(00:52:38) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:52:38) Mike Riso: You know, but...

(00:52:39) Justin McMillen: That's all changing now.

(00:52:41) Mike Riso: I do, I do believe that too. But then that goes back to my personal question. Because with the abductions, and I don't know the answer to this yet, but I will soon, because MUFON's about to get a new, new software system, and we're going to be able to analyze data much more than we currently can. But with, with an abduction, it's very rare that that goes along... I think it's very rare that it goes along with a sighting of a craft. And I want to find out specifically how often is a craft seen during an abduction? Are they, are they the same thing? Does one... if there's a craft in the sky, does that mean someone's getting abducted, or are they completely different things? We don't know the answer to that one yet.

(00:53:25) Justin McMillen: When people say they get abducted, what are they seeing?

(00:53:29) Mike Riso: Well, again, there's... the memories are usually not fully there. There's been some... But, are you familiar with the Gray?

(00:53:36) Justin McMillen: And it's, I've got to call it a creature. The Gray creature?

(00:53:40) Mike Riso: You've seen the big eyes...

(00:53:41) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(00:53:43) Mike Riso: That's a very common one. Another common one is a mantis. I don't know if you've heard about that one.

(00:53:50) Justin McMillen: Yeah, that sounds pretty wild.

(00:53:52) Mike Riso: Imagine yourself suddenly confronted with a seven foot tall bug. What do you do?

(00:53:57) Justin McMillen: I'd piss myself, right?

(00:53:59) Mike Riso: Look, imagine yourself, right? Yeah. You know, some people say, like, oh, I want to see them. And, like, well, be careful what you wish for. You know, John Mack coined the phrase ontological shock, when everything you know, everything that you know or believe instantly gets called into question in a split second, and you're just like... your brain melts, because it's like... I guess the best way to describe it would kind of be like, what's that movie with... Was it Jim Carrey? With the... he's living in a world that doesn't exist.

(00:54:34) Justin McMillen: Oh, The Truman Show.

(00:54:35) Mike Riso: Yeah, yeah, it's like that. Probably... I think most people would be able to relate to it. It's like it's the very end, where you just realize it's... everything you've been taught... I don't want to say it's complete bullshit, but in a way, everything you've been taught is just wrong. And it's, you know, and that happens in a split second. And then it can take days, weeks, months for someone to recover from that, or be even able to talk about it.

(00:55:02) Justin McMillen: Yeah. I can imagine if you go through something like that, then afterwards you're just walking around and everything you look at would be different.

(00:55:11) Mike Riso: Yeah, yeah. Your world instantly changes. And, you know, that's why we're here, because there's no one else really to talk to about this without, you know, so, whatever. And there's a lot of times too, I've seen this happen when, when people go through that, they have a heightened awareness and they might think that they are, like, being monitored or followed by bright lights in the sky. And I, and I've seen this happen many, many, many times, where they'll send in some photos or something, and it's like, okay, I can tell exactly what that is, because we've looked at the map and everything. You know, the investigative side is like, you're seeing a planet, Jupiter or Venus or whatever. But just because you're reporting that doesn't take away from what you're talking about over here. I think... I think you think that's something different because of what's going on over here.

(00:56:04) Justin McMillen: Yeah, sure.

(00:56:05) Mike Riso: And that, that's, you know, you got to be open to that, our understanding of it, because it's almost like you're looking over your shoulder all the time. When's it going to happen again? Ironically, most experiencers who are asked the question, what if you could get your experiences to stop, or you could make them stop... Do you want them to stop? Most of the time the answer is no.

(00:56:29) Justin McMillen: Really?

(00:56:30) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:56:30) Justin McMillen: Why is that?

(00:56:31) Mike Riso: I don't know. There's something, there's something they're getting out of it. It might be a curiosity factor, or what? Like, where does this lead? I don't know, but as traumatic as it is, most people wouldn't stop it if they could.

(00:56:47) Justin McMillen: I wonder if it's because there's, like, this chosen thing that people have psychologically. It's like, I'm okay...

(00:56:55) Mike Riso: That could be. That could be. Yeah.

(00:56:57) Justin McMillen: Or it could be... Maybe that it's not a bad experience. I mean, certainly if these things are real and they exist and they haven't destroyed us, then they're probably benevolent and kind and loving. Maybe. But I don't know.

(00:57:11) Mike Riso: I would agree with that, mostly. But at the end of the day, we don't know. Just because they don't eat us doesn't mean that, that, that they're... You know, I don't know. I shouldn't, I shouldn't say that. But, anyways, there's... it's not all traumatic, though, either. There are people who report being shown things or given a tour. For what it's worth. So it's not always like we're going to, you know, shove this thing up your nose and, you know, implant you or something like that. It's not always the case.

(00:57:43) Justin McMillen: What do they... what kind of stuff do they do to people? Medical examinations?

(00:57:47) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(00:57:47) Justin McMillen: Like stick things in their nose and...

(00:57:49) Mike Riso: Oh, that, you know, that's, that's one of them. And, well, I mean, medical examinations...

(00:57:55) Justin McMillen: Okay. So, what, what exactly are we talking about here? Like, like a prostate exam or something?

