Transcript

(00:00:07) Justin McMillen: You work at CASA. Can you explain a little bit about what you do in your role?

(00:00:12) Regan Phillips: Yeah, well, yes. So I refer to myself as a recovering attorney. I became involved with CASA... actually, it's been 25 years. I started actually as an intern with the program in New York City when I was in graduate school. I was in graduate school to go into the field of social work. I knew I wanted to work with children in some capacity, but I wasn't quite sure what that looked like. I didn't think that social services was the right destination for me specifically, and I received this internship with CASA of New York City, and it was, it felt like a really nice fit, this opportunity to be in a position to make a difference for children. At an advocacy level, you know. And so through that experience, I spent a lot of time in the courtroom. We are a national program. I'll, I'll say CASA, or court appointed special advocates, is the name of the organization. That's, that's the acronym for CASA. And there are 950 organizations throughout the country. We all operate a little bit differently. At that time, I was in the courtroom quite a bit, and I think had this impression that the attorneys representing children in that forum were a little bit ambivalent, I guess would be my word. And I thought to myself, you know, man, I, I could do this. I think I could do this pretty well. I thought to myself, I should go to law school, maybe get some letters behind my name.

(00:01:40) Regan Phillips: That would give me a little bit more credibility in the courtroom. I came home and did that at Chapman, as we discussed. I spent a lot of time working during that time for our local law firm that represents children in the foster care system. And it wasn't until I started practicing that I realized that those attorneys that I observed and probably judged in, in New York City, were not ambivalent so much as they were just completely overwhelmed and overburdened. The, the number of cases that they're responsible for is, is significant. I had probably at one point 500 kids on my caseload. You're not meeting every single one of those clients at that point. I'm certainly...

(00:02:21) Justin McMillen: Really quick.

(00:02:23) Regan Phillips: Yes. I'll just keep going...

(00:02:25) Justin McMillen: No, no, no, no, no, it's good, it's good. I just, there was something you said earlier. You knew you wanted to work with kids.

(00:02:34) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(00:02:35) Justin McMillen: Can you, are you willing to share... Where is that coming from?

(00:02:39) Regan Phillips: Yeah. You know, I don't know that I have a great answer for it. I thought about it. I've thought about this a lot. And something that we talk about a lot at CASA are why? Why we're there and why we stay. Why volunteers want to come and be a part of our mission. For me, I don't have a, I didn't experience a childhood that resembles the, the childhood that these kids have had. The kids that we work with, I had, by all accounts, a pretty idyllic childhood. But I think there's a part of me that recognizes that I didn't do anything to deserve that childhood in very much the same way that these children who have been removed from their homes because of abuse, neglect, abandonment, did nothing to deserve the childhood that they're experiencing. So I feel like, like you, you said that you were interested or you have a sensitivity towards children, the elderly, certain populations. I think it's that vulnerable nature, people who are inherently vulnerable to the circumstances around them.

(00:03:40) Justin McMillen: Do you, do you have like a bit of a protector type quality about you? Are you like somebody who's there to fight for those who are vulnerable? Is that...

(00:03:50) Regan Phillips: Certainly. I mean, that's, that's what I...

(00:03:53) Justin McMillen: What you do.

(00:03:55) Regan Phillips: That's what I was doing.

(00:03:57) Justin McMillen: Always been there? Like when you were younger, did you feel maybe...

(00:04:01) Regan Phillips: Yeah, I think so, I think so. I think I've just always been drawn to, to children. I think there's something, for me about my communications with them, my interactions with children. There's a real honesty. There's a real authenticity to my connection with children that I've, I think, developed and learned about over the years. Over time, a lot of that kind of gets... Worked out of them to some extent. They learn how to manage people and manage circumstances. And certainly the kids that we work with have developed some, some savvy and skill set. But I think that children are just so wise inherently. And there was something about supporting that population and trying to help maybe preserve some of that or re... recapture it. I don't know.

(00:04:54) Justin McMillen: Yeah. You don't need to know.

(00:04:56) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:04:57) Justin McMillen: It's okay. Yeah. I think, I think it's interesting how I talk to so many different kinds of people in here, from military guys, you know, war fighters, to athletes, to all kinds of scientists, different people. And not everyone knows why they have this feeling or this draw. And you don't need to know why, but it's there.

(00:05:14) Regan Phillips: Yes, clearly.

(00:05:15) Justin McMillen: And it was there. And I imagine, you talked about going to law school. Was that your fuel? Is that what allowed you to stay awake late at night, was like, I've got to go do this for kids? Or was it always about that?

(00:05:27) Regan Phillips: No, I mean, I, I really had no interest in being a lawyer. My father's a lawyer. I feel like I spent a lot of time around lawyers growing up. I did not have an interest in doing that. It really felt to me like I was going for this purpose, this singular purpose. And my husband, who I actually met in law school, tells people all the time that I'm the only person that he knows that went to law school that actually is doing what they sought to do in going there. So I guess that's pretty remarkable in and of itself. But certainly I, I flirted with other areas of the law while I was in school just to make sure, I, you know, worked in other fields. But, but I just kept coming back to this area, and it's not particularly sexy or, you know, lucrative in that way, but it just to me felt like a calling or a mission of some kind. And I don't know that I would have ever drawn a straight line from where I started to where I've landed here.

(00:06:24) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:06:26) Regan Phillips: But when I reflect back on every decision and every kind of crossroads that led me here, they all really are tied together in some form or fashion by my interest in, I think, protecting children and creating a space, a safe space for children, a powerful voice, amplifying a voice and helping to tell a story that someone might not be capable of sharing themselves, and helping to relieve a weight that they're carrying that might be too heavy for them.

(00:06:53) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. I think what's interesting about what you're saying, and there's a connective tissue between our... that's a universal truth maybe. But people who have a really strong internal drive, like they know exactly why they're doing something, they tend to be able to fly through whatever it is that they're trying to do. Like, I just had a woman in here that, her father died when she was ten, and she became one of the youngest physicians in California. I think the youngest ever to go through medical school. She graduated, like, 21 or something like that. But her drive was like, she wanted to be close to her dad, you know what I mean? And it's like when you have that thing, and this is a good thing for people to think about that are listening to this, it's like when you have a drive to do something, it allows you to stay up late at night and study and do, because it's like you've got this thing in your head. If I use my brain power, I can help these children, right? And so you become this vessel for, you know, or this sort of point where, where all the energy exists to move something forward. And when you realize that that could be you, then something extraordinary happens, which is you fly through law school. Obviously, you're probably bright and all that, but then you do it. And then now, like you said, you found yourself in the position you're in now. So, you were talking and I jumped back.

(00:08:12) Regan Phillips: Oh, that's okay.

(00:08:14) Justin McMillen: I can't remember, but it's nice to hear kind of what makes someone tick, you know. So you finished law school, and then you... When did you connect to CASA?

(00:08:24) Regan Phillips: So CASA of Orange County, I connected to when I, when I, when I started practicing, actually. It was probably 2005.

(00:08:32) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:08:33) Regan Phillips: So, CASA in general, I connected to in 2001, in New York. And then as I started practicing here in Orange County as minor's counsel, these are attorneys who are appointed to represent children in juvenile court.

(00:08:46) Justin McMillen: And let's talk about that because, again, people... not a lot of people know about this. So, so you're... so obviously a kid can't choose their own attorney.

(00:08:57) Regan Phillips: Right.

(00:08:57) Justin McMillen: So I'm going to say a lot of things that are obvious, but I do this so that no matter who's listening to this, that they're clear.

(00:09:03) Regan Phillips: Right.

(00:09:04) Justin McMillen: So an attorney, if you're an adult, you can get an attorney. Can you explain just sort of how legal representation works for adults, and for even like a public defender?

(00:09:11) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:09:12) Justin McMillen: And then how this fits in. So maybe you can do that.

(00:09:16) Regan Phillips: Yeah. So all of these proceedings are happening over in juvenile court or family court in Orange. And when a child is removed from their home of origin because of alleged abuse, neglect or abandonment, there is a set of proceedings that commence in that building. And the judge has to, almost, well, within 72 hours of that removal, has to make a decision about whether social services made the right call or not, whether this child should go back immediately, or if they made the right decision, and if a plan now needs to be put in place to try to help the family successfully reunify.

(00:09:54) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:09:55) Regan Phillips: If, if it's possible, that's the, that's the first and foremost goal of dependency.

(00:09:59) Justin McMillen: Does the judge do that on their own in their chambers, or...

(00:10:03) Regan Phillips: No, they do it in a courtroom.

