Transcript

(00:00:12) Justin McMillen: I want to start with a question about... and I think about this a lot, because I think when people get caught up in the system, they go to prison, which is supposed to be rehabilitating. I think a lot of times people come out worse than when they went in. What do you think about that?

(00:00:36) Steve Kim: That's a loaded question. But what I will say is, what we don't see is the impact on prisoners, on people psychologically. You know, I've seen a lot of bad that's happened, you know, the stories I hear of what people experience in prison.

(00:00:56) Steve Kim: And I'm not talking about should they go, should they not go. I'm just saying once they arrive, a prisoner is [...] unseen. And I would say that one of the horrible things I see is the psychological impact it has on people once they get out, which impacts their families, their communities, and all of us. And so, and so some people will say prison [...].

(00:01:24) Steve Kim: But I guess [...] as well. So that could be good for that person. But I think with the activity that's in there, there's a lot [...] that we don't always see right away.

(00:01:39) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I think about this because this happens in all sorts of different cultural situations.

(00:01:48) Justin McMillen: Right. You can take somebody that grew up with like a super vanilla, simple background and throw them in prison for five years, and they could come out a completely different person. And even though the prison was intended to reform them. Maybe, I don't know. Do you think that's what prison is for? Or is it actually for correcting people, or is it just punishing people?

(00:02:16) Steve Kim: Well, this is, you know, [...] but prison systems are so large now, with thousands of people in them, with human beings trying to oversee other human beings, with this container of just a lot happening.

(00:02:31) Justin McMillen: Mhm.

(00:02:31) Steve Kim: And I do think that people get help. There's programming, there's different things, but there's also a prison subculture that happens that is very damaging and very traumatic. Anytime you look at big systems, it's hard to contain and to make sure that that system is completely rehabilitative. So we've got a lot of work to do. We've made some progress, but definitely we have a lot of work to do, because people are entering traumatized and coming out even more deeply traumatized.

(00:03:06) Justin McMillen: Wow. So, I mean, that's a crazy idea.

(00:03:09) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah.

(00:03:09) Justin McMillen: Like, we're trying to do something. So it's like we agreed as a country, we have these laws, with police officers that are making sure people [...].

(00:03:19) Steve Kim: Right.

(00:03:19) Justin McMillen: And with judges there. So you broke the law, you go to prison. But it sounds like what you're saying is people are coming out of prison worse.

(00:03:29) Steve Kim: Yeah. I think, you know, I've been thinking about... people are always asking, how do we keep people out of jail? How do we help people? And how do we help those people? These days, I think we actually have the answer on how to help those people. It's all the things that actually keep us all out of jail.

(00:03:49) Steve Kim: It's the people who have that proximity to, you know, the school-to-prison pipeline, and the risk factors that make it more possible that somebody would probably end up in prison. It's all the things that all of us as human beings need, all the things we want for our kids that keep us all out of prison.

(00:04:10) Steve Kim: It's things like support, employment, mentorship, and the biggest thing is safety. [...] Everybody needs a community or a circle of safety around them. It's what we all want for our kids. I've never met a parent who says, you know, I don't want my kids to be safe. You know, nobody says, you know, I want my kids to be in danger.

(00:04:37) Steve Kim: And the truth is, in my opinion, a large percentage of people in prison didn't have that as children and had to learn how to survive. And unfortunately, that access to survival leads to illegal activity, which, you know, we want to have community safety. We can't have kids on our streets [...]. It's a very complex question that society has [...].

(00:05:02) Justin McMillen: Wow. You said so much about this. I'm so glad you're here.

(00:05:07) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:05:08) Justin McMillen: There's a good conversation [...] the way you're thinking about this. So I think what you're saying is that if we go upstream, there's probably a...

(00:05:20) Steve Kim: Oh. Oh, yeah. It's good.

(00:05:22) Justin McMillen: ...and we get to look at what's causing people to even end up in prison in the first place.

(00:05:29) Justin McMillen: And you're saying things like safety, like basic needs, are not being met. And then that, I guess, would... So that's probably why there's populations, more [...] impoverished. I mean, these are obvious things, I guess.

(00:05:48) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:05:49) Justin McMillen: [...] Even just, like, the feds versus state prisons. Living standards.

(00:05:55) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:05:55) Justin McMillen: And, and for those things.

(00:05:58) Justin McMillen: But yeah, that's an unbelievable thing. This is another controversial question, and I'm sure you can dig into it. Do you believe that people who commit crimes are... do you think there's somebody being sort of inherently bad?

(00:06:20) Steve Kim: You know, that's a controversial question too. Thoughts on that? I've got a long history. Like many of us, I've lived different lives, right.

(00:06:35) Steve Kim: People [...] just one singular road. It's like, okay, I've lived different lives, and part of that life was working on high-profile cases. For, for [...]. I've got a whole story.

(00:06:50) Justin McMillen: High drama?

(00:06:51) Steve Kim: Sure. So you don't know about my history. You know, I got on drugs, got sober, had one felony conviction, because it was a baggie of meth, and I don't want to get [...], but the felony created barriers for many years.

(00:07:09) Steve Kim: A job. And long story short, I found my way through education. So UCI and then USC, and there's a lot of history behind that. But while I was at UCI, I met a friend, and nobody would hire me. And my friend Jesse was the smartest guy, [...] attorney [...] UCI. And he's like, do you want to work on these cases?

(00:07:34) Steve Kim: And I was like, yeah, I'm like, I don't really have a job. [...]

(00:07:43) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah.

(00:07:44) Steve Kim: And I [...] trauma, how to figure out why somebody would commit certain crimes. And I was very sensitive, because in some of these cases, there's no justification for this type of harm.

(00:08:09) Steve Kim: You know, I mean, it's horrible. Like, my heart goes out to the victims' families. And I don't want them to [...]. Anyways, my job was to try to figure out why somebody would commit a heinous crime, and then try to make sense of it.

(00:08:25) Justin McMillen: Can you, can you give us some background on that? I'm curious.

(00:08:29) Steve Kim: Yes. And so in death penalty cases, once a person is charged, we start looking at mitigating factors and aggravating factors. The district attorney side will look at aggravating factors, because there's so much of it. You know, this person's a monster. This person's the worst of the worst. We're charging them for the death penalty. So the defense says, well, [...] represent the client.

(00:09:00) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:09:00) Steve Kim: Let's just figure out what happened.

(00:09:03) Steve Kim: So what's the person do? What was the situation? So many cases.

(00:09:10) Justin McMillen: Okay, so you said you [...] worked on this one? High profile?

(00:09:17) Steve Kim: Oh, well... Okay, so this one [...] where, multiple murders, [...] five deaths, somebody in the county, and horrible. Like, seven years to prepare for this case and [...] for the trial.

(00:09:37) Steve Kim: So just figure out what happened. And again, I don't, I don't want to make excuses, because there's no excuse.

(00:09:46) Justin McMillen: Of course.

(00:09:47) Steve Kim: So, explanations.

(00:09:48) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah.

(00:09:49) Steve Kim: So it is, I, [...]. I'm not for [...] people in this way, of course. So then in death penalty work, I had to really challenge myself and say, okay, I'm not going to make an excuse,

(00:10:02) Steve Kim: but I am laser focused on finding the explanation of why somebody would do something like this. So that was my job. So for me, I went three generations back. The school records, the health records, and brain experts, cultural experts, and...

(00:10:20) Justin McMillen: And, I guess, publishing papers on this?

(00:10:23) Steve Kim: No, really, like, private, like...

(00:10:25) Justin McMillen: So that's where, you know... you seen the show Mindhunter?

(00:10:30) Steve Kim: I don't know what that is.

(00:10:31) Steve Kim: But I want to see that.

(00:10:33) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So they were trying to find serial killers, and they decided to bring in profilers and look at psychology and see a pattern and why these people exist.

(00:10:43) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:10:43) Justin McMillen: You'd love that.

(00:10:44) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:10:44) Justin McMillen: It's so fun. It's a great show. It's similar to you.

(00:10:48) Steve Kim: Yeah. So my conclusion on that work is, you know, I'd sit with folks who are charged just like this, you know, and just interviewing...

(00:10:56) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:10:57) Steve Kim: Okay. [...] connecting with them for years, and multiple cases, and...

(00:11:09) Steve Kim: I have not met the worst of the worst. You know, I've met folks who are severely mentally ill, and I've met folks who made the worst mistake of their, their lives.