(00:58:03) Mike Riso: Something kind of like that. I mean, ladies have reported eggs being taken. I've talked to several females now who have... they've mysteriously become pregnant. And then about three months later, they suddenly aren't pregnant anymore. And they know that there wasn't a miscarriage. That's more common than you might think. And it's kind of, kind of on the darker side, maybe, right? Because it's like...

(00:58:30) Justin McMillen: Yeah, it's, it's not consented to.

(00:58:32) Mike Riso: Yeah. And then guys, you know, they get, you know, stuff taken out too.

(00:58:37) Justin McMillen: For getting pregnant, is there like a sexual... between the alien and the person?

(00:58:41) Mike Riso: I mean, I mean, I haven't talked to a whole lot of them, but, you know, a handful, and it's, it's, it's always been like, well, my boyfriend, or her husband, was away at that time, so it couldn't have been... stuff like that.

(00:58:54) Justin McMillen: I see.

(00:58:55) Mike Riso: So, so then now, now we're... it's, you see, this is how many branches the UFO topic has. Now we're talking about potentially a hybridization program, right? I mean, let's go wild.

(00:59:07) Justin McMillen: Is that, is that a thing that people talk about?

(00:59:11) Mike Riso: Yeah, absolutely.

(00:59:12) Justin McMillen: Explain it.

(00:59:13) Mike Riso: So, the theory is that we're sort of so different, the beings and us, that they're trying to bridge the gap with a created being that would, you know, bring both sides to the middle, kind of thing. Some people believe that it is genetic enhancement of sorts. Some people believe that the beings are the ones who created humans.

(00:59:37) Justin McMillen: How do they allegedly do that?

(00:59:39) Mike Riso: Through genetic modification.

(00:59:41) Justin McMillen: Okay. I mean, we're just learning about genetics now, for, for real, right? Because, I forget the name of it. There was an AI documentary I watched on a flight. They were talking about how they were using AI to crack all the genetic problems that, that we're working on and we can't figure out. And now we can, we can do it.

(01:00:02) Mike Riso: So, if there's... I mean, you got to understand, if this is all real, right? These civilizations are going to be 20, 30, 40, 50,000 years into the future. What's humanity going to be like in that time, if we don't blow ourselves up? What are we going to be like then? I mean, we can, we can talk on video across the world instantly now, where 20 years ago that wasn't possible.

(01:00:27) Justin McMillen: Right.

(01:00:27) Mike Riso: You know. So, but anyway, it's genetic modification is the theory behind it.

(01:00:32) Justin McMillen: And are there any stories where... And I'm, I'm serious. It's going to sound like a joke, but are there any stories where the aliens are having actual sex with humans?

(01:00:43) Mike Riso: So no, not in the manner that you would know. It's very... it's a clinical thing.

(01:00:49) Justin McMillen: Okay. Like a lab thing.

(01:00:50) Mike Riso: Yeah, it's a very clinical thing, which is, I don't know... It's probably good, actually. I personally think it's probably good that it's that way, because a lot... you know, forgive me for sounding superficial, but these things don't... You wouldn't want to date them, you know, when you, when you look at them.

(01:01:08) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Look... Luke's thinking about having sex with an alien right now. Yeah, I don't know. That's wild. That's one of the wildest conversations I've ever had.

(01:01:18) Mike Riso: Although there are accounts where... going back to these, like, they're called, like, missing pregnancies. There are some, some people who say that they've, they've met their hybrid children, and they've, they've just, you know, the mother always knows that is their child. Right? So they were, you know, taken again and they're on board a craft and they're shown a child, or they're told, you know, spend some time with the child or whatever. And then...

(01:01:47) Justin McMillen: That's, that's... How do you say it? Ontologically...

(01:01:51) Mike Riso: Yeah, ontological shock.

(01:01:53) Justin McMillen: Like, I, that's... yeah, that goes to a crazy...

(01:01:56) Mike Riso: It could be. It's a disturbing thought for, for many different reasons.

(01:02:01) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah.

(01:02:02) Mike Riso: I mean, it's, and that's where, it's where you get into the, the whole spiritual side of things and your belief system. How, how does that, how does that work with your belief system?

(01:02:14) Justin McMillen: What do you think of that personally?

(01:02:17) Mike Riso: What do I think of, of the idea of an alien being... Are you married?

(01:02:22) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:02:22) Mike Riso: Okay. Forgive me for asking, but...

(01:02:24) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:02:25) Mike Riso: Your wife gets taken. She's impregnated, and then a couple months later, she's not pregnant anymore. And then she tells you, three years later, she saw the child.

(01:02:36) Justin McMillen: Like, I think that would, like, it would mess up our, our whole... I mean, it would be really difficult for me to wrap my head around that. I love her so much, but I don't know if I'd believe it. You know...

(01:02:49) Mike Riso: I'm sorry to even put that thought on you.

(01:02:51) Justin McMillen: No, no, but it's an interesting idea. It's like... And then it would be incredibly disturbing. Like, let's say I did believe it. Then I would feel like she was violated, which there's like a whole protection side of me that would come up, you know. I'd be angry.