(00:10:05) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:10:05) Regan Phillips: And so what they'll do is they'll, they'll receive the report. They'll receive... all the players involved will receive notice. Child has probably been taken to, you know, Orangewood Children's Home or some other safe place pending this, this hearing. All parties are entitled to representation, which means that there's going to be, there's a lot of people in these tiny little courtrooms. There's an attorney for the social worker who's made this decision. If parents don't have their own counsel, counsel is made available to them, which is more often than not the case. Attorney for a mother, attorney for a father. And sometimes if there are additional parents involved, there will be additional attorneys appointed for them. And then every child receives an appointment of counsel. And that is as their attorney and guardian ad litem. And the distinguishing feature between those two things is, as attorney, you're representing what they want, what your client wants. And as guardian ad litem, especially for children who are under the age of 18, you're representing what's in their best interest. Sometimes those two things are not the same.

(00:11:05) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:11:06) Regan Phillips: Just to be clear. And I will also say that in all my years of doing this work and representing kids that have been removed for any number of reasons, I don't think I ever worked with a child that, at least initially, and regardless of how objectively egregious the circumstances were underscoring their removal, that didn't want to go back home.

(00:11:25) Justin McMillen: Of course, initially.

(00:11:27) Regan Phillips: Right. It's traumatic. Whatever traumatic events were happening that led to this removal, it's also traumatic to be removed from a situation that at least you understand.

(00:11:39) Justin McMillen: How do you weigh out that? I mean, yeah, that's got to be incredibly difficult. When do you, do you go to the, like, the children's home and meet with them first and sit down and build rapport?

(00:11:52) Regan Phillips: Yeah. So as I mentioned earlier, my, my caseload when I was still practicing was substantial.

(00:11:58) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:11:59) Regan Phillips: So I was basically in the courtroom all day long, which meant that unless the child came to court, and there's a victim witness, a special area for youth to go be placed in, in the event that they want to keep them separated from other parties that might be in the courtroom or people who are attending. I could go up to victim witness and meet with them, or they could come down to the courtroom. But unless children were, you know, coming to court, which meant they were missing school or something else that's important in their life, I wasn't interacting with them in person. I had investigators or other staff that would go out and interview and meet with them on my behalf, ask questions, bring that information back to me.

(00:12:39) Justin McMillen: You couldn't possibly.

(00:12:41) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:12:42) Justin McMillen: So you have these, this sort of ground team that goes in and gets a feeling for what's going on. So let's say it starts with something's happening in a home and somebody reports it.

(00:12:52) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:12:53) Justin McMillen: And, and then Social Services goes out to investigate. Is that like a legal... Is that part of the police department, or how does that... forgive me for not knowing this.

(00:13:02) Regan Phillips: No, no, no. I mean, it can be. It depends on what the circumstances are. Oftentimes it's simply a call to Child Protective Services. And, and they have the ability... I've made some of these reports myself. They don't make it easy for you to make a report of this nature. And not every call is going to trigger an investigation. So it's, there are, I'm sure, many, many calls that are made that warrant no action or receive no attention. So it's got to be pretty substantial for someone to have gone out there, sometimes multiple times, before a decision is made to remove a child. These, these things are not taken lightly because it's, these are, you know, fundamental sort of rights that parents have to, to raise their children. It's, it's a very, very big deal.

(00:13:49) Justin McMillen: What's the most common complaint?

(00:13:52) Regan Phillips: So I would say that the most, probably 80%, a very, very high percentage of these cases are there because of what I would describe as neglect. So you've got, you know, physical abuse, you've got sexual abuse, you've got abandonment, which would fall under probably some form of neglect as well. But a lot of it, the overwhelming majority probably, is a byproduct of mental health challenges on the part of parents, coupled with probably some substance abuse or other challenges that result in a situation where a child has been neglected.

(00:14:25) Justin McMillen: How would somebody know that a child's been neglected? Was this like a teacher would... How does that typically come to be?

(00:14:33) Regan Phillips: So yeah, it's oftentimes coming from teachers. It might be a neighbor, it might be somebody in the immediate environment. It could be a family member who is, you know, sort of observing something from afar or feels inept or unable to, to make a difference in the, in the immediate situation. So it really depends. But I would say teachers. In fact, during Covid, when, when the pandemic was underway, we saw a significant drop in the number of kids being referred into, into care or being, coming under the jurisdiction of the court. It's very, very... the numbers go up towards the end of the school year because oftentimes teachers are sort of watching a situation unfold. It's, you know, and then towards the end of the year, it's, it's when they kind of, they have a baseline, they have a baseline. And they just feel like they need to kind of make that report for better or for worse. So we saw a huge decline because kids were not in front of their teachers and were not having that firsthand experience. Instead, we saw an extraordinarily high amount of calls coming in now from medical professionals and hospitals, where now the treatment for really substantial abuse is now happening in a hospital setting, or, you know, with medical professionals, and those calls are being made.

(00:15:52) Justin McMillen: Do you have an opinion on the... was the kids staying at home during Covid, do you think that more of them were hurt because of this? Do you feel comfortable talking about that?

(00:16:02) Regan Phillips: I think that's... I do feel comfortable talking about it. Of course, I don't know all these circumstances, but that is, I think, a pretty solid theory. Now you've got people enclosed in homes with abusers or in circumstances that may be extraordinarily unsafe, where there is a lot of uncertainty, not just for them, for the world. And I think that there were, you know, increased instances of substance use during that period of time as a result of the uncertainty, as a result of the, you know, challenges around work and, and all the things that we, that we come to know as normal. And school at least provides for many of these kids an outlet outside of those circumstances that may be unsafe for, you know, dangerous for them. And so I do think it was kind of a perfect storm of circumstances that led to a unique set of outcomes for these kids.

(00:16:54) Justin McMillen: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I imagine the only stable thing that they... if they, if they're in a home that there's a lot of abuse going on, it's like school is the only point of stability that they have.

(00:17:05) Regan Phillips: Correct.

(00:17:06) Justin McMillen: So you take that away during Covid and you have kids at home in terrible environments without any moment to breathe.

(00:17:14) Regan Phillips: Yeah, yeah.

(00:17:15) Justin McMillen: And so then what you're saying, I think, is that you saw an uptick in hospitalizations because it became much more serious, like it was allowed to go on long enough. Wow.

(00:17:26) Regan Phillips: And even in those instances where, you know, a child has been, is knowingly under the jurisdiction of the court and has an open case with social services, they're not doing those home visits. They're doing everything over Zoom. You know, you can hide... you can hide a multitude of sins over Zoom. I've, you know, I've given presentations in my, you know, pajamas.

(00:17:46) Justin McMillen: Yeah, like from the waist down. That's funny, things where people stand up and you see them in their boxers and...

(00:17:51) Regan Phillips: Remember? With their tie on.

(00:17:53) Justin McMillen: Yeah. The same.

(00:17:55) Regan Phillips: Yeah, yeah.

(00:17:56) Justin McMillen: So, yeah. Yeah, I think... okay. So 80% is neglect, and most of the time it's teachers that are calling. What would surprise people the most about abuse that's happening in homes? Like, what do people not know?

(00:18:10) Regan Phillips: My feeling on this is that I think people would be surprised to know that every zip code in Orange County is represented within the juvenile court. I think that people tend to think that this is a problem afflicting only certain populations, and certainly there are, there's not equal representation of each zip code. There are certain communities, and I do think that socioeconomic status plays a role in this as well, that are disproportionately represented, for sure. But abuse and neglect are things that are happening in every community and every, and every zip code, and, and these, you know, these children are suffering throughout our county. And I do think that, you know, there's some really, really, you know, unhappy and disturbing circumstances that are leading children into these courtrooms, into these proceedings. And... Yeah, it's not something that's really well known, I think, or discussed, because for their safety and protection, all of the proceedings are confidential. You can't just go sit in a juvenile court courtroom and observe the proceedings like you can in adult criminal court or anywhere else. So it's, it's hard to really know and talk about and share unless it becomes really, really egregious.

(00:19:34) Regan Phillips: Then you hear, hear it on the news, or you hear, you know, some of those documentaries coming out of LA that were awful, about children dying in the system and whatnot. So, yeah, but it's, it's heartbreaking. It really is. And I think that there are, I think there are a lot of really well-intentioned people that go into this line of work. I mean, there's nobody I know that, that practices law or that went into social, social work that doesn't have a tremendous heart and fortitude around this. But it is, it's very heavy, and there is so much to be done. It's hard, I think, to stay on top of making the difference that you expect going into it that you're going to be able to make. There are so many obstacles. The bureaucracy is big and it's challenging to navigate. And so I do think it's disturbingly slow, how, how things move and how effective you can be as an advocate or as someone who's even privileged to be a part of the system making a difference. Like, you know, a CASA, for instance. I will tell you that I find it remarkable, our organization, court appointed special advocates is what it stands for.

(00:20:58) Regan Phillips: I find it remarkable that the legal system, with these confidential proceedings, allows us to bring lay volunteers into that courtroom, to read the reports, to interact with all the players, not just the child, but the caregivers, the attorney, the social worker, to make recommendations to the judge. And they're not a party to the case. They're just there because they care about this child. They've established a relationship. They're probably the person in the courtroom that knows that child the best.