(00:11:23) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:11:23) Steve Kim: And then they [...]. So, you know, I've met those folks. So to answer your question, I believe people are good. I believe all people are good.

(00:11:35) Justin McMillen: Mhm.

(00:11:35) Steve Kim: I believe they're extremely mentally ill. I believe people make horrible choices. And, and then even in the work, I'll share a little bit later about Project Kinship. We've seen thousands of youth and adults who've been incarcerated. I'm still looking for the worst of the worst. I've not found one person. And then my faith. My faith in them... For me, I believe that God doesn't create that way.

(00:12:04) Steve Kim: I believe that we all struggle in this life. Many of us are born into [...]. So [...] heal as much [...]. But I think about God's love, how expansive it is, where [...] Jesus offers them salvation in paradise.

(00:12:34) Steve Kim: And so my faith, when I look at that part of it, it lines up with Scripture telling us about the way that people... that nobody is beyond redemption.

(00:12:49) Justin McMillen: Amen. Yeah. So, I think this... I struggle with this a lot. My whole life, I've always felt like it's just not possible for [...] a child.

(00:13:02) Justin McMillen: Right? It's like they're perfect little beings. And it's like people grow up and things happen, and then maybe the product of their life is horrific and they kill people. Maybe. And, like, I love how you clarified there's no excuse for that.

(00:13:19) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:13:20) Justin McMillen: But it's like, how does that happen? And is there something innately evil? I've had people in here, like, the warfighters, like the military guys, you know, and there are people who have seen stuff and experienced things where they talk about the true nature of evil. And, yeah, you know, so my mind has been shifted on it a little bit, but it's, day to day,

(00:13:45) Justin McMillen: like, really hard for me. Yeah. Now, to see somebody and just notice the good that's there. Even in the worst. When you [...] these people, were they diagnostically ill, or...?

(00:13:59) Steve Kim: Both. Both. Yeah. So a lot of folks have not been diagnosed. For me, I mean, what sane person would do something like that, just so off the charts.

(00:14:11) Steve Kim: You know, so, is that evil? Evil acts, for sure. You know, but I think evil wins when we don't give credit to where it comes from versus the person that [...] these acts, you know. And so I think that it's horrible, you know, and it's horrible. I don't want to take away from our veterans, from our folks who have done the work, you know, [...].

(00:14:39) Steve Kim: And [...] who have grown up in the neighborhood who've seen horrific things. I don't want to take away from that. From my experience, I've seen people heal and transform in the right settings, and the worst of the worst have now become ones who serve the community, who are now healing the community.

(00:15:03) Steve Kim: I've seen it hundreds of times.

(00:15:05) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's, that's... you're speaking my language there. Have you seen Dead Man Walking?

(00:15:12) Steve Kim: I've seen that, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

(00:15:15) Justin McMillen: That was one of the most... yeah. That one, I mean, I was in high school, and it probably was...

(00:15:22) Steve Kim: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure.

(00:15:24) Justin McMillen: Okay. [...]

(00:15:25) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah.

(00:15:25) Justin McMillen: But that movie, I remember thinking, he did this terrible thing and he should definitely pay for this.

(00:15:33) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:15:33) Justin McMillen: And then you have, like, the, the... I think she was a nun that he's talking to. She's trying to get him... But then he, like, experiences redemption. And he goes, you [...] racism, death, and like... yeah. If anyone hasn't seen this movie, it's definitely worth checking out.

(00:15:52) Justin McMillen: I'm not going to stay on this one subject long. But, you know, it's kind of cool, actually, when there's [...], right? We hear all these amazing stories, right? This whole picture view. And then we really get into talking about the work.

(00:16:10) Steve Kim: So, yeah. You know.

(00:16:11) Justin McMillen: Yeah, for sure. So do you not think evil exists at all?

(00:16:15) Steve Kim: I think there's, there's good and evil. You know, and in this life experience, trying to balance, you know, the older we get, we see so much, we're like, oh man, like, this sucks.

(00:16:29) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:16:29) Steve Kim: You know, like, it's harder to see any good because we see so much pain and we experience so much. I mean, all of us go through death and all that, just bad breakups, being cheated on,

(00:16:43) Steve Kim: cheated at work. I've seen four people killed over a business deal in Orange County. You know, it's like the evil acts. You know, but I do think, I think that there is a spirit of evil that tries to win over the spirit of good.

(00:17:04) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:17:04) Steve Kim: And we as human beings have the freedom to, to fight for good.

(00:17:10) Steve Kim: And it depends on our bandwidth and where we find those places to make this thing called life a win for good.

(00:17:19) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think, like, maybe what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that all humans are born good. All babies are good. But then there's opportunities for evil to sort of take root.

(00:17:38) Justin McMillen: It's not really even part of the human, but it becomes the act, the behavior. Right? And there's this constant battle fighting inside.

(00:17:46) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah. We weren't put in a perfect world. You know, I think most agree that we don't live in a perfect world, you know, in people's ideas, you know, whether you believe in God or not. My view of God has really shifted over the years.

(00:18:00) Steve Kim: I have a lot of friends who are in the bubble of the church, which is great. [...] But I think the lens, through pain, through trauma, through incarceration... I mean, we hear stories of youth who had cigarette butts put on them, locked in trunks by their parents, you know, for punishment. They'd put their head under water so they couldn't breathe, and come up, they'd get slapped, put them under.

(00:18:29) Steve Kim: And it's like, that's the starting point. I can't imagine, I can't imagine my kids experiencing any of that. You know, I've experienced that in a way, only a little. [...] But if you leave somebody to navigate life with those experiences, it's probably going to go a certain way. So where good comes in is where people can be that touch point to be like, no, dude, like, that's not you.

(00:18:58) Steve Kim: Like, I got you, you know. And it's, you know, that one person can [...] a person's entire life.

(00:19:07) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:19:08) Steve Kim: You know, that's, that's what we're talking about.

(00:19:12) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah, I guess I, I couldn't agree with you more. You know, hearing your work, too. I mean, I heard [...] what you do, and so you're, you're...

(00:19:26) Steve Kim: Yeah. Hopefully your viewers know, like, [...] the community, like, you know, I'm here to serve, I think, similar to you. I'm humble. I didn't realize this was...

(00:19:40) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Your framing, we're incredibly aligned. And I think that's why, you know, Luke, our producer, did a good job getting you on here. He understands the people that are doing the work you do.

(00:19:56) Justin McMillen: Like, if we can amplify your message out to the world. Like, you're learning things and understanding things about human beings that very few people get to understand, [...].

(00:20:09) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah. It's a small little bubble [...].

(00:20:12) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Oh, you're doing exactly what you should be doing. But, you know, sharing is really important, because the more people understand what you're actually doing, the more compassion we create

(00:20:27) Justin McMillen: in the world. And we need that right now, because it's so easy to go, oh, [...]. So I just want you to imagine, if you're listening to this, imagine your own children, who you love, having something like what you just described done to them.

(00:20:46) Justin McMillen: And I think anyone would feel rage and anger immediately. That's happening to children right now.

(00:20:53) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:20:53) Justin McMillen: And those children are becoming adults.

(00:20:56) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:20:57) Justin McMillen: And to expect that somebody who is coming from that place, versus a stable home where they feel safe...

(00:21:04) Steve Kim: Right.

(00:21:05) Justin McMillen: ...to expect them to have the same output or the same life situation, to grow up and be people that are positive members of society,

(00:21:15) Justin McMillen: it's unrealistic. But then we've got a trap. Because you also have to have a society where there's order and people are held accountable.

(00:21:25) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:21:25) Justin McMillen: So now here's the issue. So you have the prison system.

(00:21:30) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:21:30) Justin McMillen: What you just said is, like, clearly sometimes, but not always, doing its job. And that's an issue in itself, since people come out of prison and end up with you and the people that you work with.

(00:21:45) Justin McMillen: And so before we go on, one last thing I want to ask you about, the death penalty cases. And I know I have to ask this because, again, people listening... part of my job is to think about what they would want to ask you.

(00:22:01) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:22:01) Justin McMillen: So imagine you're sitting in front of all these people. I can tell already you're going to know those patterns.

(00:22:09) Justin McMillen: What is it that you notice across all of these people? Was there a certain pattern that you saw with their history, their behavior, the way they were built, the way their world is? Is there a pattern that leads to somebody ending up in a position where they end up on death row?