(01:03:05) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(01:03:05) Justin McMillen: I mean, I can't even... it's impossible for me to wrap my head around that, Mike. That's...

(01:03:10) Mike Riso: Yeah. That's intense.

(01:03:11) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. And you don't... So you don't... When I asked you about disclosure, you said you don't think it's going to happen.

(01:03:18) Mike Riso: Okay, so I'm going to contradict myself. I think disclosure already happened many times over.

(01:03:24) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:03:24) Mike Riso: What people are wanting, and this is my opinion, is, I guess some people are calling it confirmation. One... I forget the name of the guy. I wish I, I wish I could say the name of this guy. He was, he was, I think, like a general or something. He was high up in the military, and he said, the problem with the UFO world is they can't take yes for an answer. The government already said they exist, and yet everyone's still saying, give me... like, they, they're not accepting that.

(01:03:59) Justin McMillen: Like, that's interesting. Why do you think that is?

(01:04:03) Mike Riso: I can only speculate. But, like, you... people come up with their belief of what it is. And not everybody. I do occasionally run into people who are open to hearing things, or exploring. But, a lot of people, I think, are just looking to confirm what they think they know, or what they know they know, right? And they just want confirmation, and if you give them anything else other than what that is, they reject it.

(01:04:34) Justin McMillen: Yeah. See, that I can see. I think, you know, I was talking to my son about this, and, and I think if you're, if you want to find answers to, to things in general, like, let's just say science, right? Like, let's start with some assumptions. One assumption is that we don't know everything.

(01:04:52) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(01:04:53) Justin McMillen: Okay. So there's still stuff to learn. So, on the edges of what we understand. And so part of being a curious person, or discovering or learning anything, is you gotta, you gotta hang out on the edge. And that edge also is filled with lots of people saying it's crazy. There's a lot of questioning, like, well, that's magic. You know, like things that we thought were magic a long time ago are no longer considered magic because now we understand them. So hanging out on that edge, it could be that the distance between what we... like, somebody could say, yes, it's real, but maybe it's about... it, maybe it's about us understanding it in totality and continually testing it to the point where we could establish it as true, just like all other areas of science. Maybe somebody just saying, yeah, it's real, isn't going to be enough. Maybe we have to have evidence that is irrefutable, corroborated from multiple different places at the same time, not just secondhand witnesses. And, you know, so... interesting. So that's the skeptical side. I mean, it's, it's interesting how all of these stories are somebody saying that someone told them, or they saw a video, but where is the video? Like, where's the clear video? You know what I mean? Why is it so hard to get the crystal clear video, and why is it so hard to get material that we can actually... with how many people have come out now, why is there not... like, and there's allegedly a lot of material. That's what some of these people are saying in these congressional hearings. Why don't we have it? Why isn't it being tested? Or is it, you know, national security?

(01:06:28) Mike Riso: Yeah, that's what they say. Everything is hiding behind national security.

(01:06:34) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:06:34) Mike Riso: It's the best and worst thing that's ever happened. You know, it needs to be there, but it's taken advantage of.

(01:06:42) Justin McMillen: It's being taken advantage of. So if it did all come out, and then say undeniable evidence, tissue samples, bodies, scientists, let's say, I think half the people aren't going to believe it.

(01:06:55) Mike Riso: Sure.

(01:06:56) Justin McMillen: If I were to say, like, come on out, and, and bring an alien right here, half the people would not believe it. So then that was what I was going to ask you, is what do you think would happen to society if people... even if half the people were like, wow, this is real, what would happen?

(01:07:17) Mike Riso: I don't think much of anything. The, the threat... or have you heard the phrase catastrophic disclosure?

(01:07:25) Justin McMillen: That's an interesting phrase.

(01:07:28) Mike Riso: Catastrophic disclosure is the, let's call it the theory, that a whistleblower comes out of nowhere and lays it on us. Like, here you go. Here's the craft. Now what? You know, nothing's going to happen, in my humble opinion, with society at large. What then will happen is everyone starts questioning a lot of the people in authority, and all the people in authority suddenly don't really have much authority. And now we've got an imbalance of the power structure, the way that we know it. Which might be a good reason why we hide behind national security and don't show it, if we have it. Not because the people can't handle it, but because the people who are allegedly hiding it suddenly lose their big fat paychecks. And...

(01:08:18) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(01:08:19) Mike Riso: You know, they can't control people anymore.

(01:08:22) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Well, if, if... okay, let's just say a craft flies out over Los Angeles, sits there, government's like, yep, that's real. We, we, we know it's real. Half the people are like, this is a psychological operation. We're being messed with. So now you got a bunch of people not trusting the government. The other half of the people that do believe it... They believe it's real. They also are... suddenly there's no reason to have a power authority anymore. It's like, oh, there's something greater, more powerful than you that just showed up here. So that's an interesting idea too. Yeah. If it's, if it's something that we have reverse engineered and we control, it's out of Lockheed and it flies out, then people are like, wait, the U.S. government is not in control anymore. That's not going to work.