(00:21:30) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:21:31) Regan Phillips: And, and they're invited in to be a part of, of what's going on. I think it speaks volumes of our court in Orange County that they welcome these volunteers in, that they want someone to point out the gaps and the areas where they could be doing something better.

(00:21:44) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:21:45) Regan Phillips: And they want to get it right. I think that's, it's a remarkable thing.

(00:21:51) Justin McMillen: And I, yeah, I, I completely understand what you mean by that. And I think, with all big, large bureaucratic machines, and obviously the judicial system, you know, can, can be that in many ways, I think it seems like there's these organizations that show up and they bring heart.

(00:22:10) Regan Phillips: Right? Yeah.

(00:22:11) Justin McMillen: And, and people that are good decision makers that choose to allow that to happen. They're really kind of operationalizing this natural care that humans have. And so it sounds like you have a lot of volunteers who come in that are showing up with their heart. They don't need to have the expertise. They just need to have a strong, like, give a, you know, what sort of feeling.

(00:22:32) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:22:33) Justin McMillen: And then like you said, it's amazing that our court system is supporting that.

(00:22:38) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:22:39) Justin McMillen: Because we need heart in more things. I was talking to somebody else about this around peer recovery support. And they were saying how there's tens of thousands of people in the United States right now that are willing to help out somebody who's struggling with addiction, that don't have a license or whatever, but there are people that will show up and just be there. But it's really about, how do you operationalize them?

(00:23:02) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(00:23:03) Justin McMillen: You know, it's like there's all this genuine care out there, but how do you bring that to the table? So how does CASA find these people? How do you get these folks to come in and work and to be a part of what you're doing?

(00:23:14) Regan Phillips: Yeah, they are angels on earth, that's how. Yeah, they really are. So we have an army of volunteers. I would say over the course of the last year, we had about 950 volunteers that were active within our organization, working directly with children. And we find them... I would say our number one recruitment, successful recruitment tool is just word of mouth. People who, who have gotten to know us or who have volunteered alongside us in some capacity, sharing about it. So we can't underscore enough the importance of, once you know about us, share, and you're an ambassador for us. But, you know, we have a small but mighty team that will go out into the community, and they'll table at community events, they'll go into different places of worship, and they'll go to, you know, anywhere, anywhere where we're invited, frankly. And sometimes places we're not, but we're just trying to get an audience with people. And we have a lot of great corporate partnerships where we'll go in and, and speak to, to groups that, you know, are endorsing a volunteer role for their staff, or allow them to spend some time out in community doing that.

(00:24:28) Regan Phillips: So we, we do share a bit about the role, answer preliminary questions. I tell folks that we're really only looking for four things. We want you to be over 21. You're going to have to clear a pretty extensive background check, because we are a conduit to the most vulnerable children in the community. So we want the right people there. And then open heart, open mind. We will literally give you the rest. You do not need to have a background in the law, in social work and psychology. You don't have to be a parent. Nothing. I mean, just an open heart and an open mind. We, we have our volunteers go through pretty extensive training. There's...

(00:25:01) Justin McMillen: I was going to say...

(00:25:03) Regan Phillips: Yeah, yeah.

(00:25:04) Justin McMillen: Keep going.

(00:25:06) Regan Phillips: 30 hours of training up front. And it sounds like a lot, but in many ways it's just scratching the surface. We will interview before the training starts. We will do those background checks that are mandated by law and by California Rule of Court. We look for references, and, and then we swear them in as officers of the court. And we'll lose people along the way, you know, if it becomes too heavy sometimes, or if the training just feels like a bit much. And we have been in talks to reevaluate the length of that with our national umbrella organization. But the reality is it's, it's, it's an important tool to weed out folks that are there maybe for the wrong reasons, because once they get matched with this child, they're kind of out there in community and spending time together. They spend time together twice a month is what's suggested. And that could look like, you know, just going to grab coffee, going to lunch.

(00:26:07) Regan Phillips: We have a community partnership coordinator on staff that will just find free and low cost places within Orange County that they can go and experience together. And we get a lot of tickets and things donated to us, which helps. But it's really just about spending time with that child and getting to know who they are. And then ultimately, through that relationship, being in a position to make suggestions, recommendations, ask for things that the child might not be comfortable asking for. You know, I, and I'll just keep talking if...

(00:26:42) Justin McMillen: No, I'm, I'm, I'm... well, this is really good because I think people, you know, we live in a, in a time where a lot of people work jobs and things that they don't, they're not satisfied. They don't feel as though they're really contributing or giving anything to the world. And so having you talk about this, I imagine people listening are thinking, man, that would be probably a very difficult but very rewarding thing to do.

(00:27:05) Regan Phillips: It absolutely is. And I tell folks when we swear them in, and I tell them at every opportunity I can, that our entire organization exists... we have a staff of about 50, from start to finish, every position is there in order to support them in being successful. And, you know, they may not receive words of, of appreciation or encouragement from their youth. That's not, that's not the point. That's not what they're there for. They may not realize or be told that they're making a difference. They may not receive a thank you. I hope that's not the case, but it's not, it's not lost on me that it may not happen. That's our job. Our job is to help them feel appreciated, to feel supported, to feel encouraged when it feels too hard to keep going, and to ensure that they'll keep coming back. Because the one thing that that child hasn't had is consistency in their life. So it takes a minute for them to warm up. They've, they've been let down by some of the people that are supposed to love them unconditionally and be there for them unconditionally. When there is not that consistency and an understanding of what's going to happen next in your life,

(00:28:14) Regan Phillips: you know, you learn to kind of feel things out and, and really test how, how strong the relationship is and how much you mean it. Right? So I tell stories sometimes about, you know, we had an advocate, a new, a newer advocate who had been matched with a 17 year old girl for about six months, and she called her, her supervisor. We have a staff of folks that just simply are there to basically operate as a coach for that, that volunteer on their particular case. And she was feeling really disheartened. You know, I've been doing this for six months. I go pick her up and, you know, we get in the car. I try to have conversation with her. I ask her questions. She's not responding. She's not, she's not saying anything to me. I just, I feel like I'm not doing a great job, and this may not be for me, and I'm really second guessing whether I should remain in the role. And the supervisor says, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. She's getting in the car. You know, we have to, I think, temper our own expectations of what we're hoping to get out of this, out of a volunteer, any volunteer role.

(00:29:23) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:29:24) Regan Phillips: And realize what the overarching goal is here. It's to help them feel more comfortable. They'll tell you through their actions and their behavior what speed to go at and what's working and what's not. We just have to pay attention.

(00:29:38) Justin McMillen: I think you're bringing up something. I don't know that this is applicable to CASA so much, but I worked in, in nonprofit a little bit, and I, I worked for an organization where a lot of people came and volunteered short term. And what I noticed was that a lot of people show up because it's for them. So they can have that feeling, right? They want to be able to, like, get charged up, like, I did something. Maybe they want to tell their friends, I did something for the world. But it's not about them. And that's a special kind of person that can know that they're making a difference, not have to get this welled up feeling of joy that they are saving the world, but be able to go home and, and say, because of me today, the world is not as bad as it was without me, kind of a thing. That's a different, different thing, right? It's like, it is like, this isn't touchy feely. Like it's, you know, you showed up, you did what you're supposed to do. Had you not done that, that person wouldn't have had consistency. If you didn't exist, the system would not be able to help these kids. Like, that's it.

(00:30:42) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:30:43) Justin McMillen: You know, it's like, it's not about us.

(00:30:45) Regan Phillips: It's not about us. I mean, listen, don't get me wrong. I think that there's something really great... we all want to feel good about what we're doing, of course. But I'm quite clear with folks. This is not going to be that quick dopamine hit, you know, volunteer experience. If you want that, you want to see kind of the, you know, go serve food, you know, and, and you can see that you've made a difference. You can see the outcome of something that you directly were involved with right away. So there's value in that. And I think that people should try to do things that also fill their cup and make them feel great. But this is a slow roll. We are a slow roll. Yet I want them to also understand that even when it feels like they're not making a difference, even when they can't see something tangible, they 100% are making a difference just by showing up. We have a line that we use all the time: showing up is extraordinary. It's just that. And, you know, advocacy sounds like a big deal. It sounds like a really important thing. And it is. I don't want to underestimate or undervalue the meaning and the opportunity that you have to take information that you get as a result of this relationship and be able to effectuate change with it by bringing it to the court vis-a-vis a recommendation, or calling the social worker to say, hey, we got to do something about this right now.