(00:22:33) Steve Kim: That's interesting. The one pattern, for sure, I'd say 100% of them have experienced significant complex trauma and developmental trauma. And many will also have generations before them who've passed on this trauma. You know, genetics... we know that trauma can be passed on to the next generation. So I see some of that in real life.

(00:23:05) Steve Kim: And then I see folks who...

(00:23:10) Steve Kim: I see trauma a lot, and then I see folks who have missed...

(00:23:18) Steve Kim: many opportunities in life. And [...] this is my explanation of what I see. They definitely were the unseen and thrown away, and there were many opportunities within their lifespan that could have helped.

(00:23:36) Justin McMillen: Yes.

(00:23:36) Steve Kim: So was it school? Was there a church? Was there a need for... There were missed opportunities.

(00:23:44) Steve Kim: Of what I could see, because, you know, that's the [...] let's figure out what happened. [...] It's just complex trauma, missed opportunities, risk factors. And a lot of times, people find those missing pieces from whatever group will take them. Like, where do I fit? And especially if you're a teenager, those are very important years, where we're looking for somebody. And those are prime times for folks who grew up in this particular way to be embraced by whoever they can.

(00:24:22) Justin McMillen: And unfortunately, then, crimes... Most of them that you talk to, did they have social structure in their life, or were a lot of them loners?

(00:24:38) Steve Kim: In the streets. Okay. You know, or other cases were gang, gang cases. Some folks were actual loners, right? Or some folks were...

(00:24:53) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:24:53) Justin McMillen: Similar to, um, psychopaths?

(00:24:57) Steve Kim: You know, I'm, I'm also... I'm not a psychologist. And in those moments, when [...] that conclusion, you know, [...] the lens.

(00:25:14) Justin McMillen: Oh, man.

(00:25:15) Steve Kim: You know, and so I'm sure, you know, I mean, if a person committed those things, it's a psychotic act, you know.

(00:25:31) Steve Kim: Yeah. Human beings, all of us, I think we can be one moment away from losing our shit.

(00:25:40) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:25:41) Steve Kim: You know, and [...]. So I don't want to [...] the neighborhoods, but also people who grow up, you know, in the hills, or they're the ones...

(00:25:56) Steve Kim: one moment away from losing it.

(00:25:59) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. That's true. You should listen to a podcast [...], you know? He's a street artist.

(00:26:07) Steve Kim: Oh, yeah.

(00:26:08) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I interviewed Hans. He was shot nine times. On two different occasions, he was shot. And then he became this incredible street artist. He's an interesting character, but he talked a lot about [...] on the street.

(00:26:26) Justin McMillen: He just had a really rough youth. He didn't really fit. You know, he's Japanese. He grew up in a Mexican neighborhood, you know, and it was just like, how do you, you know...

(00:26:40) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:26:40) Justin McMillen: ...find your place. And it's like he was sort of always in a weird position there. So.

(00:26:47) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:26:47) Justin McMillen: Okay. So how did you get to this place?

(00:26:50) Justin McMillen: Tell us about you.

(00:26:52) Steve Kim: Yeah. So, let me see. Let's start with Garden Grove.

(00:26:58) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:26:59) Steve Kim: I mean, you know, if you know old-school Garden Grove... And, I mean, our street was nice. [...] But at that time, racism was blatant, pretty, pretty, pretty in your face.

(00:27:18) Steve Kim: But when you're in elementary school, you don't really realize that. You know, and, you know, like, people [...]. And I get that part of it. And so, you know, a lot of times that's how we grew up. You should be tough. You should [...] yourself.

(00:27:39) Steve Kim: Like, you know...

(00:27:41) Justin McMillen: [...]

(00:27:42) Steve Kim: Yeah. Nine years old.

(00:27:44) Justin McMillen: Oh, wow. And look, you gotta listen to our show. We interviewed a former world champion in jiu-jitsu. He's from Brazil, but [...] down here anyways.

(00:27:59) Steve Kim: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(00:28:00) Justin McMillen: Listen to Gareth. Gareth [...]. He's, he's...

(00:28:05) Justin McMillen: Gareth. Yeah. He does executive protection, so all over the world. He's [...] jiu-jitsu.

(00:28:13) Steve Kim: So, yeah, you go wherever you go. Good for you. [...] I'm like, my fingers hurt [...].

(00:28:21) Justin McMillen: But [...] journey, and, I mean, amazing.

(00:28:25) Steve Kim: And so, you know, for yourself, that's a good, you know, workout.

(00:28:31) Steve Kim: But I was a chubby Korean kid with a bowl haircut. I'd get jacked up every day walking out. And so, like, they would spray "go home, nip" on my parents' garage door, break your car windows. And, like, as a kid, you don't really understand that. You're just kind of like, I don't want to be made fun of anymore. And, like, that kept happening.

(00:28:59) Justin McMillen: Right. Right.

(00:29:01) Steve Kim: Like, like...

(00:29:02) Justin McMillen: Oh.

(00:29:02) Steve Kim: I just realized... Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So I was like, [...] I was like, yeah, this is super cool. [...] a very special time.

(00:29:13) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Same.

(00:29:14) Steve Kim: Yeah. That was... yeah, we would do that right on the streets and do all that. And [...] all the time.

(00:29:23) Steve Kim: Like, and, and I was different, too. And [...] I remember so many stories, you know. So, like, I was on my bike, and the kids would be like [...]. Huge dogs chased after me, and so, like, they're chasing my bike, and my foot slipped, and I hit my head on the pedal, and I fall over, [...] gnawing on me.

(00:29:59) Steve Kim: And this is before sixth grade, for sure. I'm, like, screaming and crying. And I remember the kids coming and kicking me, spitting on me, going in circles and just like... What? What? Because I'm [...] in the neighborhood. And, you know, it's interesting, now I realize that it does something to you, one, when you experience that and you cry for help and nobody comes.

(00:30:27) Steve Kim: I think that it does something for us, or for me, to say, you know what? You're not worth anything. You are just, you know, the other. So many experiences like that.

(00:30:38) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:30:38) Steve Kim: But this is what happened. One day the same kids came and said, hey, let's hang out. And, you know, I said, yeah. So they go, you see that new kid over there? Go beat him up. I had never been in a fight.

(00:30:52) Steve Kim: And so I'm like... so I went to him and I went like this, hit him in his face, his glasses fell off, he cried, and the kids embraced me. This is not what happened, but I felt like I was Rudy from the movie, or like, you know, like Rocky. I just felt this sense of like, oh, this is what it feels like to belong. And I never turned back.

(00:31:11) Steve Kim: I'm hanging out with them. We're all on the streets. And what I learned is, I will always try to take your bike before you take my bike. I will always try to attack first. So [...] the one who's bigger and badder than you, you go [...].

(00:31:31) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:31:31) Steve Kim: But yeah, so for me, I experienced all that. And then I had that pain.

(00:31:37) Steve Kim: And then we moved to the suburbs. And then from there we were one of the [...], at the bottom of the hill, and the only [...] except for me were [...]. So as a kid, I grew up, as a teenager I grew up, and the Mexican culture embraced me.

(00:32:01) Steve Kim: And I feel so grateful for, you know... Asian families can be a little bit cold, because they express love through buying things or through sacrificial acts, you know. But in Mexican families, very caring, nurturing. Hey, mijo, did you eat yet? A lot of care. And I like that.

(00:32:16) Justin McMillen: Always food. Yeah.

(00:32:17) Steve Kim: So, yeah, I got adopted by many families. And long story short, things are going good. My mom sent me to a church my senior year, 'cause I kept going to juvenile hall. The church saw me, I think they took me on as a church project, and they were like, I'm going to help this kid. I liked it.

(00:32:33) Steve Kim: Ended up hanging out with them. Then, after my senior year, they started going to colleges like UCI, Berkeley, USC, and I didn't know what that meant, but I'm like, I'll go to college [...]. I didn't know what it was at all. Like I was an alien. And, like, was I actually [...] in school?

(00:32:56) Steve Kim: And they were like... so then, like, yeah, it's like, go to college. [...] I'm like, this is cool. College, college. And long story short, UCI. And so I'm like, I'm going to UCI. Then a year into it, I called some old homeboys who were selling dope in Anaheim, and they took the other route, and I wanted to help them.