(01:09:11) Mike Riso: So, you know, that takes us right back to the, the start of the modern day story, where the Army, Army Air Field, before the Air Force... but it's basically always been the Air Force. The Air Force's job is to protect us from things in the sky. And what we've learned is that they can't. Now, it's interesting that they've openly admitted it, and nobody seems to really care so much. But, you know, that kind of plays into what you just said.

(01:09:39) Justin McMillen: Yeah, that part's a little freaky. I've seen... I mean, definitely heard that from many people. I mean, you see people sitting there, testify under oath and saying there's things in the sky that we have no ability to control whatsoever. They outmaneuver us in every way. And yeah, it's interesting, the idea that it may not happen. I think you might be right. I... because if you think about it, if it did happen, just the consequences.

(01:10:09) Mike Riso: You know, it's, it's kind of like... If you want it to happen in a specific way, you're not going to be satisfied until you get the thing that you want.

(01:10:23) Justin McMillen: Exactly.

(01:10:23) Mike Riso: Yeah, yeah. Everything has to be, you know... So in that regard, I don't think it's ever going to happen. And I also, I do believe it already has happened. And it's just like, okay, let's just throw it out there.

(01:10:37) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:10:37) Mike Riso: Without any fanfare. We don't need the red carpet, lights, and, you know, the spotlights, presidential announcement. We've already, we've already thrown it out there. Here you go. This is real. Talk amongst yourselves. What does it mean to us?

(01:10:52) Justin McMillen: Yeah, that's the idea. That's an interesting... Yeah. It's like, we've been telling you guys this. I think that's what, like, Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp keep saying, is like, it's, it's not a matter of, like, when. It's... they're already saying it. It's... they've already said... everybody in the government's already admitted this is real. It's happening. We're past that at this point. I guess maybe it would be having some beings from some other planet show up unannounced to the government and demonstrating their dominance over the world. That would probably change everyone really quick.

(01:11:27) Mike Riso: Potentially. Yeah. But if I may, you're, you're making the human assumption that if such a thing were to happen, those beings would exert dominance over us. What if, what if they don't?

(01:11:38) Justin McMillen: Yeah. I don't mean dominance... Yeah, yeah, it's the wrong way to put it. It would be like... Have you seen Arrival?

(01:11:43) Mike Riso: I'm pretty sure that...

(01:11:44) Justin McMillen: Yeah, with the, like, the squiggly thing.

(01:11:46) Mike Riso: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:11:48) Justin McMillen: I mean, it was kind of like... I mean, where, where something appears on the planet and everybody sees it and they're like, what's this? And it's across multiple countries. So only dominant in the fact that it's there, it exists, and there's just...

(01:12:00) Mike Riso: Okay. I misunderstood what you were saying.

(01:12:03) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I know. I, I think I said it... it would, it would come off that way, but that's what I mean. Just demonstrating that they can do whatever they want, pretty much.

(01:12:12) Mike Riso: Yeah. It's crazy.

(01:12:13) Justin McMillen: Pretty much. Oh, man. Well, look at my sheet here. So there's a couple things I want to make sure I was able to ask.

(01:12:22) Mike Riso: Yeah. There's something else I wanted to... somewhere along the line, I wanted to throw out something there, and I forget what it was.

(01:12:31) Justin McMillen: I don't know. We've almost covered everything on here. I'm getting better at this.

(01:12:37) Mike Riso: Awesome.

(01:12:37) Justin McMillen: Well, actually, what about people... this is practical. So if somebody sees something, how do they get a hold of you?

(01:12:44) Mike Riso: Oh, yes. Perfect. Thank you. So MUFON.com. MUFON.com is the main site. It doesn't matter where you are in the world, you can report it there and it will get routed to a local investigator. If there is a local investigator. There's also another team that covers areas that don't have local investigators. So we basically have the world covered in one way or another. That's where you would go, whether it's a sighting or an experience. And while I'm at it, if you're interested in becoming a UFO investigator, anywhere in the world, MUFON is always looking for those too. There's no pay, but it's very fun stuff. But you do have to be inquisitive and, you know, good with technology and, you know, wanting to...

(01:13:26) Justin McMillen: They train you?

(01:13:27) Mike Riso: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's, it's, it's a whole process to go through.

(01:13:32) Justin McMillen: Are there certain areas that get a lot more action than others?

(01:13:37) Mike Riso: In a way, there are. I think that's because of population and weather. California, Texas and Florida are in the top three every month for number of reports. We get, like, anywhere from 30 to 60 reports on average per month in the state of California. And that's pretty consistent. It's probably 60/40, like 60% is up north and 40% down here. But we still, I mean, almost on a daily basis, something's coming in in SoCal, or California at large.

(01:14:07) Justin McMillen: And you get stuff out in the channel? Like, that's a big area, right in between here and Catalina.

(01:14:13) Mike Riso: Potentially. Yeah. And when I, when I say stuff is coming in, I mean reports. I don't mean UFOs.

(01:14:19) Justin McMillen: Okay. Gotcha.

(01:14:20) Mike Riso: But, but, yeah, Catalina has got some stuff happening here and there. It's kind of like a hotspot. There's areas out in the desert that are sort of hotspot-ish. Up north, Mount Shasta gets a lot of reports.