(00:31:59) Regan Phillips: We can't wait for the, the next hearing. You can see, you can make a difference in real life. But the things that we hear about through surveys that we send to the youth or in feedback requests that we get, it's never about the change that was made in court or the big recommendation that they got that, you know, that, that really changed their circumstances. Those things are happening. But it's about the fact that, that they developed this relationship, that this person was there and remembered their birthday. I mean, these are the things that make me cry. There are kids that, that had... no one had ever celebrated a birthday with them before. And the fact that she remembered, and she picked me up and we did a special thing in honor of my birthday, was, was, you know... it's, everyone just wants to be seen and wants to be heard, and that's it. This is no different. These kids just want to feel important. They want to feel like they, they... someone believes in them, that they're worth showing up for. And we can't change what's happened to them. What's been done is done. But to know that, that they're worthy of someone's time. Someone who's not paid to be there, because, again, all of these players, there's a lot of people surrounding this child with support and attention and advocacy already before CASA even enters the situation. But the kid knows they're all paid to be there, even sometimes the homes that they're living in.

(00:33:29) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:33:30) Regan Phillips: Because it's a paid resource family. So the CASA is not... the CASA is choosing to be there, and that is not lost. It's a very, very powerful message that it sends to these children.

(00:33:39) Justin McMillen: I know that they're aware. That's good.

(00:33:42) Regan Phillips: They do.

(00:33:43) Justin McMillen: Yeah. That's good. It's, it's... so these kids are typically living in foster care. And then so, so take me through. Someone gets removed, or a child gets removed from their home. What about siblings when that...

(00:33:56) Regan Phillips: Yeah, let me tell you. When I tell you, it can get very, very complicated very quickly. It really can. Every situation is different. So there's not a one size fits all answer to this question. But yes, it depends. In terms of the placement issue... Listen, the overarching goal for these proceedings, as I mentioned before, is we want to safely rehabilitate this family and reunify them. That's the goal. The court and the, the, the legal statutes give you a timeline and kind of a, a framework under which you can do that legally. Whether the family participates, and how well they participate and show up and demonstrate that in earnest, their interest in doing that, will dictate what happens next. In the interim, assuming the child has been removed, hopefully there's a family member or some other person that's close...

(00:34:48) Justin McMillen: Is there somebody immediate...

(00:34:51) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(00:34:52) Justin McMillen: That's obviously better than going to...

(00:34:55) Regan Phillips: Okay. Absolutely. I mean, that's, I think everyone's preference is to try to get them in a safe and appropriate home with someone they know, a trusted adult that has a relationship with them. That's not only important for the child, it's also just a reality of the fact that we don't have a lot of, an abundance of resource family homes, previously known as foster homes, where people are essentially paid to take children into their care. And those, you know, I'm sure you and some of your listeners have heard about good foster homes and bad foster homes. They all exist on a continuum, too. So there's, you know, there's, there's, there's also challenge in identifying those homes and then making sure that you get a good one. There can also be a lot of movement for kids in those circumstances. And then we have what I would refer to as more kind of... they're not institutional homes, but they're not family oriented homes, right? They try to replicate that, that feeling as much as they can. They used to be called group homes. Places where many children are living in community with, you know, responsible adults, professionals. It's not a family.

(00:36:06) Justin McMillen: Right.

(00:36:07) Regan Phillips: Yeah. And we... Orange County actually is one of the only counties in the state of California that has a, a, a large... an emergency shelter home, Orangewood Children's Home, where, where kids are supposed to go. It's meant to be short term, pending the placement with a family member or somebody else. But oftentimes kids will end up staying there quite some... for quite a while. And it's like a little village. I don't know if you've ever been there, if you've seen it. It's like almost a little village right there next to juvenile court. And they have, you know, a dining hall and a medical unit and all those things. But it's, it's, it's tough.

(00:36:44) Justin McMillen: It would be like so terrifying for the kid, no matter what situation they came from. Right? So I just imagine being a child, and it's like, even if it's chaos, at least you're used to it. And then you're pulled out and you're told you can't be with your parents. And then how does a kid wrap their head around that? I mean, especially the young, like, between the really young ones. I mean, four, five, that's got to be unbelievable.

(00:37:14) Regan Phillips: Yeah, it really is. And you, as you said, you know, it may be hard or... Hurtful or just a really, really objectively, I feel like, hard situation for them, but at least they sort of know what to expect.

(00:37:30) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:37:31) Regan Phillips: Now you're going into a situation where somebody else is making all the decisions for you, and he wears, he or she wears a robe and doesn't know you from Adam. And you don't know what's going to happen next. And you may not know until right before it happens. And there's not somebody there that's able to walk you through all of that in a child appropriate way all the time. So, you know, there's a lot of trauma, a lot of trauma that is, that is felt and experienced by these kids. And then oftentimes it's repeated with every change and every, you know, disruption that they experience in their home. Sometimes this impacts where they go to school. Now everything has been changed. They're not living at home. The people that they used to see on a daily basis, whether it was their family of origin or other people in their neighborhood, in their community, they don't see them anymore. They're not, they don't know who they're going to be living with.

(00:38:33) Justin McMillen: Can they still go to their same school?

(00:38:36) Regan Phillips: You can make requests that those orders be fulfilled, but sometimes it's not possible.

(00:38:43) Justin McMillen: How often do siblings get separated?

(00:38:46) Regan Phillips: So more often than, than I think we would all like to see. And it really just depends on, on a lot of those other factors. Is there a family member who's willing to take, and capable of taking, all of them, depending on how many they are and what their varying needs and ages are? Is there a foster home that is willing to take this number of children? Are their needs or behaviors so challenging or problematic that they'll say, I'll take these three, but that one, I can't, I can't do it? You know, it just, it really depends. Sometimes, because there are multiple parents involved, one set of siblings is able to go with one father or one side of the family, but that's not made available to the others because, while they share a mother, they may have different paternal families. So if, you know, there's any number of circumstances. And, you know, one of the beautiful things that we do at CASA is we have volunteers, and it's largely one on one. So we try to really promote that one on one relationship, mainly because, I think it's, it's really nice that they have the opportunity, the child, to, to, to be seen and, and, and listened to in that really...

(00:40:12) Regan Phillips: I mean, listen, I got three kids, and I'm a different parent when I'm with one of them versus when I got all three. Right? So I just, I think there's something really lovely about them having that attention, that level of attention. But in order to serve more kids, and in order to maximize our resources with our volunteers, we have increasingly started matching them with siblings when it's in the children's best interest to do so. And they would, you know, benefit from being together. And I can't tell you, but I can't tell you how many times we've got kids that are sibling sets. They've got different cases, and they'll all get together because they are placed in different placements. They don't see each other on a regular basis. Or we'll have a big event... we do every year a back to school picnic, and we do a holiday party. And it's the two events where we welcome every single advocate and every single youth, all in one place, to be together. And these kids that, you know, big sibling sets, friends that they made while they were living in a group home and they haven't seen for years, the reunions that, that you get to bear witness to when these children reconnect, people who used to live together and have, you know, just completely lost touch, or only see each other around court hearing dates and these kinds of events.

(00:41:20) Regan Phillips: It's, it breaks your heart. But it's really, I think, lovely to be a part of something that focuses exclusively on what's right for that child, and how we can create more meaningful opportunities for them to experience something that's of interest to them, and, and to create opportunities for them to be with their siblings.

(00:41:42) Justin McMillen: Yeah. It's, it's, it's unimaginable to me to think that something could happen and my children would suddenly not... You know, I was going to ask you, so, like, as a parent, and then to, to do this work every day, how do you keep your head straight? Like, I mean, you go home and you see your children, and I'm sure you and your husband have built a beautiful life for them, and then you're just seeing tragedy after tragedy in this courtroom. How do you make sense of that?

(00:42:13) Regan Phillips: Yeah, I, you know, I think it's been really perspective enhancing for me as a parent. I started this work before I was a parent, representing kids as an attorney, and I got that question a lot when I was still practicing. Like, oh my gosh, how do you, how do you do this? Because you really are front lines every day. The things that you would read in these reports about how a child came into care, the... it's just, it's, it's devastating sometimes. And I, I didn't really have a great answer at the time, but my feeling was, somebody has to do this work. And as long as I feel like I have the, the, the fortitude and the capacity and the, the willingness and the interest, I... why not me? You know, I, somebody's got to do it, and I, you can carry the... I can carry it right now.

(00:43:08) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:43:09) Regan Phillips: When I had my first child, I elected to step back from doing it in the way that I had been doing it prior, for a number of reasons. But it did hit me differently, for sure. And I think one of the ways that I am able to, to stay involved [...], but I've been working with CASA for ten years, 11 years, 11 years now, CEO for, for nearly ten. And, I... I think because I'm not on the front lines every day. I have a different perspective. And I really value the opportunity to be around people who are trying to be a part of the solution. People who are, who also are, are willing to take a look at what's happening, to kind of, you know, peek behind the curtain a little bit at what's, what's happening to these children in our community, and not be afraid of it, and are willing to, to stand with them and stand next to them and show up for them.