(00:33:22) Steve Kim: And close friends of mine, like my brothers. And moved my friends in with me, got them a job where I worked, and I tried meth for the first time. And then from there, in two years, I was homeless on Beach Boulevard in Anaheim, out of my mind, lost everything. And I'll stop there, but that was a little bit of how I ended up in probably the worst time of my life, getting totally strung out on meth.

(00:33:44) Justin McMillen: Geez. So what on earth... did you feel like, when you were in college at UCI, that you fit in with the people there, or not really, or...?

(00:33:52) Justin McMillen: And, like, you wanted to go [back to] the real people that know you, you know?

(00:33:58) Steve Kim: Both. Because, like, I didn't like... the difference [...], these are very good kids, wholesome.

(00:34:05) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:34:05) Steve Kim: I like that. You know, this is cool. Like, I like just doing goofy things, and, and I like it. This is cool. And like, I do this, and I'm hanging out, I was that way.

(00:34:18) Steve Kim: But then I also missed some of that friendship growing up, of that, like, just how we lived in the streets. Homie love, and understanding, like, what we all knew [...] at a young age. At that time, I didn't have that, fully felt like part of the group. So I go [...], and I want to help them, and then, it just... I know, makes sense.

(00:34:45) Justin McMillen: It's interesting how you can see, like, there's these people that you admire and respect, and you want to be a part of them.

(00:34:52) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:34:52) Justin McMillen: But those people aren't thinking about being part of them. They are that.

(00:34:57) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:34:57) Justin McMillen: So, like, there's this dynamic, and like, I'm not that, and I want to be like that.

(00:35:02) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:35:02) Justin McMillen: You're not, but you are.

(00:35:03) Justin McMillen: Then you, like, become, or be part of this world. Then, you know, you are, because of the situation with the kid, and you know you are that.

(00:35:13) Steve Kim: Yeah. That's where I actually...

(00:35:16) Justin McMillen: And so in your head, you're always like, I'm really this, trying to be that.

(00:35:21) Steve Kim: Yeah. And I felt, in so many ways, probably felt better to be around [...].

(00:35:26) Steve Kim: And I think this is, you know, probably [you] relate here, is that people who have been through hard times, I know they're usually the realest people.

(00:35:37) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah.

(00:35:38) Steve Kim: You know, if you haven't experienced difficulty and struggle, it's hard to... I hate to say that, because I think we're both raising children and we don't want them to...

(00:35:50) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:35:50) Steve Kim: So we [...] for them.

(00:35:52) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, it's like, I would much rather be around them, and [...] around somebody who's been through a lot of shit. You just feel instantly the richness of the human being, versus a really sheltered life. And not to be [...]. Everyone [...] terrible.

(00:36:17) Steve Kim: Sure. No, I think [...] for myself, and really [...] with the older kids, go through that.

(00:36:26) Steve Kim: And I think that, you know, right, they have a feeling of, like, what we've been through. But I think we can be the best examples of how they can see the world in other ways. I guess my, my daughter, who's 25, she's seen some struggle. And we named her Hope because she was born when my wife [...], I was [...]. And she's doing great.

(00:36:55) Steve Kim: Yeah. I'm so proud of her. [...] the best versions of us in the early years. I was going to [...] at USC a couple years ago, when I was walking out of my house, and I looked at my son, Noah, in the other room. And he's, he's [...] about 16, and I'm like, oh, this kid is, like, grown up, like...

(00:37:16) Steve Kim: And my [...] was still, like, eight years old, and now walking around like 17. And as I was driving, I'm like, yeah, this kid has never asked me once about my tattoos. If your dad has tattoos, in 16 years, I would ask, like, dude, where'd you get that? That's lame. Or what is that? Never asked. Not even. It's like I don't even have any.

(00:37:41) Justin McMillen: Mhm.

(00:37:42) Steve Kim: So the story I told myself is...

(00:37:44) Steve Kim: ...but I think the reason why Noah has never asked me about my tattoos is because he's only seen the version of a father that's healing. And so my wife, my kids' mom, have seen other versions, but he's only seen a version that is healing. So he's getting the best version of me growing up. But our family, all of us now, and we're still looking to get even better versions as we do the work.

(00:38:13) Justin McMillen: That's a, that's a good story.

(00:38:17) Steve Kim: So, but hopefully... Hope, my daughter. Yeah, she's now like... she got this, like, blessing and a curse. I think it's a blessing. [...] people [...] a lot. [...] just feelers. And she, she just loves people. And at school, kids who have a lot [...] just come.

(00:38:52) Steve Kim: They love her. And it's because of the way she treats people, the way she has learned things, not only in books, but also through living. So, you know, my wife comes from a very difficult [...] as well. But she used all that for good, [for] who she is now. And, yeah, she's, she's... there's people [with] those issues, and they love her, which is super awesome to watch.

(00:39:20) Justin McMillen: What's one thing that you admire about her that maybe she doesn't realize?

(00:39:30) Steve Kim: Well, there's a lot I admire about her. But I think it's her... she's got this, like...

(00:39:41) Steve Kim: like, how should I say... she carries this, like, caring side about people. She's always like, how are you doing? You know, how are you doing? How can I help you? I can see the good in you. And I realize that that's not always easy for everybody to do. But it's part of who she is, I see, and she didn't, she didn't have to, like, practice doing that.

(00:40:11) Steve Kim: It's like it's an inner part of her. So now for her, it's also... [...] she's being filled with love and care and nurture, and as parents, you know, that that is our role, to make sure she's good. [...] with others. Right. As parents, I realize that [...] that's also part of our role for kids. And for her, she's giving,

(00:40:42) Steve Kim: so we need to replenish that.

(00:40:45) Justin McMillen: It's like, I'm just interested... is she married?

(00:40:48) Steve Kim: She's not married, but she has [...] right now.

(00:40:52) Justin McMillen: Okay. Good. Good.

(00:40:54) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah.

(00:40:55) Justin McMillen: See, people like that... I don't know, do you know [...]?

(00:40:59) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:41:00) Justin McMillen: So we use DISC, so...

(00:41:01) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

(00:41:03) Justin McMillen: And so it sounds like [...]. And S-types are my favorite, because they're like the most loyal, the most loving, the most kind of people.

(00:41:14) Justin McMillen: They're also the ones that can get taken advantage of the most.

(00:41:18) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:41:19) Justin McMillen: Because people will walk over them if they're not careful. But if it finds a really strong person that appreciates that...

(00:41:28) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:41:28) Justin McMillen: They're like the best relationship.

(00:41:31) Steve Kim: Yeah. You know, [...].

(00:41:32) Justin McMillen: So the good in her, right? So she gets that from the wifey, right?

(00:41:38) Steve Kim: And as you're talking to me, it makes me think of her. Yes, for sure, because that's what's happened. But I will say, also, she does have the hood in her, that... I mean, like...

(00:41:53) Justin McMillen: No. Yeah.

(00:41:54) Steve Kim: The fighter, too. She fights. I think it's like, watch out.

(00:41:59) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:41:59) Steve Kim: So, but I think that she's, the kid's not a pushover.

(00:42:03) Steve Kim: She's also like, no, okay, this is what's going to happen. This is, you know...

(00:42:09) Justin McMillen: It's cute. Sure.

(00:42:10) Steve Kim: Now, but also bringing in that piece of, like... yeah, I also notice some, like, nurture, but, no, like, you're gonna be accountable. And I think that's what makes her really good. And then [as a] teacher, especially, for coming in and [the] challenges.

(00:42:28) Steve Kim: [...] She said, yeah, you know, I really want to help [...].

(00:42:34) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So wonderful. So you were telling the story about, you know, living on the streets in Anaheim, you know, Beach Boulevard, running amok, crystal meth. No choice. What happened after that?

(00:42:54) Steve Kim: It, like, destroyed my life. I'm just, you know, [...] out of my mind. But [...] school.

(00:43:02) Justin McMillen: School? How many years were you [in]?

(00:43:06) Steve Kim: Yeah, maybe like a year and a half.

(00:43:09) Justin McMillen: Maybe a year and a half. And then how long were you out of school?

(00:43:15) Steve Kim: What? So, so, so I, you know, I got dropped out, lost my job, [my] place, and then I started using and being on the street.

(00:43:26) Steve Kim: And then just, that was it, it just changed my journey. And if you don't have money, I'm [...] doing things to get drugs, going in and out, in and out of jail. And then I got arrested for the last time. And I remember getting incarcerated. I was on the run, you know, [they were] looking for me, [...] the county jail.