(01:14:35) Justin McMillen: I've heard that.

(01:14:37) Mike Riso: You know, and again, now, now we're going back to me personally, like, you know, are those things physical? Right? Or like the Skinwalker Ranch series, which I like. You know, I'm a card carrying Insider member since the beginning. I love those guys. But, you know, the orb comes out of the mountain. Okay, it's a UAP, but it's not my definition of a UFO.

(01:15:00) Justin McMillen: Yeah, sure. You know, I mean, if a person wants to see a UFO, is there a way to be able to see them? Like, what if someone out there is listening and they're like, I really want to see one of these things. How do they go about seeing one? Besides looking up in the sky?

(01:15:16) Mike Riso: There... you know what, I'm going to say it this way. There allegedly is a way to do that, but I'm not going to tell you what that is, because if, if you're not ready to experience that and you do that procedure, you could mess yourself up. And now we're getting into the consciousness aspect of things.

(01:15:40) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(01:15:41) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(01:15:41) Justin McMillen: So you're not going to say. But if people could Google that...

(01:15:46) Mike Riso: If, if they're curious enough, they can probably find stuff, but also be careful what your sources are. You know, I'll, I'll give a shout out to Kevin Kwan, who wrote a book called Consciousness and UFOs. I think I'm probably messing that title up, but the answer would be in there. But he cautions you very clearly, like, don't try this until you've done this other thing first, because he has seen people do it and, and get really messed up.

(01:16:17) Justin McMillen: When you say get messed up, how does it mess... mentally? Like permanently?

(01:16:21) Mike Riso: It could take a long time to, you know, straighten yourself out from it.

(01:16:26) Justin McMillen: Really?

(01:16:27) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(01:16:27) Justin McMillen: That's crazy. Have you... do you know how to do it?

(01:16:31) Mike Riso: I, I understand the general gist. I've, I've attempted a couple of times, but not to the extent that was outlined. Okay, here's a funny story. With a friend. We were in Landers. Are you familiar with that?

(01:16:46) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:16:47) Mike Riso: And I said, okay, let's do this thing. It's just, you know, just me and my friend. I would never do it with strangers. By the way, there's groups that meet. God bless you. I'm not going to go with people I don't know and do this, because I don't know what your intentions are or whatever. I don't want to mix my, my juju with your juju.

(01:17:04) Justin McMillen: Right. Sure.

(01:17:05) Mike Riso: But, you know, we do this thing, and, and then I see, like, a really bright satellite, and it's like, oh, wow, that's cool. It's a satellite. And then it becomes even brighter and, like, holy shit. And then it dims down to being just bright. And then eventually it, you know... I was just like... I said to my friend, if I didn't know better, I would tell you... I would tell you that we just called that in and it did a power up for us. But what it was is a satellite that did a solar flare, because it caught the sun in the right way. It happened to be around that sweet spot, two hours after sunset, when it happened. And the reason I'm saying that, even though it was coincidence from when we, you know, projected it out...

(01:17:49) Justin McMillen: Right.

(01:17:50) Mike Riso: It didn't do anything that a satellite couldn't do.

(01:17:53) Justin McMillen: So on one hand, it's like, you're such a bummer. No, the person was, was more, more skeptical anyway.

(01:18:00) Mike Riso: Sure.

(01:18:00) Justin McMillen: But that, I trust you more now. But I could see how someone would, like, if you're not fully open minded like that, I could see how...

(01:18:09) Mike Riso: Similar to the way in which I did it. But that's, that's a little bit different than what your question actually was, and what the, what the procedure actually is.

(01:18:20) Justin McMillen: Okay, so that's something different than that.

(01:18:23) Mike Riso: It's similar, but, but a little bit different.

(01:18:25) Justin McMillen: Wow. That's a, that's an intense... What about areas more likely to see them? In the desert, Mount Shasta?

(01:18:32) Mike Riso: Yeah. I mean, on one hand, it's, it's going to be anywhere, right? But, the darker... Okay. Well, that's the other thing. Why, why are most of them seen... and I don't even know if most of them... Of course I should know, but I don't. I gotta look that up. Is it daytime or nighttime? But, yeah, anyways, the more rural areas, you know, maybe, maybe more likely to see stuff, interestingly enough. Why, I don't know.

(01:19:00) Justin McMillen: You think... So, you know, the conversation around... you said it earlier, reptilians and Grays. And do you believe that they're like different species and that they...

(01:19:14) Mike Riso: I guess I would say yes, I do believe that there's different species. There's been an... okay, so there's been a lot of people who've reported the different visual representations of the creatures. Right? So why is that? You know, so that's... so they exist because they've been reported.

(01:19:35) Justin McMillen: Right. Are they fighting amongst each other?

(01:19:38) Mike Riso: Yeah, I don't know. That's a very human way to look at things.

(01:19:42) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:19:42) Mike Riso: Like, early... like, it's, it's natural for us to think that because that's what we do. But if we make it 25,000 years from now, are we really going to still be fighting everything all the time? Or are we going to be open to the other person's point of view, even if we disagree with it? You know, so I, I disagree with the alien war element, but I am in agreement that there are likely multiple different species, for lack of a better term.