(00:44:18) Regan Phillips: I just, I think there's something so beautiful about it because it's, it's... secondary trauma is, is, is, is real for these volunteers as well. And they're, they're walking right into the thick of it with them. And, you know, so I think the perspective I have now is that I, I feel so lucky and so blessed to be able to witness the level of humanity that I see on a daily basis from the volunteers and the board members and the donors and anyone who is stepping forward to say, I'm willing to help you solve this problem, and I want to help invest in the children in our community to have a better future and a better outcome. Whether you're moved by the heartstrings of what, what's happening and what our volunteers are capable of doing and being a part of our mission or not, we're paying for these children one way or the other as a community. And I think that by, by getting involved now through early intervention with your dollars or your time, you have an opportunity to change outcomes. This population of youth is far more likely to end up homeless, without education, without jobs, to be, to have some level of recidivism back into the system through incarceration. They're more likely to become involved with, you know, gangs and criminal activity, substance use and abuse. So, you know, I think to the extent that you have someone that's showing up for you

(00:45:42) Regan Phillips: and, and, and demonstrating a belief in you, I think you have a far more likely chance of reducing, of course, those behaviors.

(00:45:50) Justin McMillen: Yeah. I think you're very much a CEO, and, and, I mean, this is as a compliment, in that when I was asking you about how you deal with it, and it's like, I think, and you said it when you first came in here, you said, you know, I, I am just impressed with all the angels that I have around me.

(00:46:08) Regan Phillips: Right.

(00:46:09) Justin McMillen: And the people that go do this work. It seems like you have really realized that you are at the, you're at the helm, and that you're part of a system, and you understand that system, and the system is moving forward, and that has these people in the front lines. And perhaps how you're able to take care of yourself is that you're looking at the greater good of the system as a whole, and then your job is to take care of these folks, and to recognize and honor them for what they're doing.

(00:46:35) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(00:46:36) Justin McMillen: And remind them what the system's about.

(00:46:38) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(00:46:39) Justin McMillen: And then to go out and talk like this and to help raise money for... So this is a nonprofit?

(00:46:45) Regan Phillips: Yeah, it is a nonprofit organization.

(00:46:47) Justin McMillen: And then how do you, how are you funded?

(00:46:50) Regan Phillips: So we are a... we're... at one point, when I started with the organization, we were 99% privately funded through local donations, events. Some of our government funding has gone up in recent years. But it's, you know, it's a little uncertain at times just because it kind of appeared out of nowhere, and sometimes it...

(00:47:09) Justin McMillen: Are you talking county, local, or are you saying state?

(00:47:13) Regan Phillips: State and federal.

(00:47:15) Justin McMillen: Okay.

(00:47:17) Regan Phillips: So state and federal. And at our max with the, with the government funding, we were 83% still privately funded. So, you know, what I can tell you is that the government funding has been, has been helpful. As far as I know, we're the only statutorily mandated... well, statutorily empowered, I will say, nonprofit organization that gets, you know, really little to no funding from the government to do it. I mean, we've had recent legislative changes that have been beneficial for us, but they're not set in stone. And that's something that we're, we're actively trying to demonstrate, that if you're going to ask for, for an organization, a nonprofit organization, to be a part of the system, to be advising in many ways, the mandatory has to be there, right? There should be something, you know. So we get, we get very, very little funding from Judicial Council. We get zero funding from the courts, notwithstanding the fact that that's where, that's... we serve at the pleasure of the court. And so I really, I really appreciate a community as philanthropic as, as ours that is stepping forward and saying, we want to be a part of the solution. And so we do a series of events throughout the year that are quite successful.

(00:48:35) Regan Phillips: And that's, quite a lot of our money comes from, from those. Initially it was about 50%. Now it's probably a third. And then a lot of really wonderful foundations, grants that we, you know, apply for, and community members. We have an incredibly philanthropic board and a super engaged board of directors that, that are wonderful ambassadors, generous in their own right, and really are motivated to, to help us create impact for these kids.

(00:49:06) Justin McMillen: How do people... if somebody's listening to this, or somebody who's listening to this that wants to donate to you, or how do they do that?

(00:49:14) Regan Phillips: Well, they should visit our website, CASA, and that will give you information about how to get involved with us, whether that's as a volunteer, an advocate, as our primary need, because those are the really incredible volunteers that, that go through the training and that ultimately create that relationship with the youth and advocate for them. But there are lots of other ways to volunteer with and for us as well, whether that's through our events, and/or through the events that are child oriented. You know, that I've described, the picnic and some of those big things that we do, as well as some of our fundraising events. We have some, some impressive auxiliary groups and folks that come together to help us raise money and awareness there. So yeah, the website is a great way to learn about all the different ways to get involved.

(00:50:00) Justin McMillen: And somebody just wants to give you money, how do they do that?

(00:50:03) Regan Phillips: They could do, they could do that through the website as well. Certainly there's a link that they could do. They can, you know, I don't know, call me. Email me.

(00:50:12) Justin McMillen: Okay. All right. All right. So we'll put contact information, if you could, in the, in the show notes to, to make sure that that's possible. And I know there's been results like that that have come from some of our shows. So we're not that big, but not on YouTube, but on Facebook and things like, we have millions of views, and yeah, so people will hear. What about... I'm just curious, and you don't have to talk about this, but what about, do you guys have lobbyists or anything that are working for you to try to get block grants or dollars, and try to figure out how to package you in a certain way? It seems like there's got to be a way to spend money that results in some sort of longer term funding mechanism.

(00:50:52) Regan Phillips: Yeah. So we do have an umbrella organization in the state of California, California CASA, that is a small but mighty group of, of professionals that are really trying to support the entire network, 44 CASA organizations in 53 counties. And we all have different challenges and needs, right? Some of us are quite large. Orange County, I think, is the third largest in the state, both in terms of population of children served and budget. But there are some really tiny organizations in very rural counties where it's quite difficult to get volunteers, or, you know, so everyone's facing different challenges. The crux of their work is to help provide support where they're able to. Their efforts have also included working with legislative activists and doing some legislative advocacy at the state level. Specifically, you know, there are CASA entities in other states. Texas, I know, for example, their state budget funds CASA and has always funded their CASA programs.

(00:51:59) Justin McMillen: Excuse me, they should do that here. And it seems like, you know, there's... we were, you know, I work on the substance use disorder side, and there's, there's certainly a big conversation around prevention. And I think you could make a really strong argument for this being a preventative thing, right? To keep kids out of the system.

(00:52:16) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(00:52:17) Justin McMillen: And, you know, I think what we're learning is that in... we're working in five states, and what we, we're learning is we'll see these different... there's pools of money that are sort of locked up in different areas, and it seems like just getting to the right person there to create some sort of ongoing carve out for money, or say, forcing this to be released in this manner for this use, you know. But it's crazy to me that you guys are mandated by the court and that there's not...

(00:52:45) Regan Phillips: So, yeah. So, and I want to be clear, we have, there have been four cycles of state funding that we have been able to receive in recent years. But it's not like we have been written in as a permanent part of the budget. We are, you know, working to try to secure our own permanent funding. But, but we feel like regardless of whether the money is coming through, regardless of the channel it's coming through, there should be, we should be a line item on that budget every year. We are working on our, you know, on ways to try to bring some of that to the table through the California CASA team. But yeah, they do have... it's just not been a certainty as to whether or not the money will be there, whether we're going to be included. And it feels to me like, listen, I think that it's important that the state care for the kids that are, you know, provide some level of care for the kids living within it. But, you know, the highest degree of care should go to the kids that the state is now responsible for raising, right? Because the state has made a decision that they can't be in their homes. So to me, that, that feels like the highest degree of responsibility that the state should have. And certainly we are a part of creating and effectuating change.

(00:53:57) Regan Phillips: We have a framework that our advocates use to direct and tailor their advocacy to the court. We refer to it as the HELP model: health, education, life skills and permanency. Those are the four key areas that we focus on and that we assess, to see where is the child at baseline, during the kind of the beginning of the relationship, and where should we tailor some of our, our efforts to ensure that we can see progress made. And I am telling you that we may not have a lot of qualitative data to share, but the state of California touts a 50% high school graduation rate for children in foster care throughout the state. If you put a CASA on the case, it goes up to 96%. So again, I mean, I feel like the, the, the impact is clear. And I think you can extrapolate from that. And we're increasingly working with certain assessments and databases that we've built to, to, to demonstrate our impact, that, you know, when you do have somebody showing up, when you do have somebody investing time and exposing a child to things that they might be interested in, opportunities that might never have come their way, you now can create change.