(00:43:54) Steve Kim: And I'm getting ready for probably a 16-month, three-year prison term [...]. And then my wife [brings] Hope to jail. If you've seen somebody in jail, you usually can't touch them. There's a glass. And I remember going to the jail visiting room, and Priscilla bringing Hope up, my daughter Hope, pushing her against the glass, probably a little under a year old. So she's, like, stuck on the glass, dude. And, like, drooling. And, like, dude, like, sobering up, seeing that picture. Something you don't want to see. Maybe you do, but you don't want to see, 'cause you're going to cry.

(00:44:30) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:44:30) Steve Kim: You know, I'm like, all the shame, just, like, like Niagara Falls. It just crushed me, dude.

(00:44:36) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:44:36) Steve Kim: And I'm trying to be cool in jail, too, 'cause I'm like, yeah, like, looking around. And so I go back, it happened to be a dorm, too. And so I put the covers over my head. I'm like, crying, dude. And I'm like, dude, like, what am I doing? And then, okay, I go to court, and then [they] offer me a [...] suspended [sentence], six-month program.

(00:44:58) Steve Kim: The Salvation Army. So that means [...]. So Salvation Army, finish it. And if I don't finish that, then three years. Three years. So I'm like, Salvation Army. So I go, and...

(00:45:16) Justin McMillen: So where were you at? [...]

(00:45:19) Steve Kim: Okay. Yeah. So, I mean, definitely wasn't easy. [...] It's just crazy, right?

(00:45:27) Steve Kim: Like, [...] I would just tell [...] the situation. But just for me, rules. You know, just... this is [...] years ago, before all of this. It's like, not going from, like, yeah, you're in the street, and now you're in structure. And it's like, you're still not, you're not dialed.

(00:45:52) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:45:53) Steve Kim: Yeah. So it's like a sober living program, and then I can't find a job.

(00:46:00) Steve Kim: Right? I'm at home [...]. So I'm, like, [...] because you're angry, because you're like, I need diapers, money. It's like, what the hell? So the Salvation Army gives me a part-time job, picking up the trash at the stores with donations. And my job was in the evenings, [I'd] pick up the trash from all the stores, [with] people, tweakers, and almost kind of, like, do that.

(00:46:31) Steve Kim: [...] I was doing that, and that's [...]. Okay. So then I go to the counselor, and she goes, what do you [want to] do? And I said, I used to go to UCI. She goes, don't lie to me. Like, I... So, yeah, I did. Well, yes, I did. So I wrote this letter. And a wonderful woman...

(00:46:52) Steve Kim: But then, [...] probably a year and a half after.

(00:46:56) Justin McMillen: So, I mean, how long, like, from leaving, you know...?

(00:47:00) Steve Kim: Oh, it's almost three years.

(00:47:02) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(00:47:03) Steve Kim: Yeah. Right.

(00:47:04) Justin McMillen: But fast. Yeah, yeah.

(00:47:05) Steve Kim: Oh yeah. She's like, okay. Yeah. Well, I know you [...]. It's like, yeah. You all right? Yeah. I should go write this letter.

(00:47:16) Steve Kim: And Carol Stanley, one of the folks who worked there, gives me an appointment. I'm like, oh, yeah. So, you know, I'm driving the trash truck, sober living, just, holy, like, broke. I go there, and Carol at the office, she kind of... she's like, well... And she goes, okay, well, let's talk [...], and she's like, so let's talk to the dean and see what we can do.

(00:47:49) Steve Kim: I mean, I think... I mean, because I've had this conversation before, the [...] letter piece. I mean, it's really [...] back at UCI, I was readmitted, and the rest is history. I started learning. [...] Grace. I mean, my friend Jesse, at that point, [...] department, and [this] job started from there. I graduated, [but] I couldn't really get, like, full-time gigs.

(00:48:19) Steve Kim: So I went to USC [...], and that's where the department gave me a job. So he's doing that. He's like, hey, [after] a few years, would you like to teach? Right? Yeah. I'll teach at USC, and...

(00:48:41) Justin McMillen: [...]

(00:48:42) Justin McMillen: Dude. Like, right. That's incredible. When you got that letter from UCI, were you, like, did you see it as, like, this is my one shot? I can't screw this up?

(00:48:54) Steve Kim: I didn't know what it meant. Yeah, but when I saw that, I mean, even seeing the actual logo on there, I'm like, okay. Yeah, this is like... I don't know what this means, but it's something.

(00:49:08) Steve Kim: And for those of us who have had doors close on us, it's like, when you see that, like, inch, you got to go for it, you know. And just going... And my wife started from ground zero, and she started working in the bank as a teller, and [went] all the way up to corporate over the years.

(00:49:28) Steve Kim: But as I'm doing my thing, she's [...], there were times, I remember, as we're struggling, because this is, it's years that, like, I'm pretty sure, years.

(00:49:40) Steve Kim: Years were just like... yeah, like, for me. And people around here would [...], because we [didn't] have money at that time, like right now. But she wore my mom's clothes to work, because my mom's a [...] lady, right? So she wore my mom's clothes to work, and people would be like, [...], like, you just feel like you...

(00:50:07) Steve Kim: Yeah. And so we just, bro, like, just take it [...], you know, keep going. And then over the years, you know, it worked.

(00:50:16) Justin McMillen: Yeah, I know. Yeah. You, you, you just kept going. So, do you think UCI... do you think they, you know, had you back there, to tell them, like, you... this one letter, this one time you gave me a shot?

(00:50:32) Steve Kim: Completely. You know, recently, we've reached out with some things.

(00:50:37) Steve Kim: So [...]. So I come out recently, but...

(00:50:42) Justin McMillen: Oh, yeah.

(00:50:43) Steve Kim: So much like Carol Stanley. I mean, after graduating, many years later, when I started [...], I reconnected through somebody. So I [got] to thank her, and she came, [...] years later.

(00:51:04) Steve Kim: And, and so to see her... because without her open door, I probably wouldn't be where I am today.

(00:51:10) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. That's true. [Write] her name down. Yeah. I don't think this will happen, but it's super... it'd be amazing to know somebody like that and just say, like, look, you, your one decision you made around this one person...

(00:51:27) Justin McMillen: You just think about that. Like, she probably said, sometime, okay, take a risk here. I'll come back to this guy. I had a feeling about him. [...]

(00:51:37) Steve Kim: Well, yeah.

(00:51:38) Justin McMillen: And then she made a choice. Yeah. It's that choice, chain of events. And now you're a force multiplier. You know what that means? Like, a single...

(00:51:49) Justin McMillen: You know what I mean?

(00:51:51) Steve Kim: Tell me.

(00:51:51) Justin McMillen: I think the military uses it, but it's described as, like, to affect one person in order to have an exponential effect on everything else.

(00:52:01) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:52:02) Justin McMillen: And so her one decision around supporting you was planting a seed that produces, like, a massive forest. Just people being helped from one person's decision, you know, and your hard work, you know.

(00:52:16) Steve Kim: Right.

(00:52:16) Justin McMillen: Humble, right.

(00:52:17) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah. As you're talking, Carol did that. And then, you know, people in our lives who did that for us. And there was a friend of mine, when nobody would hire me, she [brought me in] through the back door. So, yeah, like, one of [them], that made me think about right now. More like all these people that [...] force multiplying.

(00:52:43) Steve Kim: But I like the choice. But they probably [...]. It's like, no, let's go for it.

(00:52:51) Justin McMillen: And so, yeah, man. It's cool. So you should, I mean, do you want to... Yeah, maybe make a list.

(00:53:01) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:53:01) Justin McMillen: Just because you are doing that now.

(00:53:05) Steve Kim: Yeah, yeah.

(00:53:06) Justin McMillen: So there's guys that you, guys and gals that you run across... this goes back to what we started with, which is [whether there's] evil in people, and you made it pretty clear [how you see] these people.

(00:53:19) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:53:19) Justin McMillen: So imagine someone shows up to your doors. They feel like they're a lost cause. They've got no sense of self-worth. And they look at you, and they see this, right?

(00:53:30) Justin McMillen: It's like, he's looking at me like he sees [something], and I don't see it. And then you [give them a] shot, then they go off to the next [...]. You know, I feel like a lot...

(00:53:44) Steve Kim: And that's where I'll start. It's like, we always say at Kinship, treat folks like the best thing in the world, first of all.