(01:20:12) Justin McMillen: Have you, Mike, have you ever talked to somebody that knew a lot about this subject, that had tremendous amounts of credibility because of their background? Or maybe they were in the government, that talked to you but can't talk to the public? Have you ever experienced that? Have you ever been with somebody who's like, I know some things, and told you, but will never come out about it?

(01:20:39) Mike Riso: I don't know how to answer that one. Like, maybe yes, maybe no. Probably not to the extent that I think that you're asking. But I have talked to some people who have said some stuff to me that they won't say publicly. But that doesn't necessarily mean, like, they're, you know, the vice president or anything like that, you know.

(01:20:58) Justin McMillen: But it's never... because I think, it's what happens, I think, with some people is that they'll end up in the room, a room with somebody who basically says, yeah, this is all real. I'll never say it out loud. You know, they'll spill the beans. Maybe they'll even violate their own security, you know, oath. Which then reinforces the, the, the public figure person. So, you know...

(01:21:24) Mike Riso: Okay, so you just... Okay. So, if I go back, I don't know, 20 years, maybe. I was working in an office in Pasadena, and one of the people who were in my office... it was just me and that person. And for whatever reason, that person comes over to my desk and says, Mike, I want you to know that we're not alone in this universe. And then turned around and walked away like nothing had happened. I had never spoken a word about ETs or UFOs at all in that environment. There's no reason for that person to have said what they said.

(01:21:59) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(01:21:59) Mike Riso: And the spouse of that person had a very specific job at JPL for a good long time. And I was just like, why did you tell me that? And I know who you're married to, and I know what they do. I'm not going to say, because it's so specific, then I will have named them. But that was pretty weird and wild to me. So, I mean, in a way that's... I don't know if that's an example or not, but...

(01:22:36) Justin McMillen: Yeah, that is. I mean, I think I know of a person... I can't say. So this is like thirdhand information, so whatever. But I know of a person who works a lot with military at, like, a very high level, like, specifically operators. So, like, Tier One and Tier Two. And there was a crystal clear story told about our, the U.S. military's ability to use craft, to this person. And it was disclosed to them, and the person believed it.

(01:23:11) Mike Riso: Okay. So what do you mean by that? Like, our ability to use craft, as in to call in craft, or to, like...

(01:23:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah, that we have them.

(01:23:21) Mike Riso: Okay.

(01:23:21) Justin McMillen: And use them. I mean, whether that's true or not, I don't know.

(01:23:24) Mike Riso: Did they go into detail? Did they...

(01:23:26) Justin McMillen: I mean, I'm curious, because there's a theory... I talked to somebody who talked to that person. So it's like...

(01:23:32) Mike Riso: Yeah, it's...

(01:23:32) Justin McMillen: That's, that's how all these damn stories are most of the time.

(01:23:35) Mike Riso: Yeah. But if you... Okay, so here's the thing. If you really want to get into it, I think everyone in the world should be a UFO investigator, because that's when you really get into it. Like, when you're talking directly to some of these folks.

(01:23:49) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(01:23:49) Mike Riso: And it's not, it's not secondhand or thirdhand. But anyway, there's a theory that the operation of the craft is more based on consciousness. Like, you just think of where you want to go, and then boom, you're there. Which is also, you know, wild stuff.

(01:24:03) Justin McMillen: Totally. You know what? If that were to be true, that would be awesome. We wouldn't need airplanes anymore.

(01:24:09) Mike Riso: Yeah. You know...

(01:24:10) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And we would, we would, we would have figured out space travel.

(01:24:14) Mike Riso: So that's the other thing, going back to, you know, what you're saying too. And I probably... I'm sometimes self-conscious... I'm using "the theory" a lot. Like, there's a theory, right? But it's true. There's a theory that, if this were to be made public, and let's say President Trump comes out and says, yes, it is real. And by the way, ta-da! Here's your spaceship. It won't happen overnight, but what that entails, it tells us, is that, like, we don't need to use the fuels or the energies that we use now, and it's all obsolete. There's a lot of people without work. Which is interesting in a way too, that I, I don't know how... Yeah, but AI... and AI's emergence, I do believe, is intertwined in some manner with UFOs and UFO disclosure.

(01:24:57) Justin McMillen: How do you mean?

(01:24:58) Mike Riso: Well, now we're talking about, like, Elon and, and folks like this... universal basic income or universal high income, because the robots are going to take over and do all this shit... We don't want to do. Great. That sounds great. But how does that actually work in the real world? Like, there's been studies where, like, a town has been given... everyone's got a million bucks. Well, it didn't go well, you know. So...

(01:25:25) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Elon doesn't understand that human beings need to be necessary. It's part of our DNA. Like, it's hardwired into us to exist in a community and to contribute to that community. In fact, it's so hardwired into us that if we're not contributing, we get mentally and emotionally sick, because our DNA knows that we have to contribute. And that's how we got here. Like, we bred the genes that don't do that out of the gene pool. So when everyone has what they need and all their needs are met and they're not contributing, their life has no meaning. And then suddenly a lot of sick people. So you're still going to have the drive, the want. We all have a want inside of us, which is like how we, you know, collect the most coconuts. Eventually it's collecting money to survive, whatever it is. If you give everybody everything, they still have that drive. And so they're going to put it somewhere. And will they put it in creation, or destruction, or indulgence, or gluttony?