(00:55:13) Regan Phillips: It's not just in those immediate circumstances of kids returning to their homes. Certainly, we work with a number of kids that are placed with their biological family, and the case is likely to close and reunify successfully. But we're also working with a number of kids that are never going to reunify successfully with their family of origin. They're not going to be adopted out of the system. They are going to emancipate out as adults, and we want to make sure that they are set up for success. And so we have to tailor our advocacy and tailor our support to the needs of that particular case. That's what our staff helps the volunteer to do. And, and, you know, I'm just blown away by last year. We, we saw kids come through at the end of the school year. I think it was the highest number of kids that we saw that were going into higher education, which, I'll be clear, is not the goal for every kid, nor should it be.

(00:56:06) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(00:56:07) Regan Phillips: But I had never seen... I think every single UC was represented. USC. We had one girl going to Stanford for a summer program, with the goal of ultimately getting to Harvard. I mean, listen, I'm highlighting that because I think it's remarkable that, that one would think that some of these kids could, could end up there without having families supporting them and ushering them to that, to that outcome. But we have just as many advocates that are, you know, introducing these youth to trade schools and just helping them, you know, overcome learning disabilities, getting the right type of attention that they need from a mental health perspective. The amount of insight and perspective that these volunteers are able to, to share, because they know that child, and because they've had the chance to observe them and see them in kind of a, a different environment. It's, it's, it's mind blowing. They, they are literally changing the trajectory of these children's lives.

(00:57:09) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's... I mean, I think it's fair to say this, because, you know, kids that end up with, like, such a shitty start, excuse my French, right? It's like... There is, there's like one thing that I could say, that some of the most amazing people I have ever met...

(00:57:29) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:57:30) Justin McMillen: Are the ones that have had the worst. They just had the worst, like, life circumstances dealt to them.

(00:57:36) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:57:37) Justin McMillen: And, and so with the right amount of love and you matter and showing up...

(00:57:42) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:57:43) Justin McMillen: Like, you're talking about kids with incredible substance, a lot of pain, but, like, pain becoming wisdom.

(00:57:50) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(00:57:51) Justin McMillen: And becoming really powerful humans in the world. And that, I don't know, when you said the thing about them going to all the schools, it just, like, of course, you know. It's like, I'm sure that's not always the case, but, but yeah, I think there's a lot of people that are raised in pretty run of the mill homes that don't understand the value of... It's interesting. Like, we're in a weird place, I think, as a society.

(00:58:14) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(00:58:15) Justin McMillen: Like, why... first, why are kids getting left behind in this way? I mean, do you, do you ever, do you zoom out really wide and just ask yourself these questions around, how are we here, where kids are getting... where we even have to have this, and people are being abused?

(00:58:28) Regan Phillips: And yeah, it's, it's wild to think about. And I don't, you know... a phrase that I use a lot, that I've taken to using a lot, even with my own kids, about something that I feel like just sits true with me, is that just, you know, hurt people hurt people.

(00:58:49) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(00:58:50) Regan Phillips: You know, and so I think that that's my only real explanation for a lot of, a lot of how we ended up here, is there's a lot of generational trauma, untreated trauma, and, and, and unidentified diagnoses and problems that could have been solved. And, you know, at some earlier stage, not having been resolved, not having been identified, and sort of bleeding into the next generation in different and clearly very harmful ways. So in many ways, I think that there's, you know, it's, it's hard to imagine how, how we get here. But I also think that in my heart, I think at the core of it is, is just an inability to heal. Some of the, the, the wounds that were inflicted upon others. And then kind of, I think if you don't examine your life, and you don't examine your trauma, and you don't examine how you got here, and you're not empowered or taught or capable of doing that for any number of reasons, you kind of repeat what you experienced. That's, I think, the human tendency.

(01:00:04) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:00:04) Regan Phillips: And so good, bad or indifferent, you know. And I think that, you know, as great a parent as I think I am, I'm sure my kids are going to end up on a couch someday talking about something. I hope that they're on a couch someday. The things that they're talking about are probably, ironically, not even the things that I know that I'm, you know, probably screwing up. Right? We all screw some things up, but you have to be willing to examine it. You have to be willing to, to, to, to want to do better. And I just think that there are a lot of folks that, that, that haven't done that work.

(01:00:32) Justin McMillen: And so unless they end up in CASA... I mean, really, I was picturing in my head, I'm super visual, and I was just imagining this downward spiral, right? Going from family to family. And then somehow, you know, you guys get involved, and then you're pulling as much of it out of that as possible, right? And so then suddenly somebody now is having kids, and they're like, you know, I was, I was a ward of the state, or how do they say it?

(01:00:56) Regan Phillips: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:00:57) Justin McMillen: What's the right way?

(01:00:59) Regan Phillips: There's... I mean, you can say ward of the state, but if we're talking specifically about children that have been, that are in foster care, it's dependents. They're dependents, dependent on the state.

(01:01:07) Justin McMillen: Yeah. You know, I didn't even have my... my parents weren't there. Like, I... the best people, the most positive people I had in my life were these people that would show up. And this one woman that stayed with me for, you know, three years, watched me and helped me get into college. And, you know, I still talk to her to this day. And, you know, now I have kids, and, you know, I'm not going to do it like my dad did, kind of a thing. That's, that's what you're doing.

(01:01:30) Regan Phillips: Yeah, yeah. And I can't tell you how many of our volunteers... you know, I just was at a swearing-in yesterday. We do swearing-ins of new groups of volunteers every couple of weeks. And I'll ask, depending on how large the group is, you know, what, what brought you here? What's your why? And so many of them, you know, experienced something traumatic, or something traumatic, you know, near and dear to them that they observed, or, you know... I mean, I just, I feel like there's a real interest in, in, in doing better for the next generation. And so, yeah, in some respects, I don't know that I necessarily even fault all the parents whose, whose children have wound up in these circumstances. I mean, there are some exceptions, as there are to everything. There are some. But I don't even know that I would characterize it as all evil, or, you know...

(01:02:23) Justin McMillen: I'll ask you that. Like, have you, do you feel... and this gets, you know, you don't have to share this either. But, like, I imagine if evil is going to exist, it's going to be in a room like that. Like, do you, do you feel like evil exists, and you've seen it?

(01:02:41) Regan Phillips: 100%. Yeah, yeah, I have seen it. But I would say that I think there's, you know, I'm... nothing is quite so binary, that is all or nothing, right? Like, I've seen it. I just don't think that it is the overwhelming majority of what's going on there.

(01:02:58) Justin McMillen: I just think for most of the cases it's a lot of mental health and drug addiction.

(01:03:03) Regan Phillips: Yeah. Yeah, it really is. And listen, these are big problems, and you still have to be willing to, to receive treatment, to seek treatment, to participate in treatment. So, I mean, these are all choices that we make, right, on some level. But it's not, it's not stemming from an evil place, what's happening to these kids, you know.

(01:03:21) Justin McMillen: Are you familiar with the ACE scores, adverse childhood experiences?

(01:03:25) Regan Phillips: Yeah. So, I mean, you know, we've all got them. Everybody. You don't have to be in foster care to have one of those. Everyone has them. But, you know, what's happening here is, is, is certainly contributing to a higher ACE score, disproportionately, probably, for that population. And the number one antidote... now, kind of the corollary research to this adverse childhood experiences is trying to say, okay, well, we can't change this, but what can we do? The number one antidote is the presence of a safe, stable, consistent, reliable, positive adult figure in your life. That is the solution to ensure that you are, you know, kind of reducing the health risks associated with a high ACE score, and the emotional and mental health risks associated with a high ACE score, which are inevitable. You know, it's making sure that you have the right people in your life going forward and supporting you going forward. So, you know, I think there's challenges for these kids, whether it's evil, whether it's just the circumstances that they were dealt, a shitty hand that they got dealt. What I like to, to acknowledge, I think, is, is the beauty in the fact that that doesn't have to be the end of the story. That we can change the story, we can change the way the story ends. And, and I just think it's so remarkable that there are so many people, and I know that there are more than, than we've captured at CASA thus far.

(01:04:48) Regan Phillips: But there are so many people that are willing to say, whatever my circumstances were, good, bad or indifferent, I'm, I want to be a part of changing someone's, you know, ending.

(01:04:57) Justin McMillen: I want to... there's a person I really want to connect you to. I don't know if... you guys are probably both so busy, you won't have time to talk to each other. But there's this guy that I met. I've been talking to him quite a bit. He's, he was a former head of LA County Mental Health. And he, he wrote a paper that I can't say the name of, because it's getting... it's under peer review. But it has to do with... one of the things that it says in the paper is that if you look at your life and look at, you know, the people that made the biggest difference, it's not some clinician, it's not this. It's somebody who showed up and that reminded you that you matter. That's it.

(01:05:32) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:05:33) Justin McMillen: And everything you're saying echoes it. I wish... I want his permission to give you this paper, because it literally is, like, exactly. And it's nice that it's got so many studies that are related to this idea, that the people who show up... and that we need to figure out a way to do that on a larger scale, because people are lonely and sad, and it's only going to get worse.