(00:53:54) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:53:54) Steve Kim: And so when you walk into our org, it's part of our DNA and our culture. So whether you're, you know, a politician, or a business owner, or you just got out of jail, people should be treated the same way. It's important that people feel that.

(00:54:16) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. You know, are you familiar with the Rosenthal [study]?

(00:54:21) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Refresh my memory. I know what that is.

(00:54:27) Justin McMillen: So he, it [became] a foundation for, like, a lot of education and sports psychology. But this Dr. Rosenthal proved out that a person's view of somebody else can affect how they perform.

(00:54:43) Steve Kim: Yes.

(00:54:44) Justin McMillen: So, so yeah, that's [in] a classroom.

(00:54:47) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:54:48) Justin McMillen: But what you described is, you know, if you choose, like... there's [also] the theory, they say, the reticular activating system, which is, like, we have a set of beliefs, and so we look through this... should be familiar to you.

(00:55:06) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah.

(00:55:07) Justin McMillen: So we put on our [lens]... so, the lens: I'm a piece of shit.

(00:55:12) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:55:12) Justin McMillen: And you're looking at the world. Somebody smiles at you, it's [like], they're doing it because I'm a piece of shit, right? So, like, that's the... so we will go around the world looking for evidence to reinforce [it]. We will ignore anything that doesn't.

(00:55:29) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:55:29) Justin McMillen: So that was... yeah. So Rosenthal was, that other people's view of us [affects] the way that we behave, because we notice signals.

(00:55:38) Justin McMillen: And so you teaching your staff and the people that work around you to treat people that way, you're producing that effect. It's like the Pygmalion effect, or, forgot the other name, but basically, you're, you're allowing people... you're seeing this in people, [giving them] a higher probability of success, which is incredible, because people say, oh yeah, you know...

(00:56:05) Steve Kim: Yeah. They don't know themselves.

(00:56:07) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:56:08) Steve Kim: Like, so you love them. So, yeah.

(00:56:10) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:56:10) Steve Kim: Worth it. You know, you feel like it's hard enough to do that for all people, [with] traumas. I mean, we live in a culture where if you don't, you know, fit in, constantly... But what I'm [noticing] is, as I'm getting older, as you get older, it's not that way.

(00:56:28) Steve Kim: All the things that keep us feeling our value, right? Like, as we get older, those things [go] fast. Those things are going to... we're going to slow down. And so I think those are times where, you know, it's important for us to know our true value. Why are we... how do we know?

(00:56:50) Justin McMillen: You're right.

(00:56:51) Justin McMillen: I mean, society, our experiences reinforce this. [...] fix in our, in our brains. Yeah. So here at Tree House, we have, so, so I know [...], we have something at work called the Internal and External Application of the Positive Potential Lens. What that means is, like, in our staff training, you have to be able to see this person healthy.

(00:57:23) Justin McMillen: If you cannot see them healthy, they'll never get there.

(00:57:26) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:57:26) Justin McMillen: So it's our job to see it first, and to have a picture in our mind of what that person looks like when they're healthy. And one of the things everybody here knows, anybody that works at Tree House has heard this, whether it's here or in another state, like, you guys know that if you start talking like, well, that's just the way that person is, or you start putting them in boxes of failure, like, you shouldn't work for us anymore.

(00:57:49) Justin McMillen: That's because if you can't see it... you have to see that.

(00:57:53) Steve Kim: Great. Yeah.

(00:57:54) Justin McMillen: So the internal application is, you actually have to believe it. I don't want anyone to work at Tree House who doesn't believe in the greatness and potential of people. And then externally, it's how you vocalize, so they know you see them in that way.

(00:58:08) Steve Kim: Yeah. It sounds very similar.

(00:58:10) Steve Kim: Yes. So just words, like... yeah, I totally agree with that. You know, I mean, to add on to that... so, shifting a little bit. I think my wife... she's beautiful and [good at finding] catchphrases for us.

(00:58:29) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:58:30) Steve Kim: So, like, you know, serve, not save. Because if we're trying to save people,

(00:58:37) Steve Kim: you get burnt out. And yeah, when you describe people that way, you're not saving them. You know, you're, you're serving them, you know. And for people, it's not one way. It's mutual. Right. So we help people, we get served back. [If] we're trying to save people...

(00:58:56) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:58:56) Steve Kim: Because there's so many people [...] about us.

(00:58:59) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So, [the] thing about serving and not saving... it's dangerous, the saving idea, is if you take credit for someone being saved...

(00:59:09) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(00:59:09) Justin McMillen: You've got to take credit for them dying, too.

(00:59:12) Steve Kim: So, like, I [have] people come to me, and they're like, you saved my life.

(00:59:17) Justin McMillen: So it feels nice.

(00:59:18) Steve Kim: Yeah. And I let that sit in my heart.

(00:59:21) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. But also, if you take ownership for that, as a person that works with you, then you've got to take the other side, meaning, like, someone dies.

(00:59:31) Justin McMillen: And so that was, you know... so you can't have one [without the other].

(00:59:37) Steve Kim: Yeah. So [when] people [...] this guy's like, well, [...] where's [the] responsibility?

(00:59:45) Justin McMillen: Oh, that's good. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I like that kind of idea. So, so we haven't even got[ten to]... Okay. So let's, let's... So I just want to say, your story is, like, unbelievable, to go from...

(01:00:03) Justin McMillen: Yeah. This woman, Carol Stanley...

(01:00:06) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(01:00:06) Justin McMillen: [...] Let's see here. Oh, yes. [...] and let her know that I'm sure she's made plenty of decisions in her career that have changed the world. Yeah, but one decision to choose you has led to the starting of a foundation and doing amazing work.

(01:00:25) Justin McMillen: And led to you becoming a better father, a better husband, and led to the foundational things necessary for your wife to be [...]. [...] is an opportunity. And so [...].

(01:00:42) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah, I'm grateful for it.

(01:00:45) Justin McMillen: She sounds like an amazing person. Yeah. Okay. So I guess, you know, gangs...

(01:00:53) Justin McMillen: I don't want to talk about gangs right now. Let's talk about... Why don't you give us an overview? When did you start Project Kinship?

(01:01:04) Steve Kim: Project Kinship started in 2014.

(01:01:06) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:01:07) Steve Kim: [...]

(01:01:07) Justin McMillen: So where are you guys?

(01:01:09) Steve Kim: Where are we?

(01:01:10) Justin McMillen: Yeah, where are you?

(01:01:11) Steve Kim: Oh, yeah, we're in Orange County, so we're actually [...].

(01:01:16) Steve Kim: Okay, so we started with three, or before that, the four of us around, just trying to start this nonprofit. And now we're at 140 people, [in] 35 schools throughout Orange County, working with kids who are [...]. We're in all the county jails, inside and out. And we are in every major juvenile hall, working with youth.

(01:01:46) Steve Kim: We have [...] juvenile hall to help them once they get out, and their families. We have a [...] building outside of juvenile hall. We have headquarters on [...] Street. So then, and then we have a satellite site over there in South County. [...] And then [...] schools in Orange County. And we are probably the largest employer of folks

(01:02:13) Steve Kim: who [have] backgrounds. We hired many individuals [with] backgrounds, but amazing, because [of] opportunity over the years. I've got a handful, dozens of people who are now getting their master's, bachelor's, who came out [...]. It's almost like just... yeah, like, it's pretty amazing.

(01:02:37) Justin McMillen: That's... I didn't realize the scale.

(01:02:40) Steve Kim: Yeah. And this is... so all this gray, all this stress.

(01:02:44) Justin McMillen: Like, I had to, like...

(01:02:46) Steve Kim: Well, I agree with that one. Those gray hairs.

(01:02:50) Justin McMillen: Gracious. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

(01:02:52) Steve Kim: So, you know, like, but I think it's, I think people who are entrepreneurs will know. I think it's like, just like, bro, really understand what that says. [...] I think the [...], it's like, no, it's actually other challenges.

(01:03:11) Steve Kim: We have to evolve and shift and understand how to lead teams and blah, blah, blah. And so it's been really a wonderful journey, learning how to lead [...] an organization.

(01:03:24) Justin McMillen: What was your vision? Like, what...?

(01:03:27) Steve Kim: So I have to give credit to Homeboy Industries in LA, all their homeboys, Greg, Hector, truly everybody else.