(01:26:19) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(01:26:19) Justin McMillen: And Elon is not a... yeah, he doesn't understand enough about humans. I mean, that's a fact. He may know a lot about rockets. He may know a lot about all this stuff, but he's, he himself is not normal. So his own anecdotal understanding of the world is totally based on an n of one, weird, strange... And then he's so... And I like him. I drive a Tesla. I mean, I'm, I like Elon Musk. People know that. But he's so removed from society that, yeah, the idea that he would be able to have any understanding... And then, what is he... is he not going to work? Like, what if he said, oh, just be a good boy, sit in there, and I'll just give you lots of money? It's like, that dude's not going to stop working.

(01:27:01) Mike Riso: I think he would absolutely continue working. I mean, he doesn't have to work a day in his life, but yet he does.

(01:27:06) Justin McMillen: And I know he's, he's the best example of why his idea won't work. Do you know what I mean?

(01:27:10) Mike Riso: No, I get what you're saying. Yeah. Hopefully people would go... let's pray, and it happens, right? Hopefully people go into the arts, and then they, and they go on quests like, like what we're doing right now.

(01:27:21) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:27:21) Mike Riso: But, but we know that not everyone's going to do that, you know. So...

(01:27:25) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's what I would think. You know, it's like, people play guitar on the weekends. They learn to play guitar, right? Because they love to play guitar. They're not getting paid to play guitar, but they'll get obsessed with trying to learn how to do something, or play a game, or whatever it is. There's an obsession with learning and creating or expressing, connecting, interacting, winning. That doesn't have to be done in the same system as the way that we make money. That can be separate, can be, you know... maybe then we'll learn to enjoy just being in the moment.

(01:27:57) Mike Riso: Well, what if... okay, well, what if, what if money was the answer to everything now? Like, it's, it's the cause of and the solution to all the world's problems, right?

(01:28:07) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:28:08) Mike Riso: Because I think in a lot of regards, that is why we're maybe being held back from, you know, the disclosure that people want, you know, because of the financial system and, you know, the people who will lose their paychecks if the beans are spilled. And, I mean, I'm a capitalist, don't get me wrong. But, you know, there's something to be said about your efforts. You know, money is energy, right? And your efforts is, is what you get out of it. And...

(01:28:33) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:28:34) Mike Riso: You know, but at the same time, there's unfortunately people out there who just... that's all that they care about, and they're willing to do bad things to good people in order to get it. And, you know, that's potentially the, the main problem here. So what would it be like? I don't know. What would it be like, a world without money? Could we, could we survive? What do you think?

(01:28:54) Justin McMillen: I think we can. I just think it's... I think we got to pause and we got to, like, look at... We have to look at the fact that we're beings, and we're like a system that evolved a certain way. We have to be really honest with ourselves about how we got here. Because I think money is a mirror. It's a reflection. It's a system that was created to manage this hierarchical need for humans to contribute or survive. And, I mean, that's all it is. It's just this extension of that. Even capitalism, all these things are attempting to be extensions of just the natural order of the way that humans interact. And, so I think if you remove that, you still have all the behaviors that humans have naturally. We are naturally built to push ourselves forward to achieve. And that was there so that we would push to collect as much as we could, so we didn't die. I mean, that's, at the end of the day... We have this dopaminergic system that says more and more and more and more and more. Why does it say more? Because sometimes we didn't have enough. And so we had to collect more. We had to acquire more because we had to make it through famines. And, and then the other side of it said, I need to be friends with Mike, because if I don't kill an antelope tonight and Mike does, I want Mike to share with me. And so there's also this hardwired thing in us that we need to have these interconnected relationships that are totally contingent upon our survival. Our survival is based on having a relationship with somebody else. This is why... And then, those who didn't do that died off. And we evolved to be the best connectors based on shared common goods. And then we evolved to gather as much as we possibly could so that we didn't die. And we have whole systems in our brain hardwired for this. So you take away human connection and people start feeling sick, because there's a signal that says, I'm going to die. I don't have a place in the world. I don't have a connection to the tribe. And, but, you know, and then you get panicky. That's social anxiety. That's what causes people to get really, really sick. And then the other side is, if we don't have something to strive for, that drive is still there. I mean, that's all I do. I deal with human drive. Like, when human drive goes completely wrong, you end up with people just taking drugs, that are exogenous substances that satiate that drive. I mean, that, that is addiction and mental... I mean, that's, that's what happens. So, yeah. So if you didn't have money, if you weren't striving for something, and people didn't have a place that was interdependent, meaning my actions affect your actions and we all need to collaborate... If we didn't have that, we'll see a huge part of the gene pool die off. And then probably people who don't give a shit about others and are the most unmotivated will be the ones that live.

(01:31:46) Mike Riso: Interesting.