(01:05:54) Regan Phillips: Yeah. And I think, listen, it's complicated. The legal system is complicated. The circumstances and the treatment for these families and children is complicated. The research that's gone into trying to understand it, all complicated. Even talking about CASA, court appointed special advocates, and our mission statement, it's not, it's not, it doesn't roll off the tongue. Right? The messaging is tricky. But if we could have an acronym that's just caring adults change lives, that's it.

(01:06:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah, it's, it's not that tricky. It's not that complicated. You just nailed it.

(01:06:25) Regan Phillips: Yeah, yeah. That's it. That's all it is. And it's as true for these kids... It doesn't sound like... it's CACL. And I know the acronym doesn't work. I wish it did, but, but it honestly...

(01:06:33) Justin McMillen: Because that's exactly what you're talking about. And there are so many people out there that would, that have a lot of love in them, that are actually lonely too. They want to do something to help somebody else.

(01:06:46) Regan Phillips: Yes, yes, yes. Nobody feels bad when they're doing something in service of someone else. So, you know, even if you're not seeing the outcome that you are, you know, that you, that you want immediately with these kids, even if you're, you know, experiencing the inevitable frustrations that are, that exist when you're working with a system as complicated as the court system and the foster care system. But, I mean, just, just showing up, just knowing that, you know, you're planting seeds. That's what we're doing all over town, CASA of Orange County. We're, we're planting seeds that, you know, hopefully someday, in some capacity, you may think about, this is a moment in your life where you can devote some time and do something meaningful and change a life. And when that time is right, sadly, I'm confident that we will still be here, because this need is not going away.

(01:07:34) Justin McMillen: What is the... when you said background, what, what kind of things disqualify somebody indefinitely? And what, what are... are there... Can you go into that? Just because I do imagine people listening to this are thinking, I'd like to do that, but...

(01:07:46) Regan Phillips: Sure.

(01:07:47) Justin McMillen: Would I qualify? I know 30 hours... We talked about training and...

(01:07:51) Regan Phillips: Yeah, yeah. And I want to be careful around some of this messaging, because I may not have all of the circumstances correctly, but I know, for instance, you know, if you had an experience in the foster care system as a child, it's going to come up in your interview. We're going to talk about that. We want to make sure that if you've had some pretty traumatic stuff going on, that you're in a good, healthy place to, to, to do this work. If you were a parent or somebody who had a child removed from your care, that's going to raise some flags, for sure. If you've got some kind of a, you know, a conviction of some kind, I think there are, you know, there are timelines in place. I want to say, for DUIs, it's like a five year look back.

(01:08:35) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:08:36) Regan Phillips: Right? So there are, there are definitely some things that are going to pop up as areas for discussion.

(01:08:42) Justin McMillen: Felonies, you know, certainly, if, especially if it was certain crimes...

(01:08:47) Regan Phillips: Certain crimes, violent, violent crimes, crimes against children, sexual nature.

(01:08:52) Justin McMillen: Yes.

(01:08:53) Regan Phillips: Some of those are going to be...

(01:08:55) Justin McMillen: Looking for things that would make the person, make, produce a potential negative outcome for the, the kid.

(01:09:01) Regan Phillips: 100%, obviously. Yes.

(01:09:02) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we work with a lot of people who have never done anything like... we treat, you know, thousands of people. And I can imagine some of them wanting to do something like this, that, that don't have a felon... felony. They don't have any kind of violent history. Maybe they have a DUI in their past, maybe a possession charge. Would that be possible for somebody like that?

(01:09:24) Regan Phillips: Of course. There are, there are... I mean, listen, that, that may not be the reason why they would self-select out or be, you know, not the right fit. There's any number of things that could come up. But I think that there are very... all of those things, of course... there are very few things that are going to come across our desk as an absolute, this is not...

(01:09:47) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(01:09:48) Regan Phillips: This is not going to work. We're, we're willing and capable of working with just about anybody. We may ask that you come back at a later time, given, you know, kind of some of the timelines of some of these things. But it's very rare.

(01:10:03) Justin McMillen: [...] testing for people?

(01:10:05) Regan Phillips: No, we don't. I mean, we, I would say through the training process and some of the discussions and questions that are explored through that, maybe some, some is... some things are revealed, or, you know, but no, not specifically.

(01:10:21) Justin McMillen: Got it. I imagine that if you had people that are good at vetting folks like that, they know, they're just like, this guy, past all the nuts and bolts, or gal, and I could just tell you, this is, she's, this person is definitely somebody who's going to be really good at this work.

(01:10:41) Regan Phillips: And our training is so spectacular. I actually also just think that even if it doesn't end up working out, if the volunteer self-selects out or they're not the right fit for us, I, I... more or less, they're going to know that at the front end. But to the extent that they go through training, I just, I feel like we're producing better humans as a result of having gone through some of that training.

(01:11:04) Justin McMillen: Sure.

(01:11:06) Regan Phillips: Because there's something for everybody to learn, I think, about themselves. And I think it's, for many people, maybe the first, you know, opportunity they've had to really examine their own traumatic backgrounds, or how that, you know, might overlap or trigger something for them in connecting with these kids or these circumstances. So, yeah, I do think that it's a, it's a remarkable opportunity to, I think, reflect a bit on your, on your own stuff.

(01:11:36) Justin McMillen: And it's not the same, but kind of like somebody's going to do, like, a yoga teacher training to become a yoga teacher. But it's like this very big self-reflection moment. They don't necessarily go teach it, but they're like, this was really good for me.

(01:11:48) Regan Phillips: Like, yes.

(01:11:50) Justin McMillen: I really got a chance to look at who I am and how I see the world. And not all yoga things are like that, but I know some, some are really like...

(01:11:59) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:12:00) Justin McMillen: As far as the, the country, like, the state of how we interact and see children...

(01:12:06) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:12:07) Justin McMillen: Culturally, what do you think about that in terms of right now? Like, are we holding children in the right space, as a culture, in the United States right now? Are we, do we consider them enough? Are we doing enough?

(01:12:23) Regan Phillips: You know, there's a, there's a quote that I love, and I don't want to botch it, and I can't remember who said it. Maybe it's like a... Proverb, I can't remember. But it's something about, you can tell about, you can learn so much about a culture or a people by the way that they treat their children. Right? I'm going to find it after this and regret that I didn't memorize it better. But, and I just, I think if you look at things that way, which I think is a beautiful... to me, a beautiful way of, of, of, of examining the importance of children in any culture, in any, in any civilization, I don't think that we're doing a great job. I don't, you know, I think that there's... You know, I, again, I think if I'm zooming out as, as, as you said, I...

(01:13:34) Regan Phillips: No, I don't think that we are. I really don't. I think that there are, you know, and this gets complicated, probably taking it even outside the realm of, of, of my work at CASA, but prioritizing the safety and well-being of children in general, in places where, you know, they, they're, they're spending their time. In this day and age, when you're sending your kids to school and you're worried about, you know, the shootings and things like that, I just, it's, it's... as a parent, I, you know, it's, that's, that's hard to wrap your head around. And I, I, I don't know what the answers are to some of these problems, but I, I do think that... and I think that, you know, if you're looking at the foster care lens of it all, listen, I think the system was created for, you know, fairly benevolent origins. You know, I mean, we want to create a place for children to, to be safe and to, and to escape a, you know, or to be removed from a circumstance that is objectively unsafe. But I just think that we are...

(01:14:46) Regan Phillips: We're not doing well enough. We're not doing this right. And, and the fact that there hasn't been enough, or substantial, change in how that, that, that system runs over such a long period of time feels really hard for me. Certainly there have been small changes and advancements, and I think education around the impact of trauma and things that we could be doing to help support and wrap services around these children and families to avoid these things in the first place. There's been, I think, some, some advances there. But at the end of the day... yeah, I don't know. Some of these are problems that are really, really convoluted and difficult to solve.

(01:15:31) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Yeah, I think about this all the time with, you know... I can't help but, I'm like a root cause kind of guy.

(01:15:38) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:15:39) Justin McMillen: And so, yeah, the work we do, you see so many sick people that are so sick, I mean...

(01:15:45) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:15:46) Justin McMillen: And then you ask, like, I... it always moves to really big questions, right? Which is, how did we get here?

(01:15:53) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(01:15:54) Justin McMillen: As a people, right? Like the, the country, the culture of the United States. And then I look at the way that we, the way we hold children culturally, I think is really, we're really falling short.

(01:16:05) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(01:16:06) Justin McMillen: So, and then I see you as working in one piece of that, like an extreme version of that, where it's gone the worst.

(01:16:12) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:16:13) Justin McMillen: But then you think about everything.

(01:16:15) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:16:16) Justin McMillen: And it's like, if we don't start looking at our kids and figuring out a way to hold them in the highest regard, and everything around how they're educated, cared for, they have to be the sacred thing of our...