(01:03:35) Steve Kim: And they led the way. And so I first met Father Greg at UCI, back in the day. And when I heard him speak, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, I want to be and do this. But it's... that was way back when, right? Like, it was just a thought. And then when I got to school at USC, [I] had one day with a speaker, it was great.

(01:04:04) Steve Kim: And I was like, oh, Father Greg, [...] Homeboys. And I just love how these people, how they've grown. And over the years, [...] Homeboys, when we had a chance... Kinship, that's what... I'm like, I texted him, maybe [...]. I said, this is [...] about kinship, [...] community, kinship, to recognize the power of kinship versus [...].

(01:04:34) Steve Kim: And he [...] verbally. I'm like, this is awesome. So we started Kinship. And this is... okay.

(01:04:43) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So, yeah, Homeboy Industries is legendary.

(01:04:47) Steve Kim: Oh, yeah. Yeah. They're mentors to us. And, yeah. Legendary. Yeah. Sacred.

(01:04:54) Justin McMillen: So you met him, and then... but really the vision, I mean, you obviously, you're giving [credit]. Right.

(01:05:03) Justin McMillen: [...] people in one way, but you are the one that said, this is what we're going to do. This is a thing.

(01:05:11) Steve Kim: Yeah, man. So an opportunity came. I mean, [...] how systems work, right? Like, they say, when you're not at the table, you're on the menu. And so a lot of us know what it feels like when you don't have a table, right.

(01:05:27) Steve Kim: So it was, how do we get more people to be part of the solution? And how do we reinforce [...] part of this larger [...]. Really getting grant money to hire [...] public safety [...] in the work that we do. So we started growing. We started getting schools, you know, contracts, and we started building that way.

(01:05:50) Justin McMillen: Sorry, interrupting. What was the... so, Project Kinship, you, like, [saw] we need this. I'm sure, like...

(01:06:00) Steve Kim: It's two things in the beginning, right? So we start with [...] foundation money. So [...]. But I wanted to [...] the early vision. I want people to see formerly incarcerated individuals and gang members

(01:06:20) Steve Kim: not as monsters. So I had to rewrite [the] narrative. And so we did the storytelling through our programs [...]. Oh, the other one is, the first message [...] was, [...] the worst of the worst. If [...] your program, [send them] to us. [...] we'll [...] send them back to you.

(01:06:44) Steve Kim: So over the years, we have permission to work with [those] who are the most difficult. And we've since expanded so large, but [...]. [We've] still not found the worst of the worst.

(01:07:00) Justin McMillen: Are you...? You know...

(01:07:02) Steve Kim: We're still [saying], send them.

(01:07:05) Justin McMillen: Yeah. But, so, looking through, like, this guy, you see, you know, you don't know these guys, do you see...?

(01:07:14) Steve Kim: Yeah. We see... I mean, they're like... at first, [...] everything. 'Cause, like, [...]. Like, we got our first space. No, we were into... no, for, like, a 1,500-square-foot space for starting [...]. Right? Come on. Just like, I guess, [...]. Funny. So we're [in an] admin building.

(01:07:44) Steve Kim: [...] And then what's crazy is, some people decided that people walking to their cars needed a chaperone. It's like 30 feet. [...] they'd be like, you know what? You can't... At first, like, I'm good. But, you know, it's crazy. After a few months, it would be like, I'm waiting for [...] my car, and then walking to the car.

(01:08:16) Steve Kim: And then it became one community. They became protectors. And I no longer saw... there's no us and them, only us. And then we expanded, and that happened [through] partnerships, the community, the homies, that [...] value and ideology of compassion, kinship, and [...] us and them, [and] we realize [we're] similar...

(01:08:48) Justin McMillen: Then, think, we are... So these kids that come to you, are they, being part of being...

(01:08:57) Justin McMillen: So give me, like, the rundown. Some of these [are] out of prison, and then they're assigned to come to you?

(01:09:05) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(01:09:05) Justin McMillen: You have different, you know... so, yeah, so give me, like, a couple different examples.

(01:09:12) Steve Kim: So, programs. So, in-school program: we have wonderful staff at a school site, and their job is to work with kids who have [...].

(01:09:21) Steve Kim: So, make sure [...]. Well, probably [...], or in some situations, maybe [...] trouble. So [...] I'd say at least figuring out how to support this kid. Oh, [you] love science? So really [their] interests, all that, right? So [...]. But our staff will work with them to ask, have you eaten yet?

(01:09:49) Steve Kim: Did you get [...] for school? You know, you're here this year. So these are all stories. This is your brothers and sisters. And so all these stories, right? So once you get that going, you can then create safety. And they create it, you know, hey, see you like that today. Like, but we can't, we can't [...], like, I got you.

(01:10:16) Steve Kim: They work with them [in] the class, and then also the groups, with the resource to do, like, work. The needs of this work. Okay, do your homework. We go, say, to these young people, they find a bond or connection. And then the people that are running these are people who are [...] like you, shows up.

(01:10:40) Steve Kim: This is like, I can relate to [them] because [...].

(01:10:44) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. For sure.

(01:10:46) Steve Kim: Or from... yeah, back connection to that, like you said, that piece of it.

(01:10:52) Justin McMillen: Yeah. So you, you look at it like...

(01:10:55) Steve Kim: Yeah, yeah. Okay. And we can, we can... but then you have to lead with understanding, [with] the questions.

(01:11:03) Steve Kim: Ask that, right? Because [if] our goal is punitive in the moment, [...] you're creating problems. So let's try to fix it. Now, you know, you can't [...] people, right? You can only temporarily stop it, [for] the next person to deal with it. And let's try to do our part, right? If you were asking [...] moments, we don't want to miss.

(01:11:31) Steve Kim: So that, you know, we can, we can, we can do our part.

(01:11:35) Justin McMillen: You know, how many, how many schools?

(01:11:39) Steve Kim: 35.

(01:11:39) Justin McMillen: 35.

(01:11:39) Steve Kim: Staff... the team, four leadership, 35 schools.

(01:11:43) Justin McMillen: All here?

(01:11:44) Steve Kim: Yeah. That's right.

(01:11:45) Justin McMillen: Wow.

(01:11:46) Steve Kim: Yeah. That's right.

(01:11:47) Justin McMillen: So what was the first school you started with?

(01:11:51) Steve Kim: Yeah. First, our program... so first became, was one school, started [...] like 30.

(01:11:58) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:11:59) Steve Kim: Yeah. And what was... so then we started going [into] reentry. And we had to deal with [...] case management, therapy, peer mentorship, basically all that. So what happens is, they weren't ready for [...] amazing work. Yeah. We applied for, created a reentry program, which is to, you know, [work] collaboratively [with the] county, with different departments, to see how we could... So just part of it is, we have a team inside that, when [someone] comes out, we meet them.

(01:12:37) Steve Kim: And then we have onsite services. [They] will come for other services as well. [We] get, like, case management, wraparound, [for] them.

(01:12:48) Justin McMillen: Wow. Yeah. So you, so you're very visible to people.

(01:12:52) Steve Kim: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they know, they're like, oh, there's Kinship.

(01:12:57) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:12:58) Steve Kim: And then they drop by, and you're like, yeah.

(01:13:01) Steve Kim: You've been here for [...] three years or whatever. Yeah. Like, when you come up, you... yeah, you do that. Yeah. Or we [can't] see every person, but it's like touch points. And so, and then placement, education... we have [...] focus on education, employment. [Kinship] Learns, which is our [education] program. [Kinship] Works, which is our employment program, also going into [...] high school, right?

(01:13:31) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:13:32) Steve Kim: [Kinship] Heals, which is all the [healing] work that we do.

(01:13:37) Justin McMillen: It's really cool. That's, like, Works. Yeah.

(01:13:40) Steve Kim: That's right. Yeah.

(01:13:41) Justin McMillen: And [Kinship] Learns. Yeah. So then you come with us. Yeah. You got a brain, so you're like, something here, I'm learning. Yeah, I'm learning. All right.

(01:13:53) Steve Kim: Yeah. So, yeah.

(01:13:54) Justin McMillen: There's a white belt.

(01:13:56) Steve Kim: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:13:58) Steve Kim: You know, whenever you go into [...] with groups, kids, and then you get out, [...] work together, well, you know, whatever it is they're on, [...]. You guys, you can, you know, and what we do.

(01:14:19) Justin McMillen: So I ask you...