(01:31:46) Justin McMillen: Because the ones who are motivated are going to be, like, pushing, and then they're going to do cocaine for the first time, and they're going to be like, wow, that does it. I'm just going to keep doing that. Or they're going to watch a ton of porn, or have a lot of sex, or do anything that indulges that part of themselves. That's what I think would happen.

(01:32:05) Mike Riso: So then why is it that the lazy ones would survive?

(01:32:07) Justin McMillen: Because they're okay with just having things given. Like, if they were okay... like, okay, I don't have a lot of drive. If you're a low drive person, you're going to be okay with everything, because you're not even going to be motivated to go out and take what money you have and spend a lot of it. It's just like, I'm cool chillin'.

(01:32:25) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(01:32:26) Justin McMillen: You know, it's the ones that are the most driven that are going to die off the quickest. This is a terrible conversation.

(01:32:33) Mike Riso: Well, it, it, it touches everything. I... when you were talking there, I remembered what I was going to say earlier. So this is a great conversation.

(01:32:41) Justin McMillen: This section of the conversation was just like...

(01:32:44) Mike Riso: Well, no, but I mean, that's really the UFO conversation, that it can get dark. I mean, we've, we touched upon a couple places, but it gets darker than what we've even talked about.

(01:32:55) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:32:55) Mike Riso: If you... I mean, I'm not saying that it's, it's like this bad, evil thing. I'm just saying that there's different offshoots. But anyway, the phenomenon, as we call it, it reflects you back at you. So going back to when you were talking about, oh, is there a way to, to see a UFO or whatever? And I said, you know... I didn't really answer that. It's because you have to be sort of, like, ready to, to do that. And if you're not, you might not realize that you've got some dark stuff about you, and then you do this thing, and then there's that mirror showing you you. And are you ready to see who you really are? Now, that ties in perfectly with the thing that I wanted to say earlier, which was, there's been experiencers who have reported the beings said, we are you and you are us.

(01:33:51) Justin McMillen: What do you think that means?

(01:33:54) Mike Riso: I don't know 100%. Garry Nolan, I think, is the guy who has the theory that a million years from now, we will look like the Grays. So maybe... maybe they're us from the future. There's another thought in the experiencer sphere that the people who have these encounters made some type of an agreement prior to incarnating on Earth. Which, I know that phrase, for some folks, depending on your beliefs, you might, you know, be put off by it, but let's just go with it. And that the creatures on the other side potentially might be you, in a different form, in an alternate reality or universe. So in a way, they're potentially helping you by helping themselves, but you view it differently. Like, if we were to go outside and see, like, a dog that was injured, our natural instinct would be to help it. The dog's first reaction is going to be that we're probably trying to harm it. It's going to defend itself. But then it might realize that we're trying to help it, you know? So that's, it's kind of the same thing with the abduction type of stuff, where in a way that isn't too different than us monitoring the monkeys in the jungle.

(01:35:16) Justin McMillen: Sure. Yeah, sure.

(01:35:18) Mike Riso: With the dart.

(01:35:19) Justin McMillen: Yeah. You know, the idea... I think one of the, one of the ideas that seems like science could back it pretty easily is just the idea that in the future, at some point on the timeline of humanity, we get to a point where we're able to cut through time and space. So our future descendants cut through time and space and appear in the now, and check us out. I mean, that doesn't seem... I don't know enough about physics to understand the theories of... I think time traveling into the future is possible, and that into the past is something that they say is not possible, or...

(01:36:00) Mike Riso: That's, that's above my pay grade as well.

(01:36:03) Justin McMillen: But, but if, if... I mean, I think we're getting there. The physics and the math is there on time travel. I think it's all future, but I don't know. I don't know for sure. So if somebody sees this and knows, let's put it in the comments, please do.

(01:36:18) Mike Riso: But I mean, why not? Or why not... Maybe, maybe it is in the past. What if it was in the past and they just travel to now? And actually we're seeing beings from the past that are visiting the future, and the future is now.

(01:36:31) Justin McMillen: And remember, you don't want to mess things up too much, because if you do, you could screw up the future of humanity. So you, you know, just like Back to the Future. So it's like they've got to be really elusive, these Tic Tacs that show up and, you know, bump something in one direction to change the future of everything. You know, I don't know. All this reptilians and tall white Nordics and Grays, and it's just insane. It's insane. It's insane that these words are coming out of the mouths of, like, top officials.

(01:37:04) Mike Riso: Isn't it? It's absolutely fascinating.

(01:37:07) Justin McMillen: Right? I mean, I'm risking being completely labeled as a kook to even be talking about this, and it's... but it's also... Yeah, again, just, I challenge you. Just Google it. It's not, it's not a... yeah. Some of the people that we trust with the highest degree of government security are talking about the same subject.

(01:37:29) Mike Riso: Yeah.

(01:37:30) Justin McMillen: So this has been really cool.

(01:37:31) Mike Riso: It has. Thank you very much.

(01:37:33) Justin McMillen: My pleasure.

(01:37:34) Mike Riso: Likewise.

(01:37:35) Justin McMillen: Yeah.