(01:16:26) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(01:16:27) Justin McMillen: Culture, or the whole country is going to collapse.

(01:16:29) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:16:31) Justin McMillen: Because that is the next generation.

(01:16:33) Regan Phillips: Yes, yes.

(01:16:34) Justin McMillen: Yeah. The fact that you guys... not that you're complaining about it, but the fact that you guys can't, aren't easily funded. The fact that there's not more people volunteering than, you know... I think it's a, it's just a, an echo of where we're at, because this stuff should be so obvious to me. It's obvious to me.

(01:16:53) Regan Phillips: Yes, it's obvious to me as well. And I, I really appreciate your, your perspective and thoughts on this. I mean, and the prioritization of children. I think that people talk about it. It sounds like a good idea, but I think sometimes, you know, the action isn't, you know, doesn't, doesn't look quite the same. And I think that there's been a lot of challenges. I mean, you know, you look at some of these organizations, our model is inherently, you know, human centered, right? It's really focused on, on, on creating that relationship with the child. But, you know, we have to be so careful to guard against, you know, those who would be trying to take advantage of an opportunity like this to cause harm to a child. Right? So, it's one of the reasons why that, that, that level of training and that level of, you know, vetting is so important to us, because, you know, we don't exist without these volunteers. But our ultimate duty is to protect, you know, the best interests of these children and to make sure that they're safe. And, I mean, I will tell you, it took me about a year in the job to stop thinking about all of the potential, you know, liability and risk that was kind of rampant around us.

(01:18:08) Regan Phillips: But if you don't suspend, you know, some of those, those thoughts for a minute, these kids would never have these experiences. They'd never be able to have those connections. So, but these are the, you know, the preliminary thoughts around, what is the harm that's going to happen to these children if we, if we do these things? Because there seems to be such a level of comfort or ambivalence around causing harm to children for, for many people. And it's just, again, I don't, I don't know why. I don't know where that comes from. I don't know what the origin of it is. The only thing I can, I can go back to is that there is this general healing, or reckoning, understanding that people need to invest in with themselves, with their generational trauma, to, to, in order to, to do right by these kids.

(01:19:01) Regan Phillips: You can... anybody can have a kid. There's no... you got to take a test to get a driver's license. But to have a child, I mean, there's, there's no, there's, there's, there's, there's nothing that's coming along with that. And if you haven't done some work, and you aren't actively trying to understand and care about how you're going to raise this beautiful creature, and, and, and what you're... it's, it's just, it's, it's, it's really sad, and frankly so disappointing, to see how, how often children can become kind of the casualty of, of someone else's circumstances.

(01:19:38) Justin McMillen: I see it. I see it. And like I said, I think you're dealing with the most extreme side of that. I'm not surprised to hear that it's in every zip code. And I think there's, it's, it's a, there's a bigger picture conversation around the fact that maybe we've stopped holding children in a way that we need to as a culture. It's like culture. It's like the American way.

(01:20:03) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:20:04) Justin McMillen: These are things we have to stop and examine. I think somehow we're all moving so damn fast, I don't know if we're ever going to stop and go, what are we doing here? Like, what are we doing?

(01:20:14) Regan Phillips: Certainly one of the most powerful things we could do as a country is to invest in our children and schools.

(01:20:21) Justin McMillen: Which should never be... there should never be a moment where an organization like yours doesn't have the resources it needs to function. Anybody that wants to help support should be able to support. So this is good. How do you... you don't have to tell me the age of your kids, but are they old enough to know what you do?

(01:20:39) Regan Phillips: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, they are. 18, 16 and 11.

(01:20:42) Justin McMillen: Okay. Yeah. So how did they, how do they see mom in all of this?

(01:20:47) Regan Phillips: Oh, I don't know. I think my, my oldest, my daughter is in her first year of college, and she's, she's had a little bit more, maybe, frontline exposure to some, some things, volunteering. Not with the children. You have to be over 21 to volunteer and have interaction with the children, but at different events and things. And she started a club at her high school that my son now has continued, to, to try to raise awareness. And yeah, I don't know, I think they do know, they do know, but, but, but knowing and understanding are two different things. And I think sometimes, you know, it's, it's when you leave and have exposure to more life and more circumstances that are really different from what you know, what's in your backyard and what's in your, your home, that you start to kind of see things a little bit differently. So I can kind of see some of that happening for her now that she's away at her first year at school. Kind of the appreciation, the understanding, the depth of, of what this, this means, because of other things that you've been exposed to and other people that you're meeting. But yeah. No, I think, I think by and large, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm mom. That's not... I'm not, I'm not cool.

(01:22:05) Justin McMillen: I'm not. None of us are.

(01:22:07) Regan Phillips: But the humility is real.

(01:22:09) Justin McMillen: Yeah, but, you know, when they get older, and they, the kids always get wiser as they get older, right? Like, they're wise when they're young, maybe they get unwise for a little while.

(01:22:19) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(01:22:20) Justin McMillen: Yeah. Back then, they're going to say, my mother was, like, leading a team of people that were helping all these kids that had no ability to help themselves, and that's a big deal.

(01:22:30) Regan Phillips: I certainly hope so. I will tell you that in taking this, this position that I did, like I said, 11 years ago, was a major crossroads for me. And it was shortly after my mother passed away. This kind of opportunity had been coming around, circling around in a few different ways, that I wasn't out soliciting, but it kind of kept coming back to me. And I just felt like, I feel like there's something here for me that I need to explore and check out. And I, and I kind of made a two year commitment to, to try it and, and see what that would look like. And I think I reconciled in my own mind that, you know, if I'm going to be spending this much time away from my kids, it's got to be for something that feels really deeply meaningful, and for something that maybe not now, but one day they would understand would be really important. So all of those things certainly were in my mind in making the decision. You know, again, this was a two year experiment. It's been over 11 years. And I think that once you know about this, this, this epidemic, this, this, this problem in our community, and the opportunity that you have to, to be involved in, in the solution, you can't unknow it.

(01:23:45) Regan Phillips: I've served in some capacity or another with this organization now for 25 years, whether it's been in New York as an intern, or here as a, you know, kind of a, a constituent, as an attorney working alongside. I served on the board before I came in to work on the, as part of the staff, and ultimately lead the organization. I just think it's so powerful. I think it's so, it's such a beautiful concept that is both gritty and, and, you know, just lovely. Just truly an act of love, an outward, you know, kind of manifestation of, of that, in terms of the time and, and willingness to, to, to look at what's happening to these kids and show up for them. So I just, I think it's such a beautiful thing. And yeah, and the reasons I've stayed are, again, they, they feel like they change all the time. The reasons I, I've stayed have not necessarily been the reasons that brought me here. I've really appreciated learning about, you know, running a business. I mean, we're a nonprofit, but we are a business like any other. We're a business with feeling. This is what I tell people.

(01:24:57) Justin McMillen: Yeah.

(01:24:58) Regan Phillips: So, you know, we are learning the, the how to do that, how to lead, how to work with an incredible team of staff. And, you know, that I learn from every, every day. Getting the right people in the right positions and moving forward to solve new problems and to grow our opportunities to make a difference. It's just, it's, it's hard. I'm not going to say it's not hard, and there haven't been really hard moments, but it is absolutely rewarding. So I think, you know, yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm happy with the decisions that I've made that have landed me here. And I feel proud of what we've accomplished as an organization. And I, I, I feel good about whatever it is that my children ultimately end up thinking about me and my, and my chosen line of work. They're going to think whatever they want to think, as I, as I have come to learn. But I, I think the more they get to know about what it is... I, I feel good about the decisions I've made and where we're at, and I, I hope it empowers them to make thoughtful decisions about how they want to make a difference in the world, whatever it is that they end up doing.

(01:26:10) Justin McMillen: When they learn from watching us.

(01:26:12) Regan Phillips: Right.

(01:26:13) Justin McMillen: And it's like, they grew up in a house filled with meaning, even when it was hard for mom, or she was gone, or... there's so much meaning. It's like, it's undeniable. I don't know you, but just sitting here, it's clear that your life is just dripping with meaning. Which doesn't mean it's always good. It doesn't mean it's happy, doesn't mean... you know, I think at the end of the day, meaning is really what it's about. It's like, how much substance and meaning can you even pull from life?

(01:26:39) Regan Phillips: Yes.

(01:26:40) Justin McMillen: The happiness comes and goes.

(01:26:42) Regan Phillips: Yeah.

(01:26:43) Justin McMillen: All these other things. So, yes. This has been really, really great. I, I appreciate you taking the time.

(01:26:49) Regan Phillips: Yeah. I appreciate you inviting me to be a part of it, and, and asking. So thank you.

(01:26:53) Justin McMillen: Yeah. And I hope that we get to see each other again.

(01:26:57) Regan Phillips: I do too. Thank you.

(01:26:58) Justin McMillen: Regan, thank you.