(01:14:21) Steve Kim: Yeah. So I know, so this is what I get a lot.

(01:14:26) Steve Kim: I get a lot of [people] walking [in]: oh, wow, this is really nice. You know, I think it's kind of an idea, or just kind of, like, a shack, kind of, like, you know, hood. So, yeah. Like, I'm back to, like, you know, all that. Well, but when you come in, somebody is like, is this just for gang members?

(01:14:45) Steve Kim: Kind of. Yeah. So we run a tight ship. And we, and we also... we [don't] just work with, like, gang members coming out [of] jail. We want... Yeah. But we have a pretty extensive program, and, like, just on all fronts. [...] Contracts, [...]. You know, our annual conference,

(01:15:18) Steve Kim: 500 people every year, from all over Orange County. We celebrate our [...]. And so, yeah. But I think what we really want people to know is, to see transformation and healing, everything else [...], but [it] becomes about safety, an environment of safety where human transformation can happen, and all these services that they do.

(01:15:46) Justin McMillen: [...] It seems like... that makes sense.

(01:15:49) Justin McMillen: It seems like, so you have this existing system, the prison system and rehabilitation system. And then you guys have come in, like, placed across that system, all the way to schools.

(01:16:02) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(01:16:03) Justin McMillen: And then you're bringing human beings in there. Then imagine this [...] army, similar to you, right?

(01:16:10) Steve Kim: Yeah.

(01:16:10) Justin McMillen: So you've got all these beautiful humans involved in this, and then they're, they're showing up and they're bringing something

(01:16:19) Justin McMillen: the system is missing.

(01:16:21) Steve Kim: Yeah, yeah.

(01:16:22) Justin McMillen: What is that thing?

(01:16:24) Steve Kim: I think it really is allowing the system [to]... so, you know, and we're seeing, you know, we're seeing systems [shift] in this. So if you look at some other systems now, you'll see words like... oh, if you drive around Orange County, [...] different billboards, surely you will see language [about] hope, and some of, you know, social media posts.

(01:16:55) Steve Kim: This was [not there] years ago, you know. So we're seeing some of those shifts, seeing some of the shift [in] programming. So we see community-based [organizations] like ours going inside facilities, because it wasn't like that when we first started. I would say we [...].

(01:17:13) Justin McMillen: Right. Like for people... Are you seeing it now, working?

(01:17:17) Steve Kim: It seems [there was] fear [at first]. We had to work together, and now, you know, we, we move together for the purpose of serving people every day.

(01:17:27) Steve Kim: I would say the early years, for example, [...] in jail, and our team were outside. We weren't really allowed in the lobby. But over time, working together, the kiosk [...] inside [the] lobby, [...] our guys [were] like, wow, this means [...]. So now we just work together. More people get hired. I mean, two women who worked for us [...], like, I don't know, like, they're like, nice, cozy, working on them.

(01:18:04) Steve Kim: We didn't even have, like... this year we had guys come out and...

(01:18:09) Justin McMillen: I was like, that's what I love about what you're doing. So there's... we live in a world where a lot of people are screaming and yelling, and...

(01:18:20) Steve Kim: Yeah, yeah.

(01:18:21) Justin McMillen: And you're actually doing something.

(01:18:23) Steve Kim: Yeah. You know, it's a scale, or it's like, it's crazy.

(01:18:27) Steve Kim: It's dirty, man. You know, I used to, [...]. It's a big beast, right? And things can change. And life is so short, you know. We can't do anything [but] this. And I see people yell. Once, people are shifting from... yeah. Oh, yeah, there's a place for that, and they do that. But it is sweet to be a part of [it] when you can serve, finding solutions [...] for your personal journey to figure out, like, you know.

(01:19:05) Justin McMillen: Yeah, for sure. So, I know you depend heavily on [...]. Is there anyone... I, I loved [that] I [could] tell Carol and everything. Like, yeah, I love to [give] credit where credit's due. Like, who's been supporting you? Because these people need... I mean, I'm sure they know, but you have the opportunity to talk about that.

(01:19:31) Justin McMillen: Like other agencies, are there specific political people that are supporting you?

(01:19:39) Steve Kim: Yeah. You know, but this is...

(01:19:42) Justin McMillen: [...] No, no, no.

(01:19:44) Steve Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Like, any kind of neutral answer today. I feel like there's so many hands.

(01:19:52) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(01:19:53) Steve Kim: But I will say, our scale has grown from a partnership [...] to large scale.

(01:20:00) Steve Kim: You see, wonderful leadership, their vision. [...] Great leadership. [...] Office, [...] Orange County initiative, in Orange County, which is one of those pillars. And so a lot of people came together, and a lot of us work side by side with them, and we are their flavor of community.

(01:20:25) Steve Kim: And it's just been a beautiful journey, watching how this [is] expanding. It's going to continue to grow. And I think, you see, the more work that you put into it... but those are the [ones] that really [helped] us get this far. And then [the] wonderful foundations that have [...]. [...] not so many, of course, but [...] you know, there's also [...] how funding looks and what works.

(01:20:59) Steve Kim: And so right now, we're going to really start putting time and effort into raising money privately. Because I won't be around forever, and we want to maintain [this].

(01:21:13) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:21:14) Steve Kim: You know, and so private [...] funders, people who want to work [with] us there, and social enterprise. So we started [...] our coffee enterprise.

(01:21:27) Justin McMillen: Oh, boy. Yeah.

(01:21:28) Steve Kim: [...] Oh, yeah. It's already getting really good [...].

(01:21:33) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. That's what we... you figure out a way to generate your own, you know, your own support structure. That's incredible. What's the vision? Where are you going with this? To have...

(01:21:51) Justin McMillen: ...Orange County? Are you going [...]?

(01:21:54) Steve Kim: No. That's funny. Yeah, people have asked. I think that the future [...] is, there have been some wonderful people who've been on this journey with me, [with] Project [Kinship] and the mission. And right now we're at, what does the future look like for us, in many ways?

(01:22:17) Steve Kim: How have we [stayed] on our mission, and who are we here [to serve]? The most marginalized, the most overlooked, and the most challenged, in regards to [...] violence [and] incarceration. And we want to stay in that pocket, and we want to create more jobs. [...] because I'm, like, scratching my head on...

(01:22:43) Steve Kim: Yeah, really. How do the folks who really guide, you know, programs, like [...] schools, like [...] language for it? Okay, so in this, we're going to get more jobs. And then we know that a lot of times people [...]. So [...] all of this [is] around healing work, which really means continuing the culture of [...] compassion, kinship, and support.

(01:23:15) Steve Kim: And we're going to [...] all that together, people. And when I go to school [...] we have to graduate, or try to graduate, 35 schools, [...] the districts, we graduate, and then we have to take it day by day.

(01:23:33) Justin McMillen: Amazing. Yeah. Steve Kim, this was such a good [conversation]. I love to talk to you and do this.

(01:23:42) Justin McMillen: So thank you. And if anybody wants to support your cause, to get involved in any way, how do they get a hold of you?

(01:23:57) Steve Kim: [...] Yeah, I would say, check out our website. We just revamped [it] yesterday. [...] email [...] projectkinship.org, and then, you know, [we'll] answer them [...].

(01:24:18) Steve Kim: Okay. My work number, (714) 909-5225. I'll try to answer that.

(01:24:23) Justin McMillen: But, well, those ways [...]. Yeah. So I'll tell you, if you're looking for... people [listening] to the show... and, no, I was going to say that, but if you want to... people donate all the time. People support causes all the time.

(01:24:44) Justin McMillen: If you're looking for a cause that you can support, that really fills that missing piece, right? So if you think of, like, you know, our system, you have these loops, right? And there's, there's missing pieces that you almost get there to close the loop. So Project [Kinship] is really [closing] the gap, doing so in Orange County, and no one else is doing [it], and pioneering how to really make...

(01:25:12) Justin McMillen: So they're not just pushing [people] away, you know, like, in this repeat system. You are creating structures for people to actually go on and reform. So we want America to be, you know, a place where people can go to prison and go on with their lives, rather than just being part of this institutional system. More like Project Kinship [...].

(01:25:34) Justin McMillen: So, reach out to these guys. We'll put it in the show notes, links, everything for you guys to know. And, Stephen, I'm super stoked you came. Thank you.

(01:25:46) Steve Kim: Yeah, yeah. Thank